Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

Thanks for mentioning that, Lardy. Byrne has been reliably good for nice little touches like that throughout the run so far.



Yeah, I think I'd probably be a dissenter, too. On the other hand, I think if we look at Galactus as a force of nature in the universal food chain, he does start to seem essential to the continued well-being of the universe. The back-to-nature stereotypes are portrayed as perceiving nature as being far more gentle than it actually is.



Here I think Byrne made a mistake common to writers who are still honing their craft -- he spelled out something that was better left implied. I just don't see Galactus dropping his aloof façade that completely. But that's just me.

And I'll get into the whole Frankie Raye thing in my next post.

Re: Frankie -- I can appreciate and respect the points you make, Lardy. And I do feel now that I was a bit harsh in saying that I couldn't feel for Johnny. But Frankie's "What's a few less bug-eyed aliens?" remark really bothered me a lot. It's one thing for one partner in a relationship to be less in love than the other, and to break off the relationship for a more lucrative opportunity. It's quite another when one of the partners proves to have beliefs that fly in the face of all sentient decency. Its real world equivalent would have been Frankie saying something virulently racist. So my feelings towards Frankie are basically, "Vaya con Dios, ignorante estupida", and that Johnny, for all his jerkiness and immaturity in the past, deserves better than her.

So I guess what it comes down to is that I might have been more forgiving of Frankie if not for the bug-eyed aliens remark.

Point taken as intended, Ficque. I would imagine, however, that this would be the point of view of most Average Joes/Joans, especially if it's a choice between us or them for complete annihilation. Certainly, people can be fickle (natch) about when we do or do not care about foreign tragedies and conflicts.

In any case I'm not defending Frankie and her ambivalence about sentient life. In fact, it's a little refreshing to see Byrne tell her story without making her some sacrificing paragon. Writers go to that well all-too often, and it can become disaffecting when retold ad nauseum. I do think Frankie did care about whether Earth lived or died, but it was also an opportunistic move to give her the leverage she wanted. And it was telling that she completely ignored Johnny after getting what she wanted to the point that she even was either oblivious or unconcerned when he put himself in danger trying to pursue her.

This is one of those sets of issues that is not truly a "re-read" for me as I'd never had the opportunity to experience them off the stands or as back-issues or in collected editions before. I'd always had an idealized version of this story in my head thinking it was much more straightforward and by-the-numbers than it actually was, especially the details of Frankie's so-called sacrifice. I was both stunned and pleased to see the actual story was much more layered and much less cliched than what I always assumed it had been. I'm really pleased with how Byrne's still-neophyte but quickly maturing writing skills have come in a fairly short period.

I think that aspect of Galactus' larger role being important to the cosmos is explored later, either by Byrne or later writers. (Maybe in Reed's upcoming trial?) Either way, it's nice to know that Reed's actions her will have repercussions.



I think it's clear in my review that I didn't mind it at all, though I can see the argument against it. It's a unique moment and one we haven't seen and won't often see from Galactus before or since. I think it works because the story features Galactus at his lowest and most vulnerable point, so his trademark aloofness being compromised works. And let's not forget that Doctor Strange made him experience the horrors he's wrought in the previous issue.

In any case I'm curious how this three-part story ranks for you among those in Byrne's run to that point. I said it was the best yet, but I'm wondering if your concerns would put it behind the other highlights.

Lardy, I have a favor to ask. I've been feeling a bit unfocused of late due to things going on in Real Life (no need to worry, it's not a life-or-death thing) so I don't know when I'll be able to continue the discussion on 242-244 or when I'll be able to review 245-246. Could you please review 245-246 at your convenience, and I'll catch up when I feel up to it?

Certainly. I'd fallen behind myself because my life's been busy. But I will continue. I will, however, require you to reply to some of the points in my previous post eventually.

Thanks, Lardy.

And, yes, I absolutely will continue our discussion about Galactus, Frankie, etc. That is my top posting priority in the next few days.

I like the pun.

And I agree that humanity generally tends to look out for number one. Perhaps I was bothered to the extent that I was because of Byrne/Frankie's choice of words. Whether or not Byrne intended it, she came across to me as a rabid xenophobe.



It will definitely be interesting to see if what we've been discussing does turn out to be part of the defense's argument in the Trial of Galactus arc.



Fair enough, and this is certainly not the only instance of Marvel making Galactus look less awesome than he's supposed to be. Using him as one of a random group of villains in the original Secret Wars is a far greater offense than anything in Byrne's story. And don't get me started on Hickman having Franklin Richards playing around with Galactus and the Celestials like they were toys...



I'd rank it third best of the ones we've re-read so far, with Ego second best and the 20th Anniversary special at the top.

I'm certainly not invalidating your take on her. At face value it's a very understandable read. I interpreted it a different way--perhaps reading deeper meaning into it than it deserves--but that's how it resonates with me.



As I've implied, the memory is definitely fuzzy on the early part of this run, especially before Shulkie comes aboard which is when I started buying it off the stands. I filled in a lot of back issues in Byrne's run, but there were gaps. Plus, the immediacy of the current issues probably stuck in the memory better.



I don't think I read that Hickman tale. Definitely too far. I think Byrne handled it just right under the conditions he set up. It shouldn't be abused.



At least we agree on the Top Three, if not the exact order. I'd put 20th anniversay 2nd and Ego third.

How true, how true.

On a more positive note, I think one of the best portrayals of Galactus from the not-too-distant past was in the first Annihilation event.

FF#245, "Childhood's End", picks up on a cliffhanger from last issue as Franklin's powers flared up as he had a meltdown caused by being frustrated with a Rubik's Cube. The casualty was his robotic nanny, who strongly resembled the also-doomed HERBIE from a couple of years previous.

This issue does not pick up from that cliffhanger directly, but instead begins with Sue taping an interview with a Barbara Walters stand-in, which we saw her going to last issue just before Franklin's meltdown. Byrne, I think, uses the interview and the interviewer's biases to address readers' criticisms of Sue up to this point in her character's existence. Everything from her being the group's weak link to her role as the damsel in distress to her dalliances with Prince Namor are discussed.

Byrne accomplishes a few things with the interview. He shows that Sue has definitely had her moments, even when we know she was often poorly written and shown as weak. He shows thru Sue's assertiveness in the interview, that she is not the timid, meek housewife many think her to be. And, most of all, Byrne uses the piece to show that, looking ahead, he has every intention of showing the strength in the character without ignoring or discarding what we already know about her.

So in a way, the sequence is a very meta device for Byrne. Me, I could already see him moving Sue forward and out of the shadows in his still fairly nascient run, but I like the spotlight on her and Byrne's mission to show she is every bit an equal in the FF. Byrne is having Sue talk directly to us, really, but thru the trappings of the interview, I don't think he's beating us over the head with his point.

From there, the story segues into a threat at the Baxter Building which is still under repair. It's being menaced by a man with long blonde hair and beard who seems very confused but has already defeated Reed, Ben and Johnny. Sue arrives and is forced to play cat-and-mouse with the superiorly-powered foe. Soon, Sue realizes that the man is none other than Franklin, whose outburst of power has aged him and left his memory in disarray.

Sue gets thru to Franklin and helps him remember who he is. Franklin decides on his own to self-impose mental blocks on his powerful mind, When he does so, he reverts back to his previous child body and mind but not before an attempt of his to cure Ben reverts Ben back to his familiar rocky state.

It's an interesting idea for a story and one that I think Byrne used to address Franklin's powers for the foreseeable future. Franklin had been manifesting his powers for years since he was born. I think Byrne wanted to explore some of the ideas that may have been percolating in the minds of fans and other creators but with the ultimate goal that Franklin would have the opportunity to be just a kid for a while. I think it's a noble idea to put the Franklin rabbit back in the hat for awhile and counter expectations in the process.

Was it a great story? No, not really. For one thing, it makes the Thing's reversion earlier in Byrne's run seem fairly pointless. Plus, adult Franklin was just kind of weird and creepy. But I liked the ideas Byrne had with Sue and Franklin and how he set them up for how he was going to utilize the characters here. Plus, the art was really tight and classic Byrne, and the cover featuring Sue alone was one of Byrne's best to date, imo. So I'll rate it squarely "good, but not great" and mostly admire it for how Byrne shows us he's got Sue's back and that Franklin will neither be the book's deus ex machina nor its Dark Phoenix.

Next up is a Dr. Doom 2-parter that appeared in FF 246-7: "Too Many Dooms"/"This Land is Mine!" The story finally picks up the loose plot thread left over from the instant-classic FF 236, the aftermath of which left Doom catatonic and basically a prisoner of the FF in the Baxter Building. After dedicating some subplot time here and there in the interim to remind us he's still there and that some thought has been put into what to do with him, the FF finally deliver the in-stasis villain to the Latverian Embassy. But something is afoot as another Doom is waiting at the embassy with nefarious intent. Meanwhile, another Doom has visited the site of FF 236's tiny adventure and confronted the Puppet Master, retrieving the tiny puppet Doom from Liddleville. It turns out, the catatonic Doom is the real deal, and the others are Doombots. The Doombots restore the true Doom by extracting his consciousness from the Liddleville puppet.

So the whole thing is, of course, a trap for the FF. Each is separated and simultaneously confronted by different Doombots. In the end they are Doom's captives under the effects of an inhibitor ray with Doom hinting he needs them for something. Turns out, that something is to help him take back Latveria, which the footnotes say they helped liberate from him back in FF 200. It seems Doom's usurper has done more harm to Latveria and its citizens than Doom ever did.

246 is fairly humdrum and by-the-numbers in execution, overall, but I think 247 more than makes up for it.

247 has our heroes and Doom in Latveria, where we left them, as the FF try to reconcile the idea of helping Doom take back his power there. Through the next several pages, they get more and more proof that the current ruler Zorba has driven the country into the ground and has terribly mistreated and subjugated the citizens. The FF's skepticism is slowly worn down, and they ultimately throw in with Doom to save the Latverian lives that are endangered by Zorba's robotic forces going after Doom and the FF with no regard to innocent lives. While they battle the robots, Doom tracks down Zorba and takes him down permanently. The FF then depart under an uneasy detante with Doom.

Again, while 246 was a fairly standard tale of heroes falling into a trap and under the villain's thrall, 247 pays it off with a more unusual story. Not only do you have the FF in an uneasy alliance with their archfoe, Byrne shows us that maybe Doom isn't all bad, at least in terms of his ability to lead a peaceful, prosperous country. No, Byrne doesn't give Doom a break as far as his being a dictator demanding absolute obedience, but we also see that there are worse leaders than Doom. Doom, at least, kept his people well provided for and afforded a peaceful existence. Zorba did none of that and also held no regard for their lives. Worst of all, the FF helped put Zorba in power.

I liked how this story provided a different way of looking at Doom. While not depriving him of his villainy, we see that he was certainly a more beneficent ruler than we gave him credit for. Not that anyone is endorsing that kind of rule, but it gives him some sense of nobility that he may not have had [previously.

Also, Byrne's art is much more intricate and dense in part two. He seems to revel in the Baltic architecture and settings while also drawing detailed fights and damage and even making the locals look interesting. he also gives us our first look at young Kristoff, who will figure into the Doom milieu later in the run.

Overall, a good story with a much better conclusion than the start.

Great reviews as always, Lardy. I can't really think of much to add except that Doom had always had some shades of gray, but Byrne took him to the next level and is to be commended for that. Byrne is also to be commended for trying and succeeding at making Sue a credible character despite the continuity baggage.

Can't say much either about FF #248, at least not enough to give it a full-fledged review. I think it's Byrne's second consecutive dud to feature the Inhumans, and the only nice touch is that Crystal & Quicksilver finally give their baby girl a name: Luna. In fairness the story might have worked better as a 2-parter, giving Byrne more room to play around with what is reality and what is not, as well as making the source of the nightmarish illusions a more substantial presence.

Ah, but next, we have one of my favorites, the Gladiator 2-parter!

Any thoughts about 245, Ficque? My initial thought was that you probably wouldn't/didn't like it because of your distaste for the Franklin subplot. However, I was wondering if you might actually have liked how it was resolved as far as Byrne putting the rabbit back in the hat and letting Franklin continue to be a kid.

Lardy, I did like the way Byrne resolved the business about Franklin's powers. I just wish it had been left at that. Which makes me question why Byrne should have broached the topic in the first place. That said, Byrne certainly is not to blame for the way that the writers who followed him unleashed Franklin's powers again.

I think maybe Byrne addressed the topic because the writers previous to his run had used Franklin's powers. I'm fairly sure they did.

That's true, they did (most egregiously Gerry Conway in the mid-70s crossover between Conway's FF and Steve Engelhart's Avengers), but before Byrne addressed the topic, it had, IIRC, lain dormant for the last several years. And I think it should have stayed that way.

Actually, in the more recent run directly preceding Byrne's return, a synopsis from the Omnibus of the intervening issues states, in part, "...Franklin Richards' emerging powers saved his family from the menace of the Brain Parasites." So Moench and Sienkiewicz clearly went there. Seems to me, Byrne found a good way to both address and resolve the matter, rather than just ignore it.

Ah, okay. Thanks, Lardy. Another good reason to not read the Moench/Sienkiewicz FF run. But, yes, I agree Byrne did make lemonade out of that particular lemon of a subplot.

I disagree, Fanfic. The Moench/Sienkiewicz run was a step up from some of the drivel that we had been given in preceding years. I'm not saying it was great or anything, but I didn't think it sucked.

That's all well and good, but I haven't read it and I still don't intend to.

I can't really say much about it, not having read a lick of it, but historically speaking: a) it was a very short run of only 10 issues, and b) it's never really referenced much in later stories or in historical articles. Neither of these necessarily speak to a lack of quality but would seem to in terms of lack of significance.

Looking thru synopses of the issue, the only thing that even pops up in my memory is its use of the Ebon Seeker, and that's probably from some OHotMU references I vaguely recall.

Of course, everyone is entitled to differing views. If you'd like to share some specific memories of the run, Lance, please do.

I'll share something with you: I'm not a big Inhumans fan at all. In fact, I can't think of any of the Big Two's kind of super-powered/offset cultures that I'm really crazy about--whether it be the Inhumans, the Eternals, the New Gods or whatever equivalent groups may apply. this is not to say there aren't some great characters within those groups, but generally speaking, stories set within those cultures tend to leave me cold.

I think a lot of this comes from their generally being portrayed as overly formal and difficult to relate to. Generally, they speak in very purple prose, as well. It's like there's this stereotype that all such groups must conform to to the point where there's not a lot that differentiates them. They're almost interchangeable on a certain level. And they generally bore me to tears.

All that said, FF 248, "Nightmare" was only barely an Inhumans story. Yeah, they were there, and their situation on the Moon was a big part of the goings-on, but it was more of an increasingly incredible set of circumstances that lead to fairly unsatisfying resolution. It reminded me a bit of that earlier Byrne issue leading into the Ego adventure in which a catastrophic set of events unfolds that could change the world as we know it, but the reset button is effectively pushed at the end of the story. That's not exactly what this one pulls, but it uses another well-trodden trope to show us that things were not exactly as they seemed. And the entity/device behind it is not exactly well-defined at the end.

It was very well-illustrated by Byrne, and the storytelling device he used wasn't exactly a travesty. (If you look at the title, that basically tells you the solution, albeit not the artificial influence.) It's the same basic device many writers have used before and sense to explore characters' fears and doomsday scenarios. But like most of those, it's pretty forgettable.

I don't have much to say about the Moench/Sienkiewicz run, but I do have a little.

The stories, by and large, were nothing extraordinary. The brain chiggers story was good, as was the "Shogun warriors" story. The artwork was very good throughout these.

The most memorable thing for me was that the stories were far superior to the stories that immediately preceded this run. Marv Wolfman wrote some truly dreadful FF stories. I remember the awful Quasimodo/Iron Man story, as well as the story about the kid who dreamed demonic images of the FF, or something like that. I suppose I have fond memories of the M/S run just because it signified the FF going uphill, rather than remaining stuck at the bottom of the barrel.

I can think of several times in the FF's history where the stories were worse than these. Having said that, Lardy is absolutely correct in saying nothing here really had any long-term impact. They were fun reads when I was 14, though.