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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,421
Nowhere Girl
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Nowhere Girl
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,421 |
Thoth, why did you quote this post of mine, but then leave no reply to it? While I am pleasantly surprised and thrilled that you have so many kind words for LaRocque's work on this issue, I have to wonder -- who are the artists whose faces you compare unfavorably to his? Off the top of my head, I thought of Perez, whom I know is a favorite of yours, but I'm curious as to who else. Did I somehow offend or annoy you? If so, then I apologize and assure you that was not my intention.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
Crumbs No! I left the quote in so I would be sure to come back and answer it... and um... forgot because I was in a rush. As soon as I saw you were the last poster to the thread I remembered. I'll pop back later with actual words...
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,421
Nowhere Girl
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Nowhere Girl
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,421 |
Ah, okay. Glad that's all it was.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861
Time Trapper
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OP
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861 |
Nura’s powers have been shown to be misinterpretations, in the past. It’s something that Ayla and Dirk bring up. Nura’s partner, Thom, wonders if it’s a mistake. Precognition is a tricky enough power, without it being undermined by your colleagues and lover at the first available opportunity. It’s setting up the reader for the later reveal that Brande will “kill off” his old identity. But no other character goes through as much second guessing as Nura.
LaRocque does a good job in showing Nura’s seriousness at her prediction, giving it the weight it deserves. Nura must have a very good idea of how accurate her power is yet she's often put on the defensive as others question it. She's never responded in an angry manner or shown to be depressed at her teammates lack of confidence in her precognition (except in the reboot). She could just as easily respond with "I see your future and it's not pretty" snark, but doesn't. I'm not sure certain other Legionnaires would be so mature if their powers were continually questioned. Rather than just use comms to contact leader Element Lad, Levitz takes Nura on a tour of a corridor and then to the mission monitor room where she recruits Timberwolf to her mission. Presumably Blok stays behind to be on monitor duty. I get the feeling this scene was supposed to give us more than an establishing shot of the HQ. It would have been a chance to show more of the building. I was so caught up in the chase that I missed the obvious, that she should have used the comms. Brande has been unhappy over the retirement of the three founders, and it’s going to play a part in his decision to move on at the end of this story. In a nice touch, he’s impressed by Quislet who definitely puts some fun into the book. It’s something Brande appreciates, even as Nura tells him that Quislet has also proved himself as a Legionnaire (thankfully this takes place after last issue and not the one before, although Quislet also stopped Ontiir). Brande's reaction to Quislet is one of the reasons I thought he had a more sudden change of direction - not that he wasn't thinking about leaving or changing his life before, but Quislet's attitude crystalized in Brande's mind the decision to start over and have fun. Sun Boy is touchy at the thought of Charon placing a hand on him. It’s odd to see him even think of it as a threat from one of Brande’s staff. Levitz has a thing about touching shoulders as shown between Tinya and Dirk as late as v7. Interesting, the shoulder thing. I figured Dirk was just reacting to the idea that he would be physcially forced out rather than leave politely when requested. Earlier, Charon had said he could murder Brande if it wasn’t for the existence of the Legion. Yet, he’s managed to infiltrate Brande’s estate and had plenty of opportunity to fulfil his mission before the Legion arrived. Perhaps Nura’s prediction has blocked something he was on the verge of doing, showing just how useful even a mistaken prophecy is. It’s a nice thought, but that wouldn’t; expain why Charon was wearing a power syphon in the first place. It’s like he had a view of the script and anticipated Nura’s arrival with others he could steal powers from. It’s a bit of a clunking moment of me. It is a bit clunking, but we don't know how long he's been there. Perhaps he just arrived and dispatched Sanders a few minutes before or after the Legion returned. We know he's been spying on Brande, but has that been from within Brande's operation or as an outsider? Just extremely lucky, however, that Sanders is enough of a match that Charon could replace him unnoticed. The diversity of the supporting cast continues, with Psych-Techno Officer Usutu. I don’t know if she’s seen again either, but it all helps. I don't recall seeing her again but agree it's the sort of detail that enriches the Legionverse. The Legion return Charon to his employer. McCauley wonders for a moment if they are also there to exact revenge. It’s what he would have presumably have done, which supports Charon’s fear of Brande earlier. Levitz shows McCauley as an aristocrat, lost to a world of intrigues and plots. Very good point about reasons for Charon to fear Brande, not just the no-kill policy, but actual experience with the super-wealthy. And possibly an untold tale about R.J. Brande, arms dealer to the stars. However, the story—like the break itself—takes too long to go anywhere and doesn’t amount to much. Interesting that you must have had a similar opinion when you first read it, given the low ranking of this issue among your list! However, the story that gets Brande to that point relies on contrivance, padding, and by-the-books action. McCauley and Charon pose no real threat. In fact, it makes the Legionnaires look weak when Brande himself forces Charon to divulge the identity of his employer. Its not that Brande shouldn’t be able to handle himself; it’s that the Legionnaires don’t really do anything except run interference. While Brande reminds Charon that he’s not restricted by the Legion’s code against killing, the Legionnaires simply turn away and pretend to be interested in Nura’s nails. It’s a type of humor that, like much of the annual, doesn’t suit the Legion. I didn't mind the humour, although it did seem out of place given the tone of the story overall. That the Legionnaires stood aside struck me as their deference to him - if he wants to beat up on the rat in his nest, let him have at it. If things got out of hand, they could easily have intervened. There's also the idea that when Brande commands, the Legion jumps - which McCauley was complaining about and which we've seen in previous issues. The Legion also appears ineffectual when they can’t touch McCauley. Why should it matter if Brande refuses to press charges? It must be against some kind of law to endanger the lives of Legionnaires and whatever human staff of Brande’s happened to be on his estate. The idea of McCauley being too rich to be touched (or, in modern parlance, too big to fail) has analogs in the real world, and he could indeed become a serious threat to the Legion. But here he’s just a grown-up pretty boy whose motivation consists of jealousy toward his business rival; with Brande gone, that motivation presumably vanishes. There is a sense that McCauley is beyond the reach of the Legion due to his riches, but it could be that they have instructions from Brande to let it be and, again, stand aside at Brande's request. That's partly why I'd like to have seen McCauley go after the other characters who are richer than he is - as a villain that the Legion would pursue and eventually bring to justice.
Holy Cats of Egypt!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
And possibly an untold tale about R.J. Brande, arms dealer to the stars. I was thinking about arms dealer Brande throughout. I never fell for that "single form" thing for a minute.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
Li’l thoth in Elsenwhen
More classic Legion in DC Digest #68 – You get Starfinger; The True Identity of Starfinger; The Insect Queen of Smallville; The Wedding that Wrecked the Legion; The Menace of the Sinister Super-Babies; The sacrifice of Kid Psycho (appropriate in recent rereads and not a coincidence) and Hunters of the Super-Beasts.
Legion artist Keith Giffen draws a Superman/ Creeper Crisis Crossover in DC Comics Presents #88. The Creeper is a Giffen favourite, hence the appearance in early JL issues and the idea that he’d be a recurring character there.
Before there was Giffen’s infamous nine panel grid in the Legion, there was Giffen’s sixteen panel grid in the adaptation of Robert Bloch’s Hell on Earth. So, it looks as though he was trying this stuff out before the Watchmen made it onto the stands.
Giffen’s also the artist on World’s Finest 322. The styles on each of these books is different too. It’s only a matter of time before its revealed that Reep Daggle took over the Giffen identity around this time. Legion scribe Mindy Newell has Shadow Demons attacking Paradise Island in Wonder Woman #328. I’m missing issue of this story, but I’m keen to read it. It’s not long after her Dawnstar story and it’s towards the end of one of DC’s flagship characters.
More Crisis crossovers in Firestorm #42 where Donna and Firehawk, showing off a new costume, go into the warp zone. I think they were looking for Terry Long, so probably he’s been chatting up young women from across history.
Infinity Inc Annual #1 reveals the mother of Jade & Obsidian while Infinity Inc #21 has the new Hourman and Doctor Midnite on the cover; JLA 245 punts Steel into the future where he faces The Lord of Time. He might not be in the Crisis, but he’s Hal Jordan is in the crossovers, such as Green Lantern #195.
Like Wonder Woman, Roy Thomas has shadow demons in All Star Squadron 52. They, and some of the All Star Squadron are on Earth-S. How well does this fit into Crisis 5 & 6? Superman visits Kandor and also the parents of Kara post Crisis #7 in Superman 414. Over in Action #574 he’s in the Olympics of Two Worlds. There’s a fair bit of this Kara foreshadowing/ remembrance going on in the super-books, and I don’t think any of them stand up particularly well.
Kory is told about her upcoming marriage in Teen Titans #15. Kory makes a guest panel appearance in Omega Men #33 to talk to her brother. Omega Men is another I should fill in the gaps for. There’s a lot going on in a large cast this issue.
Batman 390 and Detective 557 continues the Nightslayer/ Nocturna story. I’d only get one of these this month. I’d be regularly knocked out of this story. I can appreciate the editorial decisions on crossovers in a newsstand world. You’re not always going to know it’s a crossover (Superman triangles looked to sort this) and you simply might not be able to get the issue.
Bats is still with the Outsiders as “The Truth About Looker” begins in BatO #28.
A cautionary tale brings out what’s inside you in Swamp Thing #43 while Warlord reaches #100.
Li’l thoth would have got JLA, Action Comics, DC Comics Presents (and not liked the Giffen art much); Batman; Who’s Who & Crisis (from the big city shop); Tales of the legion (the end of the LSV story this month); Tales of the Teen Titans (Trigon story starts).
A month with Crisis (by Wolfman & Perez), LSV vs the Legion (by Levitz and Lightle, taking over from Giffen), Trigon in the Titans (by Wolfman &Perez) the always brilliant Who’s Who and a Steel spotlight in JLA! It doesn’t get a lot better than this really.
Later on, I’d hunt down the Swamp Thing issues and later still the Alan Davis BatO issues. I’ve a feeling there’s some good things in Omega Men too, with a slightly different pace.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283 |
Wow. Never saw that thread. Very cool. Thanks.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283 |
6. Avengers # 262 -- Marvel OMIGAWDS! That's the one where Captain America convinces the Sub-Mariner to join the Avengers! I *love* that issue, it always brings a tear to my eye, and I'm so happy to see it made your Top 10 that month! I remember that. This period of the Avengers is one of my favourites. Great stories with interesting writing and characterisation by Roger Stern, and I also enjoyed the artwork of John Buscema.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,283 |
LSH v3 #17
I remember this cover very well. It certainly stands out as different to the usual LSH fare or for that matter any superhero comic cover. BUT Until I opened and reread the story I had no idea what it was going to be. No recollection at all. Sure once I started reading I remembered it but it obviously didn't stand out in my memory. this reading was also the first time that I made some sense of the "New Beginning". Being a new beginning for Brande fits perfectly. Being a new beginning for the Legion is subtle and a bit weak and only makes sense if you were a regular reader, understanding how the Legion was somewhat new with the founders gone, brand new members and now its financial backer leaving as well.
The story itself is OK but nothing special. I do like the charcterisation of McCauley and don't mind the nail polish joke. I was never really happy with Nura's dream being so out of whack. It works about as well as that famous quote from a certain space opera movie trilogy about a certain characters father being killed by himself when he became a bad guy "So what I told you was true ... from a certain point of view."
If this was meant to be a jumping on point for new readers, I don't think it would have worked very well. It's hard to tell from the inside but the story is average, there is some action to watch, some ongoing plots to feel like you are in the middle and missing bits, the main story about a character that new readers just met now leaving, and a very brief rather forced retelling of the Legion's founding. If I was a new reader I would be rather surprised when the man who appeared from this issue to be a major villain of the Legion (Mc Cauley, even if only incidentally) never appeared again in this series.
As a regular reader it's an ok but unnecessary story with very little sub-plot advancement and I don't think missing it would make any difference. It's been 8 issues since we last saw Brande (for all of 3 panels) and while this says goodbye it leaves hanging the Protean mystery which was why he appeared at all previously.
Artwork is nice, certainly better than some LSH artists, although I find some of the faces a bit off too. The problem for me is sometimes LaRocque makes the top of the head too low (or the bottom too long). A balanced head had the eyes in the middle between the chin and the crown, even though much of the top is covered in hair. Look at the final image of McCauley in the bottom left of page 22. Still this mostly a minor quibble and I enjoy most of it.
Interestingly it seems that Larry Mahlstedt has his own issues with some of the artwork. The panel on the D&D machine on page 5 reads "(unreadable) ... I HATE INTERLAC - LARRY". The first bit has 5 characters and the middle 3 look like EIT. It could be meant to be LEVITZ with part of the reason Larry dislikes Interlac coming out as misspelling. The panel Lightning Lass is viewing says "A NEW BEG...." presumably "a new beginning", and there is no further Interlac anywhere in the book (apart from the big L on the HQ which is easily understandable and recognisable anyway). I will be interested to see if there is any in the forthcoming issues.
The one thing I get confused about is exactly which Leland McCauley this is, III or IV.
The original, III, was introduced way back in Adventure days #374 (where he is stated to be the 2nd richest man, right after Brande) and #377 with a bigger role in the Modo/Modulus pirates story. In both cases he is portrayed as a late middle aged, portly figure with a distinctly balding head.
Here and in his previous appearance in #13 his age is indeterminate but he is slimmer (no problem when you are that rich) and has a full head of long flowing blonde hair (again no problem when you are rich) with no numerals mentioned.
A McCauley next appears in v4, again slim and with long blondish hair now tied back in a ponytail. In v4 #39 (ironically called Beginnings as well) both III and IV appear and IV is the slim ponytail one with III portrayed as portly, significantly older, and bald. III's self talk matches more with the Adventure McCauley than the one appearing here.
(We also have the arrogant youngster from Superboy #214 but although he claims Leland McCauley as his father we don't know his name nor if he is the eldest and heir.)
Based on the 2995 Mayfair Source Book there is some 15 years between the first appearance of III and the appearance of both III and IV in v4 #39. This story is 5-6 years after the Adventure story and 9-10 years before the v4 period.
All of this would make me think that this McCauley is probably IV. The fly in the ointment is the LSH Who's Who from this era specifically states that this is III. (It also states that the young boy was in fact IV.) It certainly could be that III had some surgery etc done to improve his looks which wore off during his "captivity" by his son IV. Maybe his son wears his hair longer and blond especially to show his father how he can even do his looks better.
So opinions anyone?
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
While I am pleasantly surprised and thrilled that you have so many kind words for LaRocque's work on this issue, I have to wonder -- who are the artists whose faces you compare unfavorably to his? Off the top of my head, I thought of Perez, whom I know is a favorite of yours, but I'm curious as to who else. I was thinking along the comparative lines of realism and complexity in LaRocques art, when I was thinking about an answer to this one. But having done that, I think that it's simply that faces and some limb positioning isn't a strong suit at this time. It's not that this is a style that's adopted for dynamic Kirby purposes or Infantino motion either. stile86 gives some examples above. This comes with big caveats that it's on a futuristic monthly book, with a huge cast and scope that made earlier industry artists avoid it like the plague. Also, it's a time of transition for DC with a huge event to be crossed over into and that often happens at shorter notice. Not to mention he's picking up from other artists also at a bit of short notice. So, all things considered... He's one of many superhero artists that are saved by distinctive hairstyles and costumes as a way of identifying the characters. These are both things he's strong in - Vi and Brin come to mind for hair and Shady for costume and ears. I don't have the issue in front of me, but I think the pen pics showed an improvement of quality, despite presumably being also drawn at fairly short notice, because he doesn't have to divert resources to backgrounds and page composition etc. The one thing I get confused about is exactly which Leland McCauley this is, III or IV. I thought this was IV, who was the boy we saw several years ago grown up and making himself look older by having facial hair. He was spoiled back then in his little bubble world and his delusions haven;t got any better in the intervening years.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861
Time Trapper
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OP
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861 |
I also consider this guy to be Leland IV, although it makes more sense to me timewise that the red-haired kid in SLSH #214 is Leland the IV's son. The kid must have been 10 or so in that story. How much time has elapsed since then? Could it be as much as six or eight years? At the end of #214, he apologized for his bad behaviour and the Legionnaires thought he'd changed - so if that kid is indeed the current Leland IV grown up, maybe he hates R.J. Brande but has some good memory about the Legion (and especially Shady cuddling him).
That "I hate Interlac - Larry" is pretty good - nice little joke for readers who took the time to translate!
I didn't know that this issue was actively promoted as a new beginning and a jumping-on point for new readers and agree with others who've said the story doesn't work too well in that regard.
Holy Cats of Egypt!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141 |
Nura must have a very good idea of how accurate her power is yet she's often put on the defensive as others question it. She's never responded in an angry manner or shown to be depressed at her teammates lack of confidence in her precognition (except in the reboot). She could just as easily respond with "I see your future and it's not pretty" snark, but doesn't. I'm not sure certain other Legionnaires would be so mature if their powers were continually questioned.
Nura could totally have fun with her precognitive abilities! "Hey, Dirk, I see you're going out on a date. Be sure to take extra protection." [Hours later, Dirk returns, grumbling.] "Why did you tell me to take extra protection?" "Because I knew it would rain, silly. What did you think I meant?" Shameless self-promotion: My own, much younger precog character has some fun with her abilities in my novel The Power Club and novella False Alarm. However, the story—like the break itself—takes too long to go anywhere and doesn’t amount to much. Interesting that you must have had a similar opinion when you first read it, given the low ranking of this issue among your list! Indeed. I suspect I'll agree with Annfie that much of this era is merely marking time. However, at least one of the next several issues reaches No. 1 on my Top 25. Anybody care to guess which one? I didn't mind the humour, although it did seem out of place given the tone of the story overall. That the Legionnaires stood aside struck me as their deference to him - if he wants to beat up on the rat in his nest, let him have at it. If things got out of hand, they could easily have intervened. There's also the idea that when Brande commands, the Legion jumps - which McCauley was complaining about and which we've seen in previous issues.
Those are all good explanations for the Legion's behavior, but they seem to come out of nowhere to me. I've never noticed Brande pulling the strings; mostly, he's been a benign sugar daddy--letting the Legion govern its own affairs while he simply pays the bills. Of course, the Legion runs whenever he's in trouble--but who wouldn't run to help a parental or uncle figure?
There is a sense that McCauley is beyond the reach of the Legion due to his riches, but it could be that they have instructions from Brande to let it be and, again, stand aside at Brande's request. That's partly why I'd like to have seen McCauley go after the other characters who are richer than he is - as a villain that the Legion would pursue and eventually bring to justice.
Indeed. Nura's exact words are "Brande won't let us press charges"--which is odd; it implies that Brande has some connection/influence over the law, as does McCauley. I don't mind the Legion having an antagonist who believes he's above the law, but more should come of it than we're shown here: a grudge match between two wealthy individuals who endanger the lives of Legionnaires and civilians and know nothing can touch them. Brande and McCauley were both represented much better in the reboot--so was the Legion; they had the means to counter and influence the outcomes without looking merely like patsies. McCauley's grudge war with other rich people might make an interesting miniseries. Call it Metropolis Crest. I was never really happy with Nura's dream being so out of whack. It works about as well as that famous quote from a certain space opera movie trilogy about a certain characters father being killed by himself when he became a bad guy "So what I told you was true ... from a certain point of view." Agreed. I thought the ending was a cheesy copout--a "twist" that would have been more appropriate in the Silver Age. (We also have the arrogant youngster from Superboy #214 but although he claims Leland McCauley as his father we don't know his name nor if he is the eldest and heir.) Interesting notion that the kid from 214 might be the younger brother of Leland McCauley in # 17. We never did get the kid's name. I also consider this guy to be Leland IV, although it makes more sense to me timewise that the red-haired kid in SLSH #214 is Leland the IV's son. The kid must have been 10 or so in that story. How much time has elapsed since then? Could it be as much as six or eight years? At the end of #214, he apologized for his bad behaviour and the Legionnaires thought he'd changed - so if that kid is indeed the current Leland IV grown up, maybe he hates R.J. Brande but has some good memory about the Legion (and especially Shady cuddling him). According the Mayfair Sourcebook (I have an earlier one than the one stile86 mentioned), issue 214 occurred during Year 9 (Mon-El's second term as leader), and the current year is Year 14 (Element Lad's second term), so five years have passed. I wonder if Levitz even remembered the story in 214, as there is no mention of it--and you would think McCauley and/or the Legionnaires would draw on that association, especially as trivia-minded as Levitz could be. Whatever later stories established, I like the idea of the kid being LMIV's younger brother more and more. Since the kid doesn't seem to have a name, I propose Donald. My grandfather's name was Leland, and he had a brother named Donald.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
I think that we're all missing the answer as to which McCauley this is. The answer is obvious. It’s none of them. The character you’re seeing here is in fact… Supergirl! This is Levitz’s way of sneaking her in under Berger’s nose, now that his plans for Sensor Girl have been refused. Compare the bodies of Kara and Leland McCauley being carried by conspirator Kal El. The man who can travel through time, was on the scene of Kara's death and who can move at superspeed to make a switch. Kara Leland... or is it the other way round...? A big clue to Sensor Girl was to be the blonde hair. Compare the locks of Sensor Girl to Leland's. Clearly the Leland we're seeing here is a red kryptonite affected Supergirl, who thinks she's Leland McCauley. Supergirl has previous on identity problems as shown with her Satan Girl persona. The Legion has previous with women impersonating men, as Ayla showed early in her career. I'd not be surprised if the "oh no" in the panel below was actually uttered by a switched Leland McCauley from the 30th century. Brainy spent all his time looking at Kara's moment of death in issue 16, and 18... ... not because he was mourning. But because he was making sure his and Kal's tracks were covered. How did he even get that image if he didn't have someone on the scene? Another Lost Tale of the Legion solving another mystery...
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141 |
Of course, there is always ProFem (or whatever the masculine version is).
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861
Time Trapper
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OP
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861 |
ProMasc, perhaps. That blonde hair - what a giveaway! And one presumes that the Television Time Viewer, or the other equipment the Legion used to spy on Superboy in Smallville, was operative to record Supergirl's death.
And the kid henceforth shall be Donald McCauley, the First.
Holy Cats of Egypt!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861
Time Trapper
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OP
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,861 |
LSH #18 "Return of the Infinite Man" or "Has Anyone Noticed a Crisis Going On?" by Paul Levitz, art by Greg LaRocque & Larry Mahlstadt, colors by Carl Gafford, letters by John Costanza Rond Vidar discovers there's a Crisis going on and freaks out. He runs to Brainiac 5 for answers, but a distraught Brainy can only say he doesn't remember. At Legion HQ, Jan, Tasmia and Lar prepare to send off Kid Psycho's memorial to Shangalla, but then forget how he died. Takron Galtos is splitting apart from anti-matter. Legionnaires arrive to help SPs evacuate prisoners, but the prisoners attack the Legionnaires. Pol is suckered in by one prisoner's plea for help, then attacked, but Ayla rescues him. As a tractor beam pulls the prisoners into a transport ship, Ayla and Dirk try to remember why anti-matter is tearing the prison planet apart. Rond and Brainy examine the anti-matter disasters sweeping across the universe; Brainy suspects something in the Time Institute is enabling them to remember while others forget these events happened. The Chronarch suggests that the Time Beacon is the reason; Brainy believes that increasing the power of the Beacon could save Earth. On Takron-Galtos, Tellus searches for stray prisoners and unleashes Validus, who immediately goes on a rampage. Dirk and Thom rush to help and try to subdue the monster. A portal opens. Validus responds to a summon from the portal and disappears. Using the powers of Brek, Wildfire and Lar, Brainy magnifies the Time Beacon's power. Something else else goes wrong and the Infinite Man appears, casting the Legionnaires into a space with multiple Earths. The Infinite Man has plans for vengeance, beginning with Rond Vidar. On Takron-Galtos, the last of the prisoners are rounded up, with Dirk personally handling Regulus. Thom wonders if some have escaped while Dirk wonders why this is all happening. At Legion HQ, Nura learns that the Infinite Man is loose and signals the other Legionnaires. Only Blok, Mysa, Jacques and Quislet are available. At the Time Institute, Rond is protected by Brainy's force shield. The Infinite Man summons a large assortment of beings, including many of the Anti-Monitor's minions, to exact his vengeance. Nura's team arrives to help. Takron-Galtos falls to pieces. Jan tells Jacques to use his dimension-shifting power on the Infinite Man, but Jacques explains he can't control that power. Brainy proposes that Mysa cast an affinity spell. She does so, commanding his power to return through time to whence it came. The spell succeeds and restores the human Jaxon Rugarth. Brainy fears that with the Infinite Man gone, their world will be subjected to the worst effects of the Crisis. On Medicus One, Dr. Gym'll treats Shadow Lass for an injury as Rond and Brainy watch a sleeping Rugarth. Comments:Momentous events, but I don't have the feeling that much happened. Everything spun out of control, then settled down by the last page. It was like a break in a water pipe getting plugged. Rond and Brainy freak out, the other Legionnaires are curious or puzzled, but there's no sense of any widespread panic or concern. The 20th century Crisis took 12 issues; the Legion version takes about one and a half. Could this issue be read as a stand-alone, without having followed the Crisis series? I think it could be, but it would lose a lot of the impact - the idea that the Crisis is rolling through the universe and through time. There's a resolution of the Infinite Man/Jaxon Rugarth story, although we don't know what shape Rugarth will be in once he comes out of his sleep or coma. Once again, it was Mysa who solved the problem with magic, a counterbalance to all the science-fictiony explanation of the Time Beacon. I'd forgotten Mysa's role here and it helps to explain why she would break with the Legion later over the treatment of Rugarth. However, there isn't necessarily a final resolution to the Crisis itself. The issue ends with Brainy wondering what happens next, leaving the door open for events in future issues. The biggest event that has a lasting effect - apart from Supergirl's death in the previous issue - is the destruction of Takron-Galtos and the possibility of assorted missing prisoners. Kid Psycho's death is as forgettable for the reader as it becomes for the Legionnaires. We're reminded again that Jacques doesn't fully control his powers. I'd be expecting this to be a set-up for a graceful exit. Reading this brought to mind the Mandela Effect and I'd be curious to know if the person (or people) who first came up with that concept had read Crisis.
Holy Cats of Egypt!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
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LoSH v3 18Using the Infinite Man as a Legion villain in the Crisis certainly makes for a good cover. He does come from a slightly different origin though. The Infinite Man has never been involved in the existence of DC’s multiverse. The Infinite Man shows that each of those universes also repeats in a loop. Perhaps all those loops have actually been differently universes, each at different stages of development? In Crisis continuity, this story is pitched between issues 7 and 8. However, The Infinite Man is holding back the effects of the Crisis, i.e. post Crisis continuity, I had started to think it was actually later on. That would also explain why the memories of the cast fragment, as its only when the new universe is created that the effects take place. The final caption in the issue refers readers to the final issue of the Crisis, issue 12, again indicating that events here occurred after the creation of a new universe at the end of issue 10. But elsewhere in the story, Rond suggests that the merging worlds is currently happening, which would be after #6 but before the end of #10. Also, the destruction of Takron Galtos occurs, and that’s referenced in Crisis before the end of #10. Confusing things even more an editorial decision was made to allow those who had been at the dawn of time to recall all of the events of the Crisis. This was due to an opinion that if they didn’t remember the events, then it would invalidate the story. Never mind that the readers would still recall everything. Further wrinkles would be that the new DCU wasn’t ready for the end of Crisis #10 and there would be plenty of further changes as the relaunches took place. Later, DC would lump all of these into a continuity wave that swept through the DCU after the event. Readers who liked the plot of this issue may also want to check out the All Star Squadron and Infinity Inc annuals. In those, Mekanique is performing the same function of holding back the Crisis. In those, Thomas was trying to wrap up as many loose ends as he could before the reboot. There’s less of that necessity in this story. The first Post Crisis member of the Legion seems to be Melodrama Lad. Starting off the story with “Ayyyeeeiii” and “asunder” is not a good sign. In the Time Institute, Rond Vidar has discovered that the Crisis has been occurring for weeks, but that none of it is being reported. Legionnaires have been involved, and we see snippets of them from the pages of Crisis, but no one has said anything. We see Kid Psycho’s death and the Legion attacking an anti-matter wave from #3. We also see the destruction of the monitor’s satellite from #6 (the Legion is tapping into AM’s omnicam feed) and even the origin points for both monitors. Vidar is making a Supergirl memorial for Brainiac, so he still remembers her. I would have thought that Brainy would have a big enough memorial of his own, but it’s nice that someone cares. Fortunately, or rather because Levitz sneakily did this in #16, Brainy is also at the institute. He watches Kara’s death over and over. Vidar thinks that the Crisis of merging Earths is ongoing (that suggests it’s earlier than #10) and wonders why no one has mentioned it. Brainy can’t mention it, as neither he or anyone else remembered. Both Kid Psycho and Supergirl are still dead, but with Kid Psycho at least, no one remembers how they died. This seems to be linked to the idea that characters killed by the Crisis are also wiped from continuity, rather that still existing, but dying to a foe in an altered timeline. Presumably Kid Psycho’s memorial will vanish at some point. The main action in the issue is the destruction of Takron Galtos. This forms part of the Monitor tapes in issue 10 of Crisis. There’s a suggestion it was targeted, but it may just be Harbinger blaming all such disasters generally on the work of the AM. The Legionnaires are called to prevent escapes and to round up and evacuate the prisoners. Oddly, they keep the villains’ weapons and costumes at the facility allowing the Persuader access to his axe. Dawnstar does well in preventing a death and in getting the Fatal Five member captured. By virtue of her speed, she’s first on the scene, but doesn’t hesitate to get involved. There’s a nice moment where the villains mistake Pol for Rokk and in him showing some naivete in getting caught out by them. It’s Ayla to the rescue, which is an early sign of the two of them getting closer. Outside of their stories, none of the villains seems to pose much threat. The LSV members are rounded up easily enough (Ayla gets a Titania rematch). Recently beaten Regulus looks beaten, and Organus doesn’t put up a fight. Dirk doesn’t mind grabbing other people’s shoulders, even if he doesn’t like it himself as per last issue. At the Time Institute, Vidar, Brainy and Chronarch realise that people are forgetting about the event of the Crisis as quickly as they began. That includes the red skies, the storms as well as the Anti-Matter and the battles. It seems that it’s not the new universe that’s being held off, but the memories of the escalating events that are being suppressed. Takron Galtos is being destroyed, but no one knows why. Those who were summoned to various hero groupings also don’t recall them. Chronarch suggests that the beacon itself is causing these effects, if not the disasters. On Takron Galtos, Tellus inadvertently releases Validus. The Legion do what they can to save him, but he’s just too powerful to be restrained. In an Echo of the Great Darkness Saga, Validus is saved by Darkseid, leading into events in an upcoming annual. The scene with Validus is also a tie in with Crisis 10 where the villain is seen rampaging across Takron Galtos. That isn’t what happens in the issue. But at least Validus is in the right place. In Crisis #8-9, Validus is one of the villains summoned by Brainiac and Luthor. Perhaps they were all locked up again really quickly for the events in issue 10. To prevent further loss of memory and with a view to saving the Earth, Brainy looks to boost the power of the Time Beacon. Brek is brought in, as his powers can reduce things to absolute zero. Quite a power upgrade since his first appearance. The beacon becomes a single super conductor for Wildfire and Mon El’s energies. Element Lad is the one who asks the question on what all of the outpouring energy is doing. Chronarch tells him that the beacon normally for travellers to guide them not only to the right temporal location… but to the right universe (a great reveal with loads of story potential that appears just before the multiverse is wiped away. ) There’s an “uh oh” moment at Chronarch’s reveal. If the normal beacon guides normal time travellers home, who would latch onto a boosted one? The answer is the Infinite Man. Well done Brainy. The Infinite Man’s accidental reappearance mirrors the accidental origin he had. Back at HQ, Dream Girl summons reinforcements. None of them seem to have been reading the case files, allowing Dreamy to give the reader lots of information on the Legion’s past with the villain. Quislet looks forward to meeting the huge danger. The Infinite Man would like us to know that he could wipe us all out at any time he wanted. Any time. Anywhere. He’s not stopped by Higher Plot Powers from doing so you understand. He just prefers to have minions do it for him. Just like last time, and that turned out really well for him. The minions he does summon are excellent though. We get an alternate Legion of sorts. As they’ve all come from different ages, they are a shoo in for time travel Legion stories. Ryssa of Titan is an Imra/Jeckie mix. Element Lad comes up with a good plan, and its nice to see that while it doesn’t get far, it inspires another solution. It’s a shame that it’s Brainy that comes up with it. Perhaps it’s a way of Levitz getting him to atone for summoning the Infinite Man in the first place, as well as all that intelligence. Mysa shows her power levels by getting the Crisis energies to reabsorb the energy taken by the Infinite Man. Better still, Jaxon Rugarth is returned to them. With the villain removed, his play mates go too. The effects of the Crisis will now hit the 30th century. There’s no more mention of them helping to stop the merging worlds here. There’s a mention of the final issue of Crisis, but that’s in a new DCU. None of the Legion are part of that battle. The issue’s meanwhile column is a guest spot from Levitz talking about the identity of Sensor Girl, summarising what we already know and telling us that she’s appeared in the Legion many times. It mentions Supergirl for a couple of the options, and lets us know that the Legionnaires would also share a lot of these guesses. As DC’s premier science fiction book, the Legion is in an odd place when it comes to the Crisis. If it all centred around 1985, why don’t the Legion know everything that happened? If Supergirl died, why haven’t we seen more of their mourning of the event before? This, and issue 16 were Levitz’s attempts to try and address these issues. But it seems to have its chronology a little mixed up. We have the cast forgetting things before the universe is reset at the dawn of time. If its set after that, then the Takron Galtos scenes are out of sequence. Crisis and its logistics were a big task so it’s more important that the issue is a good read. It’s okay, in that it’s fulfilling a crossover function. The threat seems personal to the Legion, with Kid Psycho, Supergirl’s deaths and Brainy’s instability. The Infinite Man is certainly a big enough threat. Li’l thoth in ElsenwhenLegionnaires 3 #1 gives us three Legion books this month! Steve Lightle does a backup 5 pager in Outsiders #3. That will probably be due to a number of DC Baxter books going without ads. Who’s Who, with The Infinite Man, Invisible Kids and Insect Queen, and Crisis are both at #11 Superman #415 reveals Supergirl’s secret marriage. It’s wasn’t Brainy or the Merguy either. With reboots not too far away, it’s the last issue of World’s Finest ending on issue 323. The Justice League of Detroit is over as of #246 as they relocate to their old HQ in Happy Harbour. Lots of stabbing in Batman 391, as the Nightslayer/ Nocturna story reaches a conclusion. It continues in Detective 558. A Brian Bolland cover of Elvia’s House of Mystery #1 would certainly have boosted sales. Guy Gardner, the new Green Lantern, graces the cover of GL 196. He faces off against John Stewart at the end. Hal also appears to pass along the torch. ‘Mazing Man launched this month. Far too silly for me to have bought at the time. But it’s an issue with heart. >sniff< The Omega Men (#34) get into a crossover with the Teen Titans (#16). I don’t think I’ve read that Titans one, but I probably have it somewhere. More Crisis crossovers in Infinity Inc 22, with the Monitor’s satellite scene and featuring the new Doc Midnite and Hourman. Roy Thomas gets every ounce form the max-series by also tying it into All Star Squadron #53, where the team face the Monster Society of Evil. The Truth about Looker continues with Alan Davis art in BatO 29 Li’l thoth got Justice League, Tales of the Teen Titans, Tales of the LoSH, Batman, World’s Finest, Who’s Who and Crisis.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,648
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,648 |
LoSH v3 18 Using the Infinite Man as a Legion villain in the Crisis certainly makes for a good cover. He does come from a slightly different origin though. The Infinite Man has never been involved in the existence of DC’s multiverse. The Infinite Man shows that each of those universes also repeats in a loop. Perhaps all those loops have actually been differently universes, each at different stages of development?
A Douglas Nolan follow-up, which would've been more multiverse specific, probably would've been more interesting.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29,248
Time Trapper
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Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29,248 |
LoSH v3 18 Using the Infinite Man as a Legion villain in the Crisis certainly makes for a good cover. He does come from a slightly different origin though. The Infinite Man has never been involved in the existence of DC’s multiverse. The Infinite Man shows that each of those universes also repeats in a loop. Perhaps all those loops have actually been differently universes, each at different stages of development?
A Douglas Nolan follow-up, which would've been more multiverse specific, probably would've been more interesting. It sure seems, though, that Douglas Nolan was always intended as a one-shot character, never meant to be referenced again. (Can't remember if he ever got mentions later, but it sure seems like he didn't, at least during Levitz's tenure.) This kinda suits the nature of LSH 300 and both its primarily self-contained adventure and its larger purpose as an alternate history exploration and an Adult Legion debunker.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,847 |
I imagine that Levitz didn't really want to go over not just recent ground, but as Paladin says a character with a specific goal within issue #300.
Douglas got a mention from Andrew when he was a character in the Mordruverse and that adult story of course.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29,248
Time Trapper
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Time Trapper
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Posts: 29,248 |
Yeah, I was gonna say he never got mentioned again, but I had a germ of a memory from that story and post-boot, too, I think. Otherwise he was a great one-shot story device.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141 |
LSH 18 In spite of the character histrionics, the Crisis tie-in, and the blundering (again) of Brainy, I enjoyed this issue. If you've got to do a Big Event tie-in, this one isn't too bad. It begins with Rond realizing that events have been happening that no one remembers (shades of Anti-Lad!) and snapping Brainy out of his self-pity. Work truly is the best cure for heartbreak, at least for Brainiac 5, and, in short order, he and his colleagues have figured out what's happening and how to stop it. Never mind the technobabble about the time beacon; the latter provides a direction for the characters to act and a reasonably good one that builds off previous stories. The destruction of Takron-Galtos (a Crisis sacrificial lamb, and a more significant one than the poor, unlamented Kid Psycho) increases the tension and allows a significant number of our heroes to get in on the event. Nura's call to action at HQ serves the same function, and, even though most Legionnaires get only a few short scenes before being abandoned by the narrative (Brek, Jacques, Quislet), I didn't mind. They served their purpose in the story (well, except Quislet; I'm still not sure what purpose he serves in the series. ). Brainy redeems himself--both for his Kara fixation and for unleashing the Infinite Man--by finding the solution. I thought it was a good touch that he took Element Lad's idea and ran with it. This is teamwork. It shows how someone can come up with an idea and, though it may not work, it leads to an even greater idea. Good teams don't care who gets the credit or who comes up with the final plan; everyone contributes. I also thought it was well handled how several characters worry about memory lapses. With the prevalence of Alzheimer's disease, loss of memory is a serious issue. I'm not sure I would jump to Mon-El's concern about "something wrong with our world" so quickly, but, for Brainy--whose brain is the source of his power and identity--loss of control would be especially frightening. There are also several good touches, such as Dawnstar singlehandedly capturing the Persuader, Pol's newbie status resulting in a punch in the face, and Tellus's newbie status causing him to release Validus (and, you can't destroy a good villain, so Darkseid's boom tube arrives just in time). I also think Jan demonstrates good leadership because he knows he's out of his depth and leaves it to Brainy and others to call the shots. The story ends without the initial problem being resolved, but I'm fine with that. It does resolve the Infinite Man/Jaxon Rugarth story--not that anyone was asking for such a resolution after all this time. But our heroes earn a decisive victory for a change.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141 |
I really liked this one at the time, too, as my Top 25 of October 15, 1985, shows:
1. Nightcrawler # 3 -- Marvel 2. Star Trek # 22 -- DC 3. Iron Man # 202 -- Marvel 4. New Teen Titans # 16 -- DC 5. Crisis on Infinite Earths # 11 -- DC 6. West Coast Avengers # 5 -- Marvel 7. Captain America # 313 -- Marvel 8. Infinity Inc. # 21 --Marvel 9. Legion of Super-Heroes # 18 -- DC 10. Squadron Supreme # 6 -- Marvel
11. Vision & Scarlet Witch # 4 -- Marvel 12. Blue Devil # 19 -- DC 13. Justice League of America # 246 -- DC 14. Nexus # 17 -- First 15. Power Man & Iron Fist # 121 -- Marvel 16. Amazing Spider-Man # 272 -- Marvel 17. All-Star Squadron # 53 -- DC 18. Superman # 415 -- DC 19. Fantastic Four # 286 -- Marvel 20. Green Lantern # 196 -- DC
21. DC Challenge # 3 -- DC 22. Fury of Firestorm # 43 -- DC 23. Legionnaires 3 # 1 -- DC 24. New Defenders # 151 -- Marvel 25. Avengers # 263 -- Marvel
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,648
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
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It sure seems, though, that Douglas Nolan was always intended as a one-shot character, never meant to be referenced again. (Can't remember if he ever got mentions later, but it sure seems like he didn't, at least during Levitz's tenure.) This kinda suits the nature of LSH 300 and both its primarily self-contained adventure and its larger purpose as an alternate history exploration and an Adult Legion debunker.
I wouldn't really describe him as a "one-shot character", since he'd appeared before, which is why he's used in LSH #300. The point is, though, that LSH #300 *is* the most prominent use of the multiverse idea in Legion history, so if you're going to have a Crisis crossover, one that referenced that story would probably have made more sense than bringing back the Infinite Man, who I don't think anyone was clamoring to see return. Plus DN was specifically described as "having a will that defied the Time Beacon" or some such, so, if looking for a character to stave off the effects of Crisis and stuff like that, he'd make a lot of sense. I believe there's a discussion of him in one of the letter columns post-Crisis as well.
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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29,248
Time Trapper
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Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29,248 |
It sure seems, though, that Douglas Nolan was always intended as a one-shot character, never meant to be referenced again. (Can't remember if he ever got mentions later, but it sure seems like he didn't, at least during Levitz's tenure.) This kinda suits the nature of LSH 300 and both its primarily self-contained adventure and its larger purpose as an alternate history exploration and an Adult Legion debunker.
I wouldn't really describe him as a "one-shot character", since he'd appeared before, which is why he's used in LSH #300. The point is, though, that LSH #300 *is* the most prominent use of the multiverse idea in Legion history, so if you're going to have a Crisis crossover, one that referenced that story would probably have made more sense than bringing back the Infinite Man, who I don't think anyone was clamoring to see return. Plus DN was specifically described as "having a will that defied the Time Beacon" or some such, so, if looking for a character to stave off the effects of Crisis and stuff like that, he'd make a lot of sense. I believe there's a discussion of him in one of the letter columns post-Crisis as well. That's fair enough. But I doubt that Paul himself had any desire to revisit Douglas, even if it would have served the story. I'm sure, however, that he'd had it in the back of his mind to revisit the Infinite Man at some point since he'd created the character years before and left his story unresolved. In a preface to whatever hardcover introduced the IM, Paul lists him as one of his significant character contributions to Legion lore. Whether fans feel the same is debatable, but Paul clearly had some fondness for him.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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