Legion World Forums LEGION OUTPOST Mission Monitor Board Coming Out

Belief system is part of the larger concern of identity, cleome. To say people should or should not believe in something is like saying someone should or should not be gay or like trying to force someone born into a certain culture to conform to a different one (as was horribly done to members of Native American nations for decades).

If one chooses to believe in something else or to adopt a different culture, that's another matter. (I don't think it's possible to choose to be or not be gay, but that hasn't stopped some from arguing that sexual orientation is a choice.)

The larger sense of identity is what I was going for.

(Incidentally, my FB friend convinced me that there is a difference between creationists who reject the evidence of evolution and believers of a different stripe. I think she is correct, but telling parents not to raise their children in accordance with their beliefs still seems wonky to me.)

I suppose it would be one thing for parents to raise their children as such, and another for them to force their children to stick to such a belief system even when they're old enough to go exploring other systems. It DOES make sense to me that parents should be allowed to expose their children to their own belief systems. For good or for bad, it's a fundamental part of identity. Like with me - I grew up immersed in Chinese superstition, feng shui, ancestor "worship" (well not exactly worship, but we burn paper money for them every Ghost Month), and so on. It's very automatic now, but I'm hardly brainwashed nor forced to observe these.

Thanks, Ibby.

I was raised semi-Catholic, meaning we didn't belong to a particular church but observed Catholic traditions and subscribed to its overall belief system.

Although I later adopted different traditions and a much broader worldview, I would never dismiss the positive aspects of my faith upbringing: respect and concern for others, moderation, belief in a higher power.

Likewise, creationists can impart positive, life-affirming messages to their children. It is only when they insist their views be accepted by others that things get complicated.

Hear, hear, HWW. It can be argued that being raised in a certain belief system might make it hard to open up to new ideas, but so could being born with a certain sexual orientation, or of a certain race, or in a certain country. We can't choose who our parents are, after all

I have a friend who... well, I don't really know how to classify her, but she dismisses the Roman Catholic faith because of the prevalance of statues, paintings and other images of Jesus, Mother Mary etc. According to her beliefs, we're not supposed to do that. Nor are we supposed to observe any rituals that aren't specifically stated in the Bible.

Which brings to mind the tensions between the Sunni and Shia Muslims. Just goes to show how complicated maters of faith really can be.

Well, I don't think he woke up that morning planning to talk about his religious beliefs at work. And he didn't bring up the subject for the rest of the assignment.

I think every gay person will recognize the feeling I had in this story.


We were having a little social gathering in our office. One of the directors had just come back from a meeting regarding the drug courts (courts specifically set up to handle drug possession cases - focusing on rehab rather than punishment) One of the issues was whether the state could require someone to attend a 12 step AA or NA program due to their use of a "higher power". Would this be a state endorsement of religion. I did mention that I heard there were secular or atheist 12 step meeting. The director then said "The use of a "Higher power" would offend me because I am an atheist."

I didn't say anything, but inside I was like "Oh Boy!"

I imagine (non-lawyer here) that saying "a recovery program such as AA/NA or (the name of a non-religious group with similar ends)" would be acceptable to most parties.

First, I don't think there are that many secular recovery programs, especially as compared to AA/NA. So, would there truly be a choice in the matter, especially if say the person lived in a more rural area where there was no secular recovery program?


Pragmatically, I would say that such a wording is what would be acceptable.

I attended Al-Anon for some time (which is a support program for survivors/relatives/spouses of alcohol abusers), it uses the same 12 step program as AA as a means to recovery. As an atheist I had a difficult time with the higher power concept as well. It was explained to me in a few different ways:

1) The "Higher Power" is not necessarily a "god" or any other religious icon, but rather an acceptance of a spiritual aspect to life, and the idea that there are forces beyond one's immediate control (Hence the serenity "prayer" asking for help changing the things your can, accepting those you can't and learning to tell the difference).

2) One of the Al-Anon tenants is "Take want you need and leave the rest", with the principle being that as long as you are working earnestly toward recovery, slavish devotion to dogma is unnecessary (I am not sure if the same principle applies to AA, but I somehow doubt it).

I eventually left the program for various reasons, but I wouldn't dissuade other atheists from trying it with an open mind, as I did find some help there (initially at least).

Okay. I understand better now.

I had a dear friend many years ago, with whom I unfortunately lost contact. She was active in AA and identified as an atheist. I asked her how she dealt with the religious references used in AA. She told me that she would look around the room and think about the love and positivity she felt from the others, which was how she thought of a higher power".

She was very supportive of me in my religious beliefs because she said it gave me a community and purpose.

I'll have to see if I can reconnect with her. I really liked and respected her.

An AA group meets on my church's campus. From my experience with them and other recovering friends, I would suspect Rocky's friend's "definition" is the most prevalent, concrete one, and would be true whether or not a member of AA believes in a divine higher being or force. The power of a group of people who have hit bottom and survived can be sustaining and even transforming.

I just re-read this whole thread. It's one of my favorites.

I now know that 3 of my co-workers are atheists

I'm coming out.

I don't have a lot of "personal" friends. IE: people that I want to physically spend time with in "real" life.

I find the thought exhausting. Honestly.

I'm a natural loner. No, I'm not gonna be on the news with people saying "He was a quiet guy, didn't really know him..." attached to some atrocity. I just find the thought of constantly having to censor what I say and do to keep from offending people tiresome. I like quiet. I like doing what I want to do when I can do it, it's free-ing to me. I like online better because I can do as little or as much as I like.

Selfish? probably. But I'm honest enough to know that a little goes a long way with me. I love my wife and son and even then there are times when I just want to be alone and have a little time to myself.

I truly am one of those people that if they won the lottery could have a get together with friends and family, spread the love and bucks, and then disappear on a desert island and not need to see them again for years.

My wife handles the gregariousness for the two of us.

Rickshaw,

Your post makes me want to gather all the people you know into one place and to have you in another place entirely.

I'm pretty much a loner too. I don't fear offending people, but I do feel more comfortable by myself.

I don't fear it. I just don't like it all that much. Friends are something more valuable to me than money or fortune, so I take more care. That's exhausting. Now I gotta go lie down I'm so ti'ahd.

As to the atheism...okay. I believe in leaving others to believe as they wish, with the codicil's that they do no harm to others.

I was getting some stuff from a truck stop the other day and the amount came up to $6.67. I looked at the lady behind the counter and made a joke that "Whew, one cent less and I would have been evil."

She said "Oh, I know. I had a customer come up with $6.66 the other day and wouldn't say it. I had our maintenance man punch the number in and tell her what it was. I wouldn't even say it."

Now, I was raised Pentecostal Holiness, and a more self righteous bunch you wont run across in that old group, but some things are just a tad too much.

That said, of all the cussing I do, and I pride myself on being inventive, I don't say G**damn. Nor do I use other religious names for cussing. It's not that I'm scared, just that I show a little respect.

I have been know to make sailors go "jeez, man, really?", but I don't do some things. That's one. A matter of respect to others by me.

Wow
This is an intense, remarkably vulnerable thread
Makes me proud to be amongst all the other Legionnaires here

So two things happened yesterday.

First I was at the library returning the book "The Atheist Muslim" by Ali Rizvi (a really good book. I recommend it) The Librarian looked at it and was confused by the title having both "Atheist" and "Muslim" on it. I tried to explain that the author had been a muslim but was now an atheist. From what she said, it seems like she thought atheists believe in God but not religion. I didn't take the time to tell her otherwise.

Later that day I went to a holiday gathering at the bar at the Parker House. The group consisted of a couple of attorneys and 2 of the experts that testify for the defense in a sex offender commitment trial. Some people I knew from emailing them in the course of my work. Anyway, the conversation turned towards a religious bent. One person then asked me "What is your religion?" I responded without hesitation "I was raised Catholic, but I am an atheist." It took one of the attorneys that I email with a little aback, but beyond that everything was OK.

I mention this last part because I was proud of myself for being able to say that I was an atheist without flinching.

It really is hard to say that out loud in a public setting. I don't believe I ever have. I mean, technically I consider myself more agnostic than atheist, but there isn't a huge difference. I know my relatives would be aghast if I ever admitted it to them. They're so Southern Baptist-entrenched that they's probably consider me a devil-worshipper.

I'm often tempted to say "I'm a recovering Catholic," but I don't want to put off people who have positive experiences with Catholicism. Mine just weren't so.

Religion and spirituality are difficult and highly personal topics. As human beings, we want to make things simple: cut and dried, black and white, you're either in or you're out. I've spent most of my life being "out" even when I tried to be "in." As a result, I see much value in religion and spirituality, but I resist the impulse to wedge them into absolutism ("There is only one way, and it's my way!"). The most difficult aspect of life for me is not knowing but continuing to hope and believe.

Perhaps that makes me a Christian Agnostic.

I just re-read this thread. What a great thread and how great all the people on it are.

I completely agree. Thanks for bumping it up, Quis.

Great to see you again, Quislet.

Ironically, so much time has passed since this thread began that I've reverted back to calling myself an Agnostic.

I've seen so much absolutely awful behavior from certain high-profile Atheists in other spaces. (Including one notorious local "activist" who openly cavorts with literal White Supremacists and gleefully helps to drum up hate crimes against marginalized groups.) Watching these folks made me realize that maybe I needed a less-charged label for myself.

You?ll always be a less charged atheist to me.

(Seriously, what you call yourself is fine by me. Just don?t call me late for supper)