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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959704 09/20/18 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
Ditto! I'm too artless for that conversation, though.


Thanks for your kind support, Cramey. hug

And while I may be great at talking artwork styles, I am also a sci-fi fan who knows zilch about hard science. Whenever Legion Worlders start discussing fictional science's plausibility, or lack thereof, I'm always like, "I got nothin'." LOL lol


Still "Fickles" to my friends.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959717 09/20/18 08:02 PM
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LSH 15

This was a snoozer, at least for me. Looking back, I always seem to forget this issue with my mind going straight from the induction of the new members to their "baptism" next issue. There's nothing really wrong with the issue but it just doesn't seem to serve much purpose. reading through the comments above has given me a few new things to reflect on.

Some bits of the art are terrific, including the page where Mon-El is grabbed, while other bits, particularly faces, are a bit weird. I wonder if starting a new artist they decided to use a less significant story to begin.

I agree with HWW that Dr Regulus has been used better. The Superboy #191 story is the one I always remember. I wonder is it significant that the LSV apparently never recruited him? Sure they already had a similar power set with Sun Emperor but the vendetta Dr Reg has for Sun Boy is not dissimilar to those held by other LSV members e.g. Lightning Lord, Micro Lad. Every time we see him revenge seems to be the only thing on his mind, yet we know from his backstory that his work on radioactive gold was intended to provide him with wealth and power. Let's also keep in mind that the LSV recruited such power houses as Ron Karr.

The side plots and character moments don't do much to advance their individual storylines but I suppose there are some elements that have meaning in hindsight.

Wildfire's comment about his suits seems just to be about why he never demonstrates the powers he did at his first audition, but it's a pity that nothing more seems to be made of his suits giving different powers (although I do like how it allows the artists to keep subtly modifying his look).

Nice to see the link to the old dragons of Imsk story but I am surprised at the strength of Shadow Lass's power - can it really block out a sun, or is she just darkening a portion of the sky? Also Sun Boy can shoot out solar flares and radiate heat and light himself but I'm not sure he can be as directional as shown here. Having him someway ahead of the ship attracting the dragons might have worked better.

I hadn't thought of Dirk and Gim's words reflecting tension from the incident with Gigi. Good thought. Same for Thom and E-lad.

The scene on Shanghalla was intended to have future consequences with Myg but from memory they don't play out much. The most we get of his motivations is from Who's Who where the description says:
Quote
When he awoke and realised that they were no longer on Lythyl, he maintained a curious silence until the three stopped at Karate Kid's memorial on Shanghalla. Awed that a man with similar skills could command such respect even after death, Myg vowed to follow in the path of this Karate Kid, taking his name and asking to be enrolled in the Legion Academy. While Myg's skills need no polishing, his haughty attitude has kept him from becoming a full legionnaire thus far.While the other Academy students study combat, Myg studies gentler arts such as those practiced by the original Karate Kid, constantly striving to prove himself even better than his predecessor.


The Rokk/Lydda interlude shows that the Subs really have completely disbanded, even to getting rid of their clubhouse, so finishes that "plot" from Polar Boy's off-hand remark, and also continues the holiday plot. This will become VERY significant in a while (over a year actually - long vacation) but really does nothing here.

The battle with Sun Boy goes over 4 pages - very surprising. It feels so underwhelming that I thought it was even shorter.

I hadn't connected Vi's dash to help with her apparent flirtation with Sun Boy recently. The one episode it did remind me of, at least the holding back bit, was back in LSH v2 #197 when some legionnaires were held back from interfering with Cosmic Boy's attack on the creeps that fireballed his family. Interestingly it was Sun Boy that held the others back. the two incidents are not the same, this case being staying out of a battle brought on by the bad guy and the previous being maybe precenting a colleague from making a tragic mistake, but Sun Boy's involvement both times may reflect a tendency by him to support independent action. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it. Probably.

The final side plot of Brainiac 5 is to me the most important. While falling into the frequent writer's time travel trap of time moving constantly in the past and the future, it sets up what I found to be a very well written piece in the following issue. I much prefer the characterisation of Brainy here and than how he is portrayed in the future - cold and arrogant - based on Giffen's portayal of his ancestor in L.E.G.I.O.N. Brainy has always had elements of talking down to his teammates but that was always tempered by his very real emotional connection to them. This is a good way to end the issue.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959839 09/22/18 01:34 PM
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Comments

Originally Posted by Cramer
Wildfire gripes about the "brats" but it appears he defended them when explaining the situation to Jan.


Good to see that Drake has his private and public outbursts.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Since Regulus managed to ambush the more experienced Legionnaires as well, we can excuse the newbies for falling into the trap.


Sure, but I’d still have rather had their first mission feature them a bit more positively.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Doctor Regulus is not one of my favourite villains, by far. He might be more suited to comic relief in a Giffen spoof. Is this his fourth attempt to bring down Dirk Morgna? He lacks the intensity of Mekt Ranzz and strikes me as more petulant than threatening.


I quite liked his pact with the flame creatures this time. Even if we have no idea how that came about. His obsession beaten again, where to now for Regulus? I think it’s full blown revenge/insanity in Black Dawn.

Originally Posted by Cramer
I have to wonder what Regulus thought the end-game would be if he defeated Dirk. Would a whole team of Legionnaires (with more on the way) not have been able to subdue and capture him had Dirk been killed?


Stepped back into the flames as the flame creatures distracted/ defended their home. The legion code would prevent the Legion from destroying the place, allowing Regulus to try and get away. Against Lar and Sensor Girl, he has little chance and, considering his victory. I don’t think he’d mind being caught.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The idea of an enemy so focused on one person that he abandons the chance to gain serious villain cred by killing a group of Legionnaires has a lot of potential, but Regulus comes across more as a showoff than a vengeance-seeker. Ego meets ego. Perhaps that radioactive gold has been rotting his brain.


Was it v4 that made me think that loss of status to lab assistant Dirk sparked him off in the first place. I still think Dirk may have had some (but not most) responsibility for what happened.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Each new containment suit gives Wildfire slightly different powers? That's a new one and looks like a set-up for playing around with the character's power set in future stories. It doesn't really make sense that the containment suit specs would vary to that degree - and Wildfire hasn't been pulling rabbits out of hats lately, so I don't see the need for this explanation, except as a basis for surprises yet to come.


I think with scenes like this Levitz has plotted that the new Legionnaires are the off panel focus for the start of this story. It keeps the theme from the last issue. He’s chosen to make it a Sun Boy vs Regulus story, so he has the newbies get captured. To make that seem less of a foul up, and to follow through with Drake’s position, he has Wildfire caught too. Now he has to give Wildfire something to do, as soon as he’s decided to make Drake the opening point of the story. That plotting logic is also responsible for why Drake vanishes half way through the issue. His purpose for the plot was only for the opening scenes. So I think Drake’s costume dialogue was done at the end of the planning process, to give him something to do while he got back to raise the alarm.
I know HWW thought this nod to Legion history was a bit pointless, and it really was, but more because it was an addition to a scene that didn’t have a pay off, and was added because there had to be something for his to do, than for the nod in itself.

Originally Posted by Cramer
It's not just a ploy to fall into Lar's arms, which worked so well way back in their Smallville adventure.


It’s probably because I read it in a companion, but Levitz described Tasmia as just the sort of person to do this sort of thing. I think there’s a bit of both going on here.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Another fainting damsel, with no excuse, is Lydda: is she agoraphobic? Reduced to tears in a crowd! She claims the Subs "folded" on her. Without Brek, the group must have been unwilling to continue, which puts their dedication or abilities into question. Lydda might well have been capable of leading them herself, but she's more interested in trailing after Rokk at this point.


I sued to have a misconception that the Subs were always unheralded underdogs. So when Lydda was spooked by the crowd, I thought that the Subs weren’t used to having such adulation. But they’d had parades and lots of success, including offers of Legion membership for Stone Boy, by that point.

With the perception that the Legion don’t want them, having your own leader walk away was probably seen to be a death blow to the team’s confidence. Again, that’s misplaced due to the successes they’ve had.

Originally Posted by Cramer
After reading your and Thoth's comments on this scene, it occurs to me that she might have been shedding tears for the end of the Subs. It must have been emotional for her, even if she was moving on with her life. I thought it was the crowds, but it could have been end of an era sadness.


That makes lots of sense. Stile86 mentions the closing of the Subs clubhouse too.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Computo continues to screw up, mistaking a disembodied Wildfire for an intruder, and leaving the door open for problems in the future.

Good spot again on the continuing major domo issues.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Vi and Dirk have gotten a little chummier, she saying that he would be wasted steering dragons away. She's the only one who tries to intervene in his battle with Regulus. This could be a result of their recent (possible) closeness, or her awareness of what it was like to be abandoned by your friends (even if they didn't realize she had been kidnapped). She's sharp-tongued with the new kids, though, saying they were easily caught by Regulus although she herself saw how powerful the flare-creatures were.


Good shout on Vi’s sense of abandonment Cramer. That makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The disagreements over new members continue, even now that the five have been accepted. Gim and Tasmia are critical; Dirk thinks the newbies should just jump in. One does have to question, at least in retrospect, why all five would be sent together on a training mission instead of splitting them up to work with experienced Legionnaires.


I was thinking along those lines too. But we’re never given any details of what their mission actually was. Drake could have just been showing them the cruiser controls for all we ‘re given. Something else else very simple, before they go off to shadow other members (as opposed to Tasmia Shadowing them smile ).

Originally Posted by Cramer
Brainy mulls over the death of Supergirl and hopes it doesn't happen. This sort of wishful thinking wouldn't make sense for him but one might accept it as his honest emotion overcoming logic. Looking back, however, it's another clue that Sensor Girl might be Kara.


Yes, that’s another good point with both plot strands being close together in the issue.

Originally Posted by Cramer
This seems like an odd limitation on Dirk's powers. He's on or off, can adjust the strength of radiance but that's it?


Considering he started out as Lightbulb Lad, projecting heat is progress! smile

Originally Posted by Anne Hebistand
More than anything, when LaRocque was really cooking, he provided a welcome infusion of *energy!* A level of energy I haven't seen on the Legion since...maybe as far back as the Omega Saga! And I believe that is because, unlike Lightle or Giffen, LaRocque was a fast worker who did not over-think his drawings. There is a genuine kinesthetic quality to LaRocque's art which, to my mind, made him perhaps better suited for Flash (which he would draw for over 5 consecutive years) than for the Legion. But I would also argue that LaRocque took over the Legion at a perfect time. With Lightle being a meticulous perfectionist, and Giffen being Giffen, the Legion's book had, by this point, fallen so far behind schedule that it was almost absurd. I assert, *needed* a pedal-to-the-metal, no-nonsense professional at this moment, if only to get itself back on track, and, yes, back to basics.


Thanks for that Anne. I’ll try and look at the art taking this into account.

Originally Posted by Anne Hebistand
And I'll just bet the ladies of the Legion have been circulating that device since the Cockrum era -- that'd explain why most of them suddenly grew their hair much longer.

V4 would certainly have got off to a much lighter start if we first met Dirk taking one of those devices off his head, and showing off his longer locks. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
The brilliant Lightle cover gives us our five new recruits kidnapped in a fiery circle by Dr. Regulus. However, the newbies play only a small role in the story, so the cover feels like a bait-and-switch. Instead of Lightle's art gracing the interior, newcomer Greg LaRocque takes over. His art is competent and inspiring in some areas, but other images appear underdeveloped. It took me awhile to warm up to Lightle (or for the latter to find his style, perhaps); I suspect I'll feel the same about LaRocque.


That’s a fair point. The subplots had certainly been building up to all-new membership. The next logical step would have been to show them off a bit. I’d caution that with not wanting the new members to outshine the old ones though. Levitz would later fall into panel hog, if not Mary Sue, territory with a couple of them.


Originally Posted by HWW
Dirk and Gim continue their feud, building nicely off the "Triangle?" story.


Thanks. I’d missed that.

Originally Posted by HWW
Her decision to break the Legion's promise and interfere with the fight reminded me of Ultra Boy's similar decision to break Invisible Kid's word back in Adv. 350-351. I don't know if this allusion was intentional, but, in a series that is becoming rife with references to the past, that's the first place my mind went.


I missed that too. – Aimless Lad. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
The issue ends with the obligatory Crisis tie-in. Brainy realizes it's the anniversary of Kara's death and prays that somehow her death won't come to pass. For this scene to work, it requires us to really suspend our disbelief on how time travel works. Querl must have known all along that Kara would die somehow a thousand years ago. Yet he fell in love with her anyway. A lot of great stories have been written about such impossible romances. I'm not sure Querl and Kara qualify, but I'm curious to see how this story plays out in No. 16. Can't say I remember it.

Brainy’s knowledge of what should be happening is going to be interesting th chart in the next few issues as the Crisis unfolds.

Originally Posted by HWW
You'd think Drake would take an extra suit on the cruiser--folded into an indestructible cannister--so he wouldn't have to travel all the way back to earth.


Do they finally remember to do this later on? I remember someone wolf whistling as he goes into it? Brin would be the best choice for anything wolf-like smile

Originally Posted by HWW
There are a lot of wonderful and subtle hints in this scene. Myg doesn't fight the other two, nor is he restrained. He just calmly (respectfully?) waits by the ship while they pay their last respects. He seems to have accepted his fate.


I generally think of characters being shown who just stand there doing nothing as wallpaper. smile

Originally Posted by Stile86
The scene on Shanghalla was intended to have future consequences with Myg but from memory they don't play out much. The most we get of his motivations is from Who's Who where the description says:…


But respectful distance as he learns of a legacy he might adopt certainly works a lot better. Thanks Stile86.

Originally Posted by Stile86
The Superboy #191 story is the one I always remember. I wonder is it significant that the LSV apparently never recruited him? Sure they already had a similar power set with Sun Emperor but the vendetta Dr Reg has for Sun Boy is not dissimilar to those held by other LSV members e.g. Lightning Lord, Micro Lad. Every time we see him revenge seems to be the only thing on his mind, yet we know from his backstory that his work on radioactive gold was intended to provide him with wealth and power. Let's also keep in mind that the LSV recruited such power houses as Ron Karr.


I think the Baxter arc had Lightning Lord allow his obsession to be governed by the storms he thought he spoke to. A Lost Legion version could easily have had Doctor Regulus stand in front of a fire pit on Orando as he spoke to the flames.

Originally Posted by Stile 86
The side plots and character moments don't do much to advance their individual storylines but I suppose there are some elements that have meaning in hindsight.

Yeah, I think there’s general agreement that they don’t really add enough momentum to the issues.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959840 09/22/18 01:35 PM
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Li’l thoth in Elsenwhen

Crisis #7 is the big one this month for Legion fans, prefigured by Brainy’s comments at the end of #15.

Kara would also guest star in DC Comics #86 this month. She faces Blackstarr, who helps hold back the Crisis a bit. She’s very powerful. There’s a reprise of the meeting with Barbara Gordon and she disappointingly has a feeling of foreboding throughout, because some writers just can’t help themselves when it comes to foreshadowing. It’s written by the Kupperberg who wrote her recently cancelled ongoing.

Kupperberg gives an unusual twist to the end of his Vigilante story in #22. Rather than your traditional Adrian vs new Vigilante face off, Adrian instead meets with someone he cares for and shares his secrets.

Cary Bates can’t help himself when it comes to Foreshadowing either. The Flash is cleared and he ends up in the 30th century with Iris. She’s in a new body and Barry has recently hade his face completely altered. A fair number of the cast seem to know what’s going to happen to him next month in Crisis #8.

Bates has written some of my favourite Superman stories (Sure, I’ve not read lots of Superman stories, but they’d have to be really good to match some of his.) The cover of #412 has him kill an armoured Lex Luthor, and it continues on from the plot that saw Kent fired last issue.

With Flash cancelled, two of the rogues waste no time in making their way to Gotham in Batman 388 and Detective 555.

With Kara and Crisis #7 being the big thing, DC Comics Presents annual 4 is less well known. It has Ordway art and concerns Superwoman, who I doubt we’ll be seeing more of either, despite the time travel aspects (2865) of the story.

The end of Blue Devil #17 ties into Devil going to the JLA Satellite in Crisis #8 with John Stewart. Two characters that would have been JLAers had it not been for JLD.

Green Lantern #193 has John Stewart feel as though he’s becoming proficient at being a Lantern. It foreshadows Mosaic and links in with the Guardians being put out of commission in early issues of Crisis.

The rather dull Neutron makes the Fearsome Five a Six in Tales of the Titans #58. It’s also the issue Psimon gets nabbed for the start of Crisis. Neutron’s powers are a bit like Wildfire’s in places.
The JLA defeat Amazo in #243, but Aquaman resigns. That could have been an opportunity to revitalise the League with Crisis, but it wasn’t taken. Editor Andy Helfer wasn’t far away with coming up with something different though. The end of this leads into the Crisis crossover in Infinity #19. I didn’t get this one for a long time after the event. But it was still disheartening to see the JLD beaten so very easily by a team with the power levels of the old Leaguers.

Another one I’d not read until later was Titans #13 where Cyborg is recruited for Crisis. You could tell Wolfman was busy with the maxi series, as this is a sweeping tale of other events. The subplots are decent though.

Harbinger’s appearance in All Star Squadron #50 sends the JSA rockets into other dimensions, moves Commander Steel across to Earth-1 and other continuity changes as she recruits Firebrand. Uncle Sam takes a horde of characters across to Earth-X, from The Jester to the Blackhawks. Using Harbinger for the rocket direction changes to fit them in with Golden Age stories gets a round of applause.

Red Tornado embraces his new humanity in #4 of his mini, even though it’s been undercut by events in Crisis.

Firestorm graduates, and there’s more on him picking up the Prof’s intelligence. BatO #26 with Davis art heats up as they battle Kobra. World’s Finest has a character called REM who looks very much like an early version of Quentin Quire. It’s also an issue that has to slap a “this occurred before Crisis” label on it, as The Monitor is behind the scenes.

Sgt Rock #405 has the much-advertised Angels with Black Wings story in it. Race is also an issue in Swamp Thing #41 as temporal disturbances take control of a modern film cast.
Finally Who’s Who #8 gives us the Fatal Five, Ferro Lad, Fire Lad and Flash. It also shows Firehawk in her new costume before the Crisis reveal, and has the cover to Crisis #7 on the inside back cover.

On HWW's Comics Survey –

I picked up only a couple of pre-Byrne West Coast Avengers and neither the art or plot did much for me. The idea of Avengers franchises was really good though. TSR released a couple of excellent supplements that used that as a hook for the players.

I’d heard lots of positive things about Squadron Supreme before I ever read it. Back issues for it were a little tough to get locally, and I had three issues for a long time. It was only later that I heard it being used in contrast to Watchmen. I think that was desperate marketing, and not really fair on it.

I think the scope of the plot and the major points were a lot better than the detail. But the goal was to take characters from their very super hero world and push them into dealing with some broader issues. Watchmen took a more realistic world and dropped some tailored characters into it. Even then, Watchmen has the conceit that crimefighters were active and successful for a time, with abilities that looked to be that bit better than even well-trained people.

Looking back, I think Firestorm, Green Lantern and All-Star Squadron had seen better days. GL would get revamped around 200; All Star wouldn’t last too much longer, late 50s or early ‘60s, and Firestorm would get revamped around 63.

I had read a little of Iron Man when I was much younger, but I think the #200 was my first regular US comic of it. Quick check – Yup.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959867 09/22/18 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth
I think with scenes like this Levitz has plotted that the new Legionnaires are the off panel focus for the start of this story. It keeps the theme from the last issue. He’s chosen to make it a Sun Boy vs Regulus story, so he has the newbies get captured. To make that seem less of a foul up, and to follow through with Drake’s position, he has Wildfire caught too. Now he has to give Wildfire something to do, as soon as he’s decided to make Drake the opening point of the story. That plotting logic is also responsible for why Drake vanishes half way through the issue. His purpose for the plot was only for the opening scenes. So I think Drake’s costume dialogue was done at the end of the planning process, to give him something to do while he got back to raise the alarm.
I know HWW thought this nod to Legion history was a bit pointless, and it really was, but more because it was an addition to a scene that didn’t have a pay off, and was added because there had to be something for his to do, than for the nod in itself.


This is a good hypothesis of the choices Levitz likely made while writing the story. However, it also illustrates that if the writer has to give a character something to do, perhaps that character shouldn't be in the story.

Let's see if we can use Occam's Razor to slice through some of these convolutions:

If the story is meant to be a Dirk versus Regulus fight, let's open with the five new recruits on a training exercise. Wildfire might be the one leading them, or it could be someone else. However, this is a good chance for us to get to see each of the five recruits in mock battle, to get a sense of their personalities, and to watch them develop relationships. Then they get ambushed by fire beings. Wildfire or whoever gets captured along with the newbies, establishing that our mysterious foe is formidable indeed. Someone (Tellus using his telekinesis, perhaps?) manages to use the ship's radio to alert Legion HQ just before the ship is destroyed. Receiving the message, Element Lad contacts Sun Boy and his team. We can shorten the Imsk/space dragons scene since it leads nowhere, and the rest of the story proceeds as written.

Quote
I generally think of characters being shown who just stand there doing nothing as wallpaper. smile


Perhaps, but a lot depends on context. Given that Myg was kidnapped from the only home he's ever known and that personal combat was a way of life there, I think "doing nothing" says something about his state of mind. Levitz was a subtle enough writer that I can imagine's that's what he was thinking--which is also supported by the Who's Who entry.

Quote
I picked up only a couple of pre-Byrne West Coast Avengers and neither the art or plot did much for me. The idea of Avengers franchises was really good though. TSR released a couple of excellent supplements that used that as a hook for the players.


I actually liked the pre-Byrne run better. Most or all of it was written by Steve Englehart, who was one of my formative comics writers (he wrote The Avengers, The Defenders, and Captain America when I was just discovering comics). I remember a convoluted-but-still-easy-to-follow time travel story in the 20s, and Hawkeye finally getting a chance to grow as leader.The series seemed like a logical outrgrowth/evolution for many long-time Avengers, including Hank Pym and Wonder Man.

I agree about the art, though. Don Perlin, right? A stalwart artist but hardly inspiring.

Once Byrne arrived, he destroyed the Vision and Wanda's relationship and family and pretty much destroyed Vision as a character, setting their character development back by more than a decade.

Quote
Looking back, I think Firestorm, Green Lantern and All-Star Squadron had seen better days.


I agree, though I remember nothing from the issue numbers alone. My overall memory is that a lot of long-time series were struggling to remain fresh and innovative.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959883 09/23/18 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by HWW
However, it also illustrates that if the writer has to give a character something to do, perhaps that character shouldn't be in the story.


Or he could stand quietly in the background and learn a new course in their lives. smile

Thanks for your revised plot breakdown. It makes sense, as per recent plots, that Wildfire lead the team of new recruits. Getting to see them in action, (personal preference would be a light mission, rather than training. But no zoo animals! smile ) would have also followed directly from last issue. That they are captured gives them a chance to shine, without getting carried away with them.
While I don’t mind Wildfire getting the splash page, and an immediate look at the danger in the issue, I did wonder just how quickly that energy blob could travel. Erg-1 took a while to come back after all.

One possible downside in hindsight to that would be Levitz showing Sensor Girl too closely to Supergirl for comfort. It could all later be established as illusion I suppose.
There’s four pages of Wildfire returning to his suit and Element Lad/ Thom and Nura that could be dropped/ incorporated elsewhere to free up space. I agree that the Imsk sequence could be shortened. It’s 2/4/5 on the panel count, which isn’t a lot.

Originally Posted by HWW
Perhaps, but a lot depends on context. Given that Myg was kidnapped from the only home he's ever known and that personal combat was a way of life there, I think "doing nothing" says something about his state of mind. Levitz was a subtle enough writer that I can imagine's that's what he was thinking--which is also supported by the Who's Who entry.

I happily conceded to Stile86’s view on that one just a bit further down tongue

Originally Posted by HWW
I actually liked the pre-Byrne run better. Most or all of it was written by Steve Englehart, who was one of my formative comics writers (he wrote The Avengers, The Defenders, and Captain America when I was just discovering comics). I remember a convoluted-but-still-easy-to-follow time travel story in the 20s, and Hawkeye finally getting a chance to grow as leader.The series seemed like a logical outrgrowth/evolution for many long-time Avengers, including Hank Pym and Wonder Man.


I don’t really have enough of the early issue to give a balanced view on that one. I might have read some of the mini that got them started (if it was a mini). I did read one of the time travel/ Western ones. My only memory was of Hawkeye blaming Mockingbird for something, that seemed very unfair.

Originally Posted by HWW
I agree about the art, though. Don Perlin, right? A stalwart artist but hardly inspiring.


Considering the artists I’ve reassessed over the years, I could well love his stuff now. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
Once Byrne arrived, he destroyed the Vision and Wanda's relationship and family and pretty much destroyed Vision as a character, setting their character development back by more than a decade.


I’ve really dropped in on the Avengers in phases and generally big artist ones. So, Perez and Byrne. As I found in Fickles’ rereads, there’s a lot of love for all the eras, and characters, in between.
So while I enjoyed the deconstruction of the Vision and Byrne making the West Coast team more effective looking that the East one, it’s not an opinion that saw all of the events leading up to those changes. All I saw was a comment that the Vision had tried to take over the world and this was a way of ensuring that it didn’t happen again.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959934 09/23/18 06:02 PM
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quote=thoth]I happily conceded to Stile86’s view on that one just a bit further down tongue[/quote]

I saw that; I just felt Myg's actions were worth exploring more since we know so little about him. Sorry if I gave the impression I was ignoring your comment.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959938 09/24/18 02:05 AM
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Not at all. I was just teasing. I'll put an extra tongue on it in future. smile


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #959972 09/24/18 08:51 AM
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Then I'll think you're really pissed. wink smile


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960005 09/24/18 12:30 PM
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I didn't want our descendants reading the Legion World Omniarchives and thinking "By Mordru's Beard, thoth lad just didn't get Myg at all did he? What a numpty." Especially as, in that time, NBoot Myg will be starring in numerous immersive holos every day.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960169 09/26/18 03:12 AM
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LSH Annual 1985 "Who Shot Laurel Kent?" or "Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold" by Paul Levitz, art by Keith Giffen & Karl Kessel, colors by Carl Gafford, letters by John Costanza

[Linked Image]

Five Legionnaires - Brainy, Gim, Vi, Cham and new kid Pol - remain at HQ and they're bored, playing cards, watching "The Colonizers". The others have been called to watch over SP prisoner transfers on Takron-Galtos. When Brainy asks for a case to work on, Pol proposes the shooting of Laurel Kent.

Gim and Pol go to question Laurel and annoy her; she leaves to go shopping and they tail her, disguised. They see someone else tailing her, who turns out to be Dvron, still on the case. Dvron tells them that he couldn't find a trace of a kryptonite weapon anwhere "this side of Thanagar", so Gim and Pol leave for Thanagar, joined by Cham. The curator of the Science Police Museum tells them about the theft of a weapon ,which could fire kryptonite bullets, during which two Hawkmen were murdered and another was left alive.

Meanwhile, Violet is following a hunch, investigating the murder of the private eye descendant of Batman on Winath. She examines his office, and is surprised by two SP officers. Once they see she's a Legionnaire, they leave. Then the P.I.'s desk controller explodes; Vi survives by shrinking.

The group returns to Legion HQ, along with Dvron and Laurel. Brainy holds court, announces that the next murder attempt will take place in a few minutes outside their building and assures everyone that he has the situation under control. The tour bus of Oli Queen explodes, but everyone has been protected by Brainy's forcefield.

Brainy has identified two other potential victims; the Legionnaires go to the apartment of Don & Dawn Allen. The lights go out and a giant form appears, takes down the two SP guards and goes for the Allens. Violet grabs the twins and flies them out of danger. The attacking form is a robot; Cham turns into a sheet of metal and hides on its form but is dislodged as the robot flies skywards.

The team tracks the robot to a North Pole cold sleep facility. Brainy unravels the mystery, explains that all the attacked people were descendants of the Justice League. The killer was an enemy of the JLA who chose cryogenic preservation; he got thawed out to age a few days during certain lunar phases to avoid side effects of frozen sleep. It was during these periods that the attacks occurred. The robot suddenly attacks the Legionnaires and Pol magnetically pulls it to pieces. The Legionnaires reflect on hating an enemy for a thousand years.

Comments: This was the first time I fully read this story. Something else else always put me off, whether a lack of interest in Laurel Kent, the artwork or the somewhat convoluted tale. There are a few good typical Brainy moments and Vi shows herself to be quite the powerhouse (lifting two Allens at once?) but generally, the mystery falls flat.

The solution is pulled out of a hat. There's no clue that it was a robot, or that the attacks coincided with particular phases of the moon. If this guy has been going after JLA descendants, did he kill Laurel's father? What about that private eye Wayne descendant - did he become a detective because his family was bumped off, but he just never solved the case?

Laurel Kent is oddly disinterested in the attempt on her own life. It doesn't make sense - for now. It just seems out of place; the attitude could have been rationalized by the Legionnaires - "she's bothered, but doesn't want to face it, so she goes shopping" sort of thing.

It's Pol's first big case - his idea and, although he bumbles through the detection, he gets the bad robot in the end and possibly saves his teammates. Nevertheless, he doesn't even make it to the cover and the ending in which he is congratulated by Gim is tepid. Rather like Pol himself. Perhaps that was the point.

Good bits: we got to see more of the 30th century - Montauk, Greater Quebec, Thanagar, a bit of Winath, Pol's disguise as a Purple Eyestalk Guy, a reference to cryogenics and its problems.

The different inkers produce very different effects for each chapter. Was that crosshatch thing in the Colon ink something he used often? I found my attention was distracted by the art, especially when it was more abstract. The whole thing had a sort of weird dream vibe. Maybe it was just Magnetic Kid's dream.

On the robot's chest, JLA symbols are crossed out for those it has killed. There are three, but wasn't it only the Batman and Hawkman descendents killed? Who's the third? The symbols aren't clear.

(When I type these double titles ("Who Shot Laurel Kent" or "Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold"), I hear the voice of the Rocky and Bullwinkle narrator, William Conrad. Makes me smile.)


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960195 09/26/18 12:41 PM
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LSH Baxter Annual # 1

The good news is that this annual isn’t as bad as I remembered. The bad news is that it can’t make up its mind whether to be a murder mystery or a humor piece.

However, there is a lot to love: the involvement of JLA descendants, the use of the staple sci fi plot of cryogenic sleep, and the unorthodox manner of kicking off this annual series not with a major event or a wedding, but with a “small” story involving just five Legionnaires. These aspects more or less balance out the significant weaknesses FC pointed out.

This story is also one of the Legion’s last great nods to the Silver Age since it relies on the assumption that Superman, Batman, and other JLA members would eventually marry and have offspring. After Crisis, DC thought it more appealing to have our heroes live utterly in the moment without nods or hints to some positive future for them (unlike, say, utterly grim future of Kingdom Come). As such, this story represents the last of a dying breed of comics that could be fun because of the expectation that the future (the JLA’s and the Legion’s) would get better.

Nowhere is this expectation more apparent than in the intro, when our heroes undertake the case simply because they are bored. In my childhood and teen years, when I fancied myself a member of a present-day Legion, I imagined us taking on cases such as the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot because . . . well, just because.

It’s mildly annoying that the Legion regards the attempted murder of one of its own cadets as a problem beneath its notice until they have nothing better to do. However, such high-minded arrogance is consistent with people who barge into buildings and melt walls without concern for property damage.

We also learn that Laurel is about to leave the academy since she failed to achieve Legion membership. The Legion treats its cadets only as a means to an end (e.g., developing future Legionnaires)—no wonder she wants to keep Gim and Pol at a distance. Does the Legion Academy even have a career counseling service for those who don’t make it to the Big Team?

So, I imagine this story was envisioned as a light-hearted romp to break the tension of other recent stories. It would work as a romp except that Levitz and/or Giffen’s attempts at humor come across as forced and silly. The extreme close-up of Brainy’s mouth on Page 3 sets a surreal tone, and when Gim tries to play the hardboiled cop with Laurel (p. 5), it made me question why these guys would be allowed to solve a crossword puzzle, let alone a shooting.

However, Annual 1 entertains on a number of levels. I started to get into it (finally) with the chapter set on Thanager, when Cham takes the center stage. Whatever his past relationship with Gym’ll lookalike Kw’ss has been, it’s clear he and Cham don’t much like each other and are being overly polite. Kw’ss gives the team information, including the trope of a narrating a recently unsolved case that ties into the one investigated by the Legionnaires. Then Cham departs, leaving the fuming Kw’ss and his fellow Legionnaires in the dark about what he’s deduced.

The Vi chapter is also well done—a solo spotlight that highlights the effectiveness of her shrinking power as well as her abrasive attitude. It's fitting that she works alone because I imagine most other Legionnaires don't want to be around her these days. smile On the plus side, it's good see the once shy Vi exude confidence and competence.

In Chapter 5, everyone gathers at Legion HQ, where Brainiac 5 teases and taunts over what he’s figured out. While the other Legionnaires frantically worry about saving lives, Querl sits in front of the monitor board and drinks his kono juice, dolling out information in dribs and drabs as another attempted murder happens right before his colleagues’ disbelieving eyes. But Querl has taken precautions, you see.

Then we get a scene with the final would-be victims. Even though I read this story when it came out, I had completely forgotten about the inclusion of Dawn and Don Allen, The Flash’s descendants—and I was just as surprised to see them as I must have been back then. It’s so obvious, it made me slap myself in the head (never a pleasant thing to do). At the time, I was probably disappointed that the Allens had so little to do in the story, but now I see the logic of simply using them as minor characters. I do question why an obviously grown up brother and sister would be sharing an apartment, but never mind.

The scene introduces us to an archaic robot villain who leads the Legionnaires back to his master, where we have the explanation, the big climax, and Pol saves the day. All fairly well done, but there should have been some hints that a robot was involved and that the killings occurred during Earth’s full moon, as Cramey noted. These are the sort of “clues” writers make up on the spot when they realize there is a plot hole in their story.

Another source of disappointment for me back then was that we don’t learn the identity of the robot’s creator. We are only told he was a villain who fought the JLA circa 1986 (one year after this story was produced). In doing a bit of research, though, I think the villain was meant to be Professor Ivo, a long-time JLA enemy who lived long, feared death and created another robot enemy, Amazo. Ironically, Ivo would return in 1986 to attack JLDetroit (and kill Vibe in the process). If this was the plan all along, it was a clever bit of foreshadowing.

Baxter Annual # 1 will never make it into my top ten Legion stories—the hideous artwork and cramped panels ensure that. Yet I found myself enjoying it more than I thought I would and more than I certainly did the first time.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960419 09/29/18 01:14 PM
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Legion Annual #1

The Giffen Baxter version has Laurel form a question mark on the cover. Not such an obvious question mar, that they didn’t need to put an actual question mark round her. On the later Lightle Newstand version we have Legionnaires emerging form a shadow… a shadow from the past?

Five Legionnaires are left on monitor board duty. In a precursor to the v4 group sitting around too much on Talos, Brainy asks them to select a mission to keep them occupied. In the scene Vi calls Cham a Durlan snake, which he can do, Gim likes his soaps and Cham gets in a barb about Pol being captured by Regulus. That ties in with the Baxter issue on the stands, but won’t do much for Magnetic Kid’s confidence. Welcome to the big boys Pol! They do let him pick the mission and it’s to find out who shot Laurel Kent. Picking a mission out of boredom isn’t exactly the greatest motivation but…

Gim and Pol visit Laurel as she’s preparing to leave the Academy. The push a little hard and are only told that Laurel feels that she has no enemies. We’re reminded with some flashback footage that she was shot by a Krytponite bullet, so it was a targeted attack. She makes a reference to her mom, and you wonder about Laurel’s Kent/Lane heritage.

Laurel puts on her poncho to go shopping and the guys trail her using distorters. In the crowd, there is an Atari Force crossover as a Hukka makes an appearance. Giffen loved the Hukkas over in Atari Force and it’s a recommended read.

The Legion had mentioned that Officer Dvron had been on the case. They don’t bother to check in with him to see if he had any clues. A shame as Dvron is also tailing Laurel and all parties converge when Dvron mistakenly thinks another attempt on Laurel’s life is about to take place. Dvron has not come across as the smartest Sci-Pol officer. In earlier issues Chuck even had to remind him to think about motives for crimes. This story continues that characterisation.

Laurel seems very unconcerned about the attempt on her life. She was in great pain, and bleeding buckets of blood. She knows it was deliberate, but wants to move on since another attack hadn’t been made.

The Legion seriously consider Laurel’s point of view too. Then they think to trace a weapon that can fire a Kryptonite bullet. We have to move into comic science here and go with the writer that Kryptonite bullets can’t be fired out of normal guns. Perhaps a better approach in a world of blasters and lasers is to wonder who sells antique weapons that fire bullets at all. Dvron has at least gone this far, but tells them that the nearest link he had was Thanagar.

Ah! Archaic weaponry does make its way into the plot. The weapon was stolen from a Scinece police museum on Thanagar. Footage shows us that the culprit was a giant robot, and that two Hawk-guards were killed too. A lot is made of Chams’ detective abilities here with an unknown case of the Imperial Diadem being a Chameleon Case File. We’re not really given an insight into why Cham connects the weapon with a raid on the museum or how he knew about it. Likewise, the focus on the guard that wasn’t killed is put in for Plot reasons, and to make Cham Sherlock Daggle. He even uses “elementary.”
Elsewhere, Vi slips into Marlowe mode as she investigates a Legion connected murder on Winath. This goes all the way back to the start of the Baxter run, when a PI Timber Wolf hired to trace Ayla was killed there. The information was worthless , as just as it was transmitted back Ayla was captured by the LSV and made her way back to the Legion anyway. SO the PI died for very little. Since Vi knows about the death, presumably Brin does too. Yet, he never bothered himself to investigate. Nice going Brin. Also, since Vi knows about this, the whole Legion, including Ayla, must know that stalker Londo sent someone to track her. Nice going Brin.

Vi ingratiates herself to her future love by calling her homeworld a “dump” and it’s residents “dirt kickers.” Nice going Vi.

The little robot assistant seen with the PI turns out to have been booby trapped by the killer. It’s activated by access to the guy’s databanks. There’s a nice page of the explosion and Vi shrinking through it. Shame. I liked the little robot. Vi doesn’t seem to have learned anything here.

The teams return to Legion HQ, just in time for Brainy to have finished practicing his Poirot routine. Brainy has determined where and when the next attack would occur. Its target is the tourist bus, run by Olli-3 Queen that goes around the Legion HQ. Brainy saves it by connecting his force field belt to a device that then projects fields from the HQ. While I recall the old rocketship being protected by forcefields, I’m not sure this is a gimmick used too often, if at all.

Brainy tells us that all the attacks, regardless of where they were committed in the galaxy, occurred during Earth’s full moon. 12th level intelligence working through all the parameters, or a plot fudge? Also that he had made a connection between Laurel and the tour guide.

Brainy does concede that there could have been other targets, but that he was right. I was going to wonder who the other targets could have been, but we’re told that later smile

There’s a lovely page of the Legion team flying off into the evening sky. Laurel tells Dvron that she used to dream about being a Legionnaire, but that she wasn’t cut out for it. It’s nice that she has such dreams here, and possible plans to join the SP. These would be replaced by other things in the not too distant future.

As the mission team flies off to Quebec, I’m wondering who’s left at the HQ on monitor duty?! They may be super-smug about solving this, but they’ll get home to find Ben Pares has nicked the silver from the trophy room and the Khunds invading the UP.

Brainy and co are in Quebec to look in on the other targets. Metropolis isn’t that far away, so that was an interesting deduction form Brainy on who would be next. Vi and Cham do some fun cop bickering as they prevent the giant robot attacking Don and Dawn Allen. The Allen’s are taken by surprise by the whole thing. That and Vi’s confidence during the scene is a far cry from the days of Adventure #373. It would have been nice to see them have more of a role, as the Allen’s had a big part in that Adventure issue.

Cham tracks the robot by pretending to be a bit of metal on its shell. I prefer Cham to imitate lifeforms, and not whatever the plot happens to need. I guess the Metal Mats of Miracloplot are just waiting to be found by everyone else.

Although he’s blasted off while still well within the city, the frost on the robot and its northern trajectory lead the Legion to a single facility. Who knew it was the only place north of the city and in the polar regions.

Presumably Brainy has also told him of the other clues. The team reach a polar station, containing cryo-chambers, where they finally defeat the robot. Vi is blasted rather badly, and the robot holds off Colossal Boy. But that’s just so Magnetic Kid can get in his first result as a Legionnaire and pull the thing apart. Fortunately, all older technology, such as Cryo-chambers are immune form the effects of large magnetic fields…um…

The robot takes time after each kill to cross off stickers on its shell. The one for Green Lantern is crossed off. We’ve had Batman and Hawkman deaths and Flash, Superman and Green Arrow attacks. Who was the Lantern?

The epilogue doesn’t tell us the villain. But he’s a guy who was denied longevity, hates the JLA and uses robots pinning him down nicely as Professor Ivo. It’s a shame the robot he used wasn’t more like Amazo really.

Speaking of which, Amazo is fighting the JLA in this very month. But in this annual, Brainy tell the others of a battle in 1986. There is an Ivo story ahead for the JLA. Quite an important one in their history. It didn’t link back into this story however.

It’s supposed to be a fun story with Levitz channelling various detective styles while Giffen gets to try out a variety of his own art styles. Additionally, it links a number of subplots together, some of which have been around for quite some time. I liked the use of the villain reaching out with a hatred borne from centuries old conflicts, but one that can only be exacted for a short period when they take him out of the cryo-chamber. I seem to recall a Doctor Who episode pinching this plot a bit.

The clues weren’t clear enough for the reader to have deduced things along with/ before our cast which goes against some of the styles being imitated. The seeming indifference of the cast to have investigated the attack on Laurel before is a bit baffling. You’d think Chuck and Lu would have gone straight to Cham to get this sorted out ages ago.

I enjoyed a lot of the art, as we get to see glimpses of some of the things that made his earlier run so special. The nods to other influences are nice too, and there’s enough consistency to keep the chapters coherent. Overall, it’s an perfectly decent read with the reveal being enough to cover a number of the earlier cracks. Of course, I was more into the JLA so it rather fails as a mystery as mentioned above.

It’s also a reminder of just how many links to the past the Legion has developed over the years. Bear in mind that other editorial offices don’t like having their future’s mapped out and you can see the basis for some conflicts further on down the road.

Eventually, Laurel, Don & Dawn and Don would be removed and Ollie wasn’t seen again after a while too. He got off lightly. ( Mental note: Put in in a SW6 chamber or something for a Lost Legion tale smile )
The Academy students are also moving on with their lives. Shadow Kid left to go sol on Talok. Jed moved on with the suggestion of the Subs (which had already disbanded) and Laurel is linked with the SP here.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960421 09/29/18 02:04 PM
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Comments

Originally Posted by Cramer
The solution is pulled out of a hat. There's no clue that it was a robot, or that the attacks coincided with particular phases of the moon. If this guy has been going after JLA descendants, did he kill Laurel's father? What about that private eye Wayne descendant - did he become a detective because his family was bumped off, but he just never solved the case?

I think Levitz always knew that there was a threat to JLA descendants early on. Before the Hawk museum footage, we didn’t learn that it was a robot. The Winathian police are made out to be particularly dim, presumably to cover them not noticing a giant robot on planet on the day Ayla was kidnapped.
That’s a really good motivation for this Wayne. All the dead ancestors, perpetually giving rise to grim crime fighters and detectives. smile

Originally Posted by Cramer
Laurel Kent is oddly disinterested in the attempt on her own life. It doesn't make sense - for now. It just seems out of place; the attitude could have been rationalized by the Legionnaires - "she's bothered, but doesn't want to face it, so she goes shopping" sort of thing.

I thought most of the cast were oddly uninterested at the start.

Originally Posted by Cramer
It's Pol's first big case - his idea and, although he bumbles through the detection, he gets the bad robot in the end and possibly saves his teammates. Nevertheless, he doesn't even make it to the cover and the ending in which he is congratulated by Gim is tepid. Rather like Pol himself. Perhaps that was the point.

“Gut instincts and dumb luck” is how Gim characterises him. I think he ignored Ayla to follow one of those gut instincts later on, so this may be how Levitz sees him.

Originally Posted by Cramer
On the robot's chest, JLA symbols are crossed out for those it has killed. There are three, but wasn't it only the Batman and Hawkman descendants killed? Who's the third? The symbols aren't clear.


I see a Bats and Lantern crossed out with an unclear third one. I guess it’s supposed to be a black Hawk’s head on a red background.

Originally Posted by HWW
The good news is that this annual isn’t as bad as I remembered. The bad news is that it can’t make up its mind whether to be a murder mystery or a humor piece.

It most definitely needed to up its game on the clues and central plot to be a good murder mystery form which the humour would have provided a natural backdrop.

Originally Posted by HWW
However, there is a lot to love: the involvement of JLA descendants, the use of the staple sci fi plot of cryogenic sleep, and the unorthodox manner of kicking off this annual series not with a major event or a wedding, but with a “small” story involving just five Legionnaires. These aspects more or less balance out the significant weaknesses FC pointed out.

For me, it was Laurel’s dreams and moving on; the Vi/Cham banter; the JLA villain and the cryogenics to get to the same conclusion. The small cast and scale helped too now you mention it.

This story is also one of the Legion’s last great nods to the Silver Age since it relies on the assumption that Superman, Batman, and other JLA members would eventually marry and have offspring. After Crisis, DC thought it more appealing to have our heroes live utterly in the moment without nods or hints to some positive future for them (unlike, say, utterly grim future of Kingdom Come).


Originally Posted by HWW
As such, this story represents the last of a dying breed of comics that could be fun because of the expectation that the future (the JLA’s and the Legion’s) would get better.

“But how does this tie in with Hawkworld?” would come the post crisis cries! smile

Originally Posted by HWW
Nowhere is this expectation more apparent than in the intro, when our heroes undertake the case simply because they are bored. In my childhood and teen years, when I fancied myself a member of a present-day Legion, I imagined us taking on cases such as the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot because . . . well, just because.


Oddly enough, the locals on Loch Ness have been oddly reluctant to provide further proof of the monster since around that time. COINCIDENCE?! I think not. smile Did you have a Legion Code name in those days HWW?! That would be great. Presumably it wasn’t “He Who Wanders, But Only As Far As The Front Gate Or He’s Grounded”? smile

Originally Posted by HWW
It’s mildly annoying that the Legion regards the attempted murder of one of its own cadets as a problem beneath its notice until they have nothing better to do. However, such high-minded arrogance is consistent with people who barge into buildings and melt walls without concern for property damage.


nod

Originally Posted by HWW
We also learn that Laurel is about to leave the academy since she failed to achieve Legion membership. The Legion treats its cadets only as a means to an end (e.g., developing future Legionnaires)—no wonder she wants to keep Gim and Pol at a distance. Does the Legion Academy even have a career counseling service for those who don’t make it to the Big Team?


There’s much later hints that the Academy trains for other career paths. Actually, #304 might have made some mention of that, in a don’t put your eggs in one basket speech.

Originally Posted by HWW
…and when Gim tries to play the hardboiled cop with Laurel (p. 5), it made me question why these guys would be allowed to solve a crossword puzzle, let alone a shooting.


Each scene is a mix of detective styles and a number of them, like the Gim one, don’t really match the Legion or the characters.

Originally Posted by HWW
The Vi chapter is also well done—a solo spotlight that highlights the effectiveness of her shrinking power as well as her abrasive attitude. It's fitting that she works alone because I imagine most other Legionnaires don't want to be around her these days. smile On the plus side, it's good see the once shy Vi exude confidence and competence.


It was a very good story for Vi.

Originally Posted by HWW
I do question why an obviously grown up brother and sister would be sharing an apartment, but never mind.


Exorbitant property prices anywhere near the Flash Museum…which is really close by…in…um… Central City…um…

Originally Posted by HWW
All fairly well done, but there should have been some hints that a robot was involved and that the killings occurred during Earth’s full moon, as Cramey noted. These are the sort of “clues” writers make up on the spot when they realize there is a plot hole in their story.


The links are there and the story flows, but some of them are created out of nothing. I didn’t read the “Earth’s full moon” at first and was remembering Laurel being shot in broad daylight, and Ayla being attacked in daylight (around the time of the Bat-Descendant’s death)

Note: Despite the Bat-comics sudden descent into Bat-Nudity, his descendant is covered up. Even on Winath!

Originally Posted by HWW
In doing a bit of research, though, I think the villain was meant to be Professor Ivo, a long-time JLA enemy who lived long, feared death and created another robot enemy, Amazo.

I was familiar enough with Ivo by the time I read this, that it was a lovely surprise rather than a head scratcher.

Originally Posted by HWW
Ironically, Ivo would return in 1986 to attack JLDetroit (and kill Vibe in the process). If this was the plan all along, it was a clever bit of foreshadowing.


Behind the scenes, Andy Helfer was only a couple of months away form taking over as editor of the JLA. Helfer had plans for the title that would result in the departure of Conway as writer. The replacement writer would be (Mayavale creator) JM DeMatteis and one Keith Giffen.

Also, the end of Crisis was supposed to essentially be the History of the DC Universe. Issue two of that, released in late 1986, would foreshadow the end of the JLA through Ivo’s actions. I wonder what the lead time on that book was.

Finally, the Summer 1985 preview issue of Amazing Stories already talked about big changes in the League with the upcoming arrival of Helfer. No specific mention of Ivo, but one of (Vixen, Gypsy, Steel and Vibe) would no longer be on the team (in the end, they killed two and removed the other two.)


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
thoth lad #960436 09/29/18 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad

I think Levitz always knew that there was a threat to JLA descendants early on. Before the Hawk museum footage, we didn’t learn that it was a robot. The Winathian police are made out to be particularly dim, presumably to cover them not noticing a giant robot on planet on the day Ayla was kidnapped.


Yeah, it now makes sense why the PI was revealed long ago to be a descendant of Batman. It seemed like a non sequitur at the time, but was really an example of Levitz's long-range plotting.

The Winathian landladies don't come off looking good, either. I choose to interpret this, in part, as Vi's cynical impression of the people she encounters. This is where Giffen's cartoony style proves effective, as it mirrors things and people as seen through Vi's eyes.

What's interesting to me is that neither the landladies nor the cops recognized her as a Legionnaire. Granted, she had changed recently; perhaps people out in the "sticks" don't keep up with the latest Legion news.

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That’s a really good motivation for this Wayne. All the dead ancestors, perpetually giving rise to grim crime fighters and detectives. smile


Poor Waynes. Cursed for all eternity to losing their parents through violent ends. shake

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Oddly enough, the locals on Loch Ness have been oddly reluctant to provide further proof of the monster since around that time. COINCIDENCE?! I think not. smile Did you have a Legion Code name in those days HWW?! That would be great. Presumably it wasn’t “He Who Wanders, But Only As Far As The Front Gate Or He’s Grounded”? smile


Maybe my secret power is to make dreams become reality in faraway lands?!?! I'm . . . Dream Transference Lad!

I imagined myself to be Lightning Lad. smile Instead of creating my own Legionnaires, I "recast" childhood friends in Legion identities. I would have been Mon-El, but I had an older friend who was better suited to the role than I was. (Ironically, his favorite character was Timber Wolf, but it was my fantasy--so there!)

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Each scene is a mix of detective styles and a number of them, like the Gim one, don’t really match the Legion or the characters.


That makes sense. As a detective story pastiche/parody, the story falls flatter than a deceased Ronn-Karr.

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The links are there and the story flows, but some of them are created out of nothing. I didn’t read the “Earth’s full moon” at first and was remembering Laurel being shot in broad daylight, and Ayla being attacked in daylight (around the time of the Bat-Descendant’s death)


At first, I wondered why it mattered that the earth was in full moon since the PI's murder occurred on Winath. I think the intent was that the killer had to be awakened from cryogenic stasis during earth's full moon in order to give the robot its orders. If that's the case it doesn't matter when Laurel was shot or where the PI was killed.

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Note: Despite the Bat-comics sudden descent into Bat-Nudity, his descendant is covered up. Even on Winath!


I'm mercifully ignorant of this latest comics controversy. shake

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Behind the scenes, Andy Helfer was only a couple of months away form taking over as editor of the JLA. Helfer had plans for the title that would result in the departure of Conway as writer. The replacement writer would be (Mayavale creator) JM DeMatteis and one Keith Giffen.

Also, the end of Crisis was supposed to essentially be the History of the DC Universe. Issue two of that, released in late 1986, would foreshadow the end of the JLA through Ivo’s actions. I wonder what the lead time on that book was.

Finally, the Summer 1985 preview issue of Amazing Stories already talked about big changes in the League with the upcoming arrival of Helfer. No specific mention of Ivo, but one of (Vixen, Gypsy, Steel and Vibe) would no longer be on the team (in the end, they killed two and removed the other two.)


Thanks for the background info.

Ivo was such a minor villain from the JLA's past in 1985 that I wouldn't have connected him with this story. I don't remember the Amazo story you mentioned. Also, super-hero comics were not really good training ground for reading between the lines. Pretty much everything had to be spelled out. That's one reason why I found the ending of the Annual so frustrating. In hindsight, I admire the intention to let readers figure it out.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960569 10/02/18 03:13 AM
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LSH #16 Baptism by Paul Levitz, art by Steve Lightle & Bob Smith, colors by Carl Gafford, letters by John Costanza

[Linked Image]

At the Time Institute, Brainy weeps over replays of Kara's death and says he built the time bubble so he could be with her.

On Titan, a number of Legionnaires assemble for Graym Ranzz's baptism. Violet casts a dirty look at Yera but everyone is in good spirits.

The new Legionnaires are stuck on Monitor duty. Sensor Girl anticipates an explosion; when the news comes into the HQ, they leave Brek behind and head for the Techno-Park site of the event. Pol mistakenly lets air into the blaze, then flies into for rescue, thinking of his mother's death in a fireball bombing. He tries to lift debris off a person, but his magnetism is weakened by the heat. As he fails to manually lift the wreckage, he and the trapped man are lifted aloft by Tellus's telekinesis. Sensor Girl and Quislet explore the epicenter of the blast and conclude it was deliberate.

At the Time Institute, Brainy is morose; Rond tries to reason with him and Dr. Chaseer offers words of comfort.

Jan checks in with Brek, who assures him that everything is under control. The baptism ceremony begins.

At the Techno-Park, Dvron tells the Legionnaires that there were five separate devices and they prevented it from being an even worse disaster. The Legionnaires decide to stay on the site; Sensor Girl is certain that no one has noticed them. The others question her confidence and want to know more about her. She then cries that someone is coming in the dark and she lights them up. The bombers are all defeated by the Legionnaires, but an SP cruiser arrives overhead and gasses the Legionnaires, except for Quislet.

Alone in the night, Brainy mulls over his options, leaving for Colu, suicide or trying to change history but decides to do nothing and calls himself a coward.

At the baptism party, Jan worries as Brek reassures him once again and Shvaughn encourages him to relax.

The Legionnaires at the Techno-Park revive and Quislet tells them that the SPs took the bombers, but that he had popped into their ship before it left - which meant that the ship was now falling apart. Pol brings it to a safe landing and a fight ensues between Legionnaires and SPs. Once the SPs are beaten, Tellus reads their minds to discover that they are or believe they are SP officers and that they don't know what they just did.

Late into the night, as Brainy leaves the Time Institute, he observes a light in Dr. Chaseer's lab; she's asleep at an experiment. He wakes her and suggests she get some sleep, since tomorrow will come whether or not they're ready to face it.

Comments:The title "Baptism" covers the first accomplished mission of the new members as well as Graym's ceremony. Graym's event goes off without a hitch - an unusual event in the life of superheroes - and the new Legionnaires fumble a bit, but ultimately succeed in their first mission without a Legion elder.

Jan is rightly nervous to have left them alone and one questions why he didn't leave a more senior member behind with the newbies. (I can't help but thing that Nura wouldn't have left them on their own.) Brek usurps the leadership to some degree; when communicating with Jan, he covers up what's happening with the rest of the team rather than report accurately to the leader. This desperate desire to prove himself and his new teammates could have led to disaster, if support had been needed. The new kids fumble a bit, but ultimately come together as a team and succeed. The big question is: who decided that Brek would be left behind on Monitor Duty? Did Sensor Girl take charge, or did they pull out the Planetary Chance Machine?

There's a bit of sniping about Quislet, somewhat out of place in a group that celebrates the diversity and cooperation of all beings in the United Planets, but shows that some creatures are even strange to Legionnaires. On both this mission and the Regulus capture, Quislet wasn't knocked out as the others were - a pretty useful attribute for a superhero.

The bombing of the Techno-Park is the opening chapter to a bigger mystery. We don't know why the Park was bombed, if specific technology was targeted and we don't know who was behind it. It looks like the SP Officers have been mind-controlled, which points to Universo - but it could also be any number of villains, known and unknown, responsible.

Brainy is on the verge of a nervous breakdown over Kara's death. Crazy Brainy is never a good thing, but one wonders if he's cooking up a Crazy Kara Rescue scheme, despite ultimately deciding to do nothing. The appearance of Dr. Chaseer suggests a possible new romance. There's something special about round numbers, so this 1000th year anniversary of Kara's death affects him more than the previous five, six, however long he'd known her. Of course, the story is dictated by the events of Crisis, but there could have been a mention that he goes through a slump every year on this anniversary. Perhaps he thought all along that he could save her. I liked the reference to problems caused by trying to mess with history.

Graym's baptism was primarily a platform to see the Legionnaires interact off-duty. Most notable is Vi's glare at Yera, as Gim avoids the scene looking sideways. It doesn't say much for Gim that he won't stand up for his wife, or that he hasn't tried to clear the air with Violet. Perhaps he's tried and it hasn't worked.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960570 10/02/18 05:07 AM
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I always thought Gim handled the whole thing with Vi horribly and I feel like if that storyline had happened these days it would have caused more of a ruckus within the team. It's kinda sad and says something about Vi's lack of close friends within the team that after years of being infatuated with Vi, Gim immediately married the woman who was so closely associated with the worst trauma of her life and not a single Legionnaire thought to tell him maybe it was a bit innapropriate for him and Yera to just act like any other normal Legion couple and to NOT expect Vi to have a problem with it.

It's really not surprising Vi turned so sour afterwards, if I were in her place I'd tell the Legion to go jump!

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960609 10/02/18 01:12 PM
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LoSH v3 16

The Lightle cover shows Kara reacting to being blasted by the Anti Monitor, with a tearful Querl on one side. Lots of covers show battles and injuries, but readers of Crisis would know just how poignant this image is.

The splash page links us immediately with the concept of time travel in the Legion. Rond Vidar and the Chronarch are in the Time Institute where they see Querl look at the death of his love, Kara. They use the Brainy-key-word “mad” and reinforce the time difference by saying that he’s mourning a thousand years too late.

Brainy knows it’s a thousand years since Kara’s death and knew that she would die young. The Chronarch tells Querl that “History cannot change” but Querl counters with his time bubble having conquered time.

Although Legion history shows Brainy at the same try out as Kara, and that the Time Bubble predated his first appearance, this story suggests that Brainy had invented the Time Bubble prior to his induction to the Legion. What’s more, the trip to get Superboy may have been a trial run, before it was used to contact the woman he loved in the past.

If that’s how far Brainy would go to meet her, then it underpins the emotions he will show in issues to come.

There’s a lost tale where Brainy becomes aware of Kara and her place in history. He learns that she supposedly had a boyfriend from the future, and he becomes that boyfriend either by accident or design.
Brainy’s comment of “and not dare interfere with death.” Followed by “man whatever gods there be have mercy on her soul---- and on mine” suggest that Levitz was building up to a plot where Brainy saved her from her death at the hands of the Anti-Monitor. Brainy is looking at the moment of her death on his screen, possibly as a set up to this.

To balance a Legion death, the rest of the team are present for Graym Ranzz’s baptism. Well, the rest of the team except the five new recruits. They are back on Earth, where they are alerted to an explosion. A blast that Sensor Girl senses before the call comes in.

Having spent so much time creating space for the new comers, it’s odd to see them bunched together and separate from the others again. Here, it seems the separation is just an excuse to give them an adventure. But it’s a bit harsh for all the established members to tell the newcomers not to come to the ceremony.

Polar Boy mocks Tellus’ figure of speech and he seems particularly brittle about not spending time with the main team he’s looked forward so much to joining over the years.

Having been so abruptly rejected in his first try out by Sun Boy, I wonder if Polar Boy would do the same to other, newer members of the group. He may idolise the Legion, but that’s might include some of their less special attitudes too. He may even feel that such an approach is part of what being in the Legion is about.

Brek doesn’t even get to join this mission team, so he’s apart from both the established team and the new arrivals. I wonder if he’ll have moments where he’ll regret disbanding the subs. Probably not.

We’re given some more hints that it’s the fireballing of his family that drives Pol. He wasn’t going to stay behind on monitor duty and he’s the first into the wreckage of the scene, thinking of his deceased mother. He finds a survivor but in his bravery it looks as though he might succumb to the heat. Fortunately, Tellus lends a hand. Tellus did the same thing for Pol in their second round try out mission. Tellus may prove to be a good, long range protector of his teammates.

As Brek may struggle to find his place, we see the first split within the new five members. Quislet rubs Sensor Girl up the wrong way. “You could grow tiresome,” she tells him.

The scene ending with Sensor Girl switches to one starting with the memories of Kara, as a mourning Brainy remembers their time together. Rond and the Chronarch are still with him, and he receives further support from a Doctor Chaseer. Could she be a new romantic interest. Levitz makes sure that her appearance doesn’t intrude on Brainy’s grief. That would have been a sure way to alienate fans to her. Brainiac leaves to spend time on his own.

Element Lad, as Legion leader, checks in on HQ and Brek tells him that it’s a quiet day on Earth. Nothing that the newcomers can’t take care of. It’s not exactly the whole truth, but shows that Brek is determined to prove himself in his new team. His “your leadership, sir” comment shows that the barbs of being left behind haven’t gone anywhere. Perhaps his first stint in the mission monitor chair is what starts him down the path to thinking he could be leader. Having just mentioned how much he idolised the Legion, he is economical with the truth at practically the first opportunity. Brek may have personal goals in his mind that override other concerns. Regardless of how long those goals may take to fulfil. He was quick to disband his Sub friends as soon as the try outs were announced.

Back at the techno park explosions, officer Dvron congratulates the Legion on preventing further destruction. But we don’t actually see them do anything that suggests they stopped further attacks. At first I thought this was to stop us seeing more of Sensor Girl’s powers. But we see that she is callable of sharing her senses with others, moving her away from who Levitz had intended her to be. Combined with her regal tone to Quislet earlier, perhaps Levitz had already been told he couldn’t use his first choice plot.

At first I thought this was so that we wouldn’t see much of Sensor Girl’s powers. But she enables others to see with infra-red vision later in the scene. This, and her regal tone to Quislet are good indicators that Levitz had been told his original plan for Sensor Girl couldn’t go ahead.

Brainy is later seen wandering the Time Institute. He wonders about going back in time to save Kara. Levitz tells us that the paradox has destroyed everyone else who ahs ever tried it, pretty much telling the reader that Supergirl’s return is off limits. He also considers suicide as well as going back to Colu. In the end, he calls himself a coward for going back inside. This is something that could have been explored further and Querl’s actions here would soon unravel.

Based on a hunch that the bomber may return to finish the job, rather than make a statement to whoever the target was and just leave, the five Legionnaires wait around the techno park. Pol asks Sensor Girl more about her powers. They’ve all been impressed by her confidence.

Fortunately, the bombers return to the scene of their crime. They blast Quislet (who can see in the dark) away. As Quislet saved the day on their try out mission, it’s only fair that Tellus and Pol get to take down a bomber each. That leaves two for Sensor Girl who confuses their senses, and knocks them out with a pretty decent combat move. I wonder where she learned that? They don’t get to find out more about who is behind the attack, before they are stunned by a SP cruiser. Only Quislet remains free.

Rather than pop into the ship, control it and defeat the bad guys, Quislet scouts, off panel, on the ship, and waits for the others to regain consciousness. They manage to do this in time for Pol to bring down the, now Quislet-malfunctioning, ship safely. I wonder if the crew would have been killed had Pol not woken up in time. I also wonder if there’s a size limit to what Quislet can control. Perhaps the ship was too big for him to take over completely?

Sensor Girl refers to Quislet as a worm in a tin-can; a reference to the original concept for him. The SP ship has science police officers on board. After the new guys defeat them soundly (on a splash page no less – Tellus is particularly keen), the crew are revealed to be genuine SP officers. Tellus determines that the officers don’t actually know what they’re doing there. It’s a mystery and one that the Legion don’t get to take any further this issue.

It’s a fairly easy introduction for the new Legionnaires. Certainly, they’re not going up against anyone as deadly as Regulus this time. There is a big enough foe in the background of this plot. It’s a shame that the Legionnaires don’t get very far in investigating it. I think there’s going to be a few low level “meh” encounters before that plot ramps up.

On returning to his quarters, Brainy wakes up Doctor Chaseer, wondering if she’s pushing herself too hard. He’s made peace with Kara’s passing and looks to the new day, even if he’s not really ready to face it.
It’s an issue with two stories. Querl Dox comes to immediate terms with the death of the girl he loved. And it’s the first real mission of the five new Legionnaires, after last issue’s false start for them. It says goodbye to Supergirl while celebrating Graym Ranzz.

There are also hints to a larger plot, as well as to some new perspectives on the early days of the Legion. The reason for, and the creation of the time bubble as mentioned above. Also the sense that the Kryptonian teens and the Legion both move along connected time periods.

Brainy couldn’t have mourned Kara prior to this as her death was just published in Crisis. But we’ll come back to time travel related matters in #18. It’s a shame that none of the other Legionnaires were there to comfort Brainy.

Another plus is that it’s Lightle on the art this issue. His softer, well lit faces express emotion better than LaRocques introductory issue was able to. That’s a plus on an issue with plenty of emotion in it.
A final point of interest is Gim avoiding Vi’s glare as she humphs past Yera. Year gets no support form her husband. Also, Tinya gives a signal to Jo that a baby may well be part of their future.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960610 10/02/18 01:17 PM
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Li’l thoth in Elsenwhen

Decades before there was a Justice League Dark, several supernatural characters considered team up as a creepy Justice League. It was in Blue Devil Annual 1. The members would have been Creeper, The Demon, Phantom Stranger, Black Orchid, Blue Devil, Man Bat and Madame Xanadu. They thought about it for a second before declaring it the stupidest idea they’d ever heard. Funny how things turn out.
DC Comics Presents #87 has an odd, and not in a good way Superboy/ Superman team up giving at least some information on this version of Superboy before the end of Crisis.

It’s the end of a certain Scarlet Speedster in Crisis #8

Firestorm is recruited by Harbinger in Firestorm #42, while the JLD go up against Infinity Inc in JLA 244. I only had this part of the story for quite a few years. The issue of Infinity inc this month follows that story, and sets us up for the appearance of a new Doctor Midnite and Hourman. Roy Thomas was certainly keen to bring in new cast members, and revitalise old concepts. But it became a very crowded feeling book. Not that Thomas didn’t bring back old characters. It’s the Monster Society of Evil who attack the All-Star Squadron in #51. There’s a mad looking Captain Marvel at the finale. Could he be controlled by the Psycho Pirate from the pages of Crisis?

The JLD also meet up with some of their previous members in the JLA Annual 3. It’s by Mishkin/Hoberg and Gustovish. The continuity of the story doesn’t mesh up with what we see in Crisis. The finale gives a new direction for Red Tornado, as promised in Crisis. But he’d appear in Firestorm and Captain Atom rather than getting his won series.

Harbinger also recruits John Stewart this month. As Crisis had Stewart with a mask, the GLC story has John go to the trouble of putting one on just to keep Harby’s sense of continuity right. Harby also punches out Black Canary. I’d have liked to have seen that mentioned in Crisis.

Conway would state that Blue Devil would turn up in the JLD, if not necessarily to accept membership. Superman took Dan to meet Zatanna at the end of Blue Devil #3. He met Ralph and Zee in #4 and Zee helps him fight Nieberos there and in #5. There’s hints of a possible relationship between the two and that Dan may end up as a super hero and JLAer. Wonder Woman guests before Zee and John Stewart help out again in #13. Stewart is back in #17 to summon Devil to the JLA satellite that leads into Crisis #8 and the examination of Red Tornado leading to the JLA annual above.

The Outsiders launch their Baxter book with a cautionary tale against The Nuclear Family. I never really took to them myself.

But it’s a better issue than the reprint of the Wolfman/Perez origin of their Titans in 59. Despite the art, it’s a story that has a lot of clunks and is filler before the Baxter Trigon story begins.

The Baxter Titans #14 has the team split up during the Crisis. There’s Blackfire and Mento to confront among the subplots. There’s a bit of Kole foreshadowing too.

Nuclear destruction is an Outsiders theme this month as the team, with Bats in it, confront Kobra in #27 who is holding the world to ransom. Davis art here and Aparo in the Baxter book. Bats and Kobra has a fight and the winner is…

Paul Kupperberg’s run on Vigilante #23 gets more complicated as another costumed...um.. vigilante… appears in the form of the Electrocutioner.

It’s Batman versus the Nightslayer against the crimson skies of Crisis in Batman #389 and Detective #556. This Moench & Mandrake/ Colan run is definitely worth a reread.

The cover of Omega Men #32 is one I saw on Who’s Who, but didn’t own for years and years. It’s a spotlight on Felicity. As I must have said, if you thought King’s take on the Omega Men was decent, the original has the same and more besides. There’s more mega Men in their second annual also out this month.

Bates and Swan continue an excellent Superman story in 413. As much as I liked Byrne’s relaunch, Bates’ Superman works so well on both a character and threat level.

So around this month I picked up - Crisis, Who’s Who, JLA, Bats/ Detective, DC Comics Presents and Tales of the Titans. So it looks like it was another month where I picked up Crisis and Who’s Who in the city, probably in a pile, while the others were off the newsstand.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
thoth lad #960730 10/04/18 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad
Although Legion history shows Brainy at the same try out as Kara, and that the Time Bubble predated his first appearance, this story suggests that Brainy had invented the Time Bubble prior to his induction to the Legion. What’s more, the trip to get Superboy may have been a trial run, before it was used to contact the woman he loved in the past.

If that’s how far Brainy would go to meet her, then it underpins the emotions he will show in issues to come.


That's a good explanation for the Time Bubble history and suggests Brainy was somewhat involved with the Legion - or possibly funded by Brande - prior to joining.

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There’s a lost tale where Brainy becomes aware of Kara and her place in history. He learns that she supposedly had a boyfriend from the future, and he becomes that boyfriend either by accident or design.
Brainy’s comment of “and not dare interfere with death.” Followed by “man whatever gods there be have mercy on her soul---- and on mine” suggest that Levitz was building up to a plot where Brainy saved her from her death at the hands of the Anti-Monitor. Brainy is looking at the moment of her death on his screen, possibly as a set up to this.


Quite possibly one of the lost tales that was actually on the books. It would have been one of the great comic book romance stories.

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To balance a Legion death, the rest of the team are present for Graym Ranzz’s baptism.


Could the Ranzz baptism date have been selected specifically for that reason? Surely everyone else must have given a thought about Kara's death, but no mention of that or of Brainy's absence at the ceremony. Perhaps he was supposed to be babysitting the new kids.

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Having spent so much time creating space for the new comers, it’s odd to see them bunched together and separate from the others again. Here, it seems the separation is just an excuse to give them an adventure. But it’s a bit harsh for all the established members to tell the newcomers not to come to the ceremony.


True, it would have made them feel truly part of the team. Imra might have wanted to invite Sensor Girl, but couldn't without it looking like favouritism.

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Polar Boy mocks Tellus’ figure of speech and he seems particularly brittle about not spending time with the main team he’s looked forward so much to joining over the years.

Having been so abruptly rejected in his first try out by Sun Boy, I wonder if Polar Boy would do the same to other, newer members of the group. He may idolise the Legion, but that’s might include some of their less special attitudes too. He may even feel that such an approach is part of what being in the Legion is about.


We could do with a full psychological analysis of Polar Boy. He's a real mix of emotions and attitudes.

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Fortunately, Tellus lends a hand. Tellus did the same thing for Pol in their second round try out mission. Tellus may prove to be a good, long range protector of his teammates


We don't know much about his home planet, but it could be much more of a communal, group player society. Or maybe Tellus is just a stand-up guy.

Quote
As Brek may struggle to find his place, we see the first split within the new five members. Quislet rubs Sensor Girl up the wrong way. “You could grow tiresome,” she tells him.


Sniping is a super-power... and possibly predicting potential reader reactions. That comment sounds much more like Projectra than Kara to me, which I see you address below! Imagine if we'd also had Comet Queen on the team. Aggravatingly tiresome.

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Element Lad, as Legion leader, checks in on HQ and Brek tells him that it’s a quiet day on Earth. Nothing that the newcomers can’t take care of. It’s not exactly the whole truth, but shows that Brek is determined to prove himself in his new team. His “your leadership, sir” comment shows that the barbs of being left behind haven’t gone anywhere. Perhaps his first stint in the mission monitor chair is what starts him down the path to thinking he could be leader. Having just mentioned how much he idolised the Legion, he is economical with the truth at practically the first opportunity. Brek may have personal goals in his mind that override other concerns. Regardless of how long those goals may take to fulfil. He was quick to disband his Sub friends as soon as the try outs were announced.


This issue paints a poor picture of Brek, but I never took to the character anyway. It is laying some interesting groundwork for future problems, though.

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Rather than pop into the ship, control it and defeat the bad guys, Quislet scouts, off panel, on the ship, and waits for the others to regain consciousness. They manage to do this in time for Pol to bring down the, now Quislet-malfunctioning, ship safely. I wonder if the crew would have been killed had Pol not woken up in time. I also wonder if there’s a size limit to what Quislet can control. Perhaps the ship was too big for him to take over completely?


Good question. Don't recall if this was addressed in future issues.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960796 10/04/18 05:55 PM
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Comments

Originally Posted by Cramer
Graym's event goes off without a hitch - an unusual event in the life of superheroes - and the new Legionnaires fumble a bit, but ultimately succeed in their first mission without a Legion elder.


Second aisle from the back… third person in… that’s Darkseid in disguise with Graym’s brother. smile

Originally Posted by Cramer
Jan is rightly nervous to have left them alone and one questions why he didn't leave a more senior member behind with the newbies. (I can't help but thing that Nura wouldn't have left them on their own.)


Yeah, it was an odd grouping done purely for plotting reasons. After the Regulus mission, the newbies could well have thought of themselves as grounded. Had a senior member been with them, they’d only have to have been knocked out of the conflict. Likely it would have been Wildfire getting his containment suit burst…again.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Brek usurps the leadership to some degree; when communicating with Jan, he covers up what's happening with the rest of the team rather than report accurately to the leader. This desperate desire to prove himself and his new teammates could have led to disaster, if support had been needed.


Agreed. Had this subplot been developed in the same way as a Silver Age story, Brek and chums would have been in trouble.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The new kids fumble a bit, but ultimately come together as a team and succeed. The big question is: who decided that Brek would be left behind on Monitor Duty? Did Sensor Girl take charge, or did they pull out the Planetary Chance Machine?


I think Brek chose to stay behind. Sensor Girl snidely wonders if he’s getting the “full picture” as if questioning him for not wanting to go into action. Pol defends Brek. It’s not the way I read it first time, but it seems that Brek took on an oversight role, probably moving in to being proxy leader. Something else else that would have got Sensor Girl’s back up, considering who she is.

Originally Posted by Cramer
There's a bit of sniping about Quislet, somewhat out of place in a group that celebrates the diversity and cooperation of all beings in the United Planets, but shows that some creatures are even strange to Legionnaires.


The attitudes of the Legionnaires has come up a few times in this volume. Whether it’s changing, maturing, becoming more realistic or showing signs of a team breakdown. The new guys seem to have brought this in with the, Polar Boy is insulting to Tellus. Sensor Girl calls Brek “too sensitive” and isn’t too keen on Quislet. Quislet thinks a lot of what goes on around it as silly.

Originally Posted by Cramer
On both this mission and the Regulus capture, Quislet wasn't knocked out as the others were - a pretty useful attribute for a superhero.


That might prove to make him a little difficult to deal with on missions. He may not be able to be blinded either, and he can see in the dark.
Originally Posted by Cramer
The bombing of the Techno-Park is the opening chapter to a bigger mystery. We don't know why the Park was bombed, if specific technology was targeted and we don't know who was behind it. It looks like the SP Officers have been mind-controlled, which points to Universo - but it could also be any number of villains, known and unknown, responsible.


Could this all have been left a little too vague to make for an effective story in this issue? A lot of spy plots have middlemen/ cut outs to fill in the role of intermediary villain just for this reason. It makes it look as though progress is being made, rather than have protagonists floundering around in a mystery.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Brainy is on the verge of a nervous breakdown over Kara's death. Crazy Brainy is never a good thing, but one wonders if he's cooking up a Crazy Kara Rescue scheme, despite ultimately deciding to do nothing.


I think we get both in this story. While that’s a good sign of Brainy’s shifting thoughts, I think it also reflects Levitz’s forced plot changes too.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The appearance of Dr. Chaseer suggests a possible new romance. There's something special about round numbers, so this 1000th year anniversary of Kara's death affects him more than the previous five, six, however long he'd known her. Of course, the story is dictated by the events of Crisis, but there could have been a mention that he goes through a slump every year on this anniversary. Perhaps he thought all along that he could save her. I liked the reference to problems caused by trying to mess with history.


Issue #18 might cover some of this ground, as it’s also a Crisis crossover issue.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Graym's baptism was primarily a platform to see the Legionnaires interact off-duty. Most notable is Vi's glare at Yera, as Gim avoids the scene looking sideways. It doesn't say much for Gim that he won't stand up for his wife, or that he hasn't tried to clear the air with Violet. Perhaps he's tried and it hasn't worked.


And

Originally Posted by Raz
I always thought Gim handled the whole thing with Vi horribly and I feel like if that storyline had happened these days it would have caused more of a ruckus within the team. It's kinda sad and says something about Vi's lack of close friends within the team that after years of being infatuated with Vi, Gim immediately married the woman who was so closely associated with the worst trauma of her life and not a single Legionnaire thought to tell him maybe it was a bit inappropriate for him and Yera to just act like any other normal Legion couple and to NOT expect Vi to have a problem with it. It's really not surprising Vi turned so sour afterwards, if I were in her place I'd tell the Legion to go jump!


Good points on Gim. Vi’s recovery subplot was quicker than I thought and there were more mentions from the others than I recalled. But the basic actions taken by Gim in particular, made me feel as though he was selfish and insensitive, even in obliviously so, despite being one of the Legion.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Could the Ranzz baptism date have been selected specifically for that reason? Surely everyone else must have given a thought about Kara's death, but no mention of that or of Brainy's absence at the ceremony. Perhaps he was supposed to be babysitting the new kids.


Yeah, I had wondered why no one else had said a kind word to Brainy. I think #18 will pick up a little of this. You might be right that the date was a tribute. Perhaps there’s a Crisis-laden feeling that something bleak was occurring and they wanted a positive event to offset it. It provides a nice balance to the story, and gets the cast out of the way, earing Levitz points.

Good point about Brainy being the guy supposed to be on duty. That completely passed me by.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Imra might have wanted to invite Sensor Girl, but couldn't without it looking like favouritism.


Sensor: Of course, I should go. It is a ceremony and you know how much I like those.
Imra: You can’t. If the other new recruits stay, you’ll have to be with them.
Sensor: I could use my illusion powers to…
Imra: But you’re not supposed to be seen with illusion powers.
Sensor: Well, what about a disguise?
Imra: And who will you be disguised as?
Sensor: What about Supergirl. Hey, I might get to like that…
Berger Lass: No! No! Paul! We’ve spoken about this! No!

Originally Posted by Cramer
We don't know much about his home planet, but it could be much more of a communal, group player society. Or maybe Tellus is just a stand-up guy.


I’ve thought of it as communal, and one with a sense of awareness of greater powers/ hierarchies. Hence their subservience to Gil Dishpan and later to the Dark Circle.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960879 10/05/18 06:48 PM
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LSH 16

The challenge of making Brainiac 5 a protagonist is that, to be true to the character, the story must be as inscrutable as he is. There can be no “a-ha” moment where he comes to realize where the path of his life has led him or where he changes because of the story. Any such change must be as subtle and secretive as Querl Dox himself is. The story leaves us guessing, trying to analyze this person who is much smarter than we will ever be yet who in many ways is still a child.

I think I can relate to Brainy (which is not the same as understanding him) better than I did in 1985. Several years ago, I fell in love with someone but didn’t realize the depth of my feelings until she was out of reach. I’ve wondered since then if I really loved her or if I loved the image of her—what I thought she could be to me. I imagine Brainy felt the same about Kara Zor-El.

Brainy, of course, got to spend much more intimate time with his beloved than I did with mine, but the feelings of devastation were real to both of us. Brainy must have known when he joined the Legion what her history would be. Yet he concocted a fantasy around her just the same. An impossible romance allows someone to commit without really committing. Except there are those damn emotions—attachment, a sense that the person is part of you, dreams you never realize you had. Brainy got much more than he bargained for, and it left him an emotional wreck.

I think it reveals a lot that he considers returning to Colu, going away, or even committing suicide. For the first time in perhaps ever he blames himself for Computo and Omega. Such bouts of self-pity are all too real, a sign that his fantasy was directed inward, toward himself. He even refers to Kara as “My Supergirl.” It’s all about him.

In the end, he re-enters the Time Institute and sees Dr. Chaseer asleep at her desk. Instead of gently waking her, he abruptly tells her “Good night.” Any hopes fans may have had of Chaseer becoming the new love of his life are dashed. Brainy isn’t receptive to new love. He wasn’t receptive to old love. He rebuilds that barrier and makes sure the attractive and inviting Chaseer knows it.

I think Brainy is emotionally still very much a child, and the tragedy of his life—if it is a tragedy—is that he doesn’t know it. For all his 12th-level intellect, he doesn’t seem to know himself very well. Caught up in Legion missions and experiments, finding his sense of value in what he invents and brings to the team, he remains totally clueless as to who Querl Dox really is. Suddenly, the insomniac fantasies that led to him building a Supergirl robot make a lot of sense. Querl wants love, but only on his terms.

I applaud this story for its emotional maturity and for not spoon-feeding readers a happy ending. Many fans (including me at the time) hoped that something would come of Dr. Chaseer, but, as I recall, we never see her again. I believe this was intentional. Brainy isn’t looking for new romance. He wants to continue as he is.

Another noteworthy aspect of “Baptism” is that it provides us with three story lines which reflect its title and with varying degrees of success. A baptism is an initiation, particularly into something difficult. Brainy’s baptism can be regarded as a failure in that he does not grow or learn from his experience. The four new Legion members experience an incomplete baptism—they resolve the mystery of the explosions at the park but stumble upon an even deeper mystery. Only Graym Ranzz’s baptism is a complete success: the initiation of a babe into the world of his parents, joined by their closest friends and colleagues. Perhaps the underlying message is that baptism cannot be undertaken willingly—that it is a gift bestowed by others. Perhaps our own efforts get in the way of receiving this gift. Perhaps Graym, in his infancy, experiences more joy in life than Brainy ever will.

That’s a rather sad thought, but it’s consistent with who Brainy is and who he has been.

Elsewhere, Jan again displays questionable leadership by taking the rest of team to Titan while the newbies remain on duty at headquarters. I’m reminded of Lu and Chuck’s wedding back in Superboy 200, when Mon-El, as leader, and Shadow Lass remained on duty while the rest of the Legion attended the ceremony. Jan doesn’t exhibit the same sense of selfless leadership Lar did.

One might argue that the newbies had yet to develop relationships with the other Legionnaires, and this is true. However, Pol, as Rokk’s brother, might have enjoyed attending. Certainly, Brek had a long-standing history with the Legion and would have relished being invited. He seems disappointed that he wasn’t.

Was Brainy left behind to shepherd the newbies? I don’t think so. Even Brainy isn’t that negligent in his duties. I think his isolation from the rest just reflects his isolation in general. He didn’t attend the baptism of Graym because it wasn’t important to him. It was much more important to wallow in the self-pity of his own creation.

LSH 16 was an enjoyable read, even though nothing is apparently resolved. Because of my own experiences, I think I appreciate the story more now than I did then. The emotional complexity of Brainy and others rings true (even Gim, Yera, and Vi’s reactions) and says a lot about how well the writer knew the characters and how they would react in certain situations. We don’t have to agree with or admire everything our heroes do. We only have to learn from their experiences, even if they themselves are incapable of learning.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960880 10/05/18 07:10 PM
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At the time, I wasn't impressed with "Baptism," as indicated by my Top 25 of August 13, 1985:

1. Dreadstar & Company # 5 -- Marvel/Epic
2. Crisis on Infinite Earths # 9 -- DC
3. Dreadstar # 20 -- Marvel/Epic
4. Justice League of America (Annual) # 3 -- DC
5. New Teen Titans # 14 -- DC
6. Star Trek (Annual) # 1 -- DC
7. Power Man & Iron Fist # 120 -- Marvel
8. All-Star Squadron # 51 -- DC
9. Zot! # 10 -- Eclipse
10. Blue Devil # 17 -- DC

11. normalman # 10 -- Renegade
12. Squadron Supreme # 3 -- Marvel
13. Fantastic Four (Annual) # 19 -- Marvel
14. Infinity, Inc. # 20 -- DC
15. Amazing Spider-Man # 270 -- Marvel
16. West Coast Avengers # 2 -- Marvel
17. Tales of the New Teen Titans # 58 -- DC
18. Avengers # 261-- Marvel
19. Legion of Super-Heroes # 16 -- DC
20. Fantastic Four # 284 -- Marvel

21. Amazing Spider-Man (Annual) # 19 -- Marvel
22. Justice League of America # 244 -- DC
23. Nexus # 15 -- First
24. Green Lantern # 194 -- DC
25. Avengers (Annual) # 14 - Marvel


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960881 10/05/18 08:40 PM
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I like your thoughts on Brainy, HWW...I much prefer your take on him than the guy we have had in recent times who is obnoxious all the time with nothing really underlying it outside of "smart people have no social skills" tongue

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #960883 10/05/18 09:37 PM
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Thanks, razsolo.


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