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Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
#980493 01/07/20 03:58 AM
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.us]

Legion of Super-Heroes #13 "State of the Universe" by Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum & Al Gordon, art by Keith Giffen & Al Gordon, Letters Todd Klein, Colours Tom McCraw, Editor Dan Raspler

Kent Shakespeare defeats The Persuader, who is arrested by Captain Gim Allon. Gim offers Kent a lift part way to Winath. Kent leaves behind a disgruntled young patient, Ivy. The other children shown in the facility include a Starhavenite, a Hrykarian and an unknown(?) alien. Garridan Ranzz is dressed in an Adventure-era Colossal Boy costume.

Circe gets a dressing down from her Dominator superior for letting the Roxxas incident spin out of control.

Mano tells Starfinger that The Persuader failed.

Jo is fed by two Khundish farmers, who report his arrival to the Dominators. When Jo escapes, the Dominators obliterate the farmers. Jo is confused about where he is and why Dominators and Khunds are working together.

Laurel considers her divided loyalties of Legion and family as she beats up more Khunds.

Hijinks continue from Tenzil and Brek.

Garth offers Rokk a solution to the headquarters problem.

Furball returns, to Kono's delight.

Vi and Rokk apologize to one another for their wartime activities. Rokk writes about it to Lydda and tells her the Legion is back, to her delight.

There's a poster of the new Legion including Cham, Rokk, Vi, Ayla, Kent, Laurel, Kono, Furball, Mysa, Devlin, Jan, Tenzil, Brainy, Celeste and Ivy. No Brek.

A text piece summarizes a Brande Industries report on the State of the Known Universe.

Glorith meets with the original Time Trapper, who tries to join forces with her. She already knows about the other timelines and sneers at him. She extinguishes him and consumes what's left.

Comments:

A satisfying issue, providing more State of the Legion than Universe. A lot of unfinished business from previous issues is wrapped up and the Legion is set to return. After the initial five-page fight between Kent and the Persuader, it's a rapidly paced issue, with no more than one or two pages, sometimes a couple of panels, devoted to each character. Apart from the fight, nothing big happens, but everyone is moving forward from here.

I did find the fight scene too drawn out. We don't learn much about Kent Shakespeare except that he's very strong. He bleeds and he can't breathe underwater, so he's not Superman. There's another whole page devoted to him thinking about a conversation with Ivy, trying to explain why he's leaving, which could have been handled in fewer panels, for my taste.

Since Ivy was included in the group poster, she must have been intended to join. We don't know her powers at this point and it's a moot point, since IIRC she never leaves Quarantine.

Garth is disappointed that Rokk can't join him for a round of golf. Garth has gone full business dad. His adventuring days are over. There was a nice touch showing Rokk getting up with hands on his lower back after sitting for a while - they're all a bit older.

The Vi-Rokk apology scene was emotional and cleared up that it wasn't all on Violet; Rokk regretted joining his planet's attack on Imsk.

The Glorith-Trapper scene emphasized her cold-hearted ambition but I don't think it added anything to the on-going story. I do wonder if Mordru is equally aware of the other timelines, however.

Some thought went into the backgrounds. Kathoon is dark and Lydda's room looks like it's from a fantasy castle set - reminiscent of Tharn. The Lightning Plantation quarters are full of plants and a little yellow Legion clubhouse sits on a table. (It might have been cooler to have the snowglobe from Issue #5.) The Dominator ship has plants as well, emphasizing their plant-based technology.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980497 01/07/20 11:04 AM
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v4 Issue 13

Lots of plot movement and storytelling density in an issue where the main storyline is front and centre, and not derailed by edicts or fill ins. You can spot the difference, as there’s an unnecessary Super-mandated epilogue to the issue.

The introduction of Kent last issue gave the post Roxxas book a breath of Superboy-esque fresh air. That continues here, as he valiantly takes on the Persuader to save the lives of ill kids (and probably their orphaned space-puppies).

Kent was originally going to be a descendant of some sort of Superboy (I think), and there were to be a few Super-plots going on. While all that is swept away, we get nods such as his affectation of putting on his Clark Kent glasses…of space. The Super-office, who will have read the issue to make sure their changes went in, must have fumed a bit. Having Laurel in the issue, must have annoyed them too. I hope so. TMK had managed to create two extremely likeable characters under tough circumstances.

The Persuader continues to impress as a character. It would have been so easy over the years to have him become a bit of an acme-thug. Yet, he’s as genuine a threat here as he’s been under previous good Legion writers.

Kent doesn’t beat him outright. He uses some guile to do it, and that makes it a sweeter victory. It also matches a galaxy where victories are hard won, as they were with Jo, rather than being well within the powers of a Mon-El or Superboy.

The Persuader has blocked off routes around him to prevent any surprise SP attacks. That keeps them at bay, as he carves a path to his target. But one SP officer is Gim Allon. Following the disbanding of the Legion, he’s returned to the SP. He was an SP cadet at one stage (also in his origin story was Cusimano, who gets a cameo this issue. Yay!) He still wants to use his Colossal Boy powers, but is dissuaded by other SP units. Now, they might have a better grasp of structural engineering than previous background characters in the book. But there’s definitely a feeling that “Hands On” Allon isn’t welcomed.

That’s a bit inconsistent when compared to how happy the Winathian SP were to have Legion assistance. It’s more in linked with Earth SPs or perhaps Rimborian ones. With all SPs looking the same in the book, their reaction seems pretty variable. Gim has a good record in taking care of the Persuader, and it might have been nice to see his “oh no, not here” response to a giant fist, bashing through the wall. The battle lasts multiple pages giving readers a Kent spotlight as way of introduction.

TMK actually raise the profile of a Fatal Five member from Acme-Thug. Mano was really too deadly to last long in a battle. He originally had some super speed to go with his hand-of-death. Later, he was being punched out in a couple of panels. Sarya wouldn’t really consider him for membership in her new Five. Following his Mordruverse appearance, he’s the guy hiring talent for someone related to the original Starfinger. I never took to the shoulder-padded version, so this is an improvement for me.

With the Persuader beaten, we learn that there is a call out, of sorts, to ex-Legionnaires. Just think of the panels we could have saved, if Cham had used his Omnicom to make a few calls in #1. smile

#1: Cham makes calls. Legion reforms. Dominion not happy and release Roxxas. #2: Legionnaires fill in salary forms on Winath only to be attacked by Roxxas. Roxxas escapes to Trom where he confronts Jan, who saves his life. The End.

In a nice touch, Ivy picks up only part of Kent speaking to Gim about his enthusiasm to rejoin. Her heartbroken reaction still cuts. Giffen’s use of repeating panels very effectively shows Kent’s despondency (the technique does have its uses). The “enjoy your flight” dialogue is one of a number of lovely touches this issue.

Jo is trying to find his way to UP civilisation. He worries that he’s on a Khund/Dominion fringe world or perhaps that the two races aren’t enemies as he supposed. In a darker take on the Superman origin, the two kindhearted farmers are shot when *they* encounter a being from space. The Legion haven’t given him up for dead quite yet.

On Earth, Circe tells the Dominators that their game is up. With Roxxas talking there’s no way to keep things quiet. We learn that there’s a Dominion battle wagon in orbit. Looking out for peace loving Earthers against terrorist threats no doubt. The Dominators seem to think that Circe and Dirk will be able to convince people that Roxxas is some sort of insane maniac who no one would take serio…actually, this might no be so difficult after all. smile This should man that we get to see Dirk make some tough choices. From what I recall, it doesn’t quite work out that way.

Laurel’s absence from Winath is explained (as Cramer remembered). I do think they forgot about her, as she wasn’t originally going to be part of that finale. Giffen is quite cute about it, but there are enough glimpses to show that Laurel is wearing a modified Supergirl outfit. Take that Super-Office!

There’s a nicely executed section moving the focus from Rokk to Garth to Brin to Kono to Vi who then meets with Rokk.

Along the way we ‘re reminded that “Things aren’t so simple anymore… The Legion doesn’t have the kind of friends it used to” ; It doesn’t seem that Kono knows that Furball is Brin; That Garth has an idea for the new HQ and that a Vi looking at Kono’s brashness is going to have a pay off when she does meet her younger self.

The big plot here is Vi’s encounter with Rokk. It’s very well done. Each harbours guilt over their own actions. Each expects the other to hate them for what they’ve done. But in the end, there’s tears and support. Hopefully, some of the burdens they’ve been carrying have been lifted. Rokk’s letter to Lydda tells of the scar over Vi’s eye. Vi was honest enough to tell Rokk, she got it as she was present at Venado Bay. What she has kept back is that Rokk was the one who gave her the scar. It’s touching the writers have got such a grasp on the characters that they know what they simply couldn’t bring themselves to say.

Lydda’s reaction to the return of the legion mirrors Rokk’s letters ( a nice combo of actual writing with Omnicoms) to her back in issue 3. We’re getting a number of reinforcing scenes, or closing parts to opening plotlines in the volume. The ending here feels almost like a second “Legion is back” closure. It shows off the level of thinking behind the volume and its execution, despite all the interruptions.
New editor Dan Raspler makes sure that readers get a grasp on what the galaxy looks like this issue. It’s nicely done as a situation abstract from Marla to Cham. As a reader primer, it could have been put into any of the opening issues. I wonder if TMK were wanting the reader to make all the connections in those issues, rather than being told ahead of time where the lay of the land was. Then again, they put in that “Here’s what half the cast have been up to” page in issue 3. So, giving things away didn’t seem to bother them then. Perhaps this would have helped in #1 for some readers.

Following that, we get a mandated by the Superman office scene. Because TMK hadn’t explicitly referenced *every* single part of the Legionverse that existed in the post Crisis superman book, they were forced to do it here. As mentioned before, despite working in a company dependant on imagination, petulance demands it appear in-panel or it doesn’t exist.

At the end of #5 Glorith took the place of the Time Trapper. That included all of his works, altered through her personality. But the Super-office wanted confirmation that the Trapper had created the Pocket Universe. So, Glorith has to visit The Trapper (who had been replaced and written out) to remind us that he had done this. Then, they had Glorith absorb that part of him too. Even though she had already done it. Making lemonade from Super-lemons, as usual, TMK use Glorith’s absorption of the remaining Trapper-power to launch into a Glorith plotline. I like the effects used for Glorith. Her eyes and her dematerialisation. She’s a lot more calculating here, than in some of her more flighty bits of dialogue (text pieces and the RPG come to mind).

The issue also came with a lovely Legion poster. It showed the team as it was planned at this point. It was the first real glimpse at their uniforms. It was always intended that each would be personalised to ensure the characters remained distinctive. Little things like Jo not wearing a red shirt and Kent not having the starfield top are minor, considering the detail. Personalities also come out. Reep and Devlin are big Legion-nerds. Ayla’s uncovered legs show that Winath hasn’t left her completely. Laurel keeps a slightly more modest bottom half than earlier appearances. Kent looks protectively over Ivy. But Brin also does this for Ayla (still torch-carrying?). Jo looks fondly at Kono too, as the kid he brought into the team. We had a text piece about how important the AAA rating for the outfits were. Seeing them modified here makes me wonder if some of them are space-worthy.

But the fun part is like reading an old Amazing Heroes preview for a title that never appears or has been heavily modified. The team here never really gelled into a one that would pose for the picture shown. Devlin and Ivy were the big teasers. Ivy never joined at all. Perhaps because the plot went another way. Perhaps because having set up a darker galaxy, they shouldn’t be taking a kid into combat.
It would be a long time before Devlin got his powers. By that time, Cham would be joining another team. Some of the others were increasingly peripheral in the growing Earth-based plot that would take over the book.

It was a packed issue. Having both 12 and 13 push the main subplots forward at pace made me really excited for what was to come.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980529 01/08/20 12:00 PM
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It's the state of the nation, state of the nation...



Oh!

Oops, wrong state! blush

Review of LSH v4 #13 coming tomorrow.


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980582 01/09/20 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Cramer
A lot of unfinished business from previous issues is wrapped up and the Legion is set to return.

I get a feeling of a double closure when I’m reading these issues. As if they planned for the end to be issue 12 (a la Watchmen) and made it, but due to space issues put a few more things in issue 13, when the arc really closed.

Quote
After the initial five-page fight between Kent and the Persuader, it's a rapidly paced issue, with no more than one or two pages, sometimes a couple of panels, devoted to each character. Apart from the fight, nothing big happens, but everyone is moving forward from here.


Originally Posted by Cramer
I did find the fight scene too drawn out. We don't learn much about Kent Shakespeare except that he's very strong. He bleeds and he can't breathe underwater, so he's not Superman.

I enjoy the fight scenes in these opening issues quite a bit. I must just like the Giffen choreography. smile I really liked his work in previous volumes too on that front. Despite it being the Legion, there have been no big group fights as such. I think some of the fights have also been character spotlights, such as Jo & Kono back in #2. With Kent, I think Giffen’s point is to show us how vulnerable the v4 Superboy stand in is. Which make’s the Persuader all the more threatening.

Originally Posted by Cramer
There's another whole page devoted to him thinking about a conversation with Ivy, trying to explain why he's leaving, which could have been handled in fewer panels, for my taste.


Like the fight scenes, I just like this technique when it’s done well. He’s *really* left to sink into his misery at what should be a happy time for him. Fortunately for Kent, he’ll meet up with Sentence Structure Sue, resulting in him not putting his foot in things in future. Brett Ewins was another artist to make use of the technique. I’ve no doubt both used them for time saving at times too.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Since Ivy was included in the group poster, she must have been intended to join. We don't know her powers at this point and it's a moot point, since IIRC she never leaves Quarantine.

I’m not too upset by that. She’s a lot younger than the Adventure Legionnaires, and it’s hard to imagine an older v4 Legion putting her in any danger. Her plant-based powers would have been key to unlocking Dominion technology. Perhaps her place in the plot was taken by Chlorophyll Kid?

Originally Posted by Cramer
There was a nice touch showing Rokk getting up with hands on his lower back after sitting for a while - they're all a bit older.


Just imagine if Rokk had to face the Persuader. The villain leans on his axe panting for breath as Rokk asks for a comfort break so he can take his meds.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Vi-Rokk apology scene was emotional and cleared up that it wasn't all on Violet; Rokk regretted joining his planet's attack on Imsk.


While there’s a lot going on, I’d still have liked to have seen more tension between planets in the UP. This issue’s breakdown of things was a good step in that direction. Kono’s planet would have been another good place for that to be explored.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Glorith-Trapper scene emphasized her cold-hearted ambition but I don't think it added anything to the on-going story. I do wonder if Mordru is equally aware of the other timelines, however.


I think it’s an early (if not first outside the annual) showing of Glorith in the new post-Mordruverse continuity. It leads up nicely to upcoming stories too. I think it power of this Mordru isn’t at the same heights as the other one. It’ sitting that his lust for power could be partly because he can almost touch it in a different timeline. Always just out of his reach, yet guiding him in his actions. A couple of artefacts of a feudal UP would be a nice touch in later issues with him.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Some thought went into the backgrounds. Kathoon is dark and Lydda's room looks like it's from a fantasy castle set - reminiscent of Tharn. The Lightning Plantation quarters are full of plants and a little yellow Legion clubhouse sits on a table. (It might have been cooler to have the snowglobe from Issue #5.) The Dominator ship has plants as well, emphasizing their plant-based technology.


Good spot on the backgrounds. I’d noticed the darkness on Kathoon with a smile, but it shows the depth put in by Giffen in this volume. The language used by the characters, and the personalisation of their uniforms are other touches. It might not have worked out the way they wanted, but the sheer investment in time and creativity is impressive.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980605 01/10/20 04:39 AM
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On LSH v.4 #13

Wow.

Things actually, like...HAPPENED in this issue. At a reasonably FAST pace.

Thank you, Mr. Raspler!

My opinion of the fight scenes leans closer to Cramey's than Thoth's. I also have to wonder why poor Laurel gets only *one page* to fight an armada of Khunds while the smaller-scale Kent/Persuader fight is given five times as much room.

Kent has never done anything for me. I don't hate him, I'm just indifferent. I get the feeling that if we had seen more of his experiences in the Legion during the Gap, I might have warmed to him more. shrug

The Vi/Rokk scene was well-executed, but the fact that he caused her physical harm *and* she's the partner of the woman he infamously hit in the face during the Bronze Age...

I *almost* enjoyed Giffen's art in the Glorith epilogue (maybe since he didn't have to draw any pesky backgrounds, he could put in a bit more effort than usual in the faces and such.) But that sequence, like the one that opens the issue, gets more pages than necessary, in my opinion. Still, not bad for an editorially mandated patch.

7 out of 10 Taryns: CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980643 01/11/20 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth
The Persuader continues to impress as a character. It would have been so easy over the years to have him become a bit of an acme-thug. Yet, he’s as genuine a threat here as he’s been under previous good Legion writers.


True - and also mentioned in one of the text pieces that he's gone a bit off the rails since Sarya's death - so even more dangerous. Here, however, he's rational, determined and effective. Not enough to succeed but nothing like Roxxas-style off the rails.

Quote
He still wants to use his Colossal Boy powers, but is dissuaded by other SP units. Now, they might have a better grasp of structural engineering than previous background characters in the book. But there’s definitely a feeling that “Hands On” Allon isn’t welcomed.

That’s a bit inconsistent when compared to how happy the Winathian SP were to have Legion assistance. It’s more in linked with Earth SPs or perhaps Rimborian ones. With all SPs looking the same in the book, their reaction seems pretty variable. Gim has a good record in taking care of the Persuader, and it might have been nice to see his “oh no, not here” response to a giant fist, bashing through the wall. The battle lasts multiple pages giving readers a Kent spotlight as way of introduction.


I didn't get that inconsistency either. Maybe Gim has screwed up in the past when he went giant? It does give Kent the spotlight, though.

Quote
The big plot here is Vi’s encounter with Rokk. It’s very well done. Each harbours guilt over their own actions. Each expects the other to hate them for what they’ve done. But in the end, there’s tears and support. Hopefully, some of the burdens they’ve been carrying have been lifted. Rokk’s letter to Lydda tells of the scar over Vi’s eye. Vi was honest enough to tell Rokk, she got it as she was present at Venado Bay. What she has kept back is that Rokk was the one who gave her the scar. It’s touching the writers have got such a grasp on the characters that they know what they simply couldn’t bring themselves to say.


It is very well written and such a deeply emotional subject. That Vi kept secret Rokk's direct action causing her scar adds considerable depth to her character. Not all anger and lashing out anymore.

Quote
Following that, we get a mandated by the Superman office scene. Because TMK hadn’t explicitly referenced *every* single part of the Legionverse that existed in the post Crisis superman book, they were forced to do it here. As mentioned before, despite working in a company dependant on imagination, petulance demands it appear in-panel or it doesn’t exist.


Was that really mandated by the Superman office? That explains a lot. I liked the scene, but it struck me as unnecessary.

Quote
But the fun part is like reading an old Amazing Heroes preview for a title that never appears or has been heavily modified. The team here never really gelled into a one that would pose for the picture shown.


Agreed. Kind of a shame, they all look so upbeat - especially Mysa, dolled up and looking strong. The Brin standing over Ayla is a nice touch, didn't click with me until you mentioned it. At least they didn't have him following her around like a puppy dog.

Originally Posted by Ann
My opinion of the fight scenes leans closer to Cramey's than Thoth's. I also have to wonder why poor Laurel gets only *one page* to fight an armada of Khunds while the smaller-scale Kent/Persuader fight is given five times as much room.


I'm just not big on fight scenes and admit I don't often do them the justice of close reading. We did get Laurel fighting Khunds in an earlier issue, but it wasn't much of a fight. She has yet to meet her match.

Quote
Kent has never done anything for me. I don't hate him, I'm just indifferent. I get the feeling that if we had seen more of his experiences in the Legion during the Gap, I might have warmed to him more.


Same here. I don't recall him having much personality - but we'll see in the issues going forward.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980658 01/11/20 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ann
I also have to wonder why poor Laurel gets only *one page* to fight an armada of Khunds while the smaller-scale Kent/Persuader fight is given five times as much room.


They had probably planned year two off with the introduction of Kent, including his spotlight. With a collaboration there can be a little communal push as all involved want their guys to get introduced.

Originally Posted by Ann
Kent has never done anything for me. I don't hate him, I'm just indifferent. I get the feeling that if we had seen more of his experiences in the Legion during the Gap, I might have warmed to him more. Shrug.


He has a couple of further moments, but this introduction is possibly about as good as it gets. Much like Kono in 2/3. I preferred Celeste’s chats with Cham more than her ill-defined Lantern stint too.
With Kent, I got the feeling a lot of his background was tied up in the Super-Mythos. That won’t have helped. But so many characters didn’t fulfil their potential, that’s not the only reason.

Originally Posted by Ann
The Vi/Rokk scene was well-executed, but the fact that he caused her physical harm *and* she's the partner of the woman he infamously hit in the face during the Bronze Age...


I hadn’t thought of that connection.

Originally Posted by Ann
I *almost* enjoyed Giffen's art in the Glorith epilogue (maybe since he didn't have to draw any pesky backgrounds, he could put in a bit more effort than usual in the faces and such.)


I think it’s something to do with the colouring, in that sequence. Saving you from liking Giffen’s art smile

Originally Posted by Cramer
I didn't get that inconsistency either. Maybe Gim has screwed up in the past when he went giant? It does give Kent the spotlight, though.


From the RPG, Gim is practically the last classic Legionnaire left standing. Yet, I always though he’d retired through injury. I think that might have been the Adult Legion story. Levitz having him blasted by Starfinger and others and requiring surgery, seemed to have been leading up to that.

Originally Posted by Cramer
It is very well written and such a deeply emotional subject. That Vi kept secret Rokk's direct action causing her scar adds considerable depth to her character. Not all anger and lashing out anymore.


nod

Originally Posted by Cramer
Was that really mandated by the Superman office? That explains a lot. I liked the scene, but it struck me as unnecessary.


Yeah,. The initial tantrum with Waid mandated the removal of Super-continuity retrospectively. TMK did that with the spiffy Mordruverse. But the parts of the Super-mythos that were post-crisis, and therefore canon (of the month) had to be kept. Those would be the Byrne issues with his Fantastic (Four of) Legionnaires going back in time and the Pocket -Superboy. That meant the Pocket Universe had to exist, and be seen to exist. And explained, so the Super-muppets could see themselves get their way. Superboy had to be mentioned, even though they had insisted that he was completely removed.

Now, Lar Gand takes over the mantle of Kal El. A mysterious Superboy pops up much later in the continuity. The Legion like him very much, but he dies shortly after his introduction battling… I was going to say the Trapper. But it’s probably now Glorith.

Originally Posted by Cramer
At least they didn't have him following her around like a puppy dog.


smile I think Brin gets a whiny puppy scene around #50.

Originally Posted by Cramer
I'm just not big on fight scenes and admit I don't often do them the justice of close reading.


From your mention of the Persuader text piece, I realised I’ve been skipping some of the text pieces, this time round. That, and my enjoyment of gritty, violent scenes can only mean I change my LW name to Cave Lad!


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980727 01/14/20 03:33 AM
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.us]

Legion of Super-Heroes #14 by Tom & Mary Bierbaum & Keith Giffen, art by Keith Giffen, Al Gordon & Carlos Garzon, Letters John Workman, Colours Tom McCraw, "Slave to the Rhythm" Dan Raspler

Tenzil, Taryn and Brek are kidnapped by Evillo for the sole purpose of allowing his daughters, Styx and Stiletta, to meet Brek. Evillo is now married to Eve Aries (Saturn Queen) but has designs on Taryn. When Tenzil intervenes, he's sent to Evillo's Realm of Darkness, populated by ex-wives, Sugyn and assorted lost souls. Sugyn and Tenzil work together to destroy the Realm and escape. Meanwhile, Bismoll's opposition party has declared Tenzil dead and given his Senate seat to Taryn. Brek stays on Tartarus to teach the daughters to use their powers (note: not necessarily to be superheroes); Tenzil heads to Winath.

Even editor Raspler gets in on the jokes, changing his title to "Slave to the Rhythm".

Jo tries to escape into space by stealing an antique-to-him ship and hopes to make it to Rimbor.

Garth gives Rokk and Cham a video tour of a junkyard asteroid he owns which could serve as the Legion's new HQ. In a text memo, Loomis evaluates the suitability of the space for the Legion.

Comments:
As a story, the issue is amusing, although it's mostly treading ground now that the "Legion is back". I love the twist that Brek is the girls' sought-after hero, not Tenzil. This effectively removes Brek from the on-going narrative. (I think we do see Styx and Stilleta much later in the series, when it became barely readable.) Taryn continues as the adult in the room and, while it's satisfying to see her accorded the Senate seat, I believe this is also her last appearance. The rest of Tenzil's adventure is a silly romp, with some eye-rolling gags, but does give us more examples of former villains cooperating with the Legion (Sugyn) and more or less respecting the law (Evillo, worried about invoking U.P. sanctions).

Jo's story is moving slowly. For someone so clever at figuring out deep mysteries, it hasn't occurred to him that he might be in the past. While he's no student of history, he does still know how to steal a ride. I was wondering where the Dominators' disks went; it appears, in these scenes, that they wear their disks on clothing, not embedded in their large foreheads.

Keeping in the spirit of Tenzil, the junkyard asteroid has most recently been rented to a space bordello. It strikes me as odd that Garth and Imra would have chosen space junk as a means to riches. I can just hear the argument that must have ensued when that failed business was rented out to a "massage parlour" - although it could have been practical-minded Imra that made the decision. More of the strange bedfellows syndrome that seems to pervade the post-collapse U.P..

I just finished the book Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow, about the difficulties in getting the Harvey Weinstein story published. This made me view the Evillo-Taryn scene in a bit of a different light, since Evillo even looks a bit like Harvey. However, Taryn is capable of defending herself, Tenzil intervenes to help and Evillo is more of a would-be Romeo (and an acknowledged villain) than a protected and enabled serial sexual assaulter. Regardless, times have changed; that scene would surely be written differently today.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980743 01/14/20 02:06 PM
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v4 Issue 14

Although we’re 14 issues into the volume, there’s a feeling that this is a team still coming together. Laurel, Kent, Tenzil, Brek, Taryn and Jo are all subplots heading towards a team that is only now looking at a base of operations.

It might be worth thinking about the first twelve issues as the reestablishment of the Legion’s ideals in a dark galaxy. A testing of them to see if those who lived by them, still did so. That they still believed and would fight for them against higher odds. That resulted in 3 ex-Legionnaires keeping Roxxas alive.

This arc has the Dominator’s control of Earth waiting to be resolved, and perhaps a reformed Legion reaching out into the UP. It’s a far cry from nearly all neatly rostered and increasingly pigeonholed super teams over the years. Not everyone we see here gets a stay on Talus.

Jo’s subplot moves slowly. It’s taking time for him to figure out what the readers already know. Perhaps Brainy figuring out the time distortion should have been ditched, or have the Legion really mourn him. I know I enjoyed it at the time, and I can now see that the gradual steps are (in keeping with the book’s subplot approach and) in service of increasingly big reveals to come.

The new HQ has the shape of a classic Legion HQ, while still being grimy enough for Giffen to enjoy drawing it. It comes with subplots of its own, although no sign of a Mordru in the basement. Centuries of lost technology (at the time, I thought it would be a gateway to get Jo back). Apparently, that’s something Brainy’s keen on. I’d have thought Rokk or Ayla.

The issue is well put together. The dialogue is superb giving a laugh at every scene, but matching it with horror and tension along the way. It has the framing of an old EC comic, with the ex-wives getting retribution on Evillo. There are loads of little Legion in-jokes. These aren’t necessary to know, nor do they get in the way of any enjoyment, if they’re not spotted. Evillo was creepy the first time I read this. His sexual assault on Cal is made worse by his belief that he can continue unopposed. Anyone getting in his way on the planet is effectively killed. This is the guy running a world in the United Planets. His end in this issue was too good for him. Tenzil was right in the old days. Calorie Queen would have made a solid Legionnaire. Tenzil has shown some of the skills he has to get out of tough situations such as Tartarus and freeing Brek. Saturn Queen may now be the Queen of Tartarus. She wasn’t a member of the Legion of Supervillains, and this might be someone to replace the weight of the Emerald Empress.

Being a Tenzil issue, it must have been some form of fill-in. Although, there are tell tales of Giffen in the plot, and he ended up drawing it. Perhaps something else dropped away giving him time. Perhaps at that stage, they weren’t sure how long he’d last on the book and planned a fill in accordingly. It’s always remained an enjoyable issue. With all of TMK working on it, it’s perhaps the strongest of the fill-ins. Although previous circumstances meant a lot of rushing was required.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980758 01/14/20 03:39 PM
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I think all three of us concur on this issue (and, of course, it'd be wonderful if *more* people chimed in -- because "yea" or "nay," it's all good.)

I like it better than the previous Tenzil spotlight...precisely because *this time,* it's not just Tenzil hogging (quite literally, I suppose) almost every blank space on every page. I find it very Silver Age-y in its boundless array of weird, wacky, whimsical ideas -- and it builds on the Legion's past rather than simply rehashing some of the creators' favorite old bits. And, for change, the humor does not come across to me as self-impressed or smug. Nor the Easter egg-ing. It's just plain *fun.*

But it's not perfect, either. And that's because of the squinky inappropriate advances made on Calorie Queen by Evillo, as already noted by both Cramey and Thoth in their reviews. Yes, here we have yet another nugget of pure yuck which I had blocked in my mind before this re-read, and which contradicts the 5YL Era's reputation as female-friendly. That the scene is brief, and not graphic, is too little to compensate for its very existence -- *especially* because it's played as semi-comedic.

Shame, really, because otherwise this would have been the first Volume 4 issue since #1 that I'd have given 8 out of 10 Taryns.

A still-solid 7 is what I do give it: CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen

BTW, it wasn't either of her 5YL appearances that made me a fan of Taryn. That would be her only previous appearance, in one of the few Post-Cockrum Bronze Age issues I genuinely like. She may have ended up being humiliated by the Legionnaires, but so did the other Rejects -- and she's the only one I even *felt bad about* her humiliation. Besides, it was obvious she was going to recover nicely and go on to bigger and better things (even if most of those things happened in her fans' imaginations.)


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980775 01/15/20 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth
The new HQ has the shape of a classic Legion HQ, while still being grimy enough for Giffen to enjoy drawing it. It comes with subplots of its own, although no sign of a Mordru in the basement. Centuries of lost technology (at the time, I thought it would be a gateway to get Jo back). Apparently, that’s something Brainy’s keen on. I’d have thought Rokk or Ayla.


Grimy enough for Giffen - good one! Never occurred to me that the old tech could have tied into getting Jo back - that would have been brilliant (and might have taken some Brainy brilliance to engineer). Brainy seems to take the role of chief problem-solver very much to heart, maybe how he sees his own worth to the team and the universe. Or perhaps he just can't stand an unsolved mystery.

Quote
Anyone getting in his way on the planet is effectively killed. This is the guy running a world in the United Planets. His end in this issue was too good for him.


The U.P. is still in some disarray, so one might expect they avert their gaze from Evillo's planet. However, there was something in the Baxter series about letting Lythyl be Lythyl under the "Freedom of Behaviour Act". Evillo may have operated with impunity all along.

Quote
Saturn Queen may now be the Queen of Tartarus. She wasn’t a member of the Legion of Supervillains, and this might be someone to replace the weight of the Emerald Empress.


I forget how she and Tenzil get together later, but to have her instead become the new Empress-level villain in the 5YL universe would have been fun. She seems pretty balanced, mentally - not the psycho of the last Levitz version. Seize control of Tartarus (while Evillo's ex-wives are taking their revenge) and onwards and upwards from there.

Originally Posted by Ann
I like it better than the previous Tenzil spotlight...precisely because *this time,* it's not just Tenzil hogging (quite literally, I suppose) almost every blank space on every page.


Yes, Tenzil is best served as a side dish, or with a buffet.

Quote
BTW, it wasn't either of her 5YL appearances that made me a fan of Taryn. That would be her only previous appearance, in one of the few Post-Cockrum Bronze Age issues I genuinely like. She may have ended up being humiliated by the Legionnaires, but so did the other Rejects -- and she's the only one I even *felt bad about* her humiliation. Besides, it was obvious she was going to recover nicely and go on to bigger and better things (even if most of those things happened in her fans' imaginations.)


She was the only one of that group of challengers who had a better version of their Legion counterpart's power, given that she had extra strength in addition to super-chomping - and she wasn't a sourpuss about it all. Her revival in 5YL, albeit all too short, made eminent sense.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980777 01/15/20 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
She was the only one of that group of challengers who had a better version of their Legion counterpart's power, given that she had extra strength in addition to super-chomping - and she wasn't a sourpuss about it all. Her revival in 5YL, albeit all too short, made eminent sense.


I liked how we learned more about the Bismollans from her introduction, and she was super-powered *by the standards of her race.* It's her that got me on my 'Heroes of Other Worlds' kick, making different sorts of Bismollans, Imskians, Durlans, Titanians, etc. with talents or specializations other than the generic ones that every member of their race has.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980806 01/16/20 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cramey
Tenzil is best served as a side dish, or with a buffet.


Beautifully put.


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980808 01/16/20 10:59 AM
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side dish!? buffet!? That gives me an appetite, and you don't....


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
thoth lad #980810 01/16/20 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad
side dish!? buffet!? That gives me an appetite, and you don't....


lol


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980855 01/17/20 05:05 PM
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I just finished reading issue 15, the first installment of the Khund storyline. I feel so pumped right now, I absolutely had to post about it! Even a short post like this one.

*Really* excited about the upcoming discussion! nod


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980970 01/21/20 04:02 AM
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Legion of Super-Heroes #15 by Tom & Mary Bierbaum & Keith Giffen, art by Brandon Peterson, Keith Giffen, Al Gordon & Carlos Garzon, Letters John Workman, Colours Tom McCraw, "On the Lam" Dan Raspler

The Legion settles into their new HQ, with electrical problems. Brainy is distracted by Laurel and Rond.

Khunds invade and easily conquer Orando, using "Red Terror", an air-borne chemical weapon (known only to have been given to them by their Demon Mother) which causes terrible fear in those who breathe it.

King John appeals to the Legion for help, since U.P. worlds are capitulating to the Khund advance. The Khunds need pluridium; large supplies are to be found on Xolnar and Talok VIII, so one of those is expected to be the next target.

On Venegar, Legionnaires fight the Khunds. Vi loses a leg in an attack but wants to keep fighting.

Cham uses his espionage contacts to procure a sample of the Red Terror formula and find out that the Khunds will attack Talok next.

The Khunds have made an alliance with Talok's hill people, much to the concern of Shadow Champion Grev Mallor. He is angered that Lady Memory, his wife by politically-mandated marriage, does nothing to stop this. Valor and Tasmia arrive to help.

However, the next Khund target is Xolnar, base for the U.P. Militia Academy run by the Taines and some of their Academy students. Berta (Nightwind) and her team are killed in a Khund ambush.

Jo makes it to Rimbor, only to realize that, since the planet is entirely deserted, he must be 5000 years in the past.

Civil unrest erupts on Earth after the Roxxas revelations. The Dominators intend to quell it harshly. Dirk Morgna sees the ship sinking and tries to get off.

Comments:
Wow! High stakes, high action, simmering emotional drama. We get a live view of the state of the Galaxy with scenes from various planets, more or less familiar to students of Legion history. There were a lot of cooks in the kitchen this time, possibly prompting Raspler to be "on the lam" (or wishing he was).

The story starts out in a light mood as the Legionnaires work on and explore their HQ, but quickly moves into much darker territory. Giffen is not the penciller on this issue and the 9-panel grid is gone - his decision or Brandon Peterson's?

The U.P. is shown to be very weak; some worlds have left to become independent. There's even an electrical failure during King John's presentation. The Khunds pick an easy target, though, to test their Red Terror weapon. Orando has been kept far behind in the technology business; even the military only have ancient weapons. No match for the Khunds, with or without the Terror, but probably sufficient to keep the peasants in line.

I like that the Khunds are shown to have a strict code of honour in battle, but that there is dissent in the ranks. It suggests a possible weak point in their future advance. It's not clear if they were less affected by the Magic Wars than the United Planets and need the Red Terror, presented as something of a supernatural gift from their Demon Mother, to gain the advantage over the U.P. - or if they just better survived the collapse of technology. It was explained earlier that the U.P. suffered economic collapse because of over-extended resource demands; possibly the Khunds' tech was more sustainable and anti-fragile.

For some reason, Marte Allon is there as an advisor to Projectra. Does Projectra have plans to bring democracy to Orando?

I'm mystified as to why the Legion would bring Mysa into battle, unless she was just there to man the ship while the others were fighting. She's clearly in a breakdown; she can't even stand to listen to the discussion of whether to join the war or not.

It's great to see Kahnya, the former Lady Memory, again but the arranged marriage to Grev for political purposes looks like an unhappy one. Maybe they're just having one of those bad arguments when we get our first glimpse of them... Then ex-Prince Harry Tasmia shows up with Valor and one senses that the battle may not be lost. (I do wonder who Tasmia would have been forced to marry had she remained Shadow Champion, or if she would have chucked the position to stay with Lar.)

Cham's Khundish informant, Orlak, certainly doesn't look like a Khund. Maybe a very nerdy Khund, who was bullied as a child. Could there be a Legion of Khund Rejects who would support the U.P.?

Dirk, sadly but true to current form, is primarily upset with his own looming fall from grace rather than the troubles Earth's people are facing.

Minor note: on Venegar (page 14), there's a militia guy with a green headband who really makes me think of Lyle Norg.

After all these years, I finally realized that the covers of issues 15-17 form one continuous - and very striking - image.

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com][Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980971 01/21/20 04:22 AM
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LSH v4 #15

Manna from the sky, that's what this issue feels like to me (basically, the polar opposite of Red Terror. LOL) After all the pokey and turgid, if sometimes amusingly goofy, proceedings in most of the previous issues of this volume, we finally get to the ACTION!

Guest pencil artist Brandon Peterson was a reliable if bland journeyman, but I'm okay with that. Without the strict grid of Giffen's style, the action sequences are given room to stretch out, to breathe.

As Cramey mentions in her review above, one of the choicest bits is the momentary tension within the Khund High Command on Page 9 -- Honor vs Pragmatism. Yeah, it's a familiar space-opera trope, but to me, it's all in the execution, which is faultless.

Vi's injury adds a touch of reality to the S/F proceedings. Ayla's stoic about it, but you can tell emotions are churning within her.

Chuck and Lu have cleaned up nicely over the 5 Year Gap. He's grown out that horrible 'stache into a nicely-trimmed full beard. She's grown out that dreadful crop into a shoulder-length 'do both functional and attractive.

The Lady Memory/Grev sequence made me cringe. The creative team's cynical view that she, the supposed fiery idealist, was a shallow and opportunistic brat all along...that grates with me. It's a disservice to one of Levitz's better creations.

Very nice storytelling on Page 21, cross-cutting both visually and verbally between Cham and the informant and the ambush on Xolnar.

Circe in blue-face. eek She truly has no shame. Dirk's not much better, although he does seem to be rediscovering his spine.

It is now my pleasure to award this issue 8 out of 10 Taryns, the first rating above 7 since the first issue of this volume:

CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen CalorieQueen


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #980990 01/21/20 02:10 PM
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v4 Issue 15

Giffen has a framing sequence (and plot assist this issue). The potential Rond/Querl/Laurel triangle opens up the issue. He loves Laurel, while Rond has to be amongst his closest friends. As Kara retcon, we know how much she gets under Brainy’s skin. We get moments with this subplot, but it’s one that I regret more not being done with. Some good writing updates us on Celeste’s condition and Jo’s place in the timestream. I had wondered why Brainy didn’t identify the energy as Oan. They had ample opportunities for readings. I get the feeling the book wasn’t keen to advertise its DCU links (while sneaking Superboy, Supergirl and Lantern substitutes into the team.)

Brainy mentions his set up in the new HQ, which gives us a lead into Loomis trying to rewire the place, with mixed results. Legion prisoners may find their cells catering for a different sort of prisoner. A huge Legion mystery ends the page! Who does Brainy bump into in the dark?!

Giffen closes the issue with Jo finding out that he’s back in time. It’s interesting that they haven’t sent him back to a populated time, or that he didn’t get straight to Earth for a mainstream crossover (or a lost Karate Kid team up). There’s some interesting historical bits on Rimbor and Khundia. The last scene shows the Dominators decide to crush human resistance on Earth. We see a display showing locations of that uprising. Elsewhere, Dirk tells Circe that a speech telling people everything’s OK isn’t going to work. Circe, who expressed the same sentiments to the Dominators, tells him to do as he’s told. We end with a literal spark of resistance in his eye.

But it’s not due to any hidden heroism (he’s more interested in a dialogue line in his TV show, than anything meaning it may have). It’s not due to any realisation about Earth’s people and what will happen to them. It’s because he’s in the huff after Circe’s rebuke. It’s because he’s having to do something he doesn’t want to, and he’s having a super sulk about it. Weirdly, Circe is still pretending to be people in Dirk’s fantasy life (which may include all the women on the team).

Sulks may be the reason T&M are on the plotting duties again. Giffen does contribute, but his absence impacts the storyline again. As with the Hunt for Roxxas (not reaching a TPB near you), we’re *told* about the resistance on Earth. We’re *told* that the Dominator-led Earthgov has fabricated evidence against Roxxas. But we’re not *shown* any of it. We might as well be watching the holo news to keep up with the plot.

I had expected year two of this volume to focus on Earth and its Liberation by the Legion. It’s the plot everything in the first year was leading up to. Instead, there’s a Khundian invasion. I probably felt it at the time, and can’t really shake it here, that the Khund plot wasn’t necessarily the one first envisioned. That, and the shift in art, makes it an uphill (well, maybe not that much. More of an up-incline) battle for me on this one. I do notice that Cleste, Bounty and Jan have been sent to Earth, so the Legion does seem to be doing something. I couldn’t tell you if we find out what though. smile

I guess the Khunds weren’t willing to wait for their place in the plot queue. smile There have certainly been rumblings, and they have been a presence in the book. We’ve also been given a clue to the Red Terror that they now wield. The name of their weapon reminds me of the Communist threat the Khunds were supposed to be a stand in for.

First to fall is Orando. I remember being very disappointed with Jeckie’s portrayal. We’d last seen her as Sensor Girl, leading a bloodied, but unbowed Legion into the post Magic Wars future. She seems to have none of those abilities here (RPG explains she voluntarily lost them, with Orando returning through its revolving dimension door to the UP). Her strength of character isn’t given either, before the Red Terror takes hold. Considering her sensory abilities as Projectra and then Sensor Girl, I’d have thought she, more than anyone could withstand the Terror. That might have made for an interesting subplot. No one seems immune to it. Extra creepiness comes from the Khundians happy to employ rape as a battle tactic. Only their leader prevents it. And you can’t imagine that being kept all across the planet. There seems to be a definite change in the way Khunds conduct themselves between some of the older soldiers and a newer breed. They play off their old “honour” as they make pacts with people on Talok. You get the feeling that those pacts aren’t going to be honoured.

It’s odd seeing the Legion sign up for combat duty in the UP militia. The Khunds have invaded before, and the Legion didn’t join an army to stop them. One of the scenarios in v2 #300, had the team make a similar decision. Superboy left and a gung ho Legion went into battle, resulting in deaths on both sides. We don’t see any reaction to possible violations of the code against killing. The Khunds seem to be quite happy trying to kill the Legionnaires. Vi loses a leg and Brin is badly wounded (Furball getting none of the super acrobatics it seems). It’s odd that the Legionnaires would be holding back under such circumstances. A trend in the volume, as noted before, is the Legion’s need to retreat. Here, they can’t hold Venegar from the Khunds or their red terror and have to withdraw. Going onto a battlefield against them seems daft, considering the powers they have. One big drawback is the lack of flight rings. We’ve had the telepathic earplugs appear, but not the rings. They could have fallen back on the flight belts or jetpacks we’ve seen before. Without them, they’re just cannon fodder as they don’t seem to understand the concept of cover.

We learn that the Khunds rely on Convenium to power their fleet, resulting in their being only two targets for their next attack: Xolnar, home of the UP Academy and Talok. Chuck and Lu make welcome returns on Xolnar. With the closure of the Legion Academy on Earth, they’ve shifted to training UP recruits instead. Nightwind and Power Boy have joined them as instructors. They also have a division of troops to help protect the site.

Lar Gand is all the protection Talok will need as he arrives with Tasmia to help Shadow Kid and his wife Lady Memory. Memory seems to be quite happy about her people signing up with the Khunds. She’s certainly not helping her husband who considers the marriage “accursed.” This is a Lar Gand who recovered from his wounds in v3 and went travelling with Tasmia. His return is a bit of an event as he’s a near demi-deity in this continuity.

It didn’t strike me at the time. But the Red Terror affecting people’s darkest thoughts & fears is a little similar to Lady Memory’s powers back in v3. That would have made the Talok situation a bit more complicated. Even if there was a chance it came from there.

Lar Gand appearing on Talok, makes me wonder why the Legion didn’t get in touch with him. Against Lar and Laurel, any Khund fleet would have some serious issues. Early Khund invasions came when the team wasn’t at its height in numbers. In this darker volume, sheer strength doesn’t seem to be enough. Cham seeks another route to find out the secrets of the Red Terror and the Khunds next target.

Cham is told the target is Talok, but an attack force wipes out a patrol on Xolnar. Among the dead is Nightwind. In the Five Year Gap, she became a Legionnaire. She was also quite a popular back up character, so its sad to see her die here.

There’s a lot packed into the issue. More than I had remembered. T&M with G keep it all going at a brisk pace too. The Giffen framing section gives us Jo lost in time; Celeste having fused with the Lantern power; I Gave Up Coluan Science For Lurv; A team off to Earth; Dominators vs Earth Resistance; Dirk ‘n Circe. The main story has the Khunds overrun the UP and a decent reason for the Legion to be drawn in. I’m sure about their approach, although Cham, Chuck ‘n Lu and Tas ‘n Lar show the reader that the team are operating on multiple fronts. It might not have been terrible to see the Legion think of a direct approach only to realise that Lar and Laurel would also be succeptible to the Terror (as Lar was to Lady Memory in v2)

Presumably Mysa will become important later on. Because it looks terrible to drag a clearly traumatised woman into a combat zone otherwise. There’s nothing wrong with Peterson’s art, but I much prefer Giffen’s. I still get a little disappointed with the change.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
thoth lad #981006 01/21/20 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad
v4 Issue 15

Sulks may be the reason T&M are on the plotting duties again. Giffen does contribute, but his absence impacts the storyline again. As with the Hunt for Roxxas (not reaching a TPB near you), were *told* about the resistance on Earth. Were *told* that the Dominator-led Earthgov has fabricated evidence against Roxxas. But were not *shown* any of it. We might as well be watching the holo news to keep up with the plot.


None of this had crossed my mind until reading Thoth's post. I guess in Annfie-Ville, less Giffen means more satisfaction. smile

Originally Posted by thoth lad
I had expected year two of this volume to focus on Earth and its Liberation by the Legion. Its the plot everything in the first year was leading up to. Instead, theres a Khundian invasion. I probably felt it at the time, and cant really shake it here, that the Khund plot wasnt necessarily the one first envisioned.


Yeah, well, them's the breaks for a bunch of arrogant, sulky, indecisive, pretentious creators who got too big for their britches. In my opinion. (And this is not to pin all the blame on them -- Waid and Carlin and others in the editorial positions acting like petulant schoolkids certainly didn't help.)

Less contentiously, I think the book might have been on the chopping block and needed a more traditional space-opera storyline just to save it from cancellation. My theory: Raspler was probably just being pragmatic, but the creators mistook it for philistinism. Of course, I could just as likely be wrong on all counts. shrug

Originally Posted by thoth lad
Lar Gand is all the protection Talok will need as he arrives with Tasmia to help Shadow Kid and his wife Lady Memory. Memory seems to be quite happy about her people signing up with the Khunds. Shes certainly not helping her husband who considers the marriage accursed....

...It didnt strike me at the time. But the Red Terror affecting peoples darkest thoughts & fears is a little similar to Lady Memorys powers back in v3. That would have made the Talok situation a bit more complicated. Even if there was a chance it came from there.


It's a good idea, but it seems to me that the creators did not think very highly of Lady Memory, and are blind to any real potential in her other than as a scapegoat for their smug cynicism about idealists.


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #981025 01/22/20 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cramer
It's not clear if they were less affected by the Magic Wars than the United Planets and need the Red Terror, presented as something of a supernatural gift from their Demon Mother, to gain the advantage over the U.P. - or if they just better survived the collapse of technology. It was explained earlier that the U.P. suffered economic collapse because of over-extended resource demands; possibly the Khunds' tech was more sustainable and anti-fragile.


I think they better survived the collapse due to not being as dependent on cutting edge technology to run everything in their society. The technology they did have was older, and possible a bit more robust (or basic). Just as importantly, their society and empire wasn’t built around commerce, but conquest. It wasn’t as intricate and the Khunds could still control a planet through brute force, rather than laser guns.

Originally Posted by Cramer
For some reason, Marte Allon is there as an advisor to Projectra. Does Projectra have plans to bring democracy to Orando?


Paid consultancy work for Marte, a path a lot of ex-politicians go down. smile I don’t think she’d be peddling democracy as the Earth she governed over wasn’t one.

Originally Posted by Cramer
I'm mystified as to why the Legion would bring Mysa into battle, unless she was just there to man the ship while the others were fighting. She's clearly in a breakdown; she can't even stand to listen to the discussion of whether to join the war or not.


While I’m sure the writers thought they were building up to a payoff, there were better ways to do it than this. It doesn’t say much of her teammates to put her into this situation.

Originally Posted by Cramer
It's great to see Kahnya, the former Lady Memory, again but the arranged marriage to Grev for political purposes looks like an unhappy one. Maybe they're just having one of those bad arguments when we get our first glimpse of them... Then ex-Prince Harry Tasmia shows up with Valor and one senses that the battle may not be lost. (I do wonder who Tasmia would have been forced to marry had she remained Shadow Champion, or if she would have chucked the position to stay with Lar.)


I got the feeling that Lady Memory was the one most in control of the relationship too. I think Tasmia would have gone for Lar anyway, and chucked the position. Especially if she knew her cousin was there to pick up the reins.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Could there be a Legion of Khund Rejects who would support the U.P.? .)


There was a Khund Legion, but they all killed each other in the challenge courts finding out who was leader. So, not much in the way of rejects… smile


Originally Posted by Cramer
Minor note: on Venegar (page 14), there's a militia guy with a green headband who really makes me think of Lyle Norg.

At first I thought it was supposed to be Rokk, getting his team back to the shuttles. But the jacket length is wrong. That headband and look is very Lyle. It would have been a interesting to have a ghost on Orando warning the others that their end was coming if they didn’t escape.

But not fitting enough for Sgt Rokk of Easy Legion!

I'm enlisting, Legionnaire aid
Need assisting, to make the grade
He’ll get the expert on the way from Trom
Who could diffuse any Khundian bomb
[Pre-Chorus]
If I could only be tough like him
Then I could win my own small battle of the future

[Chorus]

And Sgt. Rokk is going to help me…



Funny how the character who could transmute the Red Terror just happens to have been sent away… smile

Originally Posted by Ann
Manna from the sky, that's what this issue feels like to me (basically, the polar opposite of Red Terror. LOL) After all the pokey and turgid, if sometimes amusingly goofy, proceedings in most of the previous issues of this volume, we finally get to the ACTION!

To think it was me that liked the previous action scenes most. But when I get more of that here, I like them the least. I think it’s just that they had them stand outside, clumped in a group with little cover against direct fire and an aerial bombardment. Vi and Brin’s injuries seemed like tickboxes to show how gritty ‘n grim it was.

Originally Posted by Ann
The Lady Memory/Grev sequence made me cringe. The creative team's cynical view that she, the supposed fiery idealist, was a shallow and opportunistic brat all along...that grates with me. It's a disservice to one of Levitz's better creations.


I read it that she had a longer game in mind. Getting the Khunds to rid Talok of the UP and then to turn on the Khunds. I don’t know what happened to her after her last defeat. It can’t have been kind to the hill tribes. Perhaps this was her best option to eventually see her ideals in practice.

Originally Posted by Ann
Very nice storytelling on Page 21, cross-cutting both visually and verbally between Cham and the informant and the ambush on Xolnar.

nod


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #981026 01/22/20 02:52 PM
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Nowhere Girl
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Originally Posted by thoth lad
To think it was me that liked the previous action scenes most. But when I get more of that here, I like them the least. I think it’s just that they had them stand outside, clumped in a group with little cover against direct fire and an aerial bombardment. Vi and Brin’s injuries seemed like tickboxes to show how gritty ‘n grim it was.


Oh, I agree that Peterson didn't do much of a job with the action sequences at all. It's just I was so happy that there was such a generous amount of action for the first time in this volume that I overlooked the blandness. smile

Brin's injury, I'll concede may have been cheap, but I thought Vi's did have real gravity. Otherwise, why focus so much on Ayla and others' trying to deal with it?

Originally Posted by thoth lad
I read it that she had a longer game in mind. Getting the Khunds to rid Talok of the UP and then to turn on the Khunds. I don’t know what happened to her after her last defeat. It can’t have been kind to the hill tribes. Perhaps this was her best option to eventually see her ideals in practice.


Nah, I think that's giving the creators too much slack. I stand by my opinion that they had utter contempt for her. Not unlike the theory I've read from more than one fan that the Erin development in the issues ahead was somehow a LGBTQ friendly thing way ahead of its time. It was phobia, plain and simple.

And there I go again, getting way ahead of topics to be discussed later. I'll table any further thoughts on Erin for the moment.


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #981228 01/28/20 03:29 AM
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Time Trapper
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[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Legion of Super-Heroes #16 by Tom & Mary Bierbaum & Keith Giffen, art by Brandon Peterson, Keith Giffen, Al Gordon & Carlos Garzon, Letters John Workman, Colours Tom McCraw, Editor Dan Raspler

As the Khunds continue to advance, Brainy determines that the Red Terror is a 28th century weapon, as well as other lost military tech being deployed. He and Cham believe that Talok VIII is the Khunds' next target, so U.P. Militia leave Xolnar. However, Xolnar falls under attack while a decoy force attacks Talok. Only Academy students and teachers, Kent and Mysa are left and they retreat into the mines, suffering many casualties. Jed Rikane dresses down self-pitying Mysa but she begins to come out of her PTSD/depression haze.

Vi now has an artificial leg; Rokk has an assignment for her.

Laurel and Cham meet with Orlak to spy on Khundia, Laurel disguised as a Khundish prostitute (slave girl?). Orlak and Laurel are intercepted and arrested as traitors; Laurel sees a statue of the Demon Mother and realizes that it's Glorith.

There's backstabbing in the Khundish High Command as noble General Kiritan is sent on the decoy suicide mission to Talok and Commander Galt leads the Xolnar attack.

Somewhere in Africa, Troy aka Tyroc contemplates the remains of Marzal, which was destroyed when it re-materialized and condemned by Earthgov as a city of Khundish agitators. He and some of the Subs have joined a resistance movement led by Jacques Foccart. Universo contacts them about forming an alliance to fight Earthgov. After Universo signs off, he orders his associate Grinn to organize a meeting. A member of the Dark Circle then enters the room, pleased that the Circle's involvement with Universo is paying off.

Comments:The high energy continues with this issue. There's a lot of action panels, but they also have plenty of character and plot depth to keep a bored-with-fighting reader like me happy.

The idea of lost tech made available is fascinating. The 28th century weapons brought to the Khunds by Glorith reference Superboy #210 Soljer's War, which mentioned anti-matter fusion and gamma grenades; Red Terror is a 5YL invention. Brainy knew about these, or figured them out; there must have been inklings or fragments of information about these weapons, but until now, no one in the bright and shiny future felt the need to revive them. Perhaps even Brainy realized that some knowledge is better left forgotten - at least until there was no choice.

Glorith was a surprise, especially as she's slotted herself into the role of Demon Mother incarnate. I would have liked to learn more about Khundish beliefs and what role she plays in their society. (Not sure if this is the first time we've heard of their Demon Mother.)

I also like the Khunds' infighting and the lesson it brings. The top dog fears the effective, popular general; the general's subordinate is eager to advance at any cost, so they kill two birds with one decoy invasion and send Kiritan to either death or failure and disgrace. I certainly wonder if Kiritan would have succeeded if he led the invasion of Xolnar, regardless of Mysa's last minute save.

The deaths of Berta/Nightwind in the previous issue and Jed/Power Boy in this one strike me as unnecessary. They could have been gravely injured instead without changing the story, but I just don't like to see likeable characters die.

The Taines come off very well; tough yet idealistic and they complement one another.

I'm still not clear on Orlak's motivation; what's in it for him to betray his people and work with Cham? This isn't the first time Cham's plans to spy on Khundia have gone awry. In this issue, I thought that Cham had impersonated Orlak to accompany Laurel; the next issue will reveal that he stayed behind and left Laurel with the real Orlak.

Another big surprise - a welcome one - comes at the end with the introduction of Jacques Foccart's resistance group, including a number of Subs. The surprise doubles when Universo appears, apparently on the side of the angels, then another shocker when the Dark Circle enters the scene - so cancel those angels. Jacques is looking good and acting confidently AND he's lost that accent. Hooray!


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #981284 01/29/20 02:10 PM
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v4 Issue 16

Much like the Roxxas plot, the plot moves us through reportage. More battles have been fought against the Khunds. More planets have fallen to the Red Terror. The Legion has sustained more injuries. That includes Daxamite Laurel Gand. It’s quickly revealed what kind of weapons the Khunds have access to, making this a bit more likely (Supergirl was killed by an Anti-Matter being, so it’s fitting that such energies wound Laurel.)

Brainy has discovered that all the technologies, used by the Khunds, are from the 28th century. We don’t know how he discovers this. I’m surprised the military weren’t there before him on such things. There’s a hint of a central figure around whom the Khunds are rallying. Two big plot points, but dropped into a debriefing along with other information about the UP’s prospects and the Khund’s next probable target. It’s nicely done. As are the parallel conclusions reached by Brainy and Cham. Science and subterfuge both conclude that Talok will be the target. Both conclusions are logically reached.

But both are wrong. That’s something of a novelty for the Legion. Despite a moan that this volume sees the Legion retreat on a constant basis, it does take strong writing to have the team get things wrong. So many stories have the protagonists jump through the plot hoops without losing a step.

A quick aside to the Khundian court does double duty. It reinforces last issue’s divisions in Khundian military honour (that will have a pay off) while reminding us of this central figure on Khundia. We now know that this person provided the Khunds with their new technology. That’s the slow reinforcement of ideas we had in the early issues of the run.

On Xolnar, the troops have left to help on Talok. It leaves a skeleton team behind. Presumably they know that Mon El is present. He’s even more invulnerable since the last time he saved Talok. But there’s that anti-matter weaponry, I guess.

Mysa has been stationed on Xolnar too. She feels at a low point, and Jed (in his biggest spotlight since the spiffy v3 14) makes a complete ass of himself in dealing with the situation. His lack of empathy is sadly all too common in the real world too, even if he’s just acting the part of drill sergeant. But why Mysa is posted anywhere is a mystery. Perhaps she has Naltorian powers after all, and can see the big plot point on the horizon.

Icky misogyny continues from the Khundian court to a slave market. Icky then, Icky before then and Icky now. One slave is Laurel Gand. Only her face and skin colour change with the distorter, so the outfit was really what she was wearing. Was the report of her injury really a feint? Perhaps knowing their broadcasts would be tapped, they wanted to have the Khunds believe their hated foe was unable to continue the fight.

That does mean, that with the invulnerable Lar (no nod to the red mist working on him as Lady Memory’s powers did) the UP really are around Talok in force. In that shot, there’s probably a basket shaped space ship with all the space eggs in it.

It’s good to see Ayla taking a field leader role, with Brainy there as Science-Guy. Somehow, he’s also been able to get his mitts on 28th century military tech. How? Why? Is he the Time Trapper? Does Colu keep a secret arms cache?

The Khundian with a shred of honour finds out that he’s being sacrificed in a decoy attack. He’s smart enough to know why, but doesn’t question his orders. On Xolnar, the Khund attack begins in force (did the Khunds synchronise their attacks?). It’s pretty brutal with a lot of UP militia casualties. Mysa tries to raise a shield, but TMK haven’t read the Levitz bible to Mysa’s magic. It’s all Macbeth for Mysa, from here on in.

With casualties mounting, comms down and not even a working infirmary the survivors retreat to the mines, reminding me of a hold out scene in a recent Star Wars movie. Jed apologies to Mysa, who makes a touching reference to Blok (seemingly realising how much he meant to her, but too late). Lamprey is seen too.

Alas, UP intelligence didn’t extend to taking a city tour. They might have noticed the giant Glorith statue. Instead, a captured (we don’t find out why) Laurel and Orlak are taken to it and told to kneel. That’s not going to impress Laurel much. There’s a chance that Orlak is Cham. Since the Roxxas attack its been a struggle to use his powers. So Laurel may have to look out for him.

Before we find out what’s happening there, Giffen gives us an Earth update. Fire Lad’s comments “yeah, I hope something is about to happen” and “its murder standing around waiting” are going to be eerily prophetic for the next couple of years. For this issue, there’s a lot packed in.

We learn that Marzal somehow returned to Earth, only to be destroyed by Earthgov. Earthgov call the city a Khundian invasion force. Former Legionnaire, Tyroc, is one of the survivors. I don’t think too many people would be disappointed to see the end of many things related to Tyroc’s origin. It should be rememebered that he’s a champion of those people. Tyroc is one of the character’s who could lead an effective attack against the Dominators. But he gets to stand around like the others.

GIffen claimed that when people accepted the comedy version of the Subs, he gave them a hardened commando outfit. Actually, they were often a very effective outfit. This simply returns them to the version of the team that took apart the League of Super Assassins. Jacques Foccart is now leading the resistance movement. He’s the partner of Infectious Lass and is about to liaise with Universo (seen way back in #1). It's more of a personal direction for Jacques than we've seen before.

Everyone now knows that the Dominators are behind Earthgov. Everything’s on a knife edge, waiting to go. While we never really see how the Planet found all this out (Roxxas blabbing aside) this is just the same situation as we had at the end of #12. We’re introduced to Univero’s assistant, Grimm (later to be Grinn). We’re not too far from the Magic Wars to fail to notice his resemblance to the demons from it. That’s never really explored.

Neither is another big reveal. Jacques may be uneasy about talking to Universo. But Universo also has uneasy alliances. He’s been meeting with the Dark Circle.

For me, these last panels act as a pivotal scene for a number of plots in the volume. Some of these plots have been seen and will continue past this point. We hear of others in passing with the details seemingly abandoned due to various year one circumstances. Fortunately, there’s enough detail that we don’t need Glorith, a stick and a snowdrift.

The Daily Planet has been a presence in the text pages, and catch up reportage, more than we got to see on panel. They were the ones to make the connections between Roxxas and Earthgov. They would also break the news of Earthgov’s involvement with the Dominators (Roxxas was babbling, but the Planet seem to have pulled it all together and informed everyone on Earth.)

In response to their early investigations, Earthgov hired Celeste (handily with Bounty) to find Roxxas. Her team went off to locate Jan due to his Roxxas connections (as this was tied into Erin being the original victim).

Celeste’s group are now back on Earth. They’re not seen with Jacques here. But we’re told by Brainy (last issue) that Celeste, Jan and Bounty do have a mission there.

One other person was part of that group. He’s been with them throughout, and he goes with them again to Earth (as we’ll see). He’s not mentioned by Brainy last issue, possibly because he’s not quite one of the team yet. While he may not yet have distinctive powers, he does have a very distinctive jumper (as seen in preview team poster in #13). And seen again on this page.

Devlin O’Ryan is the Dark Circle contact for Universo.

Keep this in mind as the plot about the chambers, and source of its cell banks unfolds. The Circle gathered a lot of that genetic material (T&M go to super levels to show this later). The Circle certainly have an interest in Earth, following a number of failed invasions. They will now have an added interest in the genetic material that the Dominators possess.

If only there was a way for the Circle to get their hands on it all. It would require the overthrow of the current administration and their backers. Step forward reporter Devlin O’Ryan, with a story that will lead to the resistance movement, and the overthrow of Earthgov.

The Circle have been pulling the strings behind one of the central plots in this volume.

The Planet’s revelations promote a resistance movement that sends recruits to Jacques and Universo (who would have been on the originally planned page 1 of #1). Increased resistance results in more Earthgov oppression. One person monitoring Earth comms was Cham, back in #1. Seeing it, he decides to reform the Legion. So the Circle was indirectly responsible for the reformation of the team.

Ace reporter Devlin sticks with Celeste’s team. He’s at the heart of both the Earthgov investigation as well as the reformation of a team that Earthgov made sure to shut down due to their threat.

He’s now back on Earth with a Legion team and will shortly be at the heart of Jacques resistance. We’ve just seen he’s at the heart of Universo’s too. All with a view to provide the tools to topple Earthgov and the Dominators. For the Circle.

It’s one of the best untold v4 stories for me. Dropped, like so many plots, along the way. How would Devlin have acted when faced with a choice between the Circle and the Legion? Time to update my Bits thread….


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 27
Fat Cramer #981312 01/30/20 11:34 AM
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Posts: 16,860
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Quote
The Legion has sustained more injuries. That includes Daxamite Laurel Gand. It’s quickly revealed what kind of weapons the Khunds have access to, making this a bit more likely (Supergirl was killed by an Anti-Matter being, so it’s fitting that such energies wound Laurel.)


The anti-matter idea makes sense. Roxxas mentioned something about an anti-Daxamite weapon (or was it the Issue #2 goons?), which I figured was the chronal howitzer he used on Jo.

Quote
Brainy has discovered that all the technologies, used by the Khunds, are from the 28th century. We don’t know how he discovers this. I’m surprised the military weren’t there before him on such things. There’s a hint of a central figure around whom the Khunds are rallying. Two big plot points, but dropped into a debriefing along with other information about the UP’s prospects and the Khund’s next probable target. It’s nicely done. As are the parallel conclusions reached by Brainy and Cham. Science and subterfuge both conclude that Talok will be the target. Both conclusions are logically reached.


He might have put 2 + 2 together from the Soljer experience, or I figure there were remnants of 28th century weapons knowledge around. But the military should have had an inkling as well. The way the information unfolds gradually, albeit incorrectly in the case of the target planet, is very true to life.

Quote
Icky misogyny continues from the Khundian court to a slave market. Icky then, Icky before then and Icky now. One slave is Laurel Gand. Only her face and skin colour change with the distorter, so the outfit was really what she was wearing. Was the report of her injury really a feint? Perhaps knowing their broadcasts would be tapped, they wanted to have the Khunds believe their hated foe was unable to continue the fight.


Well, they're supposed to be icky. They're the bad guys. Very nice idea that the report of her injury might have been misinformation, although she is a little slow on the uptake when encountering Glorith in the flesh.

Quote
We learn that Marzal somehow returned to Earth, only to be destroyed by Earthgov. Earthgov call the city a Khundian invasion force. Former Legionnaire, Tyroc, is one of the survivors.


The Sourcebook states that the Dominion forced Marzal back to Earth in order to set up the whole Khundish invasion false flag. Why they let Tyroc live when they were prepared to exterminate the rest of the city... we'll have to ask them.

Quote
Devlin O’Ryan is the Dark Circle contact for Universo.


Devlin is the Dark Circle guy! I was just thinking it was a popular shirt, since we saw Burrane Jr. wearing a variation of it. Since I didn't remember what exactly happened to Devlin, I'd have to concede this is a possibility, a complex story of motivations, unfortunately, as you say, dropped. Looked it up on Bierbaum's site and found, oddly enough, that readers of the time didn't really care one way or the other:

Keith ended this issue with one of the biggest curveballs that he threw at the readers during the course of the series and one we never picked up on, which was that Universo was working with an agent of the Dark Circle who was very identifiably wearing the symbol we'd come to associate with Devlin O'Ryan (green sweater with a gold star on a blue-black circle outlined in red). I don't remember many questions raised about it but we'd planned to eventually establish that there was some sort of fraternity or society that Devlin was a part of that also included whoever this Dark Circle agent was. Keith was trying to lead people to guess that Devlin might be working for the Dark Circle, but of course people weren't all that invested in Devlin to begin with so there wasn't a great deal of interest whether he was or wasn't an evil agent.

In any event, this will change my reading of the Devlin character going forward.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
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