It's interesting how Kingdom Come, written as a scathing indictment of 90's excesses, trends and tropes, is just as relevant, if not more so, today.
That one two-panel sequence - "God always said the meek would inherit the Earth ..." "...but God never accounted for the mighty" - always takes my breath away
Oddly enough, KC probably wouldn't make my DC's Top 10 list. I liked and enjoyed it, but it didn't resonate deeply with me. In fact I've only ever read it once, when it first came out. I do think it's due for a re-read sometime soon. I'll see if reading it all at once a couple decades later will enhance its appeal for me.
Oddly enough, KC probably wouldn't make my DC's Top 10 list. I liked and enjoyed it, but it didn't resonate deeply with me. In fact I've only ever read it once, when it first came out. I do think it's due for a re-read sometime soon. I'll see if reading it all at once a couple decades later will enhance its appeal for me.
Lardy, since you and I generally have similar tastes in superhero comics, I'll be very interested to know what you think of KC upon re-reading it. My reaction to it at the time was very much like the way you describe yours.
I think you'll both find it an interesting piece, especially in hindsight, as this was written before the age of Didio, which in many ways it was predicting and warning against. It likely wouldn't be in my top 10, but it would be top 20. Waid and Ross seem to click and really balance out each other's worst tendencies. When each approached the work separately after the fact (Waid in the "Kingdom" and Ross in "JSA: Thy Kingdom Come") they were both vastly inferior.
Thanks, Dave. Now I've really got a KC itch to scratch. My library has the 2008 edition of the KC trade, so I just made a request for it. Will review it in Gy'mll's.
As for Waid's The Kingdom and Ross's (and Johns's) JSA/KC storyline, I'll always have a sentimental spot for the former because it introduced Hypertime, but I think the latter is an abomination.
Never read TT (and rarely Batman) other than this story in trade. Why was the part of him becoming Nightwing (or leaving Robin or both) significant?
Well, it: a) symbolized Dick growing both out of his mentor's shadow and growing up in general, and b) in a larger sense, it showed real change was possible in the DCU with more to come.
Even after all that's been retconned and done away in the decades since, Dick has remained Nightwing (or at least not-Robin) ever since.
Originally Posted by Set
For me, it was the moment that DC put a stamp on itself as not just being 'the other Marvel' and being willing to do something new and different and kind of out-of-left-field for this comicbook serial storytelling medium, they changed something and never looked back. Tons of characters temporarily change names or costumes or adopt new gimmicks (Spider-Man's black costume, Captain America becomes 'the Captain', Superman splits into two energy Supermen, etc.) but such things are *always* reset back to 'normal.'
Dick Grayson grew up, and will never 'be fixed' and reverted to Robin again, and that's the sort of thing that comic book companies tend to shy away from. Actual, lasting change. Character development that actually changes the status quo and 'affects the brand' (not just a new costume, to sell some new action figures, but a new *name*).
It was around that time that other dramatic changes were happening, such as Barry being replaced by Wally, Hal being replaced by John Stewart, Infinity, Inc. making a run at replacing the older JSA, etc. and it seemed like anything was possible, while Marvel would keep using their same stable of characters from the 40s-60's pretty much forever, humorously highlighted by the eternal eight year old, Franklin Richards, who, unlike DC characters, would never be allowed to age a day.
Obviously that's changed a bit. (Hal and Barry are back, and Infinity Inc is long forgotten, while the JSA have been dragged back into the spotlight. But Dick remains Nightwing, or 'Grayson,' and has not be dragged back into the short pants, no matter how much Didio has groused about not 'getting' the character and wanting to kill him off.)
As I mentioned above, I liked Generations and have during the scope of this thread, reread it. Yeah, I can see the importance you assigned to it now. Someone that aged with him probably even moreso.
Man, if they'd followed the same script, those original Legionnaires would be how old now? Some of them might actually have died of old age, depending on what that will mean in a 1000 years.
Can you imagine growing up with a comicbook character that ages as you do, and it dies of old age! Ouch!
As I mentioned above, I liked Generations and have during the scope of this thread, reread it. Yeah, I can see the importance you assigned to it now. Someone that aged with him probably even moreso.
Man, if they'd followed the same script, those original Legionnaires would be how old now? Some of them might actually have died of old age, depending on what that will mean in a 1000 years.
Can you imagine growing up with a comicbook character that ages as you do, and it dies of old age! Ouch!
That would be crazy, especially in a book like the Legion, where a character might only get a few speaking lines a year, and some barely have any defining arcs after a decade.
But they grew up much slower, going from young teens in the 50's to older teens / early '20s in the '80s, with characters like the Teen Titans and the Legion becoming young adults, but not increasing in age by anything like 30 years! (It seemed to be more like 1 year / 10 years or so.) The Legion comic at the time embraced this sort of thing as well, with Legionnaires like Garth and Imra 'growing up,' marrying, having a child and quasi-retiring (along with Chuck & Lu and Val & Jeckie, who also married and retired, making room for newer characters like Dawnstar, Blok and Mysa).
At some point, DC backed away from that, and the Reboot presented the former young adults as even younger than before (as young as 14, IIRC, and certainly drawn that way), and the Threeboot, while they were drawn as young adults, and acted like young adults, were still all 'eat it grandpa' and attempting to channel a younger 'pre-adult' / pre-team-members-are-growing-up-and-getting-married vibe. And the characters introduced in the 'growing up' phase, like the aforementioned Dawnstar, Blok and White Witch, tended to be absent from those teams.
I was trying to think if I had a top ten DC clickbait list.
But for every Judas Contract, there's the issue where Kid Flash writes to his folks. While the former was a great finale to Terra/Terminator/Robin-to-Nightwing arcs, the latter was the first that really showed the title was strong enough to make it's own mark and thrive. The Baxter Trigon arc, the Runaways story, Brother Blood intro; Who is Donna Troy (although I remember it as she sort of finds her parents through intuition in the end) or Who is Wonder Girl and the Second Annual that introduced Cheshire. etc
For every Great Darkness Saga (although I've never thought much about the Deus Ex Machina Highfather/Baby bit)there's the Lightle membership issue; The original Universo taking over the Earth; The Sun Eater/ Fatal Five intro; the Adult Legion and on and on.
I really enjoyed Crisis, even though you could clearly push an alternate Earth through the cracks in the plot. But there' was also the Nekron Green Lantern story before that or any umber of JLA/JSA crossovers. For every recent story with huge scope there's an older story such as Superman living forever in Action Comics.
So, I've no list in the end. So many stories are built from the solid foundations of equally good previous stories or ideas. Certain moments of issues stick with me, such as the thrill of fear as Mordru escapes his confinement or the shock of Mask Man going on his killing spree.
While there's a lot of big action arcs there's also more understated stories involving Swamp Thing or early Hellblazers. There's Doom Patrol issues such as the one where Kay Challis is stuck in a normal world or Batman: Year One.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Oh, there's that one scene where someone (Luthor?) taunts Jimmy Olsen with what his Legion friends will look like when they're old...
Well, if that's the exact taunt, it's pretty ridiculous! I mean think about it: Jimmy will grow old and be dead for a millennium before the Legionnaires grow old, right?
Wow, just think what a blooper this would have been if some of the Legionnaires depicted reaching old age were Karate Kid, Chemical King or Invisible Kid! Or *gulp* Superboy or Supergirl!
That's Wildfire up there, wearing a wrinkly mask so the others don't notice it's really Dirk's rotting corpse next to them. A sense of smell is clearly the first thing they all lose.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Wow, just think what a blooper this would have been if some of the Legionnaires depicted reaching old age were Karate Kid, Chemical King or Invisible Kid! Or *gulp* Superboy or Supergirl!
WAIT A SECOND----SUN BOY!!!!!! He dies...TWICE!
Wasn't it three times? IIRC, he's the only Legionnaire to have died in the Classic, Reboot and Threeboot continuities (although Element Lad is right behind him...).
Is getting the story in HC worth the investment Lardy? I've got ye olde single issues (was going to say floppies, but I could do without medical advice posts) and they are showing their age. Does the story really pop out with the extra quality printing?
I certainly thought the Absolute Crisis was well worth the pennies.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
The restored/revised colouring alone is worth the price of admission, as is the paper quality. Even Broderick's art, which I was never huge on, looks great. They do use the alternate art for the backup in #291, so if you've never seen it, it's... interesting.
The bonus features (Scripts) are also quite good. It's crazy how sparse the scripts get as the GDS rolls on. They must have been on the phone a lot.
The follow-up HC of "The Curse" is also good, but doesn't have any bells or whistles.
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