Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities My Big-Ass Pile o'Trades Waiting To Be Read At My Whim

I'd say that overall Denny's stories came off fairly juvenile compared to what Conway, Wein and even Wolfman to some degree had done. His main additions to Spidey's rogues were Hydro-Man and Speed Demon (the latter actually a rebranded Whizzer of Squadron Sinister). Both are C-listers, or low B-listers if one is generous. And the King Kong rip-off with Hydro and Sandman combined was just ridiculous. I feel that PPSSM was clearly the better book (even considering some goofy stories and villains like Lightmaster) almost from its outset until Stern moved over to ASM. Even then, it's still a strong book for a long time.

I'll agree that Denny did some good work on Iron Man, but it's hard not to think that his Marvel writing (if not his editing, as you mention) was a failure compared to his overall body of work at DC. And his longtime stewardship editing the Batman books was memorable as well.

Thanks, Lardy, but you don't have to go any further. It's official now, Lazarus gets a hard pass from me.

I swear -- and I've said this on at least a couple other occasions here in the Gy'mll's forum, but no one has replied yet -- Rucka is the most overrated writer of female characters since Chris Claremont's slide into self-parody from the mid-80s on. News flash, Greggy: Not every strong woman is necessarily a violent, surly, pseudo-badass! We come in all different shapes, sizes, personalities, races, creeds, opinions, outlooks, values, politics, philosophies, ways of coping with life...

I'm sure those of you reading this post get the idea. But in the unlikely event that Rucka should read it, I don't think he would.

I think Forever is a lot less that stereotype than what you think. She's definitely formidable but there's a naivete and vulnerability to her that is a big part of her character. She is told that she is the daughter of the head of the Carlyle family, but she is held at arm's length by both him and her supposed siblings. She also has a generally Latino or mixed race look to her while the other Carlyle's are clearly white. Her self-discovery is a big part of the story as she evolves from loyal soldier to potential rebel.

I think if Denny's Iron Man penciler, Luke McDonnell (later of Ostrander Suicide Squad fame), had had a really exceptional inker, the run would be better regarded today. Unfortunately, the inking was really bad until just before McDonnell left with 199, when the solid, reliable team of Ian Akin & Brian Garvery took over the inks, just in time to make incoming IM artist M.D. Bright look even more awesome than usual. But even though the book was finally looking the way it should have all along, Denny seemed to be waiting for his contract to expire on the handful of IM issues he wrote post-200. By then, though, morale at Marvel in general was at rock bottom, thanks to Shooter's micro-management going completely out of control, and alienating a lot of his former supporters...or so I've read.

Agree for the most part on Denny as Bat-Editor. He did, after all, bring in Alan Grant and Chuck Dixon (people can say what they will about the latter, but if only he'd keep his trap shut, his talent would get the respect it deserves), and coax Doug Moench into coming back. And many of the artists Denny put on the Bat-Books were really good.

I think Denny's numerous detractors like to believe that the Bat-Books didn't get any better after their extremely awkward start. Max Collins, whose Dick Tracy run was really good for quite awhile, didn't jell with Batman or Denny for whatever reason, and was quickly gone. Mike W. Barr & Alan Davis did some really nice work for a few issues, but Davis and Denny did not see eye-to-eye, to put it mildly, which is why Davis left abruptly one-fourth of the way into Batman: Year Two. Then the Bat-Books bifurcated for a while, with Grant & Breyfogle turning out awesome stuff month after month on Detective, while Jim Starlin was dragging the flagship Bat-book through the mud, reaching his nadir with the vote-for-Robin's-death storyline. Once Starlin was gone, that, to me, was when the whole Bat-franchise started a steady climb to the top of the DC heap, and although they kinda lost me for a couple years with the series of Bat-Stunts that started with Knightfall, I remember they'd gotten really good again by the mid-90s, which was where I went on a temporary hiatus from comics (7 years to be exact), because by then, the Bat-franchise was the exception rather than the rule. (Although, in hindisight, DC was quite solid from about 1998 to 2002. Ah, well, it was fun catching up via back issues and trades.)

Hmmm...

Point well taken. Unfortunately, there's another hurdle which we both seem to agree on -- Rucka's tendency for "decompressed" pacing long after it stopped being fashionable.

We shall see about Lazarus.

Thanks, Lardy.

It's cool. I'm not really trying to sell it to you but give you a rounded view of what it's about. I'll agree that Rucka misses the mark quite a bit in his work and is generally terribly overrated. If Vol. 3 of Lazarus hadn't finally come with some real forward momentum and some genuine sizzle, I may have just stopped altogether instead of proceeding with my plan to continue with trades. I've been genuinely looking forward to Vol. 4, though, since the last arc really impressed. I'll probably read it sooner than later and let you know what I think.

I never thought you were trying to sell me on it, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I was genuinely curious, but with very strong reservations, many of which we turned out to agree on.

Looking forward to your review of Volume 4.

The whole brown-girl-in-a-white-world thing is especially intriguing to me. My own formative years, oddly enough, were sort of the reverse -- schoolmates and authority figures and even, more passive-aggressively, some of my father's relatives considered me a dead loss because they viewed me as a half-breed.

Nothing to apologize for, Fick. I think even if I was pushing the book, I'd recommend looking for it at the library.

I think the best thing Rucka ever did that I've read was Gotham Central. Even after Brubaker departed as rotating writer with him, it was a really great book. Now, THAT I'd easily recommend!

OK. Much appreciated, I feel better now.

Any thoughts on my subjective overview of Denny O'Neil's Bat-Editor tenure, or are you saving that for another time?

Thanks. If the library has the trades, I might borrow the first volume.

I think your assessment is pretty good. All of my favorite Batman creative teams (Grant/Breyfogle, Moench/Jones, Dixon/Nolan) thrived under his guidance. I did enjoy the Knights Trilogy, Contagion and some of the other events that he presided over. No Man's Land was a bit too much. Generally, his books were best when left alone to thrive and do their own thing. And I'm assuming he shepherded Tim Drake's rise to fame over his miniseries and ongoing. All of those were just super while Chuck Dixon was scripting.

Thanks for the kind words, Lardy.

And, yes, Tim Drake was totally Denny's baby (OK, technically, he had several other "fathers", including Alan Grant, Neal Adams, Chuck Dixon, Marv Wolfman...but Denny's the one who made it happen.)

That's an impressive line-up of creative teams, right there...

Random thoughts!

Spidey:
- love that you’re now into the Stern Era of Spidey, Lardy! My last reread was circa 2006 and even then, which was like my 20th reread of it, I was blown away by how good Stern was.

- Totally agree that Mantlo was one of the great Spidey writers too. He had such a solid hold on how to make a good Spider-Man story: good plots, great handle on the characters, great handle on Peter, great usage of various villains.

- Totally agree that Denny O’Neil is the first writer to real kind of fall flat on Spidey (if you don’t count MTU, which I don’t). After nearly 20 years of consistently great writing, O’Neil’s stories are like having your legs fall out from under you after you’ve been running for miles. I love Denny too—for his DC work in the 60’s onwards and especially for his guiding editorial hand of the Bat titles during what I consider one of the greatest eras ever for Batman. But his Marvel work always kind of felt flat, especially on Spidey. I will say, though, that I always liked the story featuring Fusion (the two little people twins)—but I think O’Neil only really scripted that, since Shooter or Gruenweld or someone else basically plotted it out.

- Would love to hear any random thoughts you have on anything Spidey-related in the Spider-Man Thread. For instance, what did you think of “The Beetle and the Badge” in the PPTSS teens? Did you love the Carrion Saga like I did?

Lazarus
- I also switched to trades after the third arc on Lazarus. That glacier pace was too much for me to bare. I’ll be curious to your thoughts on V.4. The problem for trades with me is that it could end up taking me actual years before I get around to buying something.

- In general feel that Rucka can be really over-rated sometimes and perhaps buys into his own press. That being said, his current Wonder Woman is the first thing he’s done in awhile that I’ve really loved.

- But the best thing Rucka has ever been a part of is definitely Gotham Central. A much missed, beloved series.

Just to be clear, I'd previously read most of his ASM run before as a kid and portions of his PPSSM run. But there have always been gaps in my overall Spider-man reading, that I've only recently filled by obtain reprints of the entire run over the last couple of years. Once I've read/re-read Stern and the post-Stern issues of PPSSM in Essential Vol. 3, I'll be all caught up to where I jumped in as a kid!



Yep! Even though, like Conway, he created and used some cheesy villains like Lightmaster and the Iguana, there was still a lot to enjoy. I'd put him in a second tier of Spidey scribes below my faves, but he was very solid overall.



It was quite a slog for me, and the Fusion story was no exception, sorry to say. Oddly though, the annual he did with Frank Miller featuring the Punisher and Doc Ock was actually quite good. It helped that he wasn't writing for an apparent overly juvenile audience in that one.



The Carrion Saga was not new to me, as I first read it back in the '80s in a special reprint series. As then, it's very good and works about as well as a Clone saga sequel as if Conway wrote it. It's weird to read it and think of how it was retconned that no one was actually a clone and then, I guess, re-retconned that they were! Head...hurts...

The Beetle story you mentioned was rather mature for a Spidey tale of its era in that it was so frank about what being a hero cop might mean to a marriage. Not bad!



Like I said, I'll read that one sooner than later and let you know!

Two Gotham Central recommendations in a row. Hmmm...

Re: Wonder Woman, it appears that neither of you are bothered by the were-cat Cheetah like I am. But isn't she a bit too obvious, too predicatble a villain for the opening arc? Or is that just me, too?

Re: Lazarus, it occurred to me as I was formulating this reply in my head that Rucka may be using this book as a vehicle for his (unconscious?) deconstruction of outdated anti-heroine tropes (some of which Rucka arguably created himself, especially that hot mess he made during his Checkmate run about Beatriz's past as a spy for the Brazilian government. I mean, for chrissakes, that was originally a throwaway bit from a lame Secret Origins story published in, what, 1989?? And to dredge it up years later and use it as an excuse to give us a grim-and-gritty Bea? Effin' DiDio Era stupidity at its worst!!)

Hey! Don't know where you're gettin' "neither of you", but I haven't read a lick of Rucka's rebirth WW run!

Oops! Sorry, Lardy, I'm just addled ATM. I think I've been on the computer for over four consecutive hours! And now I remember why I usually don't do that anymore. Time for a break. But I'll definitely be back in a couple hours.

The Cheetah doesn't bother me. I like the relationship Rucka is showing between her and Diana, and their backstory as former friends / colleagues in Diana's early years.

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I've seen the Cheetah. Has she been over-used in recent years?

Yeah. Heinberg and Simone both used the Cheetah really badly. Simone's use of her jumped the shark at what should have been the key moment for Diana and her:

Diana, so appalled by Cheetah's deviltry that she can no longer contain herself, asks, "Why do you do these horrible things?" And Cheetah replies, "I like to play with my food." Cut to the next, unrelated scene.

Groan.

And people wonder why I'm a Simone detractor?

I think I will be taking an eBay break after I spend my eBay bucks certificate. As Pov pointed out on FB with a meme, I need to read deeper into the Pile itself which has grown at a MUCH larger rate than what I have time to read.

If something new comes out I've got to have, I might do an IST order but otherwise, I'm planning on taking a 3-month TPB break at least.

It's VERY addicting! My finances aren't hurting, but there are still better things I could be doing with my money rather than buying 300% more (conservative estimate) than I'm reading!

So with that in mind, I wonder which of these TPBs I should use my certificate on:

Vision Vol. 1
Superman: Lois & Clark
Doctor Strange: Into the Dark Dimension
Amazing Spider-Man: Worldwide Vol. 2

Decisions, decisions....

Is that the new vision? I'm hearing so many good things about it here, I'm thinking of giving a look the next time I'm in the shop.

OH NO!! I didn't mean to pick on you, PALardy!! I share your illness!! I may not buy trades as prodigiously as you, but I have a fair share I need to keep on top of before my next IST spree--TWD HC#13, the HUGE Grant Morrison New X-Men Omnibus, Four Eyes vol. 2 (which requires a reread of the first volume, as it's been so long since it first came out), the UNBEATABLE SQUIRREL GIRL BEATS UP the MARVEL UNIVERSE OGN... AND our library visits at the beginning of every month, from which I inevitably walk away with a new book they've picked out for me to try; Last month was the charming and quirky novel, LILY and the OCTOPUS , and this past Friday I left our Coffee Hour with the history-based FEVER of 1792... So many books and trades, so little time.

Tsundoku is a beautiful word for our predicament... Happy reading!