Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion Rebirth Speculation

bloomin' heck. I went off to lunch thinking I'd have ages to finish the last two paragraph and post. No one will notice I screwed up pressing the send button too early, I said.


Now above

Thoth, thank you for, as always, providing plenty of food for thought in a fair and balanced manner.



Oh, Gods, "Kingdom Come," what a gilded turd (thank you, Alan Moore,) that turned out to be when I re-read it a couple months ago for the first time since its original publication. Yeesh.

I think I see where you're coming from, Thoth, (and I laughed out loud at your pithy, succinct dissection of the 80s Super-Boot ), but what I believe sets the Legion apart from other venerable DC Comics IPs is that it has spent most of its nearly 60 years of existence as one of comics' most resilient cult favorites of all time. It did promise (threaten?) to vault over to the next level and become a household name circa 1983-1987, before it was badly wounded by the Death of Superboy, after which TMK delivered what, in my humble opinion, was the killing blow. I am firmly convinced that, had it not been for Levitz's Post-Universo creative tailspin prompted by the messy aftermath of CoIE, and for TMK (again, IMHO,) over-compensating by radically altering the Legion into something so culty it was painful (for many, but not all, readers), then the Legion as it was circa Levitz/Lightle/LaRocque would have been showcased in all its bright-coloured glory as the flagship launch of Warner Bros Animation as headed by the great Jean MacCurdy. (Instead, we got "Batman: The Animated Series", an admittedly great show which nonetheless had the negative effect of vindicating the DC/Warners execs who felt at the time that only the Big Three (Supes, Bats, Wondy) were worth the effort and expense of cross-media synergy. Of course, that's changed considerably in the past decade, and we did finally get a Legion cartoon, and a decent one at that (for its 1st season, at least,) but it was not the long-running, unqualified artistic and commercial success that we might have been blessed with during Warners' MacCurdy era.



Good observation. And it makes me wonder (Led Zep reference intentional) if King might have achieved a smoother, meatier resolution to the overarching "Omega Men" story-arc if it had remained an ongoing for at least one more year. Well, as you observed in your "Omega Men" review, there's no reason it couldn't have an equally good sequel...



Aha. The most persistent criticism of the Postboot Legion rises yet again. But in all seriousness, I firmly believe, after having recently read all but 12 issues of the Postboot, that it wasn't until after the overarching story told within the first three dozen issues (plus the Kon Superboy tie-in) that the lazy rehashing started. That, too, may have come down to editorial monkey business (ATM, I can't recall exactly when K.C. Carlson was replaced by Mike McAvennie, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened at a turning point for the worst; and, for the record, I think that even though the quality of the Postboot was at its most *consistent* for the first 18 months, there were still a goodly number of bright spots (the Mordru 3-parter from L* #48-50 was the first one I thought of; the second one I thought of was actually Roger Stern's debut issue, LSH #35, where Shvaughn, Lori, Tenzil, and Chuck stand alone at Legion HQ. Good times.) My point being, I still believe that the Pre-DnA/strictly adolescent approach to the Postboot could have lasted for decades, if only it had been gifted with better editors and more disciplined writing (perhaps the three-headed approach contributed to the inconsistency of quality?)



Here I have to disagree. IMHO, without the teenagers angle, the Legion is just another superhero book. And, sure, the more-than-worthy likes of New Teen Titans, Young Justice, and Marvel's New Warriors temporarily stole its adolescent thunder at different times (funny, isn't it, how NTT's prolonged decline more or less coincided with the extended rise of Levitz Legion Mark 2?) But Legion was THE original teen superhero team book, and the cream shall (eventually) rise again.



Puppy love -- and the more syrupy and flowery the better -- always outdoes adult-oriented creepiness in the end. (IMHO.)



LOL Teeds will certainly appreciate that, I think.

While I reiterate that I quite enjoyed both the early part of the DnA Legion run and King's Omega Men arc, I still don't think that an Omega Men-ish approach to the Legion is the one that's going to stand out and make a difference in the current depressed market. Nature abhors a vacuum, and I can't think of a single Big Two superhero comic ATM, team or solo, that does the teen thing right. We *need* a teenage Legion, in my opinion. Urgently.



Yes, I do seem to recall a thread you started right around that time about a follow-up to the Retroboot, featuring a Brainy-led Legion. And though my Anti-Retroboot views have only hardened since then, it's still a worthy discussion to continue, especially as we still don't know whether or not the next Legion will have any ties to past continuity. So here 'tis:

https://www.legionworld.net/forums/u...;Words=Brainy&Search=true#Post788679

Could the Legion be relaunched under the new Young Animal imprint? Not that that's a guarantee of good writing/art... from a selfish standpoint, I wouldn't want to see young teens again.

The other thing I've been thinking about is whether a group like the Legion should be updated to consider new scientific knowledge. You'd still have things that require suspension of disbelief, but we know a lot more about the planets, the galaxy, how space travel might work, nanotech, how the brain/mind functions, etc. than even 10 years ago. It might mean the loss of the Jovian Attack Squid, but we can't have everything.

Good point about the tech needing to appear plausible and up-to-date, FC.

As I recall, Chris Batista addressed that exact matter a couple of years ago, when he had a conversation with Dave Hackett about what he'd do if he were writing & drawing the Legion. I'll go look for that thread now, and edit a link into this post once I find it.

EDIT: Actually, I think it'll work better if I copy and paste Dave's comments into a single mashed-up quote, because he made more than one post about Chris:



And if anyone's interested in the replies to Dave's posts, here's the page where it begins, just scroll down a bit:

http://www.legionworld.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=786308&page=15

Since we're talking about technology changing a lot of iconic Legion ideas (hopefully for the better) I'd submit that it makes no sense that only Legionnaires have the right (or ability) to fly around without the aid of a vehicle.

A flight ring could still have ceremonial (or sentimental) value, though.

Agreed, Cleome (And, BTW, welcome back ) nothing can quite improve on a Legion Cruiser, especially one of Cockrum Era vintage.

And thank you for always taking my posts in the spirit in which they’re intended, and better yet for all the posts that lead up to those responses. It’s always appreciated.

Legion World Hug-In will be right back after this thoth post…



Oh, and thanks for not holding back

I’m not sure what was worse. That everything Moore jots down on a fag packet is like gold dust to everyone, when even he doesn’t think so. Or that DC spent thirty years slaving their universe to it all. Actually, the latter is worse.



I might like discussing a lot around this (like the bit in your post after that), but I don’t contend with any of that.

Here’s an analogy. Omega Men was due to be cancelled with issue 6. But in the end the team kept on working and provided us with the complete graphic novel, a satisfying finale and a rather solid launching pad for further stories.

Over on TMK Legion, the making of Issue 4 was when there was an editorial mess. We did get a crackingly good response in the next couple of issues. But by issue 12 we’ve had 3 fill in issues and the Legion is reformed off panel after the guy they hunt down faints. Now imagine if King had acted like that.



Thanks for this. It’s an area I know very little about, and it’s a really interesting take on what might have been. It’s easy to get caught up in the book, and forget that it’s part of a much wider organisation with its own opportunities and pitfalls. Both that can have an impact on what I hate to call “The Franchise”



I surely get points for showing that was how it felt, rather than stating if those feelings were at all valid

From today’s memory cell, I’m still not sure about the very first issues, but the ones just after were certainly full of that brightness and youthful optimism. The issue where Kinetix and Violet join is just one good example. I still couldn’t have given it more time. I tried a few issues and I was still feeling a bit robbed by what had gone before.

Not that what went before was great, but because those characters were potentially only one writer away from being that way again. And I know the creative team felt that they went through lots of ideas to see if they felt it could be salvaged. And couldn’t.

I certainly didn’t give the DnA run any time. Had they restarted with #1 being Legion of the Damned I would have been hooked. But Legion #1 didn’t work for me, and I didn’t get any further.



Very possibly, in the same way that the original Adventure run could have continued indefinitely. No reason why not, with the usual peaks and troughs being involved.



Fair point. I’ll need to think a bit more there. I was a little caught even as I typed it. I kept recalling all those stolen kisses, Tenzil’s loneliness, and the girls v the boys dynamics in some issues. Heck, the girls playing with Olsen’s affections. Then there’s all that Legion lore built on top of it. So, there’s no doubt the Legion wouldn’t be what it is without them being teenagers.

But I was also thinking of Levitz’s run. Do they have to become teenagers again, or is their history enough to have adventures pitched with characters say in their twenties? That might have been my point, assuming I had one



Good point. The teenage angle would certainly stand out. Having them back in that bright, optimistic future again would also. Heck, it would just be refreshing. And, as much as I like the more grown up stories, that’s the way it may have to be for the Legion to come back again.

Thinking of the shifts in the Legion history and my mention of Superman above, how long would it be before that bright optimism was shifted for storytelling effect and the cycle would begin again? I could only hope that they learned enough last time round, not to break it this time round.



Crumbs! Like Teeds remembering my anniversary thread the other day, your memory’s better than mine. I got jotting right around that post.

Ironically, considering I’ve just harped on about an older Legion, a lot of the cast turned out to be pretty young with their arcs taking them through some youthful personal issues

With the youth of Pai, Hadru, Gahji, Ognats, Vole, Rikane and Danielle Foccart in there, there was no shortage of people finding their way in a galaxy that looks pretty gritty for a while.

Hey, ah’m not >hic< all One Word Posts ya know! >hic< >falls over in heap<

"Hi, this is the Universo Helpline. Keeping you connected through the wormholes."

Reanimage: Quantum Queen. I thought they killed you.
QQ: They did, but quantum entanglement means there's another one.

"No, things have looked up since the UP started to outsource their prison system." - Nardo.

"Sorry Brainy, but the patent protection has expired on your force field belt. Now everyone can feel that little bit safer. Hand it over."

"...and this is my I-Com. We call it a Computo for fun, but that's just to wind up the old folks and their clunky gadgets."

Kent: So, they are Jovian attack squid.
Brainy: But on a nano-scale. Look at them beat the last of that weird space plague.

My pleasure, Thoth, my pleasure.




Holding back? Moi? Unthinkable!

Tee hee.




As would I.



That is so well-put, I might use it as my new signature once I'm done shilling for my upcoming robot fics.




You're welcome. I've actually been fascinated with the behind-the-scenes process of the entertainment industry since before I was even a tween! I think it really puts a lot of stuff into perspective, although even with all that extra knowledge, some pills can still be very bitter for a fan to swallow. (I doubt I'll ever get over Marvel's precipitous decline in quality between 1994 and 1995, if only because *I was there* while it went down, every painful step of the way.)



But of course, mein freund*.



I look forward to reading your further explorations of this topic.



Exactly.



And again, that's what I consider one of the good things about the Adventure Era. It oscillated seamlessly (and most likely without any deliberate planning on the part of Weisinger or the writers) from light to shade and back, the joyful triumphalism of the Devil's Dozen story followed immediately by the Sun-Eater menace, the formation of the Fatal Five, and the death of Ferro Lad. And yet, it never felt jarring to me, nor does it feel that way upon re-reads. I'm not sure just how Mort & His Merry Men did it, but it bears pondering.





*I actually do have some German genes, thanks to my maternal grandmother having half of her roots there.

LOL

That's brilliant!

It's an ursine homage to "The Thinker."

Love it! Thanks, Thoth.

Thanks for the thoughts Fanfic Lady.

I was okay with the nine-panel layout, but I've admittedly not read much comics that sued that style. I don't think it was an in-joke, but more fo a way for King to show passage of time and spread out a scene better than, say, something Scott Lobdell would do. I'm not sure if it was him or Mikel Janin, but "Grayson" didn't use small panels as much, so it may just be a thing he does for his darker series, like "The Omega Men" and "The Vision".

Having read King's "The Vision", I think he's good with adolescents... when he bothers to write them. He does a good job using the Vision's daughter, Viv, as a stable, relatable character in the story, separating her from the stoic Vision and manipulative Virginia. And he brings the teen trappings of doubt, hormones (digital hormones?) and fitting in with her. Honestly, I think he'd write teens well if he had a cast full of them. That hasn't been the case so far, but I don't think he'd be BAD at it.

I have much less faith in Larson's plotting. I've ONLY read her "Batgirl", and that's only because, judging from Wikipedia, she took a break from comics at the time I got into them. But "Batgirl's" plotting is just non-existent. It's much more focused on Barbara's young adult vacation, which works with the theme we're given, that she has to find herself for whatever reason, but also means there's no urgency to anything. I think Larson would be best as someone who does unwind arcs, maybe even alternating with King. Or maybe I'm wrong and her previous work doesn't have the problems her "Batgirl" does, but judging just from that, she feels like Brian Michael Bendis when he first started, but without any of the darker trappings.

Oh, and as an aside: I HATE Kelly Thompson's writing. I hated her reviews when she was at CBR and I hate her dialogue which comes off as a not-as-good Kelly Sue Deconnick. I haven't read "Jem", but Thompson's previous stuff annoys me almost as much as Kieron Gillen with no hipster filter (and I say that as someone who knows a lot of hipsters), except some of his stuff is kind of clever (I swear, he's the only person who has ever made Mister Sinister NOT ridiculously lame).

If I could recommend a writer, I'd say Jackson Lanzing and Collin Kelly. They did really good with "Joyride", a sci-fi comic featuring a group of teens stealing a ship from an strict Earth government and doing what you'd expect, and doing some soul searching and bonding along the way, hormones and all. It had problems, the biggest of which was an IMMENSELY annoying "rebel teenage girl" cliche of a main character (seriously, think of the most cliche version of that character given the setting I've detailed, AND SHE IS IT), but it was really adventurous and fun, while still being dramatic. It recently got made into an ongoing which is nice (it was a mini), and I hope these two get more work, because their credits were "Batman and Robin Eternal", which is the most generic credit ever outside of "Batman Eternal". I think people need to learn that NOBODY KNOWS WHO DID ANYTHING FOR THE ETERNALS! Unless you were either Snyder or Tynion!



Anyway...

I think the Legion DEFINITELY has to start out young. The self-discovery that comes with that age would definitely help add a bigger sense of adventure to the Legion. They don't have to STAY that way -- more on that below -- but I think we should definitely see them as newcomers for a while. Space is a great setting for youthful adventures, even something as simple as taking a joyride means more in a space setting.

But we SHOULD see them grow. They have to. You can only do the youthful adventure stuff for so long before people get tired of it. And more importantly, people WANT characters to grow these days, and I think DC have finally realised that. I say take a Wally West approach, and let us follow the Legion from their youthful pubescent adventures, to their more serious adult-oriented lives. We can see the Legion go from untrusted clubhouse to real organisation again. But the thing about this approach, as the Wally situation shows, is that YOU. CAN'T. REBOOT. THIS. I think, by this point, Legion fans are open to another reboot. It's necessary to get new readers, and the Retroboot did not work out well. But if these new readers hop onto a Legion book, and follow these characters from their teenage years to adulthood, with all of that development, they're obviously going to get attached. So rebooting that years down the road for whatever reason? That won't just turn off the fans of this hypothetical Fourboot Legion/ReLegion, but it'll turn off future readers who will think they shouldn't be attached to these characters again, but just the stories.

Of course, this also depends on what kind of stories "Teen Titans" is going to tell, because it's got much more name recognition than the Legion, and if a new reader had to pick between the two, the team with Robin, Kid Flash, Starfire, Raven, Beastboy and probably more than a few guest appearances from the Jon Smith Superboy and Emiko Queen, is going to seem a better pick than that series with the guys with the rings. If "Teen Titans" goes the youthful adventure, romanticise the crap out of every teenage thing route, then Legion might come off as more than a bit redundant.

Oh, and I would NOT put Legion at Young Animal. I really enjoyed the first issue of Gerard Way's "Doom Patrol", but given the weirdness already associated with Young Animal, I don't think it'd be smart. Plus, I think having stronger ties to the DCU would help it (oh, and please do the Reboot thing and make them be inspired by superheroes in general and not just Superman!), and the possibilities for crossovers as well.

Hello again, Fuzzy Barbarian.

Firstly, a heartfelt *thank you* for galvanizing the Legion forum during these awkward wait-and-see weeks leading up to finding out exactly what DC has planned for our beloved Legion. And another thank you for steering me and Thoth, and I imagine other Legion Worlders who haven't yet chimed in on it, towards Tom King's quite worthy "Omega Men" story -- King's OM affected me on another level I didn't mention in my earlier posts: It inspired a great deal of last-minute re-thinking and improving of one of my current fanfic projects, with which it turned out to share many of the same themes, proving *yet again* that there is no such thing as coincidence.

Secondly, and without spoiling anything, I'd recommend checking any and all of Hope Larson's non-superhero works. 'Nuff said.

Thirdly, be assured that I don't hold your negative opinion of Kelly Thompson and her writing against you, not for a picosecond. In fact, I laughed out loud at the Kieron Gillen comparison (a brief digression: I highly recommend you doing a search for Kieron Gillen-related posts in the Dr. Gym'll's forum, which should turn up some choice critiques of his lesser works, and of his dreadful "Young Avengers" run in particular.) The *only* thing that *did* bother me a *little bit* was when you said that her dialogue is inferior to Kelly Sue DeConnick's, because I think no female writer, except maybe Gail Simone, writes worse dialogue than DeConnick (I swear, "Bitch Planet" has got to be the most hollow product of pointless hype in recent memory.) Otherwise, to each their own.

Fourthly, I'll look around for "Joyride" trades. If it's even half as good as "Omega Men," I'll be a happy reader. Thanks for the recommendation.

Now, then, the Legion:

I disagree that people would get tired of the youthful adventure approach. And that segues nicely onto something that occurred to me between my last visit to Legion World and this current one -- namely, that while the term "Archie Legion" started out as an Anti-Postboot slur, I personally have come around to believing that the Archie parallels are something to be *embraced*, not cast out! I mean, for fuck's sake, the Archie-verse has managed to endure for, what *75 years* and counting??

And to all the grain-of-sand criticisms that the Archie comics are corny and formulaic, and that they dilute the dirty and messy aspects of Real Life adolescence and make them safe for mass consumption, I can only reply:

Yes, and?

There's a good reason why it's called *entertainment* -- we all need to escape, from time to time, into the kind of fictional world that is impossible yet irresistible because it strikes a universal chord which no amount of verbiage could ever hope to adequately describe. (Pot, kettle, black? Maybe. If so, I can live with that.)

(Also, as a quick aside, I haven't read the recent re-imaginings of the Archie-verse, but I've yet to hear a bad word about the them. So I've nothing against a comic book publisher adapting to changing times by evolving their approach into something more sophisticated, just as long is it doesn't lose sight of the fundamentals, the very essence, of the fictional universe in question.)

So I say, and please excuse my language, fuck pseudo-realism. Throughout the past three decades, consumers of entertainment have been put through the wringer a million times over. It's past time for the pendulum to swing to the other extreme. It could even be argued that it's in the process of happening (more on that shortly.)

Now, I do agree that a final and definitive never-to-happen-again reboot is advisable, and that to even consider any more reboots beyond that would be disastrous, for the reasons you've already listed. I would only add the caveat that there would be no need to worry about a reboot if the status quo remains sacrosanct, thus eliminating the need for a reboot.

Which brings me to something I happened to be discussing late last night with a friend in a chatroom. Namely, that if the comic book industry is going to survive, it's going to have to at least temporarily go back to the ancient practices of doing done-in-one, done-in-two, and, on special occasions only, done-in-three stories, as accessible as possible to casual readers, and as free as possible from the rigmarole of that fallen angel known as continuity Because if it worked during the Legion's Adventure Era, there's no reason it can't work again. The cycle coming full circle and all that.

As for "Teen Titans," I think it's a moot point, because the Titans have been a burned-out husk since at least 1988, maybe even since 1985, a zombie demi-verse within the DC Universe which gets periodically jolted back to pseudo-life just to hold on to those copyrights. And if anyone would argue that the Geoff Johns Titans will endure the same way that the first five years of the Marv Wolfman New Teen Titans have, well, no offense intended, but all I can say is...

BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!

(Addendum: Although I have developed a greater tolerance and acceptance of the Giffen/De Matteis JLI of yesteryear, I'm still categorically not a fan. That said, I embrace my inalienable right as a comic book reader to quote That Laugh whenever I feel it applies to the discussion at hand.)

I'll have to check out some of Larson's stuff. Hopefully it holds up, though most 2000s stuff holds up well in at least one area, mostly dialogue or art. Any specific recommendations would be appreciated

The "Bitch Planet" thing... HOW DARE YOU?! BITCH PLANET?! REALLY?! ARE NO THINGS SACRED?! How dare you think I like that series?! What did I do to deserve that?! Unless I implied otherwise! If so, I am so sorry! I apologise! I hate that series too! It's trite, shallow, unsubtle pandering at its absolute best! Please don't think I like it! I beg you! I actually became a fan of Deconnick because of her brief arc with Warren Ellis on "Avengers Assemble", and I think one issue of "Captain Marvel", even though I still think Carol Danvers is as exciting as Barry Allen (I kid, I kid. Nobody's at Barry's level of boring). Also, I'm not sure if I said it here or elsewhere, but all of Simone's dialogue, until REALLY recently, read like comments on internet forums. I thought she had the worst dialogue possible -- say what you want about Bendis, but when his dialogue works (when the stars align and the comic gods give their blessing) it REALLY works -- until recently. If you want a good laugh, I'd recommend you read Benjamin Percy's current "Green Arrow" ongoing. One line of dialogue made me drop that: "objectify me, and you'll bleed." I have never heard a more "I want this to trend on Tumblr" line in my entire life! Also, the character that said that is like 14.

If you read "Joyride", be prepared for lots anger. That Generic Rebellious Teenage Girl character? She's the main protagonist... But hey, Marcus To art is always nice, especially when he channels Francis Manapul.

I think Archie works because continuity isn't really meant to be a thing for them (is it?). It's a slice of life kind of thing, and lack of continuity works for that genre. Comic readers, more than any other audience, seem to like long-term continuity, so it makes repeating stories a bit harder. Also, just development is just harder if you want to maintain the status quo. And I don't think excapist literature NEEDS to maintain a status quo, but set-up an interesting universe. To each their own, I guess

When it comes to the Legion's financial success, not only do I think shorter story arcs are a must, but I also think DC have to realise that the direct market may not respond well to the Legion long-term. Yeah, they've got a cult following and are respected, but they've also got more baggage associated with them than the X-Men! So pushing for trade sales would also help (just look at "Omega Men"). Maybe put that one-off issue as a bonus in a Superman trade, even! Marvel put the first issue of "Inhuman" into the first issue of "Amazing Spider-Man" #1 when it was relaunched around the time of "Amazing Spider-Man 2" and that definitely helped that franchise. If DC can not only remove the cost of entry, but have a readership that might already respond well to the Legion, I think it'd work infinitely better.

Especially if they're not going to use a big name creator. I jokingly take jabs at him, but I think Gerard Way is kinda the Ben Affleck of comics: he's got a sizeable hatedom from past work, but managed to shake that off with some really acclaimed projects (I haven't read "Umbrella Academy", but apparently it's amazing). His name probably got more than a few people to buy "Doom Patrol", even though the series' reputation is "read only when high af." Something else else similar would really help the Legion; a big name creator to entice people to try a series that has a reputation of not being new reader-friendly

I agree regarding "Teen Titans"; frankly, if the characters didn't already have their own strong fanbases, nobody would really care about the franchise (though I personally think the franchise started going downhill in the second half of the 90s "Titans" series). And I think Geoff Johns' team was horrid, but apparently there was TONS of editorial interference, e.g. making Bart Kid Flash was not his idea, and he actually hated it. But if I was a new reader, I think the Teen Titans would be much more appealing, if only because of the more recognisable characters and name brand.

My Hope Larson Top Three, plot-and-spoiler-free for maximum enjoyment:

1. "Mercury"

2. "A Wrinkle in Time" (adaptation of another author's prose work)

3. "Chiggers"

Happy reading.

Re: "Bitch Planet", don't hold back or anything. But seriously, I didn't think for a moment that you liked it, or that you like DeConnick's writing, I just felt it was a bit harsh to say that Thompson's writing is worse than her's. I respect your opinion, but Thompson's my girl and I have to stand up for her. (And, as it happens, the only upcoming Marvel book I'm awaiting with bated breath is Thompson's Kate Bishop "Hawkeye" solo book.)

Re: "Doom Patrol", I believe that the true DP acid test is reading Grant Morrison's "Doom Patrol" issue #50. If you like it (and I myself *love* it), then DP is definitely your cup of tea. If not, avoid. And the original Silver Age Doom Patrol, despite some dated aspects (in the 21st Century, Rita Farr would give Steve Dayton a swift kick in the nads and get a restraining order,) has certain elements which still hold up, notably the ahead-of-her-time anti-heroine Madame Rouge (as I described her to a friend recently, she's the best not-quite-good, not-quite-evil, tres chic Euro-chick, like, ever!!)

Re: Teen Titans, I'm glad we are of like minds on the execrable Geoff Johns era. For all the talk that he takes too much flak, I would counter that he's *still* given too much slack (in fairness, though I *hate* being fair to that creepy-looking, poker-faced, beady-eyed baldy, he seems to have finally realized that he's never going to get any better as a writer, and he's now better suited to act as a mentor/facilitator for other DC writers.) And I also agree with you that the Titans have more name-brand appeal than the Legion, thanks mainly to the cartoon (which I actually didn't like that much, but that's neither here not there.)

Lastly, I have to add that even though I don't think there's been a half-decent Titans issue since Eduardo Barreto left in 1988, I *do* absolutely *adore* Peter David & Todd Nauck's "Young Justice" run. That run, to me, should be the template for the next incarnation of the Legion, and, if necessary, I will defend it until I'm blue in the face.

I'll definitley look for Mercury and Chiggers, though I generally avoid comic adaptions of other media, so I'll give that a pass, soz

I'm sorry, but "Bitch Planet"... ugh. I swear, that series is aimed at incredibly sheltered women who have just discovered feminism. I remember really wanting to like it too

Also, I tok am looking forward to Hawkeye. Kate is one of my favourite characters, so i'm definitely buying it. But some of the solicitation alone has me worried Thompson is gonna keep trying to sound like a 20-something hipster.

Oh, I've read Morrison's DP. I read the first arc and a bit after that. The story ideas are cool, and the characters are interesting, but it was just that bit too crazy for me without much to ground it aside from Cliff. My sister read Way's DP and was confused af about the bricks and Danny and the ending. I had to explain some of it to her, but she really enjoyed it.

Wow... so... if I get this right... you don't like Geoff Johns lol. I'm not the biggest fan of his either, but I think, overall he's done more good than bad. But yeah, his Teen Titans was the worst... then Henderson happened... then Lobdell happened. Honestly, Percy would need to TRY to suck to beat his predecessors.

I've read a few issues of YJ and liked it, and it really works as a more fun version of Teen Titans. YJ in space would work for the ReLegion's early stories, I feel.

Not a problem. And I'm glad to hear you're going to give the two which are cut from whole cloth a chance.




Hmmm. Good point. Even though I came around to becoming a fan in the long run, I actually have kind of a checkered history with the Doom Patrol. For many years, the only Morrison Era issues available in trade were the first few ("Crawling from the Wreckage"), and I didn't like it at all on my first read, back around '93 or '94, IIRC, for more or less the same reason you describe. And then Morrison's horrible "back to basics" JLA run (sort of the evil flipside of his DP, I guess) made me avoid anything he wrote like the plague. Eventually, after I returned to comics around the beginning of '05, I was sufficiently intrigued by 7 Soldiers to give it a go, and I actually enjoyed a substantial portion of it. It wasn't too long after that that the rest of his DP run was finally collected. I didn't dislike it as much as I had the early issues back in the day, but I still found it too self-conscious. Really, I didn't start to see where Morrison is coming from until I read his very good memoir-cum-history-of-superhero-comics prose book Supergods, and I finally decided that he could definitely walk the walk *and* talk the talk after the legal issues involving Flex Mentallo were settled and it was collected (I *love* that mini-series, and TBH, I doubt he's ever going to scale those heights again.) So when I finally gave his DP run a third chance, third time was indeed the charm. I still think issue 50 works equally well as either a standalone or as the cornerstone of the whole saga, and that everyone should read that one at least once.



Glad to hear that. I always like it when a genre comic manages to show that being challenging and being fun are not mutually exclusive.



Tee hee. But I kid Johns -- NOT!!!! I've never met him, but I get this weird vibe off of him, like he reminds me of a villain from one of those cheesy old 90s TV movies about a young woman falling for an apple-pie-kinda-guy who turns out to be a murderous psycho.



Um...let me count the ways:

Created Courtney Ryan -- Good at first, bad in the long run.

Day of Judgment -- Generic event storyline, although I came around long-after-the-fact to liking Hal as the Spectre after I read back issues of his guest appearances in Peter David's Supergirl & Young Justice. Now I wish Hal had stayed the Spectre.

Stars & S.T.R.I.P.E. -- Cute on the surface, creepy underneath.

Flash -- Overrated, ugly, horrible. The scene where we're supposed to cheer for the angry mob as they're about to tear Blacksmith to pieces still makes my skin crawl just thinking about it.

JSA -- David Goyer may be a loudmouth jerk, but he *totally* carried Johns during the time those two co-wrote JSA, and once Goyer left, its quality spiraled into glorified toilet paper.

Hawkman -- I'll admit I gave up on it too early to give a fair judgment. Plus, the only time I've ever liked the Hawk-folks was Timothy Truman's "Hawkworld" mini-series. Even though Truman co-plotted most of the ongoing series, I still didn't like it.

Teen Titans -- I love Mike McKone's art on just about everything he's done, so I initially gave this one a thumbs-up for the first 20 or so issues. Then, years later, I cracked open the first TT trade for the first time in yonks, and as soon as Deathstroke blew off Bart's kneecap, I thought, "F*ck this!" and got rid of all my Johns TT trades.

JLA Identity Crisis aftermath arc -- Chris Batista's lovely art was enough at the time to fool me (see also Mike McKone, above) into thinking it was anything more than by-the-numbers superhero-team bickering, but now I can see it wasn't.

Green Lantern Rebirth & Green Lantern Corps Recharge -- Pretty much the only Johns stories I can still re-read today. And then more out of sentimental value than anything, because this was right around the time I got back into comics.

Green Lantern ongoing -- Again, as with early JSA, Johns pulled it off for a while because someone else was carrying him, in this case then-editor Peter Tomasi. Enjoyed the Sinestro Corps War event thoroughly at the time, so much so that it even inspired two of my fanfics (see my posts in Kappa Kid's Green Lantern fanfic thread in Bits), but after that, it got worse and worse until I had to drop it right around "Blackest Night" (more on that abomination shortly.)

Infinite Crisis -- When even the artistic likes of Phil Jimenez, George Perez, and Jerry Ordway can't keep a suck-tastic event storyline afloat, something has gone *seriously* wrong. *The* sum total of everything that I came to hate about DiDio Era DC, especially the whole hypocritical "Grim and gritty is wrong, wrong, *wrong* -- but lookee over here, isn't Pantha's decapitation just a *gas* and a *laugh-and-a-half*?" bull-nass. Loses even more points for being jerry-rigged entirely out of spare parts left over from CoIE.

Blackest Night -- Even *worse* than IC. How is that even possible? Well, alls you gotta do is take a thin, simplistic zombie-movie plot originally intended only for the GL franchise and stretch it out beyond the breaking point, then you let your meanstreak and your bloodthirst run riot like never before. And to add insult to injury, you shove Aquaman's loathsome ex-partner down or throats, adding insult to injury by making her *even more* loathsome than before. This is where I finally gave up on Johns as a writer.

Over to you, Fuzzy Barbarian.



That does my heart good. YJ is criminally underrated, and I hope against hope that my theory about DiDio getting sh*t-canned by Warners once his contract runs out is true, because I believe *he* is the reason why Peter David has been persona non grata at DC since back when both YJ and Supergirl were cancelled.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one: DC just posted 21 of the top 25 comics in August, including 10 selling more than 100K, catapulting the entire industry to its best month in YEARS, solely based on DC's performance. I imagine Lee and Didio are popping a lot of champagne corks these days.

Uh...Dave, that only happened *after* DiDio quietly took a backseat to Johns in both the creative direction and the promotion of the books. I wouldn't underestimate the things that could be inferred from that.

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

I've been meaning to give Supergods a read, but I be broke and my local libraries aren't great. Wonder if one of the unis has it in stock?

I think Way's DP works for new readers better than Morrison's because Casey grounds it, while not feeling flat or out of place. Way's DP is just slightly more compelling than Morrison's ahile being more on-the-nose and less abstract and I think it kinda needed to be, being the premier Young Animal book and all. My sister always wants to get into Morrison stuff, but his complete lack of hand holding just isn't welcoming, and she can read Tim Seeley and Tom King and enjoy them! I think it's that Way, Seeley and King can write stories where not understanding everything doesn't stop you from enjoying the comic, whereas you'll enjoy a Morrison comic much more than the ones by those guys... ONLY if you understand everything. If not, there's not as much there for you than if you read those guys and didn't understand everything.

I hear good things about Flex Mentallo, but I forget to look into getting into it EVERY. TIME. I'm leaving a tab of it open this time


Wow... I'm just picturing you repeatedly kicking Johns in the balls rn . I think he looks fine, like a sleepier version of a guy I'd see walkjng his dog. Anyway, with Johns, I'm gonna start him at 0 and -1 for every bad and +1 for every good.

Stargirl - She's the best representation of youth I've ever seen on an adult team (take notes, MARK WAID) and I think is a fun character who started out flawed but loveable. +1

Day of Vengeance - haven't read it, but I liked Hal as the Spectre. +0

JSA - I'm with you in that I think Goyer's contribution is criminally overlooked, though the guy is a prick, so I get why. But I don't think quality declined when he left. The series was always uneven, but I think Johns did a good job carrying on and told some great stories. Admittedly, i'm pretty bias since JSA was one of, if not THE first big ongoings i read from beginning to end when I first got into comics. +1

Hawkman - I've only read the first issue, and I liked it, but the only Hawkperson I've ever cared about is Kendra Saunders, and while she was in this, Hawkman is just... the guy does NOT have a good rep. Still, by all accojnts this is THE best Hawkman run, so i'll give it +0.5

Flash (Wally) - I liked it. It was nowhere near as good as Waid's, but it moved Wally's life forward and made good use of the Flash mythos. It had its flaws -- like how Wally felt like a supporting character in his own series at times, Johns moving him closer in line with Barry and Wally having a secret ID again -- but the stories were good. Also, Hunter Zolomon was really interesting and the perfect villain for Wally, given his motovations and powerset. More than any other archnemesis, this was a villain only Wally could beat. But Johns couldn't help himself by retconning that some Rogues didn't REALLY go straight, but were brainwashed into it. It's not THAT bad, since it's left ambigious as to which villains ACTUALLY were brainwashed, but it still bugs me. +1

Identity Crisis aftermath - Never heard of it tbh, but I'll take your word for it. -1

GL Rebirth - I don't think this holds up. It's an OKAY story if you think of it as one big retcon and as setup for stories dowb the line, but even then there are things that just suck. +0

GL Recharge - Good story, some forced retcons (Arisia's death coma thing) but it had a great energy to it and did a good job setting the stage for future stories. +1

Green Lantern - REALLY uneven and dragged out. Earlier issues were very good and actually made Hal likeable, but it kinda peaked at Sinestro Corps war. It had some decent things, like the Laira arc and Red Lantern introduction, but it also went on way longer than it needed to and should've ended at Blackest Night, but just. Kept. Going. Also, I don't think Johns thought out the emotional spectrum, because willpower is not an emotion and every corps ring seems to be powered by the user's willpower to a degree. Still, it revitalised the franchise in a big way and allowed for cool spin-offs. +0

Infinite Crisis - I really flawed but enjoyable story to me. The hypocrisy was annoying and ironic, the restoration of the Multiverse was unecessary, it served as a minor reboot for the sake of retconning in things Johns wanted for no reason, Wonder Woman is holier than thou (because Johns can only write her like that or as a berserker), Superboy's death was pointless, and the dialogue -- ESPECIALLY the Supsrboys' sucked. But it had good Batman moments, Earth-2 Superman got a beautiful ending, it was epic while still being followable, and all the endings work. +0

Superman and the LoSH - Good Superman story, decent Legion one. Cool ideas and moments, and good way to introduce people to the Legion +1

Final Crisis: L3W - good, if only as a long retcon. In HINDSIGHT it was probs a bad move, but it was kinda good for what it was, and FELT epic. +0

Blackest Night - not a fan. Decent premise with room for character development, but it devolved into dumb stuff and retcons. It was SUPPOSED to be a commentary on the nature of death in comics... and just didn't work, because Nekron's plan was dumb. And Nekron was dumb. And Black Hand is dumb. And Barry is not a messenger of hope ffs, but I guess Superman was a Black Lantern and unavailable. Works as dumb schlock, hilarious when it wants to be something else. -1

Brightest Day - Aside from the Swamp Thing thing (lol), not that bad, not that good either. Liked Dove and Deadman together though, and the new Aqualad was cool. +0

Flash Rebirth - Trash. Absolute trash. A garbage fire. The comic equivalent of that giant planet of trash in Futurama. Sucks the life out of any comic next to it. It's a full series of shilling for Barry Allen with bs logic, introduced the "it was all a part of my plan!!111!1!!!" Version of Eobard Thawne ("Negative Speed Force" is the stupidest thing I've ever seen from both a Flash comic AND Johns), had no clue what to do with Wally, seems to actively hate the Flash legacy, and was the first in a long line of attempts to give Barry something resembling a personality and failing. The guy IS the Silver Age incarnate... so Johns Dark Ages him, making me wonder why he ever liked Barry. The only good thing was Irey becoming Impulse and Jesse Chambers ditching the Liberty Belle name and costume for Jesse Quick (though that costume also sucked (she literally looks like she's about to do the dishes)). -1, and if I could, -1000

Flash (Barry) - Furthers the crap version of Thawne, was aimless and just leading up to crap. More shillibg for Barry. Everything wrong with Rebirth but more of it. -1

Flashpoint - trash. When you reboot a universe, maybe try to pay tribute to it. Instead we got a grimdark piece of crap that had such a crap message it was hilarious (it's okay for Thawne to fuck with time, but Barry doing it to UNDO what Thawne did? Wrong). It was just a bad story that I swear is in the category of "non-comic readers haven't read it, but have heard about it and it has enough "kewl" elements to be considered good by thsmem". -1

Aquaman - modernised the character well. Yeah, Peter David made him cool too, but Johns did it in a more nuanced way that doesn't feel dated like David's (and I say that as a huge Peter David fan)+1

Justice League - Good, if unsure of itself at first. First arc was dumb but works as an origin story, if an overly long one. Second one was pointess. Third was good, but was a crossover with Aquaman. The rest felt like it had more of a point, though it also felt a bit uneven. +1

Batman: Earth One - Only read first vol., and that was ages ago, but it was NOT memorable and I think this is what started the "edgy Alfred" thing that's now also in Gotham, and I hate that. The one really notable good scene is Bruce being inspired by samurai armour with a kabuto helmet as opposed to a bat crashing through his window. Unique idea, works in context. Still, kinda weak. -1

So yeah, I think Johns comes out ahead.



Now, DIDIO... why does he have his position again? I rag on Joe Quesada a lot... A LOT, but he did oversee the Marvel Knights line which produced some very acclaimed stories, and having recently read NYX, he's a decent writer. And I THINK he had some involvement in the MAX line? Either way, he's a logical choice. DiDio... I only know about his work AFTER he got promoted, and it all sucks.

Regarding Rebirth, who WAS the main guy in charge of that? Johns was the guy who spoke about it most, but was that just to avoid the negative publicity that would come with having DiDio do it? I mean, Johns had his plate full around this time, so... Idno.

Just from chats with different people who care about DC's structure, quite a few seem to want Peter J. Tomasi to take up DiDio's position. I really like Tomasi as a writer and I think he's a good editor, but I don't have any thoughts on that.

LOL Maybe I should make that my new signature (though I'm also still considering Thoth's compare & contrast of TMK and Tom King.) [/quote]



I'm keeping my fingers crossed that one of the unis does turn out to have it. It's an extremely rewarding read (although it does require a little patience early on, as Morrison is on well-trod Golden Age History territory there, but I think that even then, he puts his own engaging spin on it.) I really, *really* hope that Morrison writes more non-fiction prose in the years to come. And it just occurred to me that perhaps Morrison is to superhero comics what Elvis Costello is to pop music -- they're both better at writing about, and discussing, them than at actually creating them (and if that sounds like a backhanded compliment to the hardcore Morrison and/or Costello fans, be assured it wasn't meant that way.)



YAY! Glad to hear that! Like Supergods, it requires some patience and close attention, but is a very rewarding read.



I'd like to get my licks in for Blackest Night alone, and particularly the sequence with Evil Ralph & Evil Sue killing Kendra. (Just kidding, LW admins and my fellow LW mods, JUST KIDDING!! I'm a lover, not a fighter.)



I'll concede that maybe was just so bitter about the awfulness of her creator's last several JSA arcs that I missed something. But a warning: Don't hold your breath on the possibility of me re-reading them.



Yay! Who knows, maybe that's how Hal will end up again it the long run (he's certainly better suited for the gig than that minor character from the Bat-verse with an ugly beard and a first name that sounds like a candy bar.)



I know all about sentimental value for gateway comics, so I won't counter anything you said there. And I'm glad we at least agree on Goyer (in both the good and the bad about him.)



*J'adore* Kendra Saunders, she was my favorite JSA member!! In fact, as I was typing that last sentence, it occurred to me that perhaps that's why I grew to dislike Stargirl, because I felt she hogged panels in which I'd rather have seen Kendra.

*Trust me* when I tell you that the Truman/Alcatena/Parsons Hawkworld mini-series is an awesomely good read, except possibly for the ending, which sets up the ongoing a bit too blatantly. And, like I said before, the ongoing has its fans, as well as the writing pedigree of John Ostrander (and Truman as co-plotter for parts of the run), but I've never found it to be one of Ostrander's top-drawer gigs (still *much better* than his Firestorm or Martian Manhunter, though.)



Um...what about the elephant in the room, Blacksmith's gruesome (albeit left-to-the-imagination) fate? I wouldn't wish something like that on my worst enemy, let alone a one-shot villainess. And I also have an *unbelievable* amount of dislike for the very concept of mob rule, so Johns loses a lot of points with me for glorifying and romanticizing it.



Agreed 100%, with only the caveat that co-writer Dave Gibbons may very well have carried Johns on this mini-series. I loved Gibbons' solo writing on the first year-and-a-half of the GLC ongoing, and felt it went doing the toilet after he left.



I'm glad we at least partially agree on IC's most salient flaw, the hypocrisy of the way the violence was presented (and, later, exploited further over the next several years), but overall I think you're giving it too much slack. To each their own, though, I still respect your opinion.



Here, too, I beg to differ. The whole Retroboot was a reprehensible, lazy, and cheap undertaking from the very start, IMO, cynically designed to appeal to aging readers who can't let go of the Legion's supposed peaks of its past. If the Retroboot's immediate predecessor, the Threeboot, hadn't been such a dog's breakfast, I would never have even looked at this out of curiosity.



See above, only a million times more so, due to its general ham-fistedness, its mean-spiritedness, its gratuitous violence, and S*p*rb*y Pr*me.



I only read the first issue, but, like I said in my previous post, it was the final straw for me regarding Johns' writing. Kendra's death added considerable insult to injury.



Indeed, especially on the "leading up to crap" front. I still remember the ever-perceptive Cobalt Kid theorizing in the Gym'll's forum that Johns was setting up the death of the Evan McCulloch Mirror Master and the resurrection of the Sam Scudder Mirror Master. I would have gone *ballistic* if that had happened, because Evan is one of my favorite love-to-hate-that-bastard-villains *ever*, and one of Morrison's few cut-from-whole-cloth contributions to the DCU to deservedly endure.



Hang. On. A. @$##@$%%ing. Minute. PAD's Aquaman run is dated?? And Johns' run is better, and not dated??? Sorry, and it's nothing personal (just ask the Legion Worlders who've known me for years) but here I have to admit I *am* a bit cross right now (it'll pass quickly.) I re-read PAD's run a few years ago, and everything that might have even *seemed* in the 90s like it was going to date quickly was, in retrospect, done with *genuine conviction, subversive wit, and irony* (Exhibit A: Garth wielding an enormous Crypto-Image gun, only for it to misfire and make the situation even worse. Effin' brilliant!!) As for Johns' Aquaman, I can succinctly sum up my feelings for it with a quick food analogy: It had the shelf-life of an already-ripening banana, and it smelled even worse. (And, come to think about it, that statement applies to almost all of Johns' writing, IMHO.)




I doubt we'll ever know the full truth, but I'm sticking to my aforementioned theory. And please correct me if I've misunderstood what you wrote, but I thought that, by that time, Johns had phased himself out of *all* his comic book writing gigs, so how could his plate have been full?



I'd *love* to see Tomasi get a promotion to DC executive. He's not only a great editor in his own right, he also learned from the best, having paid his dues as Dan Raspler's assistant. Gods, I miss Raspler, even though it's 12 years on since DC sh*t-canned him (12 of the worst years of most DC fans' lives, I'd muse.)

Yay, my uni has it! Just at the campus furthest away from me, so I'll have to put in an order. Though I need to check how borrowing from my uni library works, since I'm about to finish for the semester.




Yeah... I swear, when Johns writes Legacy characters, he does it well... then usurps that character with a predecessor, making me feel like he's playing a long game to do that with everyone... which the New 52 kinda did, though he was apparently against it. But Kendra's death really pissed me off, and I hate that she came back as SHIERA because... Silver Age boners, I guess.



HAHAHAHA!!!! Oh... yeah. I just thought it was odd they'd make so prominent a charcater whose last name is Allen. But yeah, "Crispus"? That's... *snort* a name




Oh, it wasn't really my gateway comic (that's reserved for Runaways and New X-Men - Academy X), but it WAS a big intro for me into JSA.




I don't know, it didn't really seem that bad to me. It's a typical "villain gets their comeuppance from the people" kind of thing, which admittedly is extremely dated, but Johns was building up Keystone as the "working" city.

I think you might be misremembering. I just flipped through my omnibus, and Goldface just tells the mob to fight, she mocks them, they corner her on a bridge, she tries to rip the bridge down, Wally stops her and throws her onto a barge. Plus, she wasn't really a one-shot villain, since she was behind the scenes a lot.




I kinda liked the idea behind the Retroboot... but yeah, it was milking the crap out of nostalgia. But that specific Legion worked well for the story Johns was telling, and had potential.



I think PAD's Aquaman is dated. Even if it defied 90s conventions, it still made use of a few, and I just don't like a lot of the stories. While Johns' is more epic but also always emotionally charged. Plus Johns refined then Aquaman mythos in a good way, ignoring Garth aside. But to each their own.




He was doing TV and in the early stages of movie work.



I... have never heard of Raspler, though my knowledge of the inner workings of DC is pretty limited, especially compared to my Marvel knowledge (which admittedly is also limited). Though 2004 is about when DC mostly started to go downhill, though that may be a testament to DiDio's suckitude more than anything.

I'm not sure how Tomasi would do. I like his Batman stuff, and his experience as Batman editor shows in his PERFECT understanding of the characters and the mythos. And I've heard his Superman run has been VERY good, though I think some of that is Superman coming out of an era of overall suckiness and readers getting quality-whiplash.

Awesome!! And I think I should add that it not only changed my opinions on a lot (not all) of Morrison's previous works, but also left me with a generally more positive outlook on life. And, funnily enough, the improvement in my outlook also had a generous contribution, right around that same time, from reading the entirety of Promethea, which was, of course, written by Morrison's nemesis-of-sorts, Alan Moore (and, if you haven't read it already, I highly recommend doing a web search for Moore's lengthy but brutally funny final word on their infamous feud-of-sorts.)



Oh, Gods, I hadn't thought of the Allen thing. LOL

And I can just imagine the cheesy advertisement for the hypothetical "Crispus Bar" -- "Enjoy the wondrously delicious crunch of a Crispus."




Again, I am admittedly biased with a particularly negative feeling towards the mob mentality. And while I don't see myself as qualified to comment with any real depth on class warfare -- my own class roots are American lower-middle on my Mom's side, and Latin American bourgeois on my Dad's -- I can't deny that I find the portrayal of "workers" readily giving in to the mob mentality as being patronizing, shallow, and stereotypical on Johns' part (I don't know anything about Johns' backstory other than his being born and raised near Detroit, but I wouldn't be surprised if Johns were some kind of Real Life version of Preboot Ultra Boy, the archetypal middle-class dork getting caught up way too deep in his condescending "street-kid" pose.)



That's actually quite possible. It's been almost ten years since I read that particular Flash trade...but I wouldn't re-read it if someone paid me to, so I guess I'll have to remain blissfully ignorant.



Fair enough, then, but I still insist that DiDio has been secretly (and deservedly) marginalized by Warners, whether anyone at DC or Warners ever admits it or not.



As it happens, one of my many writing ambitions is to do a non-fiction prose book that would be a sequel-of-sorts to Gerard Jones's "Men of Tomorrow." That book focused mainly on the origins of the comics industry, then on the Golden Age and the Silver Age, more or less wrapping up with DC's fateful purchase by late-20th-Century tycoon Steve Ross, which eventually segued into ownership by Warners; the rest is an extended epilogue. Anyhow, it's a very good book, and mine would focus on the next two or three ages, using as bookends Jenette Kahn's joining DC's executive board in 1976 at the start, and her quitting DC in 2002 at the end. So, yeah, I believe that Raspler's firing circa 2004 had to have had something to do with DiDio and his cronies.



Well, I just think he did some admirable stuff as an editor: the aforementioned Green Lantern stuff may have its iffy aspects in hindsight, but it definitely had its moments, and it sure paid off in strictly $ renumerative $ terms. He certainly did the best he could editing Batman and JSA under the circumstances. And finally, Tomasi did what I feel was a creditable job of the challenging task of stepping into the late, great Archie Goodwin's shoes to take over the editing of Starman for its final 32 or so issues; now, I have to stress that I'm not one of James Robinson's Kool-Aid-drinking acolytes who regard Starman as their sacred text (just kidding, Starman fans), but most of my problems with that series apply to the whole of the run, which for me only proves how seamless the transition from Goodwin to Tomasi was, and how the good things about Starman stayed good more-or-less throughout. IMO, of course.

I've espoused before on these boards that I think Johns needs a good editor to reign in his baser tendencies, which is why his earlier work appeals to me a lot more than IC-era and later work where his penchant for gratuitous violence becomes more pronounced.

One thing I always like to point out about Johns and Didio (and Lee): The times I've met them at conventions they've been not only super-nice, but super-passionate about DC. Now there's a lot about their directions and choices I've vehemently disagreed with, but they aren't secretly mustache-twirling villains, and I think they are trying their best.

Regarding Goyer, I actually think Johns improved after he left, and that JSA was a better book up until around IC (see above about his baser tendencies, although JSA wasn't as effected as other properties).

I`ll always remember the difference between the two was highlighted in the response to fan criticism over issue 39 (The Power Girl solo issue with villain D-Bomb). Goyer responded by basically saying ``you didn`t get it, and it`s not my fault``, and John`s said ``Sorry we blew it, we`ll try harder next time``.

Yeah, well, I'm still not convinced. I think what they really are is good actors.

But you go right on believing whatever you want to believe.