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LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I almost wish I didn't find it, because I am absolutely disgusted with this version of Imra.
I know there are people that enjoy this series, and I don't want to take that enjoyment away. However, Bendis seems to write one kind of telepath, and that's an invasive manipulator. He wrote teen Jean Grey the exact same way when he was on X-Men.
The whole 'in some cultures it's manipulative, in others it's a blessing' is particularly gross to me. It seems like an attempt to handwave away the invasiveness of whatever she's been doing. I can try to overlook some of the other changes in the Legion's personality, but I really can't overlook this one.
Last edited by Supragirl; 01/15/21 03:18 PM.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I said I wasn't commenting on this series anymore, but for this I'm making an exception because screw it. I already have COVID and I need to blow off some steam.
I was always afraid it'd be revealed Imra "suggested" her relationship with Jon, but this is still disgusting because it undermines the Legion seeking Jon even more than it already was. I don't know what's worse, that the Legion had been practically deifying Jon when he hadn't DONE anything, to them only recruiting Jon because Imra MADE them.
Last edited by Sarcasm Kid; 01/15/21 03:34 PM.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I know there are people that enjoy this series, and I don't want to take that enjoyment away. However, Bendis seems to write one kind of telepath, and that's an invasive manipulator. He wrote teen Jean Grey the exact same way when he was on X-Men.
The whole 'in some cultures it's manipulative, in others it's a blessing' is particularly gross to me. It seems like an attempt to handwave away the invasiveness of whatever she's been doing. I can try to overlook some of the other changes in the Legion's personality, but I really can't overlook this one. "Uses her powers to manipulate her fellow members" is a pretty standard Imra story, but it's traditionally done with noble intentions and as something that provides character growth as she learns a lesson from it (Zaryan the Conqueror, Legion Lost). Turning it into something she does for mostly selfish reasons and with veneer of justifying it via cultural relativism is definitely annoying.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Unseen, not unheard
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although I dislike the idea of invasive telepaths, Imra's dialogue makes it seem - to me - that she wasn't consciously aware of what she was doing. If she shows enough remorse, I can deal with that... reminds me of Reboot Imra, she animated a comatose Cosmic Boy for a while...
that explosion doesn't look good. I wonder if these flight rings have an environmental protection function too...
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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that explosion doesn't look good. I wonder if these flight rings have an environmental protection function too... We know not everyone survives into Future State. I wonder if we'll see actual deaths this issue, or if they'll occur in-between?
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Legionnaire!
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although I dislike the idea of invasive telepaths, Imra's dialogue makes it seem - to me - that she wasn't consciously aware of what she was doing. If she shows enough remorse, I can deal with that... reminds me of Reboot Imra, she animated a comatose Cosmic Boy for a while...
that explosion doesn't look good. I wonder if these flight rings have an environmental protection function too... Yeah, just from these pages it doesn't seem like she's consciously manipulating people so much as saying that Titanians can be manipulative without even trying to because they interact with one another psionically in a way that other races don't have the mental strength/training to be able to defend against (or probably even be aware of). It's actually an interesting idea imo, it gives her a subplot to explore without compromising her character. She's still a good person, she just needs to learn how to tone down some things when she's interacting with offworlders. I actually wish they did more of this kinda stuff with Legionnaires who come from worlds where everyone shares their powers. There was a scene in Levitz's last series where Phantom Girl phased into Shady's room while Shady and Earth-Man were in bed because coming from a world where there are no barriers she has a different understanding of privacy, and in that Subs special in the 80s they showed that Bismoll has a Gluttony Patrol (which was played for laughs but makes sense on a world where anyone could just eat your house if they were so inclined), but aside from that I am not coming up with a lot of other examples. Especially if we're showing the Legion in their early days, I would like to see stuff like Cos being frustrated that there's so much plastic everywhere or Cham's reaction to the beauty industry and the way members of society are pressured to look a certain way for example - stuff that the Legion would adjust to as they get older but which would probably be a steep learning curve for them to begin with. I think it's fair to say that moving from a society of telepaths to one where telepaths are the minority would definitely be a good example of that. (Having said that, while the pages here aren't TOO bad, I just can't deal with Bendis dialogue....I don't particularly like a lot of his other writing quirks either, but the dialogue is the one thing that prevents me from being able to get invested in anything he writes no matter how interested I am in the premise or how pretty the art is)
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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SIGH , well folks I think after this issues comes out this week we will all be able to shake hands and say " Nice try but,............... next!"
Here's to a new chapter of the Legion featuring Retroboot Part 2!
In the present
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Tempus Fugitive
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Imra thinks Jon is awesome, and unconsciously attempts to bring all her pals round into them all thinking he's great enough to be with too. That sounds common enough to me, to get a plus point, and connects up nicely with the time the two have spent together. (I'm ignoring any Erin linked Stalker Lass connections in wondering if her powers are also influencing Jon ) Imra worries that her power may have been an influence. But there is a bold on the "may". The UP was formed on the back of Jon's words. He is considered to be a legend. The others may have been all too happy to go with his recruitment this early in their formation, regardless of her powers. It's an interesting look at Imra's telepathic powers. We've seen her try not to invade the thoughts of others, but do so anyway, consciously or not. We've wondered about the extent of this in her interactions. In other boots, like Legion Lost, she has consciously manipulated the likes of Ultra Boy 9 as I see EDE has mentioned). If Legionnaires are not making it through this story, hopefully their departure will be a bit better than being blasted by a falling super villain while unconscious. Rogol Zarr has done nothing for me so far, so I'm hoping there's more to him than a Doomsday stand-in Just Because powered villain.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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although I dislike the idea of invasive telepaths, Imra's dialogue makes it seem - to me - that she wasn't consciously aware of what she was doing. If she shows enough remorse, I can deal with that... reminds me of Reboot Imra, she animated a comatose Cosmic Boy for a while... I think I would have less trouble with it if it wasn't a pattern in Bendis' writing when it comes to telepaths. He hasn't reached 'Jean Grey outs Iceman without consent' levels here, but it makes me uncomfortable knowing his history.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Interesting thoughts both ways. If Imra is aware of how she is affecting/influencing/manipulating others then from our moral perspective this is reprehensible. On the other hand the morality we live with is something that has developed over thousands of years in our environment and the morality in a race of telepaths is almost certainly going to be different. That doesn't make it right but different. If this is the case then it sounds like Imra is having a sudden face-palm moment of realising that what was acceptable in her environment may not be elsewhere.
On the third hand if Imra was not consciously aware that she was doing it because it is so natural then this is one of those growing moments we have seen in previous portrayals where she is learning some of those boundaries that she shouldn't cross.
Whichever her words indicate regret and remorse.
Finally they are only her thoughts. She could be wrong. The enthusiasm by the rest of the team for Jon's presence may be perfectly natural given his legendary status. Even in the other incarnations Clark Kent/Superboy was recruited quite early in his career and more because of what he would do later as Superman than what he had already done.
I have to agree though that I am finding the writing a bit clunky and the circle thing a bit forced. It sounds like the writer explaining "this is what I intended all along - see how it fits together" which if true is still clunky. Maybe it will sound better with the rest of the issue. A preview is not the whole story.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Devil's Advocate
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Let's remember something. As there is no tangible proof of telepathy in the real world, our morality regarding telepathy is entirely hypothetical. So Bendis is simply speculating on what telepathic morality would be if telepathy were widely known and scientifically observed. I know that's probably obvious to most of us, but I wanted to point it out anyway.
Watching television is not an activity.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Tempus Fugitive
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I knew you about to type that, by reading your mind just as your fingers reached for your keyboard.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Or, thoth, were you telepathically influencing Malvolio to type that?
"Everything about this is going to feel different." (Saturn Girl, Legion of Super-Heroes #1)
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I don't need there to actually be Borg to know that being assimilated to the Borg Collective would be a bad thing. A lot of moral knowledge is gained by considering hypothetical scenarios. That's one of the reasons reading/viewing fiction is often useful in building character, as it allows you to vicariously experience situations that don't actually occur and learn from them.
Telepaths "pushing" other people to do what they want seems obviously morally problematic, if only because it interferes with autonomy, which is pretty much a precondition for morality to begin with.
A society of telepaths in which everyone is "convincing" one another telepathically seems dangerously dystopian. We've seen indications in the origin issue that Imra disliked being part of the Titanian group mind or whatever (checks: they actually refer to it as a "collective", thus making my Borg analogy apt!), hence her desire to get off-planet and join what would become the Legion. But it also makes sense that having been part of that environment for so long, it would be difficult not to violate her fellow members minds in the same way, as she learns what it is to truly be an individual.
So, maybe they've combined her with Quislet in a way? Just a thought.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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So, maybe they've combined her with Quislet in a way? Just a thought. That actually sounds super interesting so based on Bendis being Bendis I'm gonna assume it won't be the case lol
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Now that I have finally read it and see how it ends, I am even more depressed about Future State and lack of information about this Legion's future.
I hope we see these guys (this version) again.
Last edited by Nightcrawler; 01/19/21 11:04 AM.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I am not entirely sure what I just read. I have even less of an idea of how this leads into Future State.
Tinya, Thom, and Jan all seem to have new powers. Nura?s abilities are also pretty confusing to me right now. It does seem Luornu has her Threeboot ability, though. ... which makes little sense of how she would end up being Duo Damsel in Future State, now that I think about it.
This entire run just feels... like a waste? Nothing really explained, no time given to a large chunk of the Legion. It just sort of exists to me.
Last edited by Supragirl; 01/19/21 07:13 AM.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I kind of agree with the Legionnaires that I'm surprised everything went as easily as it did. I really wasn't expecting the big, triumphant ending. And, yeah, considering what we've been told about Future State, it seems like it's going to be pretty jarring after this.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Tempus Fugitive
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Thoughts below...
v8 Issue 12
On our infodump page, Imra reveals that her telepathic powers stray into telepathic manipulation, particularly when the residents of Titan are particularly keen on an idea. Imra's powers have been a talking point across the various versions. This adds some interesting ideas into the published mix, not least of which relate to the free will of those in the cast. It would have been interesting to now go back to #1, and see instances where Imra has already unconsciously influenced those around her. As the scheduling of the book and its content has not been good, I'm not expecting to find any. But it would be a decent sign of some forethought and get some needed credits.
It's unfortunate that Imra's concerns haven't been discovered as part of the plot, and has to be part of some opening exposition. The Titanian mind manipulation seems to be why Imra partly joined the Legion. So she would find a way that Titanians and the rest of the UP could interact without one side getting their way, and the other side thinking what was a great idea that was. She's not doing too great a job of that, if she's manipulated the Legion into bringing Jon across time.
The circle that Bendis tells us is going on here, isn't nearly as deep as he thinks. That's something that applies to a number of things in the issue.
The big battle this issue was set up to deliver, was a big disappointment.
Rogol Zaar is prepared for Imra's telepathy... Because! No one has any injury in the battle that a little pick me up can't fix... Because! Doctor Fate returns...Because!
The Legion were shown to have been captured, in part, by a guy with a giant axe. The villain falls at great speed into the heart of their unconscious forms. While I don't particularly wish for a body count, the biggest casualty, as Imra brings them all round to fighting fitness, shouldn't be Laundry Lass faced with some costume sewing. Rogol can destroy as much comic book real estate as he likes, but has not gained any credibility in this story.
The team, unable to get away from appearing in group shots, pile into Rogol. They are doing pretty well, yet Gim throws the villain away, losing their tactical advantage. There was no reason for any regrouping. I'm not sure if Blok is supposed to be in one group shot. He was missing last issue, then pops up later in this as Mordru's slave. That lasts all of a panel or two as a threat.
Gim has just told us about the Horraz, but panels later we're supposed to be surprised by... The Horraz! Oh and Mordru. Can't forget Mordru. He's the reason why Bendis is telling us about there being layers to what's going on. It's a masterstroke. Well, it would be had criminal masterminds and their schemes not been a staple of comics for nearly a century. But thanks for pointing out there were layers anyway.
Why would Wildfire and Brin feel underappreciated in a group that was so recently formed? There must be a lot going on off panel.
The villains offer such little threat, in among some further group shots, that our heroes banter about how good they are, thank each other for being part of a pitched battle, and remark on how enjoyable the whole thing is. Rogol keeps bleating about having had 1000 years to prepare. But his allies are whisked away in a handy teleportation spell by the team's ACME mystic. Rogol himself is punched out by Lar and Kal in a panel that made me laugh out loud when it was used in Infinite Crisis. It's just as lame here, regardless of them adding a bit of superspeed into the punches.
Mordru boasts that he's had his revenge on the Legion, despite the group of heroes' resounding victory. Perhaps the Legion fall apart...Because! This would be in keeping with the rest of the book.
As Rogol gets shunted off to the phantom zone with not a whimper, complaint or a reason (it's enough that Mordru woke him up), there's some light banter and another splash page. The Gold Lantern subplot is about the only thing that progresses at a decent pace. Element Lad doesn't seem to understand his own powers, even as he says them out loud, being more Transmogrify Lad here.
We also learn that this damp squib of a story wasn't the Great Darkness. Premonitions of that are now pervasive in the team, although not to the extent that any of it is shared with the reader. Almost as if Bendis really doesn't know beyond the broadest strokes of it.
I can only hope that this was just one of those layers Bendis felt the need to tell us about. We can hopefully look back at it as one, rather bland battle scene, chapter in a much more interesting whole.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Beautiful summary and commentary, thothy, thank you.
And thanks all for sharing your thoughts.
I didn't bother to buy the book. Can anyone spoil the Gold Lantern subplot for me, please? I've been DYING to hear his origin, and I want to fall off my chair when I do!
Sarcasm aside, I did want this run to succeed. I still hope it returns after Future State to get a second chance at developing.
Last edited by Invisible Brainiac; 01/19/21 02:53 PM.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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On Gold Lantern:
So it turn out the Gold Lantern's ring isn't really a Lantern ring at all, and the Guardians are fake.
This isn't actually his still unrevealed awesome origin, though, since these facts were just discovered this issue.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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Wanderer
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Thoth makes some good points. I agree overall that this issue was disappointing, particularly in light of the improvement of the last couple of issues. A few more thoughts: I think perhaps Imra is a bit full of herself to blame the entire situation on herself.
Rogol Zarr looks even bigger than I remember him from Superman. He was always over-sized but now seems even more so. Perhaps he just continues to slowly grow over time. Also he has more cyborg parts than when we last saw him. Not that any of that matters to the story or Legion readers.
Imra using her "probe" to distract Rogol Zarr while the others recover (with an anti-sleep thought I guess) is a positive in terms of battle tactics. It is a bit overpowered. Got someone who has been knocked out? Imra can just wake them up with no nasty after-effects like concussion or anything and they will be raring to go. If bad guys want to beat the Legion they will have to do permanent damage or Imra will just get them up again.
I thought Gim's throwing RZ away actually made sense. The others had thrown him off-balance with their unexpected attack but giving everyone a moment makes a bit of sense to me. At least Colossal Boy (sorry Incredible Shrinking Man or whatever he calls himself) got to do more than be a big target - oh wait, next panel.
Imra's thoughts about the Legion stopping Mordru from his grand scheme and chasing him all over the galaxy would be a great description for a longer story instead of fairly easily defeating him once and doing a little look around for him. Maybe this is Imra's overblown view again or a reflection of a quick wrap-up.
Wildfire's comment about the rest of the legion not realising how great they are is a bit ambiguous. I first read it the same as Thoth that Wildfire and Timber Wolf are big-headed and think they are some of the Legion's greats, but on second read I thought the intention might be that Wildfire thinks the Legion doesn't realise how great the WHOLE LEGION is, which is a much better view but unfortunately poorly worded.
I chuckled at "How do you know that?" - "I'm Brainiac." - "I have got to stop asking you that." If the character was written with arrogance this would be unpleasant but he isn't so I like it.
Once again Lightning Lass appears twice in two different outfits with two different hair styles, blasting lightning in the first and lightning on her costume in the second. Who knows?
Mordu captured Cosmic Boy last issue but here he is fighting with the team again. Huh?
Karate Bomb? KARATE BOMB?
Wish we could have seen how White Witch, Dream Girl and Saturn Girl's powers combined as they had practiced, but no, Imra is too upset seeing Jon get knocked about, White Witch is unsure, and in the end others win the day.
Triplicate Girl appears to split into more bodies shifting across the spectrum as she does. Interesting. Maybe she just prefers the threesome?
Mon-El got to be heroic for a change, which doesn't make up for his whining. My overall impression is that this is a quick wrap-up to what was meant to be a lot longer story line but had to be suddenly tied up for editorial reasons. Rather ironic considering how we have been complaining about the slowness of Bendis plotting, and we still didn't get answers to most of our questions. Ryan Sook's art was beautiful as always, another reason why Future State is not as appealing to me. I hope this is not the end. Even if there have been many concerns about Bendis plotting and writing, I have still been glad to have the Legion in print again and there have been moments that have been a very enjoyable and fresh take on the Legion. Mileage will vary between people but I have found this iteration as a believable interpretation of the Legion. Did it have problems? Sure, but even the greats of Legion have had their off-periods like Levitz in volume 7. Was it some of the best? Again not in my opinion, but I am still glad to have read it and hope it continues.
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Re: LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #12 - Previews and Spoilers
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I'd forgot about the Cosmic Boy bit. Blok suddenly showing up as Mordru's slave seemd a bit weird as well. He'd been teleported into space last issue, and I really figured he'd take awhile in making it back. But apparently Mordru decided to use him for some reason? His line at the end ("Hey! This is Blok! You're missing the libations!") really didn't sound much like anything classic Blok would say.
Doctor Fate's reappearance was a bit weird as well, as it seemed almost like he planned to fake his death and return, which didn't feel like it matched up with his "death" last issue very well.
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