Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

They are dated because of the political subject matter, especially Watchmen's Cold War Doomsday Clock paranoia (ironically DKR contains an ACTUAL nuclear exchange, but still isn't as rooted in bomb fear as Watchmen is). I don't think that's a bad thing, it captured the mood at the time brilliantly (a lot of us were there and felt it pressing down on us), but to the modern reader it's more of a curiosity I think, and doesn't resonate nearly as much.

While I think there is emotional resonance in Watchmen, I'll agree it's not its strong point and continued re-reads become more of an intellectual exercise than an emotional one.

Dave, being of the same generation as you, I too remember the fear and paranoia of the times which even junior high schoolers like us couldn't totally escape from.

I would be interested in seeing you elaborate on where you find the emotional resonance in Watchmen. IMO, the only halfway interesting/full-blooded character is Rorschach, and even that was, by Moore's own admission, something of a misfire because Moore had intended him to be utterly repulsive and pathetic, but instead he became arguably the only character with a spine.

I looked out Dark Knight Returns from storage, and will be giving it a reread...

Three things grab me on the first page of the Dark Knight Returns.

Firstly, there’s the pacing. There’s sixteen panels on this page, showing the closing stages of a motor race. The small, closely packed first 11 panels are clear, but provide the speed of a car in trouble. When the car, driven by Wayne, has crashed, we switch to the final three panels. They keep the same rhythm of the rest, but broaden the stories scope to a news report, closing the scene with Wayne, and providing a link to the next page.

A quick glance there, shows that it has another 11 panels, but one is a big establishing shot of Gotham in the heat wave, followed by further reportage that sets up further themes of the issue – The crime wave, the heat, the Mutants, confirmation of Batman’s retirement and a threat to a departing Gordon’s life.

So, it’s not just pacing. In two pages, Miller has shown that he has an excellent grasp of storytelling. The change from Bruce’s thoughts to the reporter. The links between the scenes, and that establishing shot work very well. We get a lot of information, quickly, but it's conveyed concisely.

The second thing from the first page, is Miller’s grasp of DC’s history. The first panel shows an older Wayne in a racing car. He’s being talked to by someone called Carol. From the reporter at the end of the page, we learn that the car is a Ferris 6000. In two words, that are backdrops to the action, we know that Carol Ferris is alive, that her company has changed direction and that she’s still as hands on as ever. As I type this, there are all the thoughts about what the Ferris/Wayne working relationship means to the absent Ferris/Jordan one, and what that means for Earth’s emerald protector. A tiny touch, that opens out much wider connections to the DCU. That link will become increasing important as this story progresses.


Thirdly, we have Bruce himself. I find seeing him drive a racing car so publically a bit jarring. I’m used to him racing off in the Batmobile. I’m used to Wayne being the mask behind all of the action that Batman undertakes. Wayne is certainly risking his life here. This isn’t a front for his nocturnal activities. He knows that death is moments away. And we learn that as much as Bruce pushes himself in this new life, there’s something missing at the heart of him.

Now that’s just some initial thoughts on page 1. I know there are other themes still to be introduced. But the depth is already well established. It's already set itself apart from the majority of comics, and certainly those from the big two.

I think all the characters have emotional touch points.

Dan's entire arc is about his impotence (not just physically) in the face of a world beyond his control. Who wouldn't relate, at least on some level, to his search for assertiveness.

Laurie & Eddie's story may be pure soap opera melodrama in a way, but her reactions to the revelation, and here difficult relationship with her mother are there.

Adrian and Jon both suffer horribly from their sense of isolation, and handle their loneliness in different ways.

As I said, they aren't the book's strongest points, but they are there. And once again, contextually, there wasn't a lot in mainstream comics like these kinds of characters at the time either.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, Dave. I suppose those characterizations became so cliché so quickly that it's hard for me to have a sense of perspective. Thanks for providing one.

By now, you guys know that I'm obsessed with trades, hardcovers and omnibuses, right? Well, duhr, if you've been following my "Big-Ass Pile o'Trades" thread!

Well, I just came off a rant in the Miracleman thread about how Marvel tried to cash in on their acquisition of that long-contested property by over-pricing the individual issues and the collections. And I think it backfired on them, judging by the books not exactly lighting up their sales.

Anyhow, this reminded me of something that is really pissing me off. I've been buying the Marvel Masterworks: Uncanny X-Men volumes faithfully, not because I don't have the issues but because I love having the stories in convenient, high-quality bound format without the faded colors that Father Time ravages them with.

Last week, Marvel released the (for me) eagerly-anticipated volume 10, which reprints Uncanny 176-188, the Magick mini-series and a story from Marvel Fanfare #40 for a total of 456 pages. And it's listed for $100. I couldn't believe it because last year's volume 9 was listed at $75 for only 26 fewer pages.

Now, there has been a gradual price increase over the years since this Masterworks series began. Volume 9 was itself an increase of $15 from volume 8. However, volume 9 featured over 150 pages more. So it seemed worth it to me overall, and I had no real qualms, considering the extra pages and the realities of inflation.

But this...this is absolute CRAP! The other Masterworks series I've checked that have been or are being released this year, and they are all still running $75! Yeah, they are running fewer pages, but still more than the Masterworks series had been. But there's NOTHING to justify Vol. 10 being $25 more than 9!

THEN, consider a purchase I'd made the week before: the Alpha Flight Omnibus by John Byrne. It's SRP is also $100, but you get over $1200 pages for your money for a GORGEOUS book that has equal, if not better, production values! Plus, I'll add, arguably better stories in the AF book.

The answer to this conundrum seems obvious: the inflated price is on the X-Men book because a) it's the X-Men, and b) Marvel figures because of that fact, they can find eager fans to price-gouge.

Well, even considering In-Stock Trades' traditional half-priced new release special. I passed on this book I wanted a lot because I felt I should have been paying $37.50 instead of $50, based on the previous price and reasonable expectations.

Anyhow, I thought I would use this scenario to revive this long-dormant thread which was created to address a wide variety of things that we, as comics fans, might want to discuss. Please feel free to share your opinions and experiences on the matter and to bring up any other wide matters for open discussion that maybe you've been itching to get off your chest!

Yay, Lardy's Roundtable is back!

Here's what's been on my mind lately regarding trades, and specifically those collecting vintage (and not-so-vintage) tales:

It has become an inescapable source of frustration for me that even as the expansion of trade collections over the past 15-plus years has brought back a lot of good stuff that deserves to be rediscovered, the choices of what gets collected and what doesn't appear to be either random or driven by the personal agendas of the people currently running the publishers (especially in Marvel's case -- I mean, who would be enough of a masochist and have enough spare money to buy Omnibus collections of such crap-tacular, and deservedly forgotten, embarrassments as "Secret Wars II" and "Atlantis Attacks?")

Moreover, as more stuff has gotten collected, the production values have diminished. I still have the very first trade I ever bought, the first edition of "Uncanny X-Men: The Dark Phoenix Saga," published in the "dark ages" of 1991, when only a select few stories would even be considered for trade collections. Not only that, it also had a beautiful new cover by Bill Sinkiewicz, and, crucially, optimal-quality paper stock which not only improved upon the printing quality of the original comics, it gave the art, by John Byrne, Terry Austin, and Glynis Oliver, a hyper-clarity that truly brought out how much extra effort the artists put into this work, but also made the trade worth the expense.

But these days, I find that Marvel's reprints of stories from the 70s, 80s, and 90s tend to actually look WORSE than the original printings, with truly pitiful color reconstructions which produce the opposite effect as the earlier style of trades. And as for DC, they have always had a tendency to use cheap paper for a large percentage of their trades collecting the older stuff (at least it keeps the prices down, or that's how the theory goes), but, as with Marvel, the stories selected for the special treatment don't seem driven by quality or even popularity, but by the petty whims of the people in charge.

I'll come back later to add more thoughts.

Thank you for reactivating this thread, Lardy.

That wasn't the first edition, unless it was bought as a back issue. I know, because the DPS was the first TPB I ever bought, and that was back in '84. And it cost me the "steep" price of $6.95! This and the "Demon in a Bottle" trade (which I didn't get) released around the same time as touted by house ads were the first two modern trades I recall ever seeing. Before that, the closest things to them were some irregular reprints I'd see that were the size of prose paperbacks and were often black and white.

I still have that DPS trade, but it's falling apart. She certainly was beautiful though and kind of a life-changer!



I'm curious to see some examples of what you mean because overall I've been extremely satisfied with the quality of the Omnibuses and Masterworks. Do you mean regular and over-sized trades like the Epic Collections and such? if so, I'd agree with you overall, but I tend to overlook that in favor of having the stories finally available and because I always seek and find such bargains. But I can think of no complaints with the Omnibuses and higher end stuff--other than scattered pricing issues like the X-Men Masterwork issue above, of course.




Overall, I've bought many more Marvel trades than DC, primarily because Marvel overall tends to collect more of the runs I love or am interested in. It sucks because I overall lean toward DC in my heart. The main thing I've noticed with my higher end DC stuff's quality was that my CoIE "deluxe" edition features surprisingly thin paper. I hear it has something to do with that transitional printing process ("flexographic" or something?) used at the time being somehow hard to convert. I really need to read it soon, though, to truly judge if it was the right choice for it. I've read some chatter about that book that goes both ways, positive and negative, and seems evenly split.

I have very few DC Omnibuses compared to Marvel's, but a particular complaint I had been hearing about DC's several years ago was that the stories tended to edge too far toward the binding, so that it could be hard to see the edges of the panels that went to the interior. (I hope I'm describing this so it makes sense. It's kinda like if you are reading a prose paperback and have to press it open wider to see all of the words.) I heard this particularly about the Silver Age collections of JLA, Flash and GL, etc., IIRC.

Any runs you guys would like to see be made into Omnibuses or trade collections that have not been collected to this point?

Me, I'd love to see Omnibuses for John Ostrander's Suicide Squad and Spectre runs. The former is currently being collected as trades, but I'm holding out hope that it gets upgraded to Omnibuses. I'd also like to see a series of Firestorm Omnibuses beginning with the Conway material.

I also desperately want the Walt Simonson's Thor Omnibus brought back for a new printing. It's been out of print for years, and it typically sells for $300 or more in the secondary market. I'm hoping one will coincide with the release of Thor: Ragnarok.

I'd also love New Mutants, post-Crisis Superman (beginning with the Man of Steel mini) and Mike Grell's Warlord to get the omnibus treatment.

I Omnibuses!

- Phil Jimenez's Wonder Woman run.

- Armagedoon 2001, with the original revelation of Monarch as Captain Atom restored.

- Harras & Epting's Avengers run; I don't mind whether they start with The Collection Obsession or not, but at the very least, it has to cover 343 through 375.

- The first 21 issues of Len Kaminski's Iron Man run, climaxing with issue 300.

More to come...

As I was trying to think of more runs I want to see get the Omnibus treatment, it occurred to me that there should be more best-of trades, whether it's the best of a certain creator or creative team, memorable appearances by a certain character or whatever.

For instance, I'd love to see a Titans/New Titans/New Teen Titans/Teen Titans trade collecting only the high points from various spotty runs which are unlikely to ever be collected in their entirety. I'm thinking in particular that Jay Faerber's opening solo 2-part arc on The Titans (issues 21-22), with the team pitted against Cheshire, Deathstroke, and a bunch of fun one-shot villains created by Faerber, outshines everything on either side of it from The Titans' 50-issue run (what I've read of it, at least. Let's just say I'm in no hurry to plug up the gaps, and leave it at that.)

Obviously it's less likely than ever, but Green Lantern: Mosaic.

Given his level of detail, anything with Perez art is going to be phenomenal in Omnibus form.

Definitely second the Ostrander stuff, especially Spectre. The Mandrake art would be phenomenal in Omnibus. Peter Milligan's Shade the Changing Man 1-50.

Excellent suggestion, though I'd be reluctant to leave out 51-70, divisive as they may be. Maybe do a Vol. 1 and Vol 2?

Some more that occur to me are Busiek/Nicieza Thunderbolts, Roger Stern's Avengers and Ann Nocenti's Daredevil with Romita, Jr. and later Lee Weeks.



I've told you before, I would definitely pick that up if it ever gets collected!

All excellent suggestions, especially Ann's DD, to my mind the most under-appreciated DD run of all time, and it holds up better than...um...a certain looney-tooney dude's DD run. You know, the guy who made his idol Will Eisner spin in his grave with that awful Spirit movie...

As for Stern's Avengers, I'd suggest it would be best to focus on the post-250/post-Milgrom issues, as the run up til then is IMHO erratic in quality. But from the Vision-Conquers-the-World arc, through the 29 Big John B/T Palmer Sr issues, it rarely misses a step.

And regarding T-Bolts, I think it should be divided into one volume for Busiek's 30-plus issues and maybe two volumes for Nicieza's 42-or-so issues. I used to think that Nicieza's run kinda spiraled after Mark Bagley left less than 20 issues into Fabe's run, but in hindsight, the post-Bags issues are fun in a trippy sort of way.

For that matter, as much as I dislike Civil War, I'm glad that at least it keeps Fabe's last few T-Bolts issues in print; they're not perfect, but there's some interesting...and again, trippy...stuff going on. And I still think Joystick, or rather, the way she came alive as chronicled by Fabe, is a great anti-heroine who deserves all the accolades that go to Jessica Jones or whoever. Joystick's secret origin issue, T-Bolts #102, is, in my mind, a must-read for anybody who likes anti-heroines!



Awwww...much appreciated, Lardy.

And here's another run I'd nominate for the Omnibus treatment -- the 30 or so Don Newton/E. Nelson Bridwell Shazam backups from "World's Finest!" It's already well-established that I think Newton was a wonderful artist whom we lost way too soon, but his Shazam work seems to have a special love to it, maybe because Newton was already a fan of the Golden Age Marvel Family since childhood.

I remember loving those World's Finest Shazam! stories. I was too young to pay attention to creators in those days, and haven't revisted them since. One of the many reread projects I keep considering is all of DC's Dollar Books.

Unfortunately, whenever I start to think seriously about it, content creep sets in until it inevitably turns into "read pretty much the entire Bronze Age of both DC and Marvel," and then collapses under it's own weight before I even begin.

I know that everything on my Wish List so far has been post-Bronze Age, but I'm constantly feeling drawn toward Bronze Age material, as folks here following my "Pile" thread are aware. My eyebrow arches at any such collection, whether I am familiar with the material or not. Obviously, I cut my teeth on comics starting in the late '70s. Marvel and especially DC got most of my allowance money after a brief spell of starting mostly with Harvey.

What I remember so fondly of those years was never feeling disappointed after reading an issue! I know I was younger and my tastes simpler, but still--no disappointments? Simply unheard of, these days! (I think the only disappointment came when the story was continued, and I couldn't find the next issue.) And when I revisit those stories or others from the era, I generally feel the same way. There were plenty of good stories told with what I feel is higher quality art.

I remember fondly those dollar comics that I bought: World's Finest and Detective Comics. Coupled with one of my favorite series, DC Comics Presents (and B&B to a lesser degree), I really got a feel for the breadth of the DCU and fell in love with its characters.

Basically, I'd loved the hell out of an Omnibus of some of those dollar serials or DCCP or practically any Bronze Age collection. For the most part, I just don't know what to wish for specifically.

I'll disagree. While it definitely gets a lot better with Buscema and Palmer, even the first half goes a long way toward bringing the Avengers back to greatness, starting off the bat with Stern doing the best he can to salvage the Hank Pym mess. Though saddled with Milgrom on art (a burden passed on to Steve Englehart's otherwise-memorable West Coast Avengers run) early on, even those issues are memorable and forward-moving.



I must admit that I did jump off T-Bolts at some point during the Nicieza era. I remember being very satisified with the transition at first and for a long time but became disenfranchised at some point. I don't know if that was after Bagley left the book or what. Or it may very well have just coincided with a low period in comics for me when subscribing to comics online went sour. My memory's a bit fuzzy there.

Those Shazam stories you mention were by E. Nelson Bridwell and Don Newton, maybe the most under-appreciated artist of the Bronze Age.

http://diversionsofthegroovykind.blogspot.com/2017/02/decent-comics-courtship-of-captain-nazi.html

Rob-Em, meet Fanfic Lady....




Feel free to throw some Newton love at each other! I know Fick's the biggest Don Newton fan I've run into, so she'd be over the moon for some in-depth talk about the man!

Anyhow, about back-ups during the dollar comic era of WF--I was especially fond of the Hawkman and Green Arrow strips. I don't remember either plot very intricately, but I liked them. The Hawkman one particularly had (possibly) the first-ever seeds of Thanagar intrigue that continues to this day and featured Hyathis and a bit of marital strife for the Hawks that had young me concerned! I remember the GA strip featured Count Vertigo as the villain that has influenced my regard for that character ever since.

Fair enough. And I'll admit still have some problems with those issues, such as bringing Zemo and Atlas back to life shortly after having killed them off, and Graviton committing mass murder of a group of characters we'd barely gotten a chance to know. That kind of stuff just screams behind-the-scenes editorial chaos to me.

I should also clarify that my last paragraph in that post refers to Fabe's 2nd T-Bolts run, from 2004 (with Busiek co-writing the first few issues) through 2007. It was nutty and all-over-the-place for a while, but in the remaining nine or so Fabe issues right after Genis-Vell's death, it improved quite a bit IMHO.

Tee hee.

Thanks, Lardy.

I could go on about Don Newton for pages and pages of posts. I find his work to have the same mixture of pretty people, cartoonish whimsy, and energetic storytelling that I find in Alan Davis (who has readily admitted that Newton was a big influence on him.) But Newton's lines were a bit looser than Davis's, and when he had an ideal inker (i.e. Dan Adkins, or Dick Giordano, or his personal friend Josef Rubinstein) the effect almost reminded me a bit of the best artistic teamwork by John Buscema & Tom Palmer. For that matter, when Steve Epting started doing his own inking more frequently around 2004 and the beginning of his Captain America run with Ed Brubaker, I see a similar feel in his work to Newton's finest.

More Newton stuff (and a bit of shameless self-promotion) if it's okay with you, Lardy:

I recently re-read the 1979 Detective Comics story arc, drawn (beautifully) by Don Newton, which begins with the death of Kathy Kane, the original Batwoman. The reason for that is because it's the only story with the Pre-CoIE Kathy (as opposed to her "edgy" (HA, HA) modern iteration, Kate Kane, whom not even Steve Epting could get me to care about) that I've ever read, and I was planning to do a Those 70s Titans vignette involving Bette "Bat-Girl" Kane bantering with Kathy, her aunt, mentor, and guardian.

Kathy's dialogue, by Denny O'Neil (who, at the time, probably assumed he'd never write the Bat-verse again, much less edit it, because he was moving to Marvel), is delightful, so redolent of the "tough dames" from old black & white movies. That's why it broke my heart when I looked up Kathy's Wikipedia entry and found a quote from Denny along the lines of, "Kathy was expendable." Jeez Louise, I mean I know you have to be unsentimental to work in comics (or any showbiz industry, really), but...wow.

And least she looked beautiful and talked sassy in her final appearance. There are much worse ways for a superheroine to make her exit.

I only have vague memories of those Captain Marvel stories, and have always known Don Newton's name without associating it with any visuals. What would you say is the best thing to read to put his best foot forward right off the bat?

Denny O'Neil has admitted that he was behind the times on feminism when he was pushing an otherwise progressive viewpoint during the 70s. It shows in both Wonder Woman, and that dreadful GL/GA where Black Canary is transformed into a man-hating shrew. He said it was his wife and daughter (s?) that woke him up.

I'm sure he's much improved as a writer by the time he got to the late 70s and crafted a better version of his female characters, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't really give the female characters a lot of thought in terms of representation.