Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

I forgot to mention that the story includes a significant time jump between 262 and 263 to advance Sue's pregnancy. This was a fairly unheard of move for superhero books at the time as the passage of time typically goes very slowly. So it certainly bears noting.

Now that you mention it, that is a rather odd thing, expediting the subplot about Susan's pregnancy. I recall the outcome (in the next several issues currently awaiting us) as being heartbreakingly powerful, but a bit more buildup would have at least made more dramatic sense. I wonder if editorial pressured Byrne to speed it up?

I don't know. If the outcome was always to be what it was, then it makes sense not to string along readers for too long emotionally before getting to it. If it wasn't always going to be the case, I could see editorial pushing the timeline to get past it as well.

I haven't heard many anecdotes about editorial interference during Byrne's FF run, and I suppose you must not have either. It's quite possible that there was some significant activity of that nature because it IS well-documented that Byrne was no fan of Jim Shooter's. I haven't, though, heard of many specific clashes, aside from Shooter's interference in the Jean Grey outcome.

I do have to wonder about this specific instance, though, especially as Byrne was making a point to move the Richards' out to the suburbs. Though this was as much for Franklin's sake as for the baby's, it seems like Byrne was genuinely looking to expand the Richards family. But I don't know why Shooter or any other editor would object to this since it wouldn't really fundamentally change the title and the dynamic of the characters since they were already married and had one child.

As I read a little bit ahead and see the influence of Shooter's Secret Wars come into play, it made me think about how many of the changes wrought in the aftermath of that story were driven by Shooter and how many were driven by collaboration with all of the series' current writers. I have to think that Byrne must have been pretty much on board for them because of all the wonders he would work with She-Hulk on the FF and beyond and because he continued as writer on the Thing's book thoughout most of that character's Secret Wars spin-off adventure. But you never know...unless there's some interviews and stuff that relates to his time on the FF.

All good points, Lardy.

I'd say Secret Wars, or rather its lamentable sequel SWII (no less deplorable despite its inevitability,) is at the crux of where not only Byrne's FF is headed at the point we've reached, but also the whole Marvel Universe. For better and for worse. But I'll wait til we reach 1985 to elaborate.

What I will say right now is that, according to Sean Howe's excellent book about Marvel, Shooter was, even as early as the first Secret Wars, becoming increasingly heavy-headed in his editorial methods, until by the time he was "let go" three years later, there was a lot more madness than method. I do know for certain that part of the reason Mike Zeck has done little or no interior art since Secret Wars is because Shooter put such heavy demands on him during the making of that story, leaving Zeck burned out and exhausted.

Byrne himself, in an interview circa 1998, had what I consider one of his best insights into why things went sour at Marvel during the final phase of Shooter's tenure. Words to the effect of, "If only Shooter and Dick Giordano had switched places around 1983, that would have been great for both Marvel and DC. Because Marvel had gotten its house in order to a point where they no longer needed a martinet like Shooter but rather a fatherly teddy-bear figure like Giordano, whereas DC under Giordano went off the rails (the messy aftermath of Crisis, et cetera,) in a way that Shooter would never have allowed to happen."

The Thing #10

Earlier in this re-read, I enthusiastically praised "The Thing" #2, beautifully written & inked by John Byrne and penciled with surprising sensitivity by the all-too-easily-dismissed Ron Wilson. Well, now we have another issue written by JB and penciled by RW that is relevant enough to the goings-on in "Fantastic Four" that it has been included in the various collections of the Byrne FF run. I wish I could say it's as good as issue 2, but it's not. I don't blame Byrne or Wilson -- I put the blame squarely on inker Hilary Barta, whom I have seen other finishing jobs by in a few other 80s comics...but none quite as bad as this. Somehow, though, the great expressiveness that Wilson manages to bring to our favorite granite-faced monster-man, Benjamin J. Grimm, does shine through the awful inks here and there. And thank the Gods for that, because this story depends on Ben's adorably ugly face for it to work even halfway!

Basically, Ben has reached a point in his tempestuous life where he feels that, for a variety of perfectly sensible reasons, it's just not going to work out long-term between him and Alicia Masters. As he tries to tell her this during a walk in Central Park, the couple is harassed by obnoxious grade-school kids...which only deepens Ben's convictions that he's doing what's right for both him and Alicia. Relocating in a huff to the Baxter Building, the Thing bares his heart to his longtime lover, and for emphasis, he flashes back to the never-before-chronicled immediate aftermath of the familiar FF origin scene. Byrne and Wilson really drive home just how painful Ben's very existence following his transformation has been!

It could be argued, with some validity that Alicia is far too passive throughout, but before she even gets a chance to put in her 2 cents, Ben gets called by Reed to speed over back to Central Park with him and Johnny. It seems there's some kind of energy manifestation that is literally out of this world! Of course, us longtime Marvel face-fronters know where this is going -- to Battleworld and the Secret Wars maxi-series, while Susan, who is experiencing several complications with her 2nd pregnancy, is left behind with Alicia and little Franklin. One gigantic cosmic zap later, and the menfolk are gone. Temporarily? Forever? We shall find out in FF #265.

I read the next 6 issues in the Omnibus (including Thing 10 and the next FF Annual) last month after completing the Mole Man 2-parter. I thought about posting two 3-issue reviews, but I didn't want to rush Fick. So seeing as how she came back with the above review, I'll just write a few words about....

Thing 10 was a thoughtful interlude in which Ben contemplates moving on from his relationship with Alicia. It does work as a nice companion piece to the similarly introspective and retrospective Thing 2, though I also like the former tale better. I, too, had issues with the art. I'll trust Fick's assessment of the blame to Hilary Barta as I'm not overly familiar with Ron Wilson's work. I do have to wonder a bit, though, because some characters look terribly off, as with Reed and Sue having weirdly high foreheads. And Alicia looks really off throughout the whole story. In fact, in the last panel of page two she inexplicably has a blank, mouth-open expression that makes her look strangely like a blow-up sex doll! I'm not even kidding! But at least Ben himself looks great in the issue.

The timing is interesting as we know in hindsight (and Byrne, of course, knew then) that Ben is about to go on a solo journey spinning out of Secret Wars that will take him out of the FF line-up for about three years. Ben himself didn't know about what was about to happen to him, but the timing is such that his seeking closure with Alicia would turn out to be fortuitous. It doesn't come out of nowhere, though. Byrne has been seeding Ben's turning point with her for a while, dating back to their adventure in Liddleville very early on in Byrne's run. So it works that he is broaching the subject here because it has been set up, but the finality is interrupted by Reed and Johnny pulling Ben off into what will be a pretty fateful adventure and a prolonged one for Ben. So enough is said for both lovers to know a change is coming, but the resolution is left hanging. In the meantime we will see one of the pair move on to another relationship and the other having their feelings hurt when it is discovered. Basically, one takes this as the end and moves on, and the other feels the need to reconnect after the time apart. It's an interesting and brave move by Byrne in breaking up a longterm FF relationship, one that will be undone by future creative teams with an absurd ret-con.

So in my opinion this series of six issues that begin with thing 10 and end with FF Annual 18 (with the notable exception of "A Small Loss" in FF 267) is largely lightweight and inessential in the Byrne run, but certainly not bereft of entertainment value. I feel that the run really resumes in earnest with FF 269!

Lardy, thank you for being so patient and accommodating. I'm currently working my way through those same few issues, plus the Annual, that you mentioned at the end of your review, and so far I concur. Once I finish the Annual, I'll post one big block review of them, so we can get to 269 faster!

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the flashback sequence in Thing 10 -- I thought that was actually the best scene.

RE: Ron Wilson, he was one of the first African-American artists to draw famous superheroes, alongside Billy Graham (who drew the majority of the great -- and recently collected for the first time -- Bronze Age Black Panther solo epic "Panther's Rage") and Keith Pollard (EVERY SINGLE model sheet from the 1991 edition of OHOTMU, as well as the co-creator of Felicia Hardy while he was the semi-regular Amazing Spider-Man artist during the Marv Wolfman era; he also drew THREE Bronze Age Marvel anniversary issues -- Fantastic Four 200, Amazing Spider-Man 200, and Thor 300!)

Wilson drew ALL 33 ISSUES of Ben's 80s solo book, and drew Ben's original team-up book Marvel Two-In-One for two long stints which combine into an approximate total of 55 out of the 100 issues of the book's complete run! In the latter, he notably drew most of the issues immediately following the classic Project Pegasus Saga arc until the book's cancellation. So obviously he's quite a fan of Aunt Petunia's favorite nephew!

He also drew all 13 issues the Star Comics' version of "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe." 80s works in which he had far more creative input are the Wolfpack limited series and the Super Boxers graphic novel.

Overall, I think of Wilson as a reliable, meat-and-potatoes superhero artist. What distinguishes him, though, is how expressive he made Ben. And let's face it, Ben is not an easy character to even draw competently, let alone distinctively!

Sounds good!



It didn't do a whole lot for me. I think this is mostly because I'm not an old school FF fan. Specifically, I still haven't read much of the classic Lee/Kirby run because I've found what I've sampled...unsatisfying. I've said it before, but I find the treatment of Sue deplorable in what I've read. Not just her portrayal, but the way the male characters treat her, especially Reed. I may very well buy and read the complete early FF at some point, but it's just not a priority. So showing us a new scene of what happened after their origin scene didn't appeal to my nostalgia because it just doesn't exist for that era. Yes, it shows Ben's isolation was there from the beginning, but it's not exactly a revelation.

I hope you can understand my reaction there. I don't mean for it to put a shadow on your own.



I'm certainly aware of Ron Wilson and have seen his work here and there over my long fandom, but he hasn't figured heavily in stuff I've read over same. I read very little Marvel 2-in-1 and a handful of Thing issues back in the day. Looking at his wikipedia entry, it looks like it was mostly fill-in work beyond those two books. I also see the Marvel Graphic Novel Super Boxers was something he did. As a kid, I was fascinated by MGN's and might even have bought that one if I could have afforded it. I Googled some images from that tonight, and it looks pretty impressive visually.

In any case I've got the Serpent Crown HC from 2-in-1. Looks like he did some of the art in that. Unfortunately, the Project pegasus HC I own (as you mentioned) features no Wilson credits and neither does the Liberty Legion one I want to get soon. At least there's another Thing issue featured very soon in the Omnibus.

But, yeah, he draws a great, expressive Benjamin J. Grimm!

Regarding the flashback, Lardy, I'm certainly not offended by your reaction. If anything, I dislike the early FF as much as, or even more than, you. I just thought it was cool the way that Byrne fleshed out what was, in the original Kirby/Lee telling, a flat, sketchy scene that ended all too quickly (trust me, you've missed nothing by not reading it.) I was also impressed with the way that Byrne showed us, in an understated and non-preachy way, how casual intolerance is taken for granted by its perpetrators, and how deeply it emotionally lacerates its targets.

Ah, yes. Nothing wrong with putting a little message in there. I like that it's not preachy but effective.

Lardy, I think I need to get away from superhero comics for at least a couple of months.

Sorry about this. It's really a whole bunch of things coming together at once in my life.

But I hope you'll still at least post the short reviews of whatever issues of Byrne's FF you re-read in the next several weeks.

I'll do my best to catch up when I come back.

Well, I'll admit I'm disappointed, but it is what it is. I think what I'll do is finish this trade stack I've just picked out of the Pile and started. It'll probably take a month or so. After that, I'll probably pick up where i left off in the FF Omnibus and read all the way thru. I doubt that I'll post issue-to-issue reviews as I read unless I hear that you've picked it back up. I'm both eager to read the remaining material and ready to clear the plate for the Byrne Wonder Woman, She-Hulk and Alpha Flight collections that wait patiently in the Pile but feel wrong to advance to when another Byrne gem is unfinished.

If we never continue together with this, it was definitely fun while it lasted! :hug;

Lardy, good news. I've borrowed F4 Visionaries Volumes 5, 6, 7, 8 from the library and plan to burn through 'em during these next few weeks.

That review I promised a while ago of that bunch of "meh" issues -- 265-268 and Annual 18 -- will be posted in the next 24 hours, and I'll even throw in 269, the first installment of the Warlord arc, to give the re-read some extra momentum.

As always, thanks for your patience.

Well, that is very fortuitous! I just finished the big trade stack yesterday and had the FF next on my agenda!

Yay!

It's cosmic synchronicity!

FANTASTIC FOUR #265-269, ANNUAL 18

Here we have one of the most gut-wrenching, heart-breaking moments in the long and eventful life of Susan Storm-Richards, the miscarriage of her second child, despite the best efforts from Reed Richards and other brilliant Marvel Universe scientists. And yet, upon returning to it in this re-read, it feels somehow...muted. But I don't think Byrne is to blame for that -- rather tellingly, there is a tangible mixture of intrusions (Secret Wars) and outright padding (the whole Trapster sequence, which feels like one of those end-of-the-night SNL sketches that almost always falls flat) which a now-seasoned creator like Byrne could never have possibly done deliberately.

I believe we are witnessing the beginning of Marvel's slow but steady descent into what I consider one of its darkest ages -- 1985 to 1987, or the tempestuous 3rd Act of the Jim Shooter Era, where, according to many disgruntled creators and editors, he allegedly went from Visionary to Tunnel-Visioned, from Firm But Fair Authoritarian to Tyrant Of Shakespearean Proportions. Now, granted, Marvel was also in the process of changing owners from a dime-a-dozen corporation to a clueless C-List movie studio (rumor has it one of the studio heads assumed that Marvel published Superman!) So I would imagine that Shooter found himself under 100 times more stress than earlier in his EiC tenure. Did he always deal with it well? Probably not, but in any show business environment, there are dozens of sides (if not more) to every story.

At this point, though, it's not all bad. New team-muscle She-Hulk hits the ground running thanks to Byrne (who has said he fell in love with Jen while collaborating with Roger Stern on the F4/Avengers crossover we reviewed a while back.) Jen has a special personal meaning to me, as I imagine she has to a lot of other women who suddenly found themselves to have grown half-a-foot taller during Junior High School, as if all the other trials and tribulations of adolescence weren't bad enough. As portrayed by Byrne & Stern, Jen blossomed into a good-humored extrovert who had come to embrace and love her bigness and her unusualness. Way ahead of her time, our Jen was.

In addition, 269 introduces a powerful new alien villain, Terminus, and begins an action-and-spectacle-packed 2-parter that is, if not as memorable as the Negative Zone Saga/Avengers Crossover, then at least as good as the Ego the Living Planet story from early in Byrne's run. It's also notable for Byrne bringing back the F4's gentle giant Native American ally, Wyatt Wingfoot, and having She-Hulk fall for him at first sight.

Finally, the less said about Annual 18 (which Byrne scripted over Mark Gruenwald's plot) the better. Mark Bright's pencil art is reliably solid, although the inking by Mike Gustovich isn't the best fit. But I have come to feel very little patience for comic book issues that exist only for the sake of absurdly nit-picking continuity fixes. Annual 18 is one of them.

FF 265 is kind of a filler issue with 2 shorter stories, one with the Trapster vs. the Baxter Building and the other catching up with Sue and some Avengers characters that were left out of Secret Wars as they await news of the missing.

The Trapster story is cute and shows the Building is definitely no defenseless without its famous occupants. I like how Byrne draws ol' Paste Pot Pete in his updated costume. For a lower tier villain, he lasts longer than expected against the defenses.

By the end of the second story, the FF returns with She-Hulk in tow, replacing our Ben, who has decided to stay behind. It ends with Sue suffering a mysterious physical ailment again. Not a lot happening otherwise, but I espcially enjoyed seeing Byrne draw Mockingbird. She just looks perfect here.

...........

FF 266 is a fill-in issue itself with Sue's medical issues serving as bookends to a flashback to a previously-unseen adventure.This flashback features pencils by Kerry Gammil with Byrne on inks. The villain, Karisma, is ultimately pretty silly as her power over men is caused by her use of special make-up, but the fight between Sue and a mind-controlled Ben is actually pretty intense! Ben is relentless and unrestrained, and it's interesting seeing Sue pushed to her limits against him. Gammil's pencils were a treat for me, as I would really enjoy his later work on Superman, after Byrne leaves.

One touch I like from Byrne in the present-day bookends is how he introduces Reed's colleagues as themselves without referencing their more famous alter-egos. It's not important that they are also Hulk, Sasquatch and Morbius the Living Vampire (who at the time was cured, and the captions don't mention this. I think the next issue finally references the Hulk, but the other two are kept relatively anonymous.

...........

This leads to 267, which features Reed seeking the aid of a final expert, Dr. Otto Octavius, in a last-ditch effort to help Sue and their baby. It's actually one of the more nuanced depictions of Doc Ock I can recall, actually. Ock agrees to help but snaps when he sees a billboard of Spider-Man, leading to Reed and Ock having quite a tussle. In the end Reed reasons with him and gets him to help again. But they arrive to late, and in an effective last panel, it's revealed that Sue lost the baby.

I was a little disappointed here because my faulty memory had recalled that Ock got there in time but wasn't able to save the child. But it was a pretty effective story as it was. The Octavius characterization and especially the sad outcome were unusual and pretty brave for comics at the time.

...........

Issue 268 features the immediate aftermath of the Richards' loss and deals with both Ock and having Banner's other self have a quick cameo. Reed's handling of both was a very strong moment for him. Then, She'Hulk gets the nickel tour of the Baxter Building from Johnny, only to have it interrupted by the titular "Masque of Doom". When Doom apparently died a few issues prior, all that was left was his mask. We learn here that the FF took it with them and housed it in their trophy room. Then, the mask actually attacks Jenn and Johnny (and later Reed) and puts up quite the fight before reed stops it. The whole purpose seems to be to tease the possibility of either Doom returning or of someone taking up his mantle.

The puzzling thing to me here was that the characters don't mention Doom's participation in the same Secret Wars they'd just returned from. They act as if nothing had happened with Doom since his "death". I assume this is to sort of avoid spoilers and keep SW's twists a surprise, but anyone could have easily seen that Doom was in it. Plus, I don't think the explanation for Doom's participation despite his "death" was ever given until well after the event was over any way--and not in the event itself. I guess this was just Byrne's way of making his storylines work out the way he'd intended and not letting Shooter's story torpedo how he wanted to handle it.

...........

Finally, FF Annual 18 features the wedding of Black Bolt and Medusa and only a plot credit for Byrne. It's pretty forgettable overall, so I won't really waste space on it.

...........

I'll address the Terminus 2-parter next!

Thanks, Lardy, for mentioning Kerry Gammill's guest penciling of most of the pages in this issue. Like you, I have greatly enjoyed some of his other work; much as I like his Superman work, though, it's his Power Man & Iron Fist work from the beginning of the 80s (which I read as back issues in the 90s) that really cemented my admiration and affection for Gammill's style (I actually have a short but sweet interview with him, published circa 1982, which I might quote from in the near future in the Who Are Your Favorite Artists thread.)

FF 269 & 270 feature the introduction of what appeared to be a major new villain. I suppose you could argue that he turned out to be somewhat just that for a few years, but history probably says otherwise. In fact, you can argue that Byrne himself was somewhat on the fence about Terminus.

I think it starts with the fact that only two of the FF, Reed and Jennifer (with guest supporting player Wyatt Wingfoot), are present for the conflict. While this is set up in-story by the fact that it starts off as an investigation into a strange phenomenon and with the fact that Sue is sidelined recovering from her miscarriage, any FF story that features a partial FF line-up can be construed more as a side adventure, just as Johnny and Ben's adventure several issues ago can be.

Another big sign is that though part 1 ends on a pretty massive cliffhanger, part 2 begins with 9 pages of subplots before picking the main story back up. Now, I'm not implying these were not important subplots because they were: Byrne spends time showing what looks to be love blooming between Johnny and Alicia and shows Sue dealing with both her grief over her lost child and her fears about her role in the FF. To me, it's clear that Byrne has more interest in these points and is keeping us entertained with the Terminus side-show.

None of this is really bad. Terminus is kind of like a different take on Galactus as presented here. Less out for cosmic purposes than out for personal gain . And Byrne gives us some pretty great visuals to show the power at Terminus' disposal. In the end, though, Terminus is taken out pretty quickly with a little mulligan Reed was working on pre-threat last issue that you just knew was setting something up. Byrne himself didn't return to Terminus before his run was over, so I don't know if what was done with the character (including a certain twist) was something he intended.

Overall, an entertaining arc, but maybe one that was more of a side story than it may first appear. Two big takeaways: 1) Byrne's work with Sue and setting her up for a significant status quo change shortly. The scenes here with her anger, grief and frustration show a very clear transition from Old Sue to New Sue. We've seen a new Sue under Byrne already that is in stark contrast to the meek, subservient Sue of the Lee/Kirby era, but here we see her (and Byrne) acknowledge what she was in the past and that she's not going to be that girl anymore. 2) The return of Wyatt Wingfoot. I haven't really read any of Wyatt's old adventures with the FF, but he is a welcome addition to the cast and a cool love interest for Jenn.

Update: I have, as intended, burned through all four of the remaining F4 Visionaries Byrne volumes. That's the good news. The not-so-good-news is that they're all due in a couple days, and I've already passed the renewal limit. So I'll get down as many thoughts as I can in the form of an outline, and take it from there. As always, Lardy, thanks for your patience. We're in the home stretch now! And still 3 weeks until the Pichelli/Slott F4 relaunch!

Lardy,

After giving this a lot of thought, I think it would be best if you reviewed the remaining FF stories at your own pace, and in as much as or as little detail as you prefer depending on each story. I'll chime in accordingly, using a combination of memory and the notes I took.

Is that okay with you?

So I found myself losing some steam with this re-read and have paused it for the time being. I probably would have kept up if Fick were posting, but I found myself laboring a bit because Byrne stops inking himself with issue 274. I've found that Byrne is definitely my favorite inker of Byrne, and I've found the inks by the likes of Al Gordon, Jerry Ordway and Joe Sinnott unsatisfying. It's still recognizable Byrne art, but I found it distracting after the top-tier quality of the art I'd gotten used to throughout his tenure. I'll probably resume and finish before too long, but for the time being, I've been on hold in the middle of the Malice/Psycho Man/Microverse saga for a couple of months now.

Yeah, I have to admit that I, too, found the Malice/Psycho Man/Microverse issues a bit too much to chew on. To paraphrase Lardy's observation, for the art to suddenly get so antiseptic-looking, so hard to distinguish from the rest of the Shooter-Era "Marvel House Style," is jarring and off-putting. Add to that the intensity of the horror elements, the harshness of the violence, and the questionable portrayal of Susan and Reed with what might be interpreted as Byrne's dubious sexual politics, and I can see now why I just couldn't wrap my head around it enough to produce a coherent review.

I do want to briefly touch on the character of Terminus -- I think that, as anti-climactic as the battle between him and the F4 may have seemed at first glance, it did do a beautiful job of setting up his surprise reappearance in Avengers 257 (by Stern, John Buscema, and Palmer) and his shocking rampage through the Savage Land (257 is, without exaggeration, one of my personal favorite Avengers issues of all time.) Given that Byrne and Stern are good friends, I have a strong feeling that it was all pre-planned.

Lardy, I'm just about done piecing together an essay with my thoughts on the final leg of Byrne's FF. It's going to focus mainly on the last several issues: The Secret Wars II tie-ins, the Blastaar/Annihilus 2-parter, the time travel story, and the unfinished story that Byrne's friend Roger Stern completed with Jerry Ordway.

Stay tuned.

And as always, thanks for being patient. I was looking over some of our earlier Byrne FF discussions, and I was amazed to see how long ago we began this re-read. But now we'll finally finish what we started!

I haven't forgotten about this, Lardy. As ever, I apologize.

But I am bound and determined to post my final thoughts on the Byrne FF era before New Year's Day!

John Byrne's Fantastic Four: Final Thoughts

As is often the case, I should have realized a long time ago that if I was so resistant to getting into the nuts and bolts of the actual stories in the latter portion of Byrne's long F4 run, then there was no point in forcing myself.

So, in brief: The Secret Wars II tie-ins are just a convoluted way of setting in stone the new status quo for Doctor Doom (it ain't pretty,) while the Blastaar/Annihilus 2-parter feels like Byrne wanted it to be a back-to-basics epic F4 cosmic romp, only for it to be truncated into something so basic as to be utterly forgettable. The time travel story and the "cult of the F4" story which Byrne left unfinished both have interesting ideas behind them but end up copping out with formulaic resolutions.

And that's it for Byrne's 5-year F4 run!

Out not with a bang, but with a whimper, indeed! As Ben Grimm would grumble, "SHEESH!"

I do remember reading a Byrne interview years ago where he said that, even without his open warfare against Jim Shooter, the final stretch (PUN, sorry) of his F4 run would have still found him tired and rudderless. Apparently, there were talks of having Byrne continue to write F4, but with someone else drawing it (one contender was said to be John Romita Jr, whose style on Uncanny X-Men was just starting to get weird and craggy around that time; I'll be charitable and say that, even as a detractor of JR's strange artistic evolution (Daredevil excepted,) I find the idea intriguing.)

Point being, the F4 had become like a once-great TV show that was starting to creak and crack at its foundations, with Byrne as the longtime showrunner who was feeling the pressure to deliver, while at the same time pining for greener pastures (i.e. Superman.)

That said, I'm very glad to have done this particular Re-Read, not just because there were a lot of wonderful discussions with Lardy, but because it helped me realize that my entire concept of the F4 is based around Byrne's interpretation of them, not Stan & Jack's, nor even Walter Simonson's. Yes, much as I still adore Good Ol' Walt's grandiosely spectacular take on F4, it's Byrne who got me to care for Susan, Reed, and Johnny as *people.* And given how badly dated the Silver Age F4 seems to me, how a variety of talented creators have taken on the daunting F4 legacy only to come up short (Waid & Ringo, to give but one example,) and how utterly loathsome I find Jonathan Hickman's White-Bread-American-Nuclear-Family-Uber-Alles F4...well, that says a lot in favor of Byrne!

Were it not for Byrne, the F4 would remain little more than a disturbing curio from the Post-Elvis/Pre-Beatles years, IMO a particularly awful flashpoint in world history (the Cold War raging as the American Dream curdles and the remaining believers in The Dream dig their heels in to resist any sort of questioning.) I may not have always agreed with where Byrne took the characters, but because he obviously had great affection for them, it helped me to meet them halfway and, as hokey and cliché as it might sound, build a bridge between a point of view very different from my own. No small achievement there.

And finally, my ranking of the most notable Byrne F4/Thing stories:

1. Negative Zone Saga/Avengers crossover

2. Liddleville

3. Man and Super-Man

4. Ben's Old Flame

5. Ego

6. Evil Crypto-Disney Theme Park

7. Trial of Reed Richards

8. Galactus/Nova/Terrax

9. Dr. Doom

10. Terminus