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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991462 08/21/20 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cramer
There's also the question of what would have been done with the older Legionnaires to make room for the kids - hire Giffen for a one-shot to blow up the planet on which the great Legion reunion was being held?

The older Legion (survivors thereof) could be found in the vats, victims of the Earth/Dominator War that destroyed Earth. All revealed as the youngsters positively get New Earth back on its feet, and re-join adventures in the UP.

Originally Posted by Cramer
He's much more hands on that Marla was ever shown to be, which is sort of creepy; why does a 30-something want to hang out with a bunch of teenagers?

Midlife crisis? Perhaps all that cellular rearranging, not to mention that radiation exposure on Durla, gives Durlans a short lifespan.
Or, following his near death experience with Roxxas, Cham realises that it's the adventure he misses. Going off into parallel worlds and falling for princesses. He's going to get zero adventure hanging around with the Armchair Wonders.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991551 08/25/20 02:38 AM
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Legionnaires #2 "In Death's Grip" by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, art by Chris Sprouse & Karl Story, Colours Tom McCraw, Letters Pat Brosseau, Assistant Editor Eddie Berganza, Editor K.C. Carlson

Mano is defeated and handed over to Chief Erin after other Legionnaires come to the aid of Tinya, Vi and Lu. Jo is taken to the infirmary. The founders' love triangle heats up when Imra, impressed with Rokk taking responsibility, pecks him on the cheek, followed by Garth punching him and telling him to stay away from her.

A crowd of wannabe Legionnaires gathers outside the HQ; at Cham's suggestion, the Legion holds tryouts. X-Bomb Betty, Cera Kesh and Plaid Lad are called and fail to make the grade. Garth and Dirk insult the plain, pudgy Cera. Rokk assigns Cham the job of pre-screening applicants. Cera confronts Dirk regarding his rudeness; he just insults her further. She flees into an alley and is watched by the Emerald Eye.

Leland McCauley and a new Emerald Empress bribe a guard to release The Persuader's axe, although they turn out to be holograms and melt away as the axe disappears.

Gim and Ayla investigate a mystery of disappearing sewer workers, clear up a misunderstanding about Ayla's feelings for Gim and are attacked by a large Golem-like creature.

Comments: With Jo unconscious/injured, the three girls do a good job of holding off Mano but need reinforcements. Two of Lu go outside the jammed compound to contact Imra; why not leave two to fight and one go for help? Violet has to be directed by Tinya; that strikes me as overplaying her timidity. Nevertheless, it's a well-paced fight.

Just as Violet seems overly nervous, Garth and Dirk come off as overly frat-boy. Well, it's comic books, but Dirk certainly seems to be forgetting the lessons he learned from his older self's fate and Garth is far more tempermental than he ever was. They're conforming to hot personalities which match their powers. It's a bit clich?, and one might thus expect Catspaw to be the catty, gossipy one, but so far the writers haven't overdone this sort of power=personality approach with other characters. (This came to mind after reading a comment by EDE in another thread re: Rokk's magnetic personality, etc.)

It's clear that Leland is reuniting the Fatal Five and the big bloke at the end will likely be the Validus replacement. Why the Eye is interested in Cera Kesh is unclear and one wonders what it, or its new mistress, want with the poor girl.

The tryout is the classic combination of silly (Plaid Lad), futile (X-Bomb Betty, although she did get a date with Dirk out of it) and cruel (Cera Kesh), but balanced by Rokk and Imra's more professional behaviour. There may have been a number of familiar faces among the applicants, but I only recognized AFOB and a Catwoman copy.

I liked how Rokk dumped the pre-screening job on Cham, who had suggested it for someone else to do. It was Cham's ill-advised idea to proceed with tryouts without any preparation; as the adult adviser and with his own long experience, he should have known better. Will he get pushed aside by the kids in each issue? Cham's beginning to annoy me.

There's a running joke about how Tenzil mishears words as food references. That could get old fast, if it continues through future issues.

The cover is first of a series of connecting images, hence the "1" and the claw behind Tinya's head which is the sewer creature.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991743 08/29/20 06:28 AM
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Legionnaires #2


A decent gender clich? reversal cover starts this one off. Good to see it's Tinya standing against Mano. She's probably the safest Legionnaire to tackle him. Poor Mano used to have some super speed as well as his deadly touch (and some energy blasts at one point). He's one of those characters who has been just too deadly to use effectively. He's been using his downtime in keeping up with current events. He knows to call this Tinya "Apparition"

The mission team have to call in reinforcements to deal with Mano. I might have preferred seeing them resolve it on their own. On the other hand, they all get important actions, and it's Jo who's unconscious. A very hesitant Vi (who I don't recall being this nervous in the Silver Age) acts as a distraction. Tinya gets the minions to blast the boss (Mano is blaster resistant here) and Lu shows some combat skill and resourcefulness in sending two of her bodies for help. There's a moment of threat as Mano nearly kills Tinya (who falls under the gas rather too easily), as he threatened to do with Jo at the end of last issue.
One good decision in having reinforcements, is that they also get to showcase their personalities and abilities. It's a stronger approach than having 30 heroes joined at the hip, as per v8. TM are generally much better dialoguers too. There are a few clunky lines here, as they try to establish Man o and Sun Boy in particular.

Dirk, Querl, Imra (who has picked up Nura's precognitive combat skills in this volume) all have their moments. Ayla is the one who defeats the villain. He's a bit easily knocked out, just falling from the ceiling though.
Mano refuses to talk about who's backing him and his gang to Officer Erin. He's probably wondering why those shackles are stopping his hand that can burn through anything.
TM's focus on the personalities of the cast pays off again when showing the relationships between a much younger Jo/Tinya and Imra/ Rokk. There's another suggestion here that Garth might have his work cut out to be Imra's partner in this volume. It's a good moment between the team's two natural leaders. Garth doesn't take kindly to it. His personality is so distinct from his Adventure days, that you could see him become a liability to the team.

We're only in issue 2, and we have try-outs! It's a large team as it is, but in issue #1 TM did an excellent job in introducing us to the team. This continues with that energy, by potentially introducing other cast members as well as having a nice nod to Legion tradition. The plaudits of the try out issue in v3 might have also played a part.

We see Arm Fall Off Boy in the crowd. Sprouse has also brought in The Phade from the Hammerlocke series he drew. He would have been rejected for his similarity with Apparition. I think he's also killed a few over the years too. Rejected! smile

It's not clear why the crowd have suddenly appeared wanting a try-out. Perhaps it's the lure of a new team of heroes, with it being a tradition. Cham's the one who agrees to hold them. But it's a ramshackle affair with the heroes picking a few out of the crowd. That's going to leave a lot of unhappy applicants. At least, Cham gets lumbered with conducting proper testing at the end of the scene. He's more like Latham all the time. I hope he's enjoying all the youthful fun and excitement as he's checking through application forms.

Garth and Dirk's personalities continue to be less than impressive. TM are giving the team some early friction. They're lecherous enough but openly insult one of the applicants. That the rejections are done in front of a huge crowd, saves TM from changing the scene (see Mega at the team meeting last issue) but looks pretty poor in front of their public. Cera Kesh has some decent TK abilities. Academy potential, noting that Dragonmage made the team when he's not in control of his powers.

Plaid Lad is the last applicant to be rejected. The dialogue used was straight out of the old Adventure days. Much like X-Bomb Betty's line resembled Wildfire. Where I found the old ones whimsical, Plaid Lad strays into parody of the book, when I'm less keen on. Arm Fall Off Boy started as a throw-a-way parody and he's used (or at least his arm is) to beat up the book by people looking for an easy hit.

Sadly, the next scene isn't Dirk and/or Garth being officially reprimanded for their actions.

At least TM don't let Dirk get away entirely. Cera confronts him about her behaviour. Dirk insults her again and she leaves, although Imra tries to comfort her. Cera is being watched by the Emerald Eye. An earlier subplot had some killings under the city. This all looks to be the return of the Fatal Five. Gim & Ayla confront a Blok-like member of the Five at the end of the issue. It looks to have been behind the murders. We get an insight into Gim. He's wants to do a good job. He looks for reassurance from founders that he's doing one. He looks for compliments from Ayla, and he's a bit insecure, reacting the wrong way when she gives him a compliment.

McCauley and an Emerald clad lady companion take the Persuader's axe form Takron Galtos, and the five are nearly all here. The Blok-guy looks to be a Validus replacement. Perhaps McCauley's companion is to be the Emerald Empress, and not Cera. McCauley may be a Tharok stand in, with the Persuader still to appear.

The plotting is decent throughout. It focuses on the emergence of the Five, which offers a number of parallel subplots. TM know that they can use that space in future issues to establish broader subplots for the book.

We get to establish the personalities of the team, with them again working in small groups. Less involved members, such as Tenzil also get plenty of opportunities. Oddly for TM I thought some of the dialogue was a little clunky. I guess they're trying to pitch it at a younger audience. But their normal approach was good enough for accomplish that.

By the time this came out, I was a bit jaded by the endless plot of the main book. But the best of its early issues had made an impression large enough for me not to be terribly interested in a story with a simpler plot. It's doing this a bit of a disservice as TM do a good job in establishing the team for new readers. The character bios at the end of the issues are also well done. TM had a lot of experience putting together the 2995 RPG book, and it pays off here. It's interesting to get their take on Andrew Nolan. He picks up on some Stone Boy traits. As with Imra taking on Nura traits, TM are condensing some of the characters into the main cast.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991751 08/29/20 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth
One good decision in having reinforcements, is that they also get to showcase their personalities and abilities. It's a stronger approach than having 30 heroes joined at the hip, as per v8. TM are generally much better dialoguers too. There are a few clunky lines here, as they try to establish Man o and Sun Boy in particular.

That does seem to be a better approach to give the reader an idea of each individual. One Legionnaire vs one villain as opposed to all of them vs an army.

Quote
It's not clear why the crowd have suddenly appeared wanting a try-out. Perhaps it's the lure of a new team of heroes, with it being a tradition.

That struck me as a bit odd, given that everyone has been traumatized by the destruction of Earth and are just settling into their city domes, but it's the sort of thing that you just ignore and get on with the story. Or maybe 30th century kids are incredibly resistant to disaster.

Quote
By the time this came out, I was a bit jaded by the endless plot of the main book. But the best of its early issues had made an impression large enough for me not to be terribly interested in a story with a simpler plot. It's doing this a bit of a disservice as TM do a good job in establishing the team for new readers.

Funny how time changes the perspective. This series wasn't serious enough for me at the time, too bright and shiny, but I appreciate the craftmanship today.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991760 08/29/20 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Cramer
Violet has to be directed by Tinya; that strikes me as overplaying her timidity. Nevertheless, it's a well-paced fight.

TM seem to be establishing some personalities around a few traits. Presumably to make them more recognisable to the readers. Some are a bit much, even without taking previous versions (their Adventure selves) into account. As you mention, Dirk seems to have forgotten meeting the end of his older self. Violet is another one, who has gone a little too far.


Originally Posted by Cramer
(This came to mind after reading a comment by EDE in another thread re: Rokk's magnetic personality, etc.)
Yeah, that was a good post. Both Livewire and SUnboy are certainly living up to their powers here.


Originally Posted by Cramer
Why the Eye is interested in Cera Kesh is unclear and one wonders what it, or its new mistress, want with the poor girl.

I wondered too, thinking that McCauley's green wearing assistant would be the Empress. If Mcauley controls the Eye, we could have had an Emerald Emperor here. They guy controlling Omnicom, taking on both Tharok smarts and Empress powers might have been interesting.


Originally Posted by Cramer
It was Cham's ill-advised idea to proceed with tryouts without any preparation; as the adult adviser and with his own long experience, he should have known better. Will he get pushed aside by the kids in each issue? Cham's beginning to annoy me.
Considering the character in other versions, not keeping the SW6 Cham seems like a mistake. It might have been preferable to see the younger Cham embrace the fun and youthful adventure of the galaxy, rather than his older self trying to relive the memories of it.


Originally Posted by Cramer
The cover is first of a series of connecting images, hence the "1" and the claw behind Tinya's head which is the sewer creature.

I hadn't noticed. thanks.

Originally Posted by Cramer
This series wasn't serious enough for me at the time, too bright and shiny, but I appreciate the craftmanship today.

Yeah, it was the same for me. I wonder if I'll have the same reaction with the early Post Boot issues.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991889 09/01/20 02:35 AM
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Legionnaires #3 "The Beast Below" by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, art by Chris Sprouse & Karl Story, Colours Tom McCraw, Letters Pat Brosseau, Assistant Editor Eddie Berganza, Editor K.C. Carlson, Special Thanks to Gaijin Studios

Gim and Ayla fight the sewer creature; Gim accidently cuts off Ayla's direct line of sight and her power fails. They're both knocked unconscious. Gim, found by sewer workers, is questioned as he recovers in the Legion infirmary. Ayla is missing; Garth explodes with anger at Gim. Brainy informs the group that the creature is a "Mordecai", a product of genetic experiment thought to have been lost in Earth's destruction. Rokk assembles a powerful team to tackle Mordecai: Laurel, Dirk, Garth, Xao Jin and Brainy. Violet attends to Gim, who escapes the infirmary when he sends her for some water.

Ayla awakens in a cage below ground and discovers the Mordecai has written a soulful expression of love for her. She levitates a key, unlocks her cage and escapes.

The Legionnaires fight Mordercai, but he proves to be a difficult opponent. A woozy Gim appears, attacks Mordecai and is knocked out. Brainy finally decides to use the stasis gun, but Ayla intervenes and pleads on behalf of the creature. Mordecai picks up Gim but, before Brainy fires, the creature disappears in a flash of green light, leaving the Legionnaires baffled.

On Takron Galtos II, the Persuader's axe find him and he escapes.

Cera Kesh simmers with anger and resentment as the Eye hovers at a distance. Strangers make fun of her, she angers and suddenly transforms into the Emerald Empress.

Comments: Mordecai is presumably the result of Dominator engineering, a reminder that the Dominator chambers could be filled with years' worth of adversaries, especially if reprogramming of those released eventually fails.

It's a classic beauty and the beast story, so I'm wondering if next time they meet, Mordecai will have a soft spot for Ayla.

It worked out, story-wise, but I wouldn't have sent a guy who can grow to giant size into a subterranean tunnel job. The Gim-Ayla combination does well enough considering that the creature later knocks Andromeda and the other heavyweights for a loop, but Gim is something of a doofus here, not getting out of Ayla's way to keep Mordecai weightless. This is the first time I recall that her powers were dependant on a direct line of sight; it's a logical limitation.

There's good characterization: empathic Ayla, determined Gim, helpful, consoling Violet, Brainy showing self-restraint before using a stasis gun, Garth's concern for his sister, Dirk's concern for newbie Xao Jin.

Two Empresses? Is McCauley's green-clad clingy female just a cosplayer? Cera's public humiliation is painful, but gives the Eye just what it seeks: anger, resentment, revenge-seeking. Cera's first thoughts are not just to relish her newfound beauty and power but to "do anything... to anybody".

Only Tharok remains to be revealed at this point. Thinking back to DnA's Ra's al Ghul as McCauley, it would be a good twist to have Tharok take over McCauley's body, or impersonate him. After all, technology has moved on since the days when Tharok was half-man, half-robot, as evidenced by the probes (oddly absent in this series so far).

This is where Cham would be useful. Longtime readers see a flash of green light and, given the context, figure that Mordecai has been transported by the Eye and the Five are reassembling. Unlike the Legionnaires, Cham has encountered the Five and, as something of a detective, should be able to piece together what may be happening and give the kids a quick lesson. If he's not too busy screening applicants, that is.


Here are the arc's five linked covers together:

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991934 09/01/20 12:28 PM
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Legionnaires #3

Cover points for Alt+Blok crushing the logo. Jonni DC will be onto him for messing around with the code box though. Jonni's continuity powers are probably behind Alt+Blok not making appearances in other versions.

It was an action-packed issue, which comes as a surprise after so long reading the main book. TM once again keep the mission teams at the standard smaller size. This allows for some extended interaction between the cast.

Seeing the heroes as sometimes ineffective through their own faults, takes a little getting used to. Their Adventure era personalities might have been knocked out a lot, but it wasn't usually because they made a mess of something. GIm's brave. But in his attempt to protect Ayla, he cuts off her powers and gets her crushed, before being thumped himself.

A lot of the others tell him it wasn't his fault, but he could have done a lot better. He probably knows that too, returning to face Alt+Blok once more, despite his injuries. In doing so, he shows his bravery again. But he doesn't contribute to that fight, falling unconscious and giving his colleagues something more to worry about. In leaving for the second battle he fools Vi. I hope Vi learned some lessons from her older self. But like Dirk, I think they've been forgotten to allow a full arc to develop separately in this book.

Live Wire is quick to cast blame at his sister's capture. In a nice touch, he's going on the mission whether Rokk picks him or not. If it was your relative, you'd not do anything less. As a founding member of the team, it's interesting to see who his relationship with Rokk differs from others who defer more to the leaders in the team. Live Wire doesn't fare any better against Alt+Blok, and is lucky not to be crushed to death. He does tell of Gim for getting them into trouble. He's critical, but not wrong, in this issue.

There are a lot of injuries here that don't result in long term harm. Gim seems to have the endurance of his large self even when normal sized. Ayla suffers no ill effects from being crushed by two giants.

Strength and energy blasts aren't going to harm Alt+Blok, as Dirk and Laurel also find out. Both Jo and Laurel have learned that sheer power won't get this Legion through their problems in this series. It would have been a good time to see Dragonmage do something effective. But he has no effect on their foe, and is absolutely thumped. He's another one who could have been killed by such a punch.

Ayla is the key to this beauty and the beast story. She had most effect in each of the encounters with their foe. Firstly using her powers to keep Alt+Block at bay. Secondly to convince the others that the creature may not be the threat he appears. There's a pile of bodies somewhere that Jeckie could get to disagree with that.

Alt+Blok vanishes in an emerald burst of energy. He was going to further injure Gim (who seems to get thumped in any version. See also Garth holding an arm in this issue.)

Yet the Eye has been seen following Cera Kesh. Perhaps it nipped away for five minutes. Thanks to Dirk, Cera can't even go for a walk and an ice cream without taunts form passers by. In her wish to get back at those who have caused her distress, the Eye transforms her. And that's a shame. There's no acceptance of Cera for what she is. Perfectly normal. She is transformed into Barbie Lass, and it's a shame that TM think that deep down she just wanted to be like those people she called a "perfect little cheerleader" a few panels before. Her reality is shaken by the transformation and she wonders if it could be a dream. I wonder if Sarya started off with minor grudges that developed over time, as she and the Eye worked together.

No more sitting around dreaming for the Persuader, who escapes from prison, following the appearance of his atomic axe. Mano; The Persuader; Emerald Empress and Alt+Blok. McCauley has orchestrated their escapes. The Five have seldom been underplayed in Legion history. It will be interesting if this continues, without the original Empress and Validus. I saw from Cramer's cover post that Tharok is around somewhere. Who will lead the Five when he arrives will be interesting.

TM continue to mix action with characterisation developed in scenes with two characters or small mission teams. The characters show their flaws, but they have been dialled back a little. Perhaps that's down to them acting like the Adventure Legion a bit more when in battle. Away form combat, the personalities developed by TM make for some interesting team dynamics.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #991985 09/03/20 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth
It would have been a good time to see Dragonmage do something effective. But he has no effect on their foe, and is absolutely thumped. He's another one who could have been killed by such a punch.

Yeah, I was surprised he wasn't shown to have more success; maybe not defeat the beast, but slow him down. Too newbie to be safe.

Quote
Alt+Blok vanishes in an emerald burst of energy. He was going to further injure Gim (who seems to get thumped in any version. See also Garth holding an arm in this issue.)

Which Legionnaire has racked up the most injuries? Gim does get familiar with infirmaries, going back to his SP cadet days (which may not be canon in this version). Garth's arm! Didn't catch it, but it's another callback to the past. Luckier with Mordecai than Moby.

Quote
Yet the Eye has been seen following Cera Kesh. Perhaps it nipped away for five minutes. Thanks to Dirk, Cera can't even go for a walk and an ice cream without taunts form passers by. In her wish to get back at those who have caused her distress, the Eye transforms her. And that's a shame. There's no acceptance of Cera for what she is. Perfectly normal. She is transformed into Barbie Lass, and it's a shame that TM think that deep down she just wanted to be like those people she called a "perfect little cheerleader" a few panels before. Her reality is shaken by the transformation and she wonders if it could be a dream. I wonder if Sarya started off with minor grudges that developed over time, as she and the Eye worked together.

We become what we hate? Of course, the Empress has to be uber-sexy/beautiful but Cera wasn't exactly a fat-hideous looking blob to begin with. It probably wouldn't have had as much impact if she'd just become powerful rather than Dirk's idea of a 10. I wondered about the implications for Sarya as well, since the Eye had enslaved her by the end. Her origin story was more about seeking power, but who knows if some guy at the Venegar senior prom didn't insult her.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992132 09/08/20 02:56 AM
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Legionnaires #4 "If Looks Could Kill" by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, art by Chris Sprouse & Karl Story, Colours Tom McCraw, Letters Pat Brosseau, Assistant Editor Eddie Berganza, Editor K.C. Carlson

Empress Cera flies above New Earth, relishing her power and recounting her backstory.

Garth and Dirk race in the HQ, bumping into Andromeda. Inferno makes a crude remark and is called out by Invisible Kid. Andromeda derides them, Lyle berates them and a fight ensues. It's stopped by Inferno grabbing Invisible Kid and the arrival of Saturn Girl and Ferro. Saturn Girl is very annoyed with Garth.

Ferro, Live Wire and Inferno get Ultra Boy to take them to a seedy bar, where the Empress, dressed in civilian clotes, is playing pool. She plays a game with Dirk, using her powers to make him fatter each time she sinks a ball. Live Wire attacks her and she reveals herself as the Empress.

At HQ, Rokk brushes Cham aside, assigning Computo to meet with President Stewart. They learn that Mano has escaped; Rokk sends Catspaw, M-E Lad and, reluctantly assigns Cham as team leader. The Persuader has liberated Mano. As the Legionnaires attack, Mano accidently releases the cell door locks and free all prisoners; in the mayhem, Mano and Persuader escape.

At the bar, Ferro calls for help as the Empress continues her attack. Ultra Boy discerns that the Eye is the problem and smashes it. Saturn Girl and Alchemist arrive but the Empress still has enough power to blast Garth. Cera herself briefly breaks through and pleads with Saturn Girl for help but the Eye resumes control just as Saturn Girl perceives who this Empress really is. Alchemist tries to surround her with inertron, but he's too cautious and she escapes. Live Wire recovers groggily and Saturn Girl tells him she loves him.

Persuader and Mano head to an asteroid where they meet McCauley, Mordecai and the new/other Empress, Ingria Olav, who is McCauley's girlfriend. McCauley shows them Tharok, still in a life support tank.

Comments: There's a lot of variety in this story. We see that the Legion is not one big happy family and suffers personality clashes as any normal group of people would.

Laurel's "little boys" comment is reinforced by Garth and Dirk (at Andrew's suggestion) being eager to visit a tough guy bar. This could have been Andrew's way of taking some of the energy out of the frat boys' animal spirits; he doesn't get into the fighting, but goes outside to call for help. I did find it odd that Garth and Dirk would be so excited to visit a seedy dive; they're Legionnaires, clean-cut but they've faced a lot of danger? Where's the thrill in this? Maybe it's the trashy women. Presumably, the Eye somehow alerted Cera that they were headed there.

Jo shows some good street smarts, or possibly deductive abilities, by smashing the source of the power, the Eye.

It was a very sad moment when Cera broke through the Eye's control; it shows she has a sense of how badly wrong her revenge dreams have gone. Imra's hesitation allows the Eye to subjugate Cera completely and Jan's hesitation to hurt Cera enables her escape. These Legionnaires make mistakes, not from carelessness but caring.

Rokk's firmly in charge. He determines who does what and one has to wonder if he doesn't find Cham a bit annoying at this point. However, he yields to the adult advisor's plea and lets him be team leader to capture Mano. (Did Cham ever face the Fatal Five? I don't think so.)

April and Tenzil against Mano strikes me as seriously under-powered, but it's a good excuse to give them some panel time. They might have succeeded if Mano hadn't accidently caused the mayhem of freed prisoners; he wasn't clever enough to create the distraction on purpose.

We don't know who Ingria Olav was before she became the other Empress. Did she come with the Eye or did McCauley set her up with it? Tharok is going to be field commander of the Five; he may clash with McCauley over who's in charge.

McCauley's a crazy germaphobe. Well, aren't we all now? I wonder what happened between him and Universo, if they're still in cahoots.

There were a lot of little touches in the artwork: Garth's Saturn necklace, backwards ballcap with the lightning symbol (so 20th century, but suiting him perfectly) and drinking at the bar with a straw (so probably non-alcoholic); the glowing remants and rubble of Earth, Dirk's "Phobos Aid" t-shirt and yellow gloves (why?), bottles of Silverale - minor things which add flavour to the story.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992159 09/09/20 05:20 AM
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(Did Cham ever face the Fatal Five? I don't think so.)

He definitely did. At a minimum, he once infiltrated them disguised as Mano (he was found out when his hand failed to disintegrate what he was leaning on), in Superboy # 198. I'm sure that can't have been the only Fatal Five fight in which he was involved, but that one comes to mind most readily, since it was one of the recent Legion Trivia questions.

Tharok's unexpected re-appearance alive is hand-waved as McCauley having "found him in another dimension." I would have much preferred if Tharok had some more dialogue and a more coherent story to explain his survival. Or better yet, just replace Tharok as they did Validus, or as the Emerald Empress did in the immediate post-Crisis Fatal Five story. Additionally, falling victim to the brevity of the pre-ZH Legionnaires series is the possibility that the Dark Man is also still alive somewhere out there, or the possibility that Tharok might have some mental control over the little boy Validus.

I did like Live Wire and Inferno trying to play "tough guy" but chickening out around the real toughs, though you'd think that super-heroes who have risked their lives (and Garth actually died, though I guess this Garth might not have memory of the experience) and had just gotten out of a war would have some more stomach for true "toughness." And the two of them should have caught on much more quickly to the whole Cera revenge thing than they really did, and shown some genuine remorse. They might be somewhat jerkish in this incarnation, but they should have felt a bit chastised by the experience.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992305 09/13/20 07:35 AM
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Legionnaires #4

I felt less interest in this one, but it's not through fault of TM. The writers have gone to decent lengths to differentiate the SW6 cast form their older counterparts. That's enabled them to develop their personalities more organically from the start of the book. I'm just a bit less interested in reading about kid heroes than more mature ones.

Considering the Legion started as kids in the future, this might seem a bit odd. But they were always so earnest. Even the squabbles took on the guise of being kicked off the team. Members would struggle with their place in things, in more of an introverted way, while still proving themselves as heroes.
TM have shown that Garth & Dirk are jerks, both on and off the team. At the end of the issue, Garth is aware his relationship with Imra has had some problems. But there's no hint that he's responsible for them. Which isn't a complaint. He wouldn't be a such a jerk if he was self-aware.

TM play with Garth's Adventure death, in having him lose vital signs after being blasted. That had a big impact on the storylines and the nature of the book. Here, a fatal blast is resolved in a few panels. It's a bit shallow, fitting in with Garth & Dirk's personalities.

Seeing them bully other members of the team isn't a good look. The book seems to want to fit in with a stereotypical school, where members of the cast fit in with student roles. I never saw the old team in that way, although I never went to a school like that. So it's a bit of a backward step for me. I'm sure TM can look at it, and say they're developing more natural conflicts within the team. I'm certainly viewing them through their older selves too.

Having Cera Kesh already waiting at the bar, playing pool when the heroes come in, doesn't make a lot of plot sense. There's no indication of how Cera knew they would be there. Additionally, there's nothing in Cera's personality to show why she would be there either. TM have transformed her into a stereotype, replacing Cera's personality along the way. Cera does get the chance to say that it's the eye making her do things.

If that's the sort of thing the eye makes people do, I can only guess that the original owner of the eye was a preteen boy with odd ideas. Perhaps the girl in his class with the green hair had more sense than to go near him, and he developed a massive grudge.
Cera whisks away following her confrontation with the Legion. She has to join the five, and the Legion get to know who she really is. Unfortunately, that means that Jan has to be a bit slow in using his powers, to let her escape. TM give us a nice twist in that that Cera doesn't immediately join the villainous Fatal Five. They already have an Emerald Empress; Ingria Olav. She was hanging on McCauley's arm, which is a bit of a step back from the status of the first Empress.

In an alternate storyline, Saturn Girl manages to hold off the eye's influence as Jo flies it to the other end of the Galaxy. Kesh finds that her conflict with the Eye, have strengthened her will and her TK powers. She joins as Kinetix while Dirk gets punted, with Garth not far behind for fighting their teammates and insulting applicants.

Jo retains the wrong-side-of-the-tracks background that TM cemented for the older Jo. He's much more comfortable at the bar, than the childish Garth and Dirk. He's also smart enough to know that the Eye, and not Cera is the problem. Jo, Rokk, Imra, Laurel and Lyle could easily form a more dependable core of this team.

Cham gets sidelined again. I'm still thinking this was an attempt to have the younger team show their capability, by showing that Cham brings nothing they need to the team. Which means that we've got a character who brings nothing to the team, and we lose out on what a younger Durlan would have brought to the book. Cham isn't the only experience Legionnaire in the book. Giffen Lad makes a cameo on page 8 (on his way to Tokyo Dome to check Val is definitely dead.)

I always though Tharok looked a lot like what was left of Steel, when Despero found him in the Justice League International story.

It's a fairly linear issue. There's a little more on personal conflicts in the team, revolving around Garth and Dirk. The Five offer two action scenes. I noticed Magpie escaping as The Persuader freed Mano. I'd have liked an extra subplot or two, as there's a lot happening regarding the formation of New Earth etc. Like still viewing the youthful characters through their older selves (and their history as youths), the shadow of the TMK run still extends a bit to this relaunch. If anything, I think TM are holding back a bit, because of some negative views on the complexity of the main series.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992352 09/14/20 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CMK
Tharok's unexpected re-appearance alive is hand-waved as McCauley having "found him in another dimension." I would have much preferred if Tharok had some more dialogue and a more coherent story to explain his survival.

One wonders how long McCauley has had Tharok. It might have made more sense for him to have found him/stolen him from the Dominators.

Originally Posted by thoth
TM play with Garth's Adventure death, in having him lose vital signs after being blasted. That had a big impact on the storylines and the nature of the book. Here, a fatal blast is resolved in a few panels. It's a bit shallow, fitting in with Garth & Dirk's personalities.

Good point, I hadn't made the connection to Garth's original death. Intentional or not, this shallow near-death does suit the personality. He possibly learned nothing from it, as well.

Quote
If that's the sort of thing the eye makes people do, I can only guess that the original owner of the eye was a preteen boy with odd ideas.

Oh, dear. There's trouble aplenty. Or just give the Eye an xbox and a bag of chips, and it will leave everyone alone.

Quote
TM give us a nice twist in that that Cera doesn't immediately join the villainous Fatal Five. They already have an Emerald Empress; Ingria Olav. She was hanging on McCauley's arm, which is a bit of a step back from the status of the first Empress.

A clear hint that this Empress is not quite up to scratch. A real Empress wouldn't need or want McCauley, except maybe to clean her boots.

Quote
Cham gets sidelined again. I'm still thinking this was an attempt to have the younger team show their capability, by showing that Cham brings nothing they need to the team. Which means that we've got a character who brings nothing to the team, and we lose out on what a younger Durlan would have brought to the book.

I guess he's the R.J. character in this series; he wants to do everything his father did, but better. I would have liked to see R.J. arrive on the scene to check out the new team and charm everybody with that upbeat personality of his (annoying his son to no end).

Quote
Giffen Lad makes a cameo on page 8 (on his way to Tokyo Dome to check Val is definitely dead.)

Hah! He does look like a man with a mission, striding through the bar like that.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992368 09/15/20 02:49 AM
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Legionnaires #5 "New Life New Death" by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, art by Chris Sprouse & Karl Story, Colours Tom McCraw, Letters Pat Brosseau, Assistant Editor Eddie Berganza, Editor K.C. Carlson

Tharok revives and learns that McCauley has control over his computer half. McCauley outlines his plan for the Five to conquer New Earth and allow him all the business profits. Unknown to the Five, he only appeared as a hologram, remaining confined in his sanitized bubble on Gallan.

A team of Legionnaires meets with Jeryl, U.P. Vice-Chairman, attending a reception and handing out U.P. funds to New Earth. The Five attack as they enter the reception. Apparition signals for reinforcements. Empress Cera watches the scene from afar, sneering at Ingria's fear in battle. McCauley also observes the fight, relatively unconcerned whether or not the Five succeed and satisfied that they inflict a lot of damage. In battle, Tharok senses some independence as his human half gains strength from adrenaline. He seizes Jeryl and demands the Legionnaires surrender. Ingria flees in tears back to Gallan, angering McCauley. She is suddenly obliterated by Cera before a disbelieving McCauley.

Comments:A big fight/action issue, which gives many Legionnaires a chance to show their powers. The Fatal Five, rusty as they may be (according to McCauley), still present a challenge and aren't taken down easily. The Legionnaires don't come off as rusty, but they do exhibit occasional overconfidence or inattention. However, teamwork prevails, possibly helped by the Five's lack of a clear plan, and Cham actually gets to do something useful.

McCauley turns out to be an even bigger germ freak than indicated previously; now he encloses himself in a bubble and communicates via hologram. Was it a hologram making plans with Universo or has he taken a turn for the worse? He does mention a partner in this game, presumably Universo, and seems indifferent to what happens to his team of villains.

The fight between the Eyes gave the impression of a lot of power and anger. (The way those two fought, you'd think they were married.) Cera claims that the Eye chose her, so she was the true Empress; was the other Eye just going along with McCauley and biding its time until reunited with its mate? McCauley's Eye was working to keep him youthful (and may have been affecting his mind) as well as working with Ingria, but perhaps the Eye sabotaged them both by not giving Ingria the mental strength she needed in battle.

Cera weakened for a moment in the fight and her old self appeared, which hints that she's still fighting for control. Perhaps there was some long-term idea to have Cera win over the Eye by standing up for her true self. A long shot, but a good moral story.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992428 09/17/20 02:26 PM
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Legionnaires #5

While there's an okay structure to this issue (I think TM are holding back on the subplots to allow this title to establish itself compared to the main book), I was underwhelmed by TM's handling of the Fatal Five. During the rereads, The Five have nearly always managed to be a credible threat to the Legion, even if they don't often get to succeed. It's not that they are minions, dressed as business associates, of McCauley. He's no Dark Man, but the plot to sow some disorder on Earth, plus his fear of contamination is fine.

Tharok is effective for all of one panel, and that's the one where he's being revived. After that, he's just a stooge. So, his computer brain is reprogrammed, and later affected by Computo. But what about his own mind? It would have been better to see him fight off external control, perhaps leading to a stronger Five at the end of the story. There's a hint he needs an adrenal surge for his human mind to become independent. Perhaps that's TM going for the same thing.

The stand in Emerald Empress isn't any kind of credible threat. McCauley may have caught the eye, but how this Empress caught the Eye's Eye is a mystery. How did McCauley get it to bond with someone so unsuited? Ingria is just set up to flee to McCauley. This is presumably so that the Legion can follow her, and be there to intervene between McCauley and Cera, next issue. Ingira is also set up to die, just to show how ruthless Cera now is. McCauleys terror of infection doesn't go beyond a few shouts, which seems a little off.

The addled Tharok and ineffective Empress remove the two most effective members of the Five. Validus' replacement, Alt+Blok engages in solo combat with Laurel, removing his as much of a threat to others. He's taken out by a double punch, which always seems to work in comics (2 Supermans vs Doomsday comes to mind)

Persuader is cursed to have a weapon that he can't be shown to use effectively. His axe rips Jo's costume. And with the Legion without Seamstress Lass, surely disaster will follow?! Or not. Likewise, Mano's death touch is too deadly for comics and he's reduced to various misses that make him look slow and useless. Originally, he had some super speed, before someone realised that he could kill the entire team before they could do much.

Perhaps the new readers this book hoped to attract won't know any differently, and the Five would seem to be a decent threat. But set in the main continuity, they are far form at their best. Tharok is reduced to taking Ambassador Jeryl hostage. Surely Cham to the rescue next issue? The colourist makes sure to have her more modestly dressed than her first appearance.

There's nice bits of characterisation in the issue. Vi's introversion; Tenzil's wisecracks and more interestingly Andrew's daredevil nature that TM were keen to give him. Danielle's reaction to the staring boys was a nice touch too.
There are plenty of positives in the book. Looking back at the wreckage of multiple reboots, this one stands up quite well, to engage with new readers and provide solidly structured plots with plenty of little character moments. But it was published in the shadow of the main book, where I was probably still waiting to get some of that early potential realised.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992455 09/18/20 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by scamper lad
While there's an okay structure to this issue (I think TM are holding back on the subplots to allow this title to establish itself compared to the main book), I was underwhelmed by TM's handling of the Fatal Five.

Agreed, it played out more like a barroom brawl than a life-threatening encounter with the Fatal Five. The kids have seemed a bit rusty as well, post-war; I got the impression that they were getting back into shape with this fight, however.

Quote
His axe rips Jo's costume. And with the Legion without Seamstress Lass, surely disaster will follow?! Or not.

MARLA!!! (Which could be the 30th century basis for The New Brady Bunch.)

Quote
There's nice bits of characterisation in the issue.

That's the strength of this series as far as I'm concerned.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992566 09/21/20 11:02 AM
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Legionnaires #6 "An Eye for an Eye" by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, art by Chris Sprouse & Karl Story, Colours Tom McCraw, Letters Pat Brosseau, Assistant Editor Eddie Berganza, Editor K.C. Carlson

McCauley uses his Eye to attack Cera; although she is momentarily weakened, she quickly revives and attacks him with her Eye.

Saturn Girl traces Ingria to Gallan; Dragonmage,Gossamer and Triad head there. They get through security and find Cera and McCauley battling. The Legionnaires try to stop the fight. McCauley yells at them to leave and, in his distraction, Cera gains control of both Eyes. She flees, leaving a disfigured and injured McCauley, who had only retained his youthful appearance because of the Eye.

Tharok is still holding Jeryl hostage but Apparition phases through the floor, emerges behind him and breaks his hold. Computo takes control of Tharok and sends him crashing to the floor.At the Earthgov Capitol, the Legionnaires subdue the remaining four adversaries. However, Tharok shuts down his robot half, hijacks an armed SP vehicle and escapes, taking Thaok and Mano with him. Ultra Boy hurls Ferro at the vehicle, crashing it; the three are captured and Mordecai has been felled.

Cos and Invisible Kid discuss that somebody must have been behind the Fatal Five attack and they anticipate further trouble.

Tharok Mano and Persuader are in an SP holding cell, discussing their next move, when Cera arrives to free them, along with Mordecai, and tell them she's the new boss.

Comments:
A lot more fighting. The Gallan team doesn't do much except distract McCauley; presumably they just left him and went home. As he says, no evidence against him. Why they weren't called out as reinforcements for the big Capitol battle isn't explained.

I got this and the previous issue mixed up, writing the comments from memory. They do just blend together as one big fight scene, although this final issue brings four of the Five under control, until Cera frees them at the end.

I did like the discussion between Tharok, Mano and Persuader about what to do next: sell out McCauley or wait for him to get them out. McCauley's future is questionable at this point, however; he's in bad shape after Cera's attack and the loss of the Eye.

This Empress is different from Sarya, who liked pretty things as well as power; Cera expresses disdain for material possessions and sees herself righting great wrongs - at least, great wrongs against herself. She's a fine version of the Emerald Empress: powerful, ruthless, confident but with different motives driving her and more emotional than the original. Unfortunately, we don't see this version of the Five again.

Bierbaums had only vague plans for the Emerald Empress (from his blog):

We didn?t get the chance to pick up on the further adventures of any of these characters, and I honestly don?t recall that we had any particular plans for them. I think we realized the odds were against us being around long enough to pick up on this incarnation of the Fatal Five.

Off the top of my head, my first thought is that we might have eventually seen Cera use her team to conquer a world, perhaps Venegar, from which the original Empress and Eye had originated. And I have the feeling her one-time Legion tormentors Live Wire and Inferno might find themselves in the dungeon of her imperial digs on such a conquered world, with Cera daring the Legionnaires to rescue their captured teammates. She might also use the eye to brainwash / hypnotize Live Wire and Inferno into becoming her lieutenants.


That might have been an interesting development, to have her hold her grudge against Live Wire and Inferno and capture them. It might have brought them down a peg, and/or it might have destroyed her, consumed by resentment.

At this point, however, we've had the Fatal Five (or some of them) around for quite a few issues. Probably a good decision to put them on the back burner and move on to other stories.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992635 09/23/20 01:49 PM
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Legionnaires #6

The battle between the eyes showed the effects of it on its host over time. Cera went back to how she looked, although she was past wanting to return to that. McCauley was a Sarya stand in. Without the eye, he was old and withered. I prefer to think of Sarya as being a lot older than we thought. As McCauley has been a kid in earlier Legion stories, it would appear that it's the use of the power that has drained and withered him.

Ayla is a good, natural team leader on this mission. Dragonmage's powers seem a little vague. Projecting dragonforms that he can use as shields to block or movie things apart at the moment.

Cera gaining both eyes, means there's no real way back for her. Her eye (perhaps letting Cera think she has control, is concerned with righting wrongs and fury). McCauley's eye must be happy letting him gain control in a different, more subtle way. There's a Lost Leigon tale of it using the Omnicom technology (and the Omnicams on each device) to take over the UP.

McCauley losing an eye looked gruesome (getting the book points smile ). His withered face reminded me of the Elastic Lad dominator pawn in the SW6 chambers. He's more ranty about germs and infection here. I was surprised he let the other Empress get close enough to risk infection. Was he isolating to prevent the eye's effects on him becoming more obvious, or to limit it's ability to lead him elsewhere and consume him.

The hostage situation resolution wasn't my favourite. In one panel Tharok has his gun hand aimed at the ambassador. Yet it doesn't fire when Tinya attacks, conveniently throwing itself wide to fire at nothing. Computo's power opened up interesting new powers. But she took over Tharok's robot half far too easily. Herr ability to manipulate computers would be more interesting if the computer's had some defences of their own. Tharok's really should have if the future combines his ability with the basic security protocols of our time.

While it's nice to see Vi overcome her natural fear of death to save Tenzil, The Persuader is taken down too easily. Mano continues to blunder about like he's in a really boring game of tag. Alt+Blok is taken out by Laurel and Jo punching him at the same time, which always works in comics. The 3 villains briefly escape (abandoning Alt+Blok), only to be taken down by daredevil Nolan. Well, less Daredevil than Wolverine doing a fastball special.

Something's wrong with the setup of the Five, when the Persuader is telling Tharok not to be a moron. We've seen Mano as a facilitator for Starfinger in the main book. He's just a thug here. Cera breaks them all out to lead the Five, much as Sarya ended up as leader of the old, reformed Five under Levitz. But that was without Tharok. Here, he's so diminished that the lack of fight for leadership is a disappointment. The Five look to be about to escape, but they've lost more than a bit of pride in this story.

It's another straightforward story. The book is split between battles against the Five and in witnessing the battle between McCauley and the Empress. There's not much in the way of developing subplots in the background. There's no ambassador and Cham reunion which seems to be a missed opportunity. She could have been added to the occasional supporting cast, add a UP insider and give Cham something to do. With McCauley gone, how does that affect Universo's plans in the main book. No Dark Circle, no Dominators and now, a defeated McCauley. The field is open, but how much did he need them for his own plans.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992648 09/24/20 03:02 AM
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The battle between the eyes showed the effects of it on its host over time. Cera went back to how she looked, although she was past wanting to return to that. McCauley was a Sarya stand in. Without the eye, he was old and withered. I prefer to think of Sarya as being a lot older than we thought. As McCauley has been a kid in earlier Legion stories, it would appear that it's the use of the power that has drained and withered him.

It would have been logical to show Sarya turning old and withered before she crumbled to dust. Projectra could have seen through the Eye-created illusion of her youth and beauty. Possibly the Eye ages one rapidly, but preserves the appearance - sort of a Dorian Gray effect. That would be the final blow to the Cera story, to have her realize that the beauty she wished for was just an illusion.

Quote
Something's wrong with the setup of the Five, when the Persuader is telling Tharok not to be a moron. We've seen Mano as a facilitator for Starfinger in the main book. He's just a thug here. Cera breaks them all out to lead the Five, much as Sarya ended up as leader of the old, reformed Five under Levitz. But that was without Tharok. Here, he's so diminished that the lack of fight for leadership is a disappointment. The Five look to be about to escape, but they've lost more than a bit of pride in this story.

He's certainly no mastermind here. They might have suggested that McCauley screwed up his robot mind when he programmed it to obey, thereby destroying Tharok's mental advantage.

Quote
There's no ambassador and Cham reunion which seems to be a missed opportunity. She could have been added to the occasional supporting cast, add a UP insider and give Cham something to do.

Yeah, it's odd that they didn't spare a panel for these two old friends to get together.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992650 09/24/20 05:08 AM
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Battling Tharok was an excellent use of Computo's powers. And Tenzil takes a bite out of the Atomic Axe! (One hopes that he had the presence of mind to eat the whole thing, otherwise, it's probably easily repaired and back in the Persuader's hands (if Zero Hour hadn't occurred first)). Between that and the Miracle Machine (yes, I know that was the adult Tenzil), his gastronomic resume must be the envy of all Bismoll.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion Archives: Volume 29
Fat Cramer #992665 09/24/20 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
Possibly the Eye ages one rapidly, but preserves the appearance - sort of a Dorian Gray effect. That would be the final blow to the Cera story, to have her realize that the beauty she wished for was just an illusion.

That would have been a nice touch. Form your post on TB's blog, it seems they weren't used again by them. It would have been nice to see the Five develop (Tharok regaining his intellect; Empress' control of both eyes; some secret origin for Alt+Blok's powers (dryad perhaps); Mano winning a game of tag and The Persuader giving up on the code unapproved Atomic Axe for the Atomic concussion cannon.

Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
He's certainly no mastermind here. They might have suggested that McCauley screwed up his robot mind when he programmed it to obey, thereby destroying Tharok's mental advantage.
I'd have liked to have had that fight for independence established firmly from the start. It gives the villain an easy arc to follow. Considering the size and power of the Legion, villains really have to be at their best to be effective. The Five were well off the pace.

Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
Yeah, it's odd that they didn't spare a panel for these two old friends to get together.
They had hooked up in their previous story. It would have been nice to have seen that be Cham's development in the title, as he watches his influence wane with the team. Not as nice as having a younger Alt+Cham though.

Originally Posted by Chaim
Between that and the Miracle Machine (yes, I know that was the adult Tenzil), his gastronomic resume must be the envy of all Bismoll.
There was a moment where Tenzil punched the Persuader after eating the axe. If it had been Calorie Queen, then it would have been curtains for the Persuader.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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