Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion Rebirth Speculation

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Guesses on the writer?

For the love of God not Jim Lee

Please have it be Hope Larson!

I'd even settle for Tom King.

But Dan Jurgens has ties to the Levitz Mark 2 era and the end of the Postboot era, albeit only as a penciler. Things is, I think Jurgens is a horrible writer -- sometimes he has good ideas, but he almost never pulls them off in the execution.

And it goes without saying that I'm glad it won't be J*nth*n H*ckm*n.

those young turks, Levitz and Giffen look eager for a shot, going by that picture. I say let them have a go!

As if they didn't embarrass themselves enough on the Retroboot. :rolleyes:

HOPE LARSON! HOPE LARSON! HOPE LARSON!

TOM KING! TOM KING! TOM KING!

Haven't been around in a while, what with the Legion drought

I just want it given to King already. Omega Men was a huge
Success (critically and in trade, at least, ESPECIALLY in trade), he's the obvious choice. He can write space operas with complex morality, and revamp old abandoned concepts. He's also good at using just enough DC mythos for his work to have ties to the universe. He's also good at characterisation and writkng complex, intriguing characters. My one worry is if he can handle a large cast and rotate characters well.

The rest:
DiDio - not a good writer, so let's just ignore him.

Larson - her Batgirl does a good job romanticising youthful waywardness, but isn't good at much else. But maybe she can plot better with the Legion, since an emphasis on youthful adventures would help draw in readers.

Tynion - extremely hit-or-miss and has a penchant for pet characters and inevitably puts an uber genius teen hacker in everything, so please no. He also isn't great with big casts or story pacing. Or not being predictable.

Levitz - I think he should move on. I think his time is past and I he's just out of ideas. Plus, he has never been good with characterisation. A lot of his characters come off really, really flat.

Giffen - overwrites and thinks he's way funnier than he actually is. Not sure about his plotting though. But after JL3000 and what he did to the Legion, nope.

Jurgens - generally good. Good at humanising characters in cool scenarios (Booster Gold, Lois & Clark)

Paquette - writing? I would NOT hand the Legion over to an unproven writer. They need the surest fire hit they can get.

While I'm upset Hickman's not writing, and the lack of star power, King is a huge up and comer (he literally just won the Harvey Award for Best New Talent, and has a good rep and is developing a following) and I can see him doing Legion once his Vision run wraps up over at Marvel.

Jurgens probably gonna write their return and co-write the first few issues with whoever is the main writer.

Welcome back, Fuzzy Barbarian.

Re: King, I will now definitely have to borrow the Omega Men trade from the library. Thanks.

Re: Larson, I think that the hypothetical emphasis on youthful adventures you describe is crucial to reinvigorating the Legion.

Re: Jurgens, I would be genuinely curious to know what you like about Booster Gold. I will admit that I hate him more than just about any DC hero introduced in the last 30 years, but I always enjoy getting a fresh perspective on such things.

Thanks for the summary Fuzzy! It's really helpful as I don't recognise half of them.

Definitely check out Omega Men! It was DC's lowest selling ongoing when published but is now their best selling trade, so that says a lot

I think King can write youthful adventure too, he just hasn't really been able to that much with his past work. Even then, Grayson had the Skullgirls, and they were really fun when they appeared.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the intriguing chaaxters he writes dtill never lose their humanity. Also, his plots are really good.

I'm still worried about sales for Legion, since none of these guys, aside from MAYBE King, is a big name at the moment. Heck, DiDio would probably lose sales just because of his name xD

With Booster Gold, I need to make it perfectly clear that I only like him as written in his most recent solo series. I haven't reeally read it aside from certain scenes and some scans, but I am NOT a fan of the Giffen/DeMatteis JLI run. Like, at all. But in his most recent solo series, Booster is reinvented as a kind of protector of the timestream, who fights those who would abuse time travel (wish be was there to stop Barry Allen from screwing everything up, but whatevs). And to make sure he's not killed in his crib, he has to keep pretending that he's a gold digging idiot, so it's a noble, no-recognition job. And he brings his typical, more flawed and relatable personality to the job, like not understanding that some things NEED to happen, so he tries his best to stop horriblr things from happening. Helps that his crappier personality traits were kinda gone by this point after Ted Kord died.

Random aside: I mistyped DiDio as 'DiDik' and I pondered whether or not to fix itm, as that might be more accurate ;D

I actually did read the trades collecting the first dozen issues of that Booster Gold solo series. The most polite way I can put it is that my reaction was the polar opposite of yours.

No worries, though. I respect your opinion. One of my favorite things about Legion World is the sheer diversity of opinions on comic books.

And I'm getting more and more excited about that Omega Men trade by the hour. Thanks again for the recommendation.

I recall seeing the killing of a hostage in the promo for it. I thought they'd take a lot of flak for that. Even if it was a fairly obvious set up.




I quite liked some of the original Jurgens Booster Gold set up. He's a super hero, with an eye for the bottom line. The book didn't really go far into it. But there is loads of potential conflicts for a corporate hero (I think Gold got his own company early on to avoid all that).

Taking it further, having a character whose natural instinct isn't as heroic as some of his peers is also interesting. There are plenty of degrees there, and it doesn't make him a bad person. Sometimes he has to make the correct choice, rather than throwing himself into it.

Depending on how far you take it, reader empathy may be an issue. See Jack Frost in the Invisibles for an example where you didn't really care what happened to him, or the lead character in something like Wanted (who is even worse)



I'm sure I picked up a few issues of DiDio's OMAC that he did with Giffen. My only earlier read of DiDio was an Outsiders comic. It rates as one of the poorest written comics I own.

But there, his innately wonky ear for dialogue works as a Kirby pastiche (and Kirby's dialogue is odd in it's own way). Giffen's Kirby-lite homage made it visually fourth world too. Fun in a way I'm not sure was at all intended for a few issues at least.

Very well said, Thoth. Jack Frost did not bother me as much as he appears to have bothered you (and I won't even get into Wanted Wesley, suffice it to say that it's no secret at Legion World how I feel about his creator) but there's just...*something*...about Booster that really makes my blood boil. Yours and Fuzzy Barbarian's posts have got me ruminating over just what that *something* is, and I always appreciate that kind of feedback. (Not that it's going to get me to re-read stories with Booster in them, but, y'know, baby steps.)

And as for the Omega Men's "killing" of a certain character, it's starting to look to me in hindsight like the end of DC's 2003-2015 "Dark Ages," and the beginning of this ongoing evolution under the Rebirth banner.

I'm not sure why it never blew up. The character has a sizeable fanbase as well. And not as in a cult classic character like the Runaways, or even a B-lister like Cable or something. Plus the political aspects. It kind of got flak from fans of the character, and is actually a reason I really didn't want to read Omega Men when it was coming out monthly (I got the first two issues based on really good word of mouth from some hipster comic readers I know), and more than a few people also had that train of thought.

But Tom King used to BE in a counter-terrorist role within the CIA. I think that made lots of people have faith that he wasn't doing it purely for shock value. And that's the thing: that preview (it was when DC was giving 4-8 page previews of DC You books in Convergence tie-ins) painted a very, very grey world. And it never really makes it clear whether the Omega Men were supposed to be heroes or villains. It was established very, very early on as a morally complex story, and I think that helped.

As mentioned, I was really, really against the series when it started, but I'm glad to say I was wrong about it. And a lot of people seem to be in the same boat, given that the trade is doing so well. It's good to see a book that was destroyed as a monthly title make a huge comeback once it's finished and in trade.

Speaking of accidentally making a character unsympathetic, that was obviously an uphill battle with Omega Men. But King actually managed it very, very well. And he didn't resort to some last-minute "they ahd a bad life" thing. He's pretty good at making characters who do bad things very sympathetic. His work on The Vision was really good in that regard as well. Booster Gold managed to stay human to me, and I think that's really important for the kind of character who doesn't get recognition or glory. Because without them being flawed, this kind of story just wouldn't work. We know the hero will do their duty and make the sacrifice of their reputation, because they're just so good and awesome! It's the OPPOSITE of the flawed character being unsympathetic, and it's almost as bad (the character you're talkinga bout sounds to me like a Garth Ennis character).

Oh, and since I just started gushing, here's a line from Omega Men that stuck with me:
"When you first came to us, you called yourself -- you called the Citadel -- the Alpha Empire. You said you were kind. You said you would teach us to be kind. And we embraced you, our brothers from Alpha. We invited you into our homes. We shared our food. Our hopes. Our miseries. And you... you... Can I--How many... bodies--how many bodies does it take to teach us to be kind?!"

Even though I have sworn off monthly comics forever (thank you DCFU), Tom King and the Legion is the only writer/property combination (other than perhaps Grant Morrison and the Legion) that would get me to break that vow. I have heard such good things about his 'Omega Men' and 'Vision' series'.

Tom King's Vision series is nothing short of phenomenal right now, and his Batman is a highlight of Rebirth. I'd love him on anything DC does, but especially my favorite series, the LSH.

I'll also add that Hope Larson is largely unknown to me, but from what I've seen so far on Batgirl, she's impressed the hell out of me.

Giffen, Levitz, Jurgens: no.

Man, King on LSH would be a dream. Just let him take it in any direction he likes.

If king is the one that wrote Grayson...I gotta say "meh".

Haven't read Larson's Batgirl. Hated that they were turning her into some hipster hero.

I think Levitz is a great writer, but with legion there needs to be a plotter or someone to help him keep the flowchart straight. But then it comes down to Giffen. No thanks.

This one goes out to Fuzzy Barbarian and everyone else who is intrigued by the possibility of Tom King writing the Legion:

A copy of the Omega Men trade has been borrowed by yours truly, and is currently awaiting to be opened and read. Will review it for sure upon completion.

I has also gotten mah paws on the book. The shop gave me a discount! A discount! Not on that, but on something else I bought. But I'm pretending I got Omega Men cheap in case I don't like it.

Excellent, Thoth. And I like the way you rationalized the discount, I would have done it the same way.

I'm now exactly halfway through the trade, and while the jury's still out, I can confirm that, so far, the good outweighs the not-so-good for me.

Wha?! I've not even started. I'm glad I didn't go with the "Last One To Review Omega Men Herds Jovian Attack Squid!" post.

... in the squid tank with a shovel...thoth lad

All right, now that Thoth and I have both read and reviewed Tom King's "Omega Men" (as can be seen by clicking the link below)

http://www.legionworld.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=909154#Post909154

and now that I've had some time to ruminate on what the pros and cons of the prospect of King getting the Legion gig are, I'm ready to share.

First off, I have to address what may be the biggest of the cons: That Damn Nine-Panel Grid. It's blatantly derivative of the TMK Legion -- which was already a second-hand approach, as TMK had shamelessly cribbed it from "Watchmen" -- and as such, I think it's so "on-the-nose" that it's painful. This has nothing to do with my personal dislike of the TMK Legion (which I shall not elaborate on, because if you're not already familiar with why I feel the way I feel about it, I've done tons of posts in these forums over the years criticizing it to the best of my ability.) What it does have everything to do with is that King is a talented, innovative writer who has already found a distinct voice all his own, and it does him no favors whatsoever to include such a disruptive, distracting rehash of a 30-year-old stylistic device that had already been cheapened through bad imitations before the 80s had even ended. Quite, simply, the Legion. Needs. To. Effing. Move. On. As in, no more culty in-jokes or attachments to past runs, no matter how beloved they are of the generation that bought the Legion in its biggest numbers, and no matter how much acclaim and cult fervor they have acquired in retrospect.

If King reminds me of any previous Legion writers, it would have to be DnA when their run was only slightly past its prime, as in: Not quite as good as the double whammy of "Legion of the Damned/Legion Lost", about equally as good as "Legion Worlds," and nowhere near as bad as "The Legion" from issue 3 on. Like what I regard as the better parts of DnA's run, King's admittedly dark-leaning sensibilities feel genuine, sincere, organic, and fully possessing the courage of his convictions. Also like DnA, and not at all in a good way, is my feeling that as impressive as King's "Omega Men" is, it doesn't quite pull off the necessary follow-through in its second half, IMHO. This could lead to problems in an ongoing series, just as it did for DnA's Legion run.

Then, too, I have not read any of King's other work, but from doing some quick research, it doesn't appear like he has very much, if any, experience at writing adolescents. That is not good, because the ecstasies and agonies of adolescence have, in my opinion, historically been the very lifeblood of the Legion at its best, and it's one of the main reasons why I've come around to having such admiration for the Pre-DnA Postboot Legion, even at its very worst (okay, maybe not at the rock-bottom points of Emerald Vi and Bizarro Legion, but I digress.)

I've also come to believe that the exact point where the Preboot Legion began to its long, slow, but steady trip downhill was when they started adopting such adult concerns as marriage and adultery, and "adult" behavior such as the adulterous jerk Cos losing control of himself and striking Ayla in the face...all while wearing a man-bustier that wouldn't have been out of place at a sado-masochism club. In hindsight it all seems very creepy and very gross to me, and while the second Levitz run at least made an honorable effort at showing the early members maturing while also mentoring new, younger members, I think Levitz ultimately erred on the side of losing sight of the essence of what made the Legion special; I still think many of his stories are worthwhile sci-fi/superhero stories (especially, as I've mentioned before, in the first 35 issues of the Baxter Era), I'm no longer convinced that they're worthwhile *Legion* stories.

Nor will I completely dismiss all arguments in defense of the Legionnaires maturing and evolving as we all do in Real Life, as I've read many that I found, and still find, quite persuasive and valid. But I'm still sticking to my current belief that the Legion works best when the characters remain under the age of 20 (potential for a "Logan's Run"-style scenario? Nah, I never much cared for "Logan's Run," it was just an idle thought.) Consider, for a moment, the (admittedly subjective) view that the best tales of the Adventure Era Legion still endure decades later despite certain dated aspects, while of the Legion stories that followed, the ones which hold up best to scrutiny are, IMHO, not Levitz Mark 2, nor TMK, nor DnA, but rather the cream of the Postboot crop (the consensus holds that it was most consistently good during its first year-and-a-half, totaling about three dozen issues), and maybe a few issues from the peak of the Cockrum era (I'd nominate Superboy issues 197, 198, and 201.)

To summarize: Despite the high esteem in which I hold King's writing, I have to admit that, no, I don't think he's the ideal writer for the Legion, and that of the writers shown in that photograph, the one I ultimately find myself leaning towards remains Hope Larson.)

ADDENDUM: The thread below, started almost a year-and-a-half ago, before all the various teases and rumors, probably won't make any difference to DC at this point, but I thought I'd share it anyway, if only to point out that, as of this post, IDW's Kelly Thompson-written "Jem" comic is still going strong, having managed the not-inconsiderable feat of riding out the shit-storm of bad publicity generated by the live-action movie version of "Jem," which was quite literally a cinematic disaster of record-setting, history-making proportions. So, yes, I do still believe that Kelly is the ideal writer for the Legion, and that my ideal version of the Legion would be...wait for it..."JEM IN SPA-A-A-A-A-ACE!!"

Think about it.

https://www.legionworld.net/forums/u...=indie+writer&Search=true#Post856590

Lots of good points for further thought in Fanfic Lady’s post. Some early thoughts…



I didn't pick up on it until fairly well in. Taking the first issue, it does deviate from the grid where it feels it should. It's not confined to it. There's a Tigorr splash for example. I think that the structure lent itself well to that cinematic approach that the book went with, and wasn't always slavish to it when a big close up of something was required.

Also bear in mind that Kyle's speech in the last pages is the payoff to the very format of the book. As we've been reading it, he's being making the comparison between the grid and the confines of his religion and other cages. That got a lot of points, not least because the writing's vision is working on a number of levels.



I think this is probably unavoidable. People just can't help themselves. That's particularly the case if it's on a book they have genuine fondness for. If it's not the writer, you're going to get throw aways from the artist. I remember the post Crisis Superman setting up a bold new direction. But within five minutes you were up to your ears in Supergirls, signal watches, 5th dimensional imps and Titanos. Things like Kingdom come were also full of them. I suppose you can just hope that the past doesn't prevent a better story being told.




I agree that there are similarities.

I wonder what hand editorial had in both ventures. Not in a bad way per se, just in having to guide both. I think I read here that Omega Men was almost cancelled early on. Did it originally start out as a 12 issue arc? We know that DnA's run just didn't get the traction they were expecting. I think that resulted in some plot shifts as they got a little, well, desperate might be a strong word, but it certainly resulted in some changes.

With all that going on, plus the traditionally saggy second acts of things I can see how things could get saggier than usual.




Crumbs, that's the basis of a good thread all by itself. For myself, I've always seen the Legion as older. They grew as I did. Reading your post makes me realise that the shift back to being younger, as part of the reboot, was a bit of a jolt. Well, that and the thought of re-treading ground with essentially the same cast too probably. Enough to jolt me away.

I completely agree about a lot of the Adventure tales really standing out even now. It's that sense of heightened drama for me. That earnest depiction that so much depends on their decisions. But that's as much the good writing and the threats that they're facing, as much as them being adolescent decisions. That life or death approach to everything is one of the ways in which they always seemed older.

Sure, the likes of Lu's decisions remain powerful. But people of all ages still go through that sort of angst in their relationships. People of all ages feel uncertain. Lost and still trying to make sense of a lot of things in their lives. So, it might not have to be an age thing to be effective.

Looking at extremes. Is the Legion book likely to sell as many books if it’s about a group of folks in their mid 30s fighting for the galaxy, or is it going to sell more to a younger audience by having them in their late teens? You’d have to say their late teens. Personally, that peak super hero age of late twenties looks like a good balance for getting the best of most stories. I would sacrifice a few puppy love stories to avoid the current market segmentation of pitching it too young. King’s Omega Men (Look! On Topic Ma!) fall into that middle ground nicely.


In my summary, I do think King would be a decent fit for the Legion. I had a peek at a few of the early Omega Men issues I have. The revamp follows a lot of it more closely that I had remembered. So, King clearly did some reading. If we take it that his Legion would follow a similar pattern, then there’s no reason to assume it wouldn’t please a lot of folks story wise. His Omega Men has shown that he’s happy to tackle issues within a sci-fi setting dealing with morals, humour, action and adventure. I’d like to see more of his work dealing with superheroes though. Kyle was vastly underplayed and I noted that Kalista and Primus were stripped of their powers too.

A few weeks after I joined here, I rattled off notes on some Legion fanplotz. I ended up with about 80-100 issues, but the second year would have covered a few of the points raised in the Omega Men run. I saw that as a logical extension of the preboot/retroboot. So, I’d quite like to see what he’d do in the Legionverse.

Looking forward to it, Thoth.

^ FL: other than our differing opinions on the merits of Rokk's glorious bustier (and, perhaps, on TMK which I haven't read enough of to judge), we are SO on the same page with our assessments of every era of the Legion!

Maybe we should team up to write the new run?

Why, thank you kindly, Blacula.

Funnily enough, I'm not so sure anymore that I'd want to write the official canon version of the Legion, which is something that I was already planning to address later on today in the writers discussion thread in Bits.

However, I can guarantee that I *will* continue to write Postboot Legion fanfics off and on, and you're always welcome to PM me with any story and/or character ideas you might want me to consider.