Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Postboot Legion! (LSH 110, L*67)

Oooh 77 yeah. 77 had a more focused narrative and storytelling than 59. Bittersweet cause it was one of the last before Damned. I like to think of it as a snapshot in time though...

This is another of the short list of the defining stories of this run. Not only was the overall White Triangle storyline one of the Legion's best ever, this issue specifically jumps out for all that you and HWW and the others commented about. I re-read this about a month or two ago at this point. What was shocking to me was how very little in our own world has changed in 25 years. And you all were discussing this in 2014, before things really started to slide.

This was first published in 94 or 95 when DC was doing their "Year One" annual concept following Zero Hour. This was by far the most memorable of all the Year One stories across the board at DC at the time.

Another note on this reread. I very vividly remember the shock and outrage in the online community when this was released due to the fate of Tinya in this issue. I happened to be in the camp that she should stay dead, not being a fan of the Tinya/Jo "romance" or caring about the past connotations of that relationship (oddly, I did care about Garth & Imra). I thought that having Laurel's death be fake would make Tinya's story death cheapened (which I think was). I thought it would have been an infinitely more interesting story had Tinya not merged into Jo with the political and emotional repercussions.

But the re-read made me smile for the exchange that happens just before poor Tinya gets fried:

Tinya: Are you all right?
Jo: Who's asking? There are three of you. (emphasis mine)
Tinya: I'm the one in the middle.

Knowing where this would end up made me really appreciate the plotting of Waid, Peyer, McCraw and crew always dropping cool little clues here and there either in the panel or in the dialogue.

I still couldn't stand the co-dependent relationship, though.

I consider this one of the single greatest Legion issues ever published. Like GL, I find the storyline's continued relevance a sobering reality check. Also like GL, I am in the camp that Tinya should have stayed dead. Her death reminded me of another surprise death of a major character early in a Legion-related series' run. I'm talking about Lyrissa Mallor of L.E.G.I.O.N. being killed by her own (artificially aged and then brainwashed) daughter, Lydea. Both incredibly powerful scenes, but unlike with the Postboot Legion, Lyrissa's death was never undone (and in a very nice bit of closure, Lydea encountered her mother's spirit in the Ancestral Cave on Talok VIII, and was forgiven.)

I'm not familiar with this story - I'll have to check it out.

I know there's the oft-quoted line about deaths in comics are never forever (look at Bucky Barnes as a prime example of that), but when the stakes are really high, as it was in this story, it drives the importance of the sacrifice being something worthwhile. After all, look at all the innocent civilians who died at the hands of the Daxamites (including Chuck Taine's parents, btw), it makes sense that the Legion should share in that sacrifice (which to be fair, they did at the time).

That being said, it was a comic book aimed at a young audience, so I shouldn't over-analyze. Of course, the flip side to that is all the nasty horrors that the protagonists of the Disney films had to endure before making it out the other side.

GL, this was the first time I made the connection with the whole "there are three of you!" bit. THAT was sharp!!! A subtle hint, and that's exactly what happened, with Tinya being half-Carggite blah blah

Like with both of you, I hold Legionnaires Annual #2 as a shining light in Legion history. It was just that good.

As for Tinya's death, I need to think about my stance. Unfortunately they didn't do that much with Tinya after her death, other than the whole co-dependency thing, which DNA tried very hard to undo. On the other hand, I read so many issues out of order - I read Tinya's return as a ghost before I read L* Annual 2, for example. And Tinya is still one of my favorite Legionnaires. I wonder what my opinion would have been, had I read the Reboot in order.

Also agree about the continued relevance of the themes in this issue re xenophobia, fear, racism, prejudice... well done in a non-preachy way.

I'm not super familiar with the story re Lyrissa Mallor, but I was aware she died in a fairly shocking and well-written fashion. Interesting isn't it? Tinya's death scene itself was also well done in a shocking manner that made sense...

One thing that I can't remember, and didn't seem to find in my re-read until the Tinya therapy issue (LSH102, which I actually liked that part of the story - it explained in detail what happened and made Tinya much more sympathetic character instead of pining for/nagging at Jo all the time - I actually enjoyed her character when operating with the E Squad) is when the reveal was of Tinya's father being a cargggite. I remember an issue where he asks for money from Winema where he triplicates, but cannot for the life of me remember when that was.

So the "There's three of you line" wasn't obvious at all at the time, but wow, did that pop out when I re-read this. Part of the reason it stood out to me was due to the nature of how they brought here back, which I didn't agree with, as mentioned earlier.


Its an interesting thing to think about for sure. I remember the long-timers (at the time) on Usenet erupted in fury at this story element. I think its obvious in retrospect with Jo's line, they were planning what they did from the jump with regards to her death, but at the time the reaction online was very visceral. I thought it was a bold choice for the tone the book was striking overall.

one could argue that Tinya's death was a major character moment for Jo - that he may never have quit the Workforce if not for her.

The Tinya's dad is a Carggite reveal was in LSH 94 and I did like LSH 102. It was one of the better stories showcasing Tinya.

Oh, it certainly was a moment for Jo. I think I like both the characters, just not together! LOL

And thanks for the LSH 94 reference - that's why I didn't catch it on my reread. I basically skipped most of the T20 stuff.

HWW, this is a great insight to Gim's character that I very much agree with. I've worked with both active duty and retired military as well for most of my career, and you're spot on that decisions, actions and reactions are very binary with little room for any grey areas. There also tends to be an absolute faith in the system that develops those processes ("person x was judged guilty, therefore it is true and no mistakes were made") . Granted he wasn't as ingrained in the SP for that long to have a lot of that driven into him, but he was the child of a UP Navy Admiral, so it stands to reason that he was raised with that kind of mindset.

That approach very much defines his character and is true to form, and I think led to his demise in some ways.

I'm getting caught up here, and am seeing that there is a stretch of issues that are summarized together, so I'll start plowing into these soon.


Items selectively snipped to comment on a couple specific things about this issue.

I found it odd with this issue, a couple years into KC editorial run, that they feature a story that a major plot point centers around a same-sex couple's relationship, but they never made the jump to represent that kind of relationship - even somewhat veiled as it was with Ayla & Vi pre-boot - in the reboot on the team. Initially, I had thought that it was a comics code thing - they didn't want to show a teenage homosexual couple for fear of some kind of reprimand. But this issue showed that they could pull it off.

At the time, a lot of readers wanted Ayla/Vi to return, and obviously the creative team took Ayla in a very different direction there, but all the main relationships were not only hetero, but I think they were pretty much the exact same relationships as pre-boot. We know the creators were planning to reveal Lyle as gay (which they kind of did), but the lack of diversity in this area was a major failing of this run, IMO.

As for Vi being elected leader, even though I loved it as she was/is my favorite character, I knew something was up because a majority wouldn't have voted for her, so we needed to buckle in for a ride.

yeah! Vi had shown some growth (L* 34 and LSH 79 come to mind!) but not enough to be easily considered leader, in my mind. She had stiff competition from Cos, Lyle, potentially Gim, Imra, Garth...

and good point re the lack of same-sex couples in the Reboot. What could have been with Lyle and Condo...

Not to drift too much, but LSH was definitely ahead of its time in this regard. DC even has a Pride book coming out in June. The Legion would have been a natural participant in the anthology were it not in limbo.

Gonna do a 2-for-1 here...


I thought that Vi pairing herself with Gim was a bit too obvious as well, as was her sitting with him at the table while he shoveled food into his face. I can't tell if she has a disapproving look there...

As to Triad, there are a couple interesting things - While eating with Gim Violet is very attentive to the fact that Triad is upset about her three personalities. Just after that is when she starts to manifest the headache, which seems to indicate the Eye & Vi's influence. It's also interesting to note that Triad splits into the three distinct bodies immediately after Zoe flirts with Gim with Vi and Triad in frame. That always seemed a little suspicious to me, as if Violet was starting to lose control of the "hearts desire" situation and slipped up control with a little jealousy there.

On to....


This, I think, naturally followed after L*39, in that Vi had started to lose control of the situation and things were really falling apart. The big question (to me) is what role did the Eye have in Gim's death? If Gim's wish was to die a hero, unless the Eye architected the entire situation with Regulus (a possibility, given that the Eye wanted to use Violet as it did, and Gim's death would be the event to make that happen), the Eye may not have actually fulfilled anything there, because everyone else's wish was fairly mundane, meaning that Vi & the Eye could do these (relatively) small things to fulfill the wishes (and based on your list, not everyone had a wish apparently). It's hard to say.


Shortened here, as I think you were spot on with these. Interesting connotation about Cham's wish. Its a good point and one I hadn't really considered. But I have more to say on Ayla/Cham/Jeckie later.
Leviathan I mentioned above - we know he wanted to die a hero, but did the Eye actually do this or just prevent any interference from it happening?
Kinetix obviously wanted the Eye/More Power. But that is in exact opposition to Vi, which makes a good conflict.
Vi I think is as simple as wanting to be seen and heard at a basic level. But then it got out of control. She gets into it a bit in the next issue, but I really think its as simple as that.

re Cham, I was just thinking, Ayla's about face could not have been his wish. because that remained even after the Eye left.

and yeah, good point re Gim... did the Eye have any hand in that? it could have happened very plausibly even without the Eye's influence, after all.

some wishes were very subtle, kike Gates wanting people to listen to his opinions

would have been funny if the Emerald Legion was also a way to grant Zoe's wish for more power

and good point re Vi not taking charge more, being a sign of Vi losing control of the situation

Yes it seems that the tell about what happened was an Eye-granted wish seems to be whether or not the wish was undone. So by that definition, what happened with Cham and Gim were not Eye-granted.

Which means of course that Ayla was ultimately NOT Reep's hearts desire (the big dummy), unless Vi specifically did not want to grant that wish to Reep. And it obviously was Gim's to die heroically, but I don't think that the Eye was capable to grant that.

PS - I should have been paying attention to your trivia thread. I happened to look at it just after I wrote the above post. I would have got it right as well!

Many of the Legionnaires didn't have their hearts' desires shown, so maybe the Eye had not gotten around to Cham yet. or maybe Ayla's heart's desire at the time was in a completely different direction, and the Eye had not figured out how to reconcile Cham's vs. Ayla's? (unnlike with the Cos-Imra and XS-Cos heart's desires, which the Eye got around by hhaving XS disguised as Imra....)

you should totally join in the trivia thread

Yes, I had a notion that it would have been things that Vi noticed, given the Triad situation, but that wouldn't explain the Rokk/Jenni thing, so it would have to be the Eye making those selections.

Cool observation


From the jump, I enjoyed Vi forcing the roll call; a very consistently neat thing about this run was that if the roll call wasn't done with the characters on the edge of an initial page, they'd do something creative like this. I also enjoyed the reactions - some Legionnaires are shocked and don't know what to think (Spark, XS), others are defiant (Cos, Gates, Kinetix) and others disappointed (Star Boy & Cham). I thought Thom's reaction to be very interesting as this iteration seemed to have respect for Vi. Also, Vi channeling Ariana Grande in responding to Live Wire. WAY ahead of her time. ("Thank you, next!")


Yeah, Zoe doesn't come off in that great a light during this issue as she's more into getting to the eye versus saving her friend.


I didn't remember people saying she was ruined because of this. To me reading this with more of an adult (and parent) mindset, it seems to me that the Eye is being extremely manipulative. This is best shown in the recap sequence, as Vi's recollection of the events in the Scavenger's Lair make it appear that she thinks the Eye allowed her to breathe again, when from what we could see at the time, it was Triad's doing. If the Eye is anything, it is a manipulative bastard. Most of what Vi did, she did on her own, but the Eye manipulates her into thinking she couldn't. Sounds like an abuser to me.

Other notes - the fact that Vi can't perceive Tinya shows there are definite limits to the artifacts' power; it can't do everything for sure.

The Eye also has to keep exerting more energy to control not just Violet but the rest of the Legion. Its no wonder that things fall apart after thatt.

That?s a good point re Vi. I think a later issue, L*50, would also show that the Eye WAS a manipulator. Sensor convinced Vi then that she had the strength inside her all along, that many of her key moments were her own doing, no influence from the Eye at all!

Ibby, I am pulling these two issues up to comment as I have some specific thoughts on this and L* 66.



As most are probably aware, I'm a big Vi fan, especially reboot Vi, and I just did not like this issue. I was a big fan of Vi's arc, but I felt like the aftermath could have been handled better. Honestly, I think I didn't like it because the editors & writers had Zoe in her zombie phase, and Vi is at her most interesting when she has the real Kinetix to interact with. I thought Vi's pushing back on Kinetix's changing her clothes was the best part of the issue. It showed that she has more spine than she herself realizes. And Kinetix never changes Vi's clothes like that ever again in the reboot, although she does that to others.

Speaking of Zoe, what's up with her always putting Vi in skimpy clothes?



Thom in this issue kind of bothered me. In the past, he seems to have had a real respect for Vi, even before the Emerald stuff, so the Nura scene here seemed to have the same dissonance as the rest of the issue.


GOD I hated this. Which I'll get into on the discussion on L66 below. The only thing as bad as this was the MM-led authors' decision to try and pair Ferro with Vi romantically. Yeah, let's pair the two most shy people together, cause its always interesting to read about two people who barely talk to each other. ugh.


Agree

And now to the other side of KC's two parter.


When I read this the first time, I was dating in my late twenties, and I had to call BS on the whole Vi 'borrowing' Chuck thing happening without ramifications. I saw plenty of girl spats in the dorms in college as well as back in High School in the 80s. A large portion of them were "you stole my man" inspired. So there's NO WAY Luornu would have just let this go. Now, almost 25 years later, I have two teenage girls. I can GUARANTEE this will never happen, unless the person in the Luornu situation has no self respect. Not saying that couples won't come back together after this kinds of thing, but I really don't think the girls would be friends at all after something like this. I mean, hell, Luornu hadn't even kissed Chuck at this point right??

OK. Breathe. I just had to get that out.



Well, except for Luornu



Yeah this was a great touch. Love that her closet is essentially a pocket universe.



When is Tinya *not* jealous? But yeah, Cham & Tenzil were cute in this scene.


The downtime episodes after an arc of a lot of activity were always some of the best parts of the PMS Legion. Did DnA ever do that?

hi GL, thanks for your thoughts! I'm too lazy to use the quote function well, so...


1) Agree, the interplay between Zoe and Vi was one of the best things about the pair. Vi is very self-aware and introspective, Zoe I feel is also introspective but tends to be more careless. Some of my fave conversations between them are when Zoe is pep-talking Vi...

2) Agree re Thom, he's always been clumsy BUT well-meaning. Such flippancy in this issue was a bit too much

3) Oh yes, Vi and Ferro would make such boring interactions...

4) Totally agree re the Vi and Lu thing. Vi thinking to herself "sorry Lu" was just... ugh. At the very least, Vi should have sat down with Lu first... instead, Lu finds out about it at the same time as everyone else, i.e. just before Vi and Chuck are going out!!

5) I always wondered, if Lu blaming Vi for the Eye, was her visceral reaction at "I can't believe Chuck is going out with Vi, what can I do to stop this... OH, THE EYE!" Because we've never seen Lu's thoughts on the Eye otherwise that I can recall

6) Hah! Tinya not being jealous. the whole "jealous of Shvaughn because she can touch Jo while I'm a ghost" thing... was a bit annoying, but I could understand it. i'm trying to think, in the early Reboot it was Sussa jealous of Tinya, Tinya herself was not... other than thinking Jo was a nass-head because he was basically two-timing Sussa and her, but Tinya didn't direct any of that to Susa so...

DnA and downtime episodes. um. I think... the only ones I can think of were issue 31, but Giffen guest-wrote it. so... no...

Oh no worries - I had actually meant to write about this weeks ago when I was going through these and responding, then stopped cause of other stuff, but these KC issues I felt warranted comment due to the bizarre takes on things.

It was clear to me that KC probably did not have teenage girls at the time. I have no idea if he and his wife have daughters now or not, but it would be interesting to see if he's ever revisited that story and wished he'd made different choices LOL.

On 4, I kind of think 2/3 Luornu would have been OK with it.

Good point on #5 - I think that's exactly what she was doing, but if she's going THERE, her turn back at the end felt false. Only Neutral went on an actual date with Chuck, and they didn't even kiss, so I'd think Lu would be giving Vi a run for her money with a Tri-Jitsu fight! LOL

To your poont on 1, I feel like they are complimentary of each other, which is why they work so well together. Zoe's introspection is more after the fact - she does stuff, then thinks/ruminates/journals about it later, where Vi seems to be very much the opposite, thinking before the action.

I do remember Purple and Orange being ok, and they had to restrain Neutral. so good point re parts of Triad being ok with.

great point re Vi thinking before acting, where Zoe acts before thinking! that is so them...