Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

Just ten more days til the Byrne FF re-read begins. Yay!

Lardy, I was wondering, how do you want to pace this re-read? Like maybe an average of two or three issues a week? That seems to me the perfect balance. What do you think?

That sounds reasonable. Maybe start with two a week and see how it goes?

Two a week it is.

This is so exciting.

John Byrne's FF Run: The Prequel

I own both of the Byrne FF Omnibuses. The first includes Marvel Team-Up 61-62, Marvel Two-In-One 50 and Fantastic Four 209-218 and 220-221. These books comprise Byrne's FF work before his run as writer/artist begins in FF 232. (Much of this material is reprinted in the Fantastic Four Visionaries: John Byrne Volume 0 TPB, but not 209-214.) Since I hadn't broached reading either Omnibus prior to this re-read project, I really didn't want to skip the first 250-odd pages, so I went ahead and read them over the last few days.

This was a great warm-up for me because it got me geared up just as Byrne probably did by using these stories to rev up for his on legendary run. (I mean, I doubt he knew he'd get the opportunity to write and draw the book on an ongoing basis a year after 221, but I'm sure this experience didn't hurt.) Most of the material is Byrne drawing other people's scripts: Claremont's on MTU and Wolfman and Mantlo on the bulk of the FF issues. But Byrne did write the 2-in-One issue and FF 220-221.

The Team-Up 2-parter is entertaining but shallow as is typical for the generally standalone book. But Byrne gets to draw both the Torch and the Super-Skrull, the latter being the antagonist for the whole story. I read this, at least the second part featuring Ms. Marvel, some time when I was a kid. I remember vividly the Skrulls stretchy arms, one Thing-rocky and the other Torch-burny, seeking our webhead in the bowels of a cruise chip and finding that particularly creepy. So there was some unexpected nostalgia in re-discovering that story. Not a huge classic but always nice to reminisce.

The 2-in-1 story was kind of nifty as modern Ben Grimm goes back in Doom's time machine in an effort to cure himself of his affliction. I've always loved how Byrne draws Ben Grimm, so this was a treat. The ending fell a little flat, though, so not a big feather in Byrne's early writing cap.

The best part, imo, of these "prequel" issues was Byrne's participation in a massive storyline of Marv Wolfman's on the main book. Byrne actually joined Wolfman in the middle of an 11-part epic involving the Sphinz, Galactus, the Nova Corps, a particularly treacherous Skrull and even H.E.R.B.I.E. the robot in his in-continuity translation from the ill-remembered cartoon. The Omnibus does a good job of summarizing the storyline thus far in a text piece, and then Byrne jumps in and immediately gets to get in on some fun cosmic action that already shows he's up to the task. I won't summarize it, but it's not often you see the Big G in hand-to-hand combat! Plus, Byrne's intro and design of Terrax the Tamer gives him an immediate chance to add to the FF's universe. Excellent stuff, not to mention cool floating pyramids!

215-218 allow Byrne to tell shorter tales with Wolfman and Mantlo. First, there's an entertaining 2-parter that involves Blastaar and new (presumably one-shot) character the Futurist. Again, another opportunity for Byrne to draw a classic FF villain, though the Futurist isn't all that memorable. The latter, at least, has a little Star Trek-type concept in him that suits the FF. 217 wraps up the H.E.R.B.I.E. subplot that had been building since Byrne came aboard and ends both somewhat poignantly and as somewhat of an eff-you to the little robot and the forgettable cartoon that spawned him. 218 gives us a crossover with Spider-Man and an opportunity for Byrne to draw classic FF foes the Frightful Four.

Finally, we have 220-221 which afford Byrne his first credit as writer and artist on the FF book. This is a very good outing that showcases each of the Four very well and gives them both a scientific mystery and some new aliens behind it. This foreshadows his upcoming run very well, as it feels a story very FF-appropriate and especially as it gives Sue a big role in resolving the conflict. Byrne is one of only a few writers, imo, who truly gets the FF character and story dynamic and can also support it with artwork that captures their essence so well. Here, we already see that he can deliver all of this before his real run has even truly begun.

Now that I've had the appetizer, only two more days 'til the first 2 bites of the large, delectable main course!!!

Thanks for the prelude review, Lardy.

I've always been fond of Marv Wolfman's big outer space FF epic -- Byrne & Sinnott make it look absolutely gorgeous (and the Keith Pollard/Joe Sinnott art in the opening chapters is equally excellent IMO.) The whole arc is collected in a separate trade, titled "Fantastic Four: In Search of Galactus." I haven't read 214-221, but I know they're collected in FF Visionaries: JB volume Zero, so I'll check them out sometime.

I also think it's worth mentioning that in between 221 and 232, there was a brief run by the Moon Knight team of Doug Moench and Bill Sienkiwicz. I've never read it, but I've heard nothing positive about it. They certainly seem a strange choice for a FF creative team, although Moench did write some solid issues of Captain Mar-Vell's solo book. Point being that, despite some good work in the late 1970s, FF was by all accounts not in a good place at the time just before Byrne took over as writer/artist.

Fantastic Four #232

I hadn't read this issue for more than 20 years, as my memories of it were that it was an underwhelming start to Byrne's run. With 20/20 hindsight, however, Byrne's plan becomes clear: To bring the characters, and the book along with it, down to Earth, and re-establish why we're supposed to care for them. That may sound harsh, but while I've always loved Ben, I've had problems with various writers' interpretations of Sue, Reed, and Johnny. And after re-reading this issue, I have to say, he succeeds in making them all relatable and sympathetic. Sue is no cringing, cringe-worthy damsel here, she's quick-thinking, strong, and self-reliant. Johnny is surprisingly gentlemanly and vulnerable as he tries to patch things up with his on-again/off-again girlfriend, Frankie Ray. And Reed is resourceful and super-smart as always, but without coming off like an unfeeling, paternalistic jerk as he often did in the past. Ben is...Ben, but one particularly nice touch of Byrne's is that he introduces this tough-but-tender man-monster by showing him leaving a movie theatre with his girlfriend, Alicia Masters, and wiping away tears with a handkerchief. The film which moved Ben so much? "The Elephant Man."

The villain of the piece is Diablo the alchemist, a character whom Lee & Kirby would readily admit was not their best creation. Here, Byrne does nothing particularly exciting or innovative with him, but his plan is reasonably cunning and clever -- to pit the FF against avatars of the Four Elements, each one representing a particular threat to the powers of each FF member.

What almost ruins the story, and shows up Byrne as a relatively unseasoned writer, is the way he drags in another Marvel hero at the very last second, in a perfunctory fashion, to help save the day. But that's only on the last page, so despite that letdown, the story is entertaining overall.

One more quibble: Sue's hairdresser is a mincing, cowardly gay stereotype who runs away from danger, leaving Sue to fend for herself completely. His ditzy female assistant is equally cowardly and caricatured.

Artistically, Byrne is in fine form with the layouts and pencils, but it's clear that he was inking himself for the first time in years. Compared the pristine finishes of the best Byrne inkers of the past, such as Terry Austin and Pablo Marcos, it's rather jarring in its rough edges. OTOH, it fits the gritty (but not grim) feel that Byrne appears to have been going for, putting in the effort to make New York City as much a character in the book as the FF themselves.

A promising start, then, and its flaws are mostly forgivable. And the best is yet to come.

I really enjoyed Byrne's official first issue, 232, a lot. Entitled, "Back to Basics," the story achieves its mission statement by pretty much showing you what the book's concept and characters are and neatly wrapping up as a done-in-one. (I swear to God that this would be at least a five-issue arc in this day and age!)

Byrne introduces us to each of the four title characters separately. In each scenario, we get a brief glimpse into what they are like when not saving the world before promptly tossing each into the deep end against some individually dire threats. Even so, it's not a textbook, say, Len Wein scenario, where each of them end up at the same point of danger. The Thing needs the most immediate outside help, and the other three mostly get some traction by themselves, especially Sue and Reed.

Cleverly, Byrne has the Four find each other, so that he can then show that this is indeed a team that works together well. With Reed's guidance, they defeat three of the creatures. But again, belying formula, Byrne shows Johnny figuring out how to defeat the fire elemental on his own. If this was someone's first FF story, I'd imagine this was a perfect story to acclimate themselves to the characters and concepts.

And beyond being a technically good story, it was FUN! I smiled a lot while reading it because practically no one wants to tell a fun, self-contained, good old-fashioned superhero story anymore. While I wouldn't want all of Byrne's FF stories to be one-offs (and clearly they're not!), it's clear the man already knew how to so, even though his scripting cerdits had been very few at this point.

And the art! Byrne is comfort food to me, and I mean that in the best way possible. Even at this point, the man could draw and tell a story clearly and with some panache! If I open a Byrne book, I already know that I'm going to like the images he presents and will never have to worry about his visual storytelling falling short, especially in this, his prime. His Reed and Ben are already iconic this issue, and his Sue will be coming along soon. His Johnny is always solid, but we'll see if it ever gets as distinctive as the other three.

The caveats Fickles mentions are valid. Diablo is not all that memorable a villain. But I do love that quick scene that shows he's running things from an apartment building and rails at his snooping neighbor. Nice bit of humor! The hairdresser and Doc Strange cameos didn't bother me as much. Lots of civilians, gay or not, would shy away from such a threat, and I suppose Byrne needed a one-page resolution that Strange could be used to tie up. On the plus side, I enjoyed the civilian who risked her life to save Ben.

Overall, a wonderful start to Byrne's magnificent run on "The World's Greatest Comics Magazine". And the best is, indeed, yet to come!

LOL So true. And if it had been written by Hickman, it would have taken ten issues!



Agreed. I imagine that both Byrne and Marvel's then-EiC Jim Shooter made a deliberate effort to produce an issue that would be a good jumping-on point. For all that could be said about Shooter (and I've said a lot of it myself in the past,) he was always conscious of the need to hook first-time or lapsed readers.



This really is refreshing in the wait-for-the-trade times we live in. And besides, no one ever said that a trade has to have one single five-or-six-issue story.



True, but I think that in the context of the early 1980s, which was not only a less enlightened time, but also one in which reactionary views were on the rise, it's more than a little bothersome.



Yes. Me, too. I'm glad you mentioned that. Points to Byrne for making Ben's rescuer a woman.

Then again, there's some bias on our part in assuming the hairdresser must be gay. That's a bit of stereotyping by the reader. Not all male hairdressers are gay, I'd assume.

In any case I can give Byrne a pass. He intended for Northstar to be gay all along but couldn't do more than drop small hints because of editorial interference.Eventually, Northstar would become the most prominent gay superhero in comics.

Both are valid points well taken.

Which reminds me, Northstar has certainly come a long way since that heavy-handed coming-out issue of Alpha Flight a quarter-century ago. Marvel was such a hodge-podge back in the early 90s, lots of good stuff but also lots of dropped balls.

Definitely!

Also, back to the story at hand, I forgot to mention how Byrne immediately starts expanding what Sue can do with her powers. It shows that he is determined to give Sue her due from the get-go, and I like that he doesn't take his time doing so. Similarly, in his first FF scripts in 220-221, it is Sue who really saves the day. This is not at all the simpering Sue I read about in those Lee/Kirby stories circa issue 50!

Yeah, Byrne really made Sue come alive in his early issues.

IIRC, though, Byrne's interpretation of Sue does get weirder and rather unsettling during the Malice arc, but I'm getting way ahead of myself, because that's some forty issues from now.

Yeah, not to get too ahead of ourselves, but I think the major point of that arc was to show how powerful she really is and how much she deserves her place on the team for that reason in addition to others already obvious. She's clearly not the weak link after you read it, if there was any doubt before. It's unsettling, but she's being controlled. So it's not just some random "Sue's gone bad" story.

Fantastic Four #233

I've turned this strange little story over and over in my head for hours, and still can't think of much to say about it.

The story is a spotlight on Johnny, in which a condemned young man's final request is that Johnny (whom he hardly knew, except as a target for his bullying in high school) prove he was innocent of the crime which sent him to the electric chair. Rather disappointingly, considering the down-to-earth feel of the opening portion of this story, the killing turns out to have been a hit engineered by cybernetic crimelord Hammerhead (heretofore a Spider-Man villain.) That said, the story is almost saved by the twist ending in which, at the innocent delinquent's funeral, Johnny confronts the delinquents mother, and learns from her that she knew about his criminal career all along, and that Johnny is a true hero, the kind of boy a mother could be proud of. Points to Byrne for continuing to make Johnny easier to like with every issue.

"Mission for a Dead Man" was an unusual choice to be the second story in Byrne's run. Unusual, I think, because he chooses almost immediately to tell a solo tale of one of the Four, in this case Johnny. In my mind this would have fit in better later on in his run as a change in pace after he got his feet wet a little more with more stories featuring the whole crew.

One possibility for this choice was that maybe Byrne didn't consider this the start of his tenure since he'd already gotten his feet wet with the 12 issues he'd already done, albeit mostly with other writers. Another theory I tend to gravitate toward is that this might have been an inventory story he'd already done previously that might have been placed here to give him more lead time. The mostly standalone nature of the story leads me to believe that. Or maybe, Byrne had a story he wanted to tell and said, "hell with it!"

In any case it was not a bad story at all. The Torch gets the spotlight and shows some presumably rarely-seen sides of his character in that he gets to play detective and show some small amount of emotional vulnerability. I think it would have worked better if the solution to the mystery was a bit more mundane then bringing in Hammerhead of all things, but there were some good bits.

The story trope of exonerating a man on death row is turned on its head a bit with said man having already been put to death before the hero becomes involved and with him having also been guilty of crimes just as bad or worse. I like the connection to Johnny's childhood and how someone so heroic was once bullied by the same man whose last request he tries to fulfill.

Byrne's art is satisfying throughout. I especially like the early scene with Ben hellbent after Johnny pulls another thoughtless prank on him while Reed and Sue try to intervene. (The prank itself, as described, is amusingly meta and unintentionally foreshadows the job that will eventually lure Byrne away after a long run.) The fact that the priest delivering the final request is witness to this spectacle reminds me of how real-life family arguments tend to spill out even in the presence of outsiders. This one is particularly edgy and shows how sensitive Ben can be to his condition, even to the point of potentially killing Johnny in his rage if not stopped.

Another couple of sequences that were strikingly rendered by Byrne were the two black & white flashbacks to the murder Johnny is investigating. They were more than just B/W; they were starkly inked in a manner I found beautiful and haunting at the same time. Even after having established himself as a superstar on X-Men, he still shows experimentation and growth in his storytelling. In my opinion he shines even brighter illustrating his own stories in the coming years.

So, yeah, an odd choice for what I think of as his sophomore story and not a thorough home run, but this is a modern master who can still wow you with his craft in unexpected moments. And the best is definitely still to come because he's just getting warmed up!

I think you could be onto something here, Lardy. It may have been done in between that earlier FF 2-parter that Byrne wrote and drew and Byrne becoming the permanent FF writer/artist with 232, as a sort of "test" to see what he had in him as a writer.

That was a nice touch. It gave the story some added pathos that I liked. It also gave Johnny a reward for doing the right thing, even if it was not for the purpose he set out to accomplish.



Possibly. I doubt there would ever be any way to confirm it as writers and editors tend to forget the thinking for some of the major decisions over time, let alone minor ones like this.

Yes, I think even at this early stage, and even with all the flaws in the story, Byrne is showing flashes of his full potential as a writer.

And in re-reading my post, I realize now I should have said "the framed delinquent" instead of "the innocent delinquent." He was certainly no innocent.

Fick, are we doing another story today? I don't want to step on your toes in case you want to keep going first....

Thanks for being so courteous, Lardy, but I'm okay with either one of us going first. This being a busy week, I may not even manage to have my reviews ready until Friday, so go right ahead.

FF #234, entitled "The Man with the Power!", is an interesting third effort in Byrne's run, though one that's difficult to thoroughly recommend.

The titular person is Skip, a very ordinary family man who just happens to have rather extraordinary abilities, ones that he is actually unaware he possesses. Skip can make things happen just by wanting them to happen. We witness several small instances where a household chore is done in a blink and a traffic jam avoided, among other small accomplishments. Byrne gives us a flashback that shows how Skip got his power. When Skips boss sends him to New York, Skip finds himself involved in their latest adventure.

What's especially odd about this story is how it's both about Skip and NOT about Skip. Skip has only mild interaction with the FF, and the huge cosmic threat that surfaces is not caused or directly impacted by him. In effect Skip is there to be a huge deus ex machina to clean up behind the threat so that New York and many of the major cities of Earth aren't left in shambles at the end. In fact, the FF never become aware of Skip's power, and the story leads into next issue's clash with the being behind all of the devastation with Skip's role (and his power) ended at the conclusion.

So the story comes off rather odd, and I have mixed feelings about it. The idea for Skip itself is actually very much in fitting with the FF's overall concept, but the execution feels disjointed and kind of pointless in the end.

The story reminded me a bit of an episode of the cartoon series Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends called "The Fantastic Mr. Frump" about a homeless man who receives a similar ability to alter reality but is fully aware of it. In that story, the other threat is Doctor Doom, but both play into our protagonists' worries.

What is not disputable for me here was Byrne's artwork. I love those opening pages where Byrne focuses on Skip's life. It shows Byrne has as much skill illustrating mundane sequences as he does, well, fantastic ones. I love, for example, the designs on Skip's bedroom carpet, bedspread, and even his pajamas. A lot of other artists would have skimped on the details of such a setting, but I think those are some of the best pages in the issue. And for my money, Byrne's rubble is at least as good as Perez's! If there's anything to criticize, I'd say his shots of the larger ruins of the cityscape aren't all that impressive, but he makes up for it with a shot of the Thing holding a bridge together and especially on the last page reveal of the being threatening the Earth.

I'm not going to call the story a bust. It certainly is entertaining. But it is kind of an odd duck and a tough nut to crack when you wonder what Byrne's larger intent was with Skip, if not just the deus ex machina. It certainly does have its moments.

Fantastic Four #234

Good call on the Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends episode, Lardy. I remember that one more than some of the others, because it was written by my heroine Christy Marx.

I think it's also worth pondering that at the time this story was published in the early 1980s, it had become very trendy for comic book creators in both the mainstream and the indie sectors to do homages to Will Eisner's "The Spirit."

"The Man With the Power" is Byrne's entry in the Eisner homage sweepstakes, but unlike Eisner, who combined the mundane and the fantastical with a sharply ironic viewpoint, Byrne is a little too reverent to the conventions of super-hero storytelling for this little experiment to be a success, in my opinion.

Here I also must admit that I have never been a fan of the whole "omnipotent wimp" trope which was popular at Marvel at the time. Jim Shooter seemed to be particularly enamored of this trope, as witness those excruciating stories with the Molecule Man in Avengers, Secret Wars, and Secret Wars II. This makes me wonder if maybe Byrne did this story on a dare from Shooter (at this point, they were thick as thieves, though their relationship would deteriorate as the decade wore on,) and maybe Byrne's heart wasn't completely in it.

Whatever the truth behind this story is, "The Man With the Power" falls flat for me. The nicest thing I can say is that it sets the stage for the confrontation in the next issue with Ego the Living Planet, the first balls-to-the-wall cosmic slugfest of Byrne's FF run.

I remember liking it originally but eventually getting tired of it because THEY RE-RAN THAT EPISODE ABOUT A BILLION TIMES!!!!

Seriously, at some point, they kept airing S&HAF for a year or two it seems without producing ANY new episodes!!!



I must confess that I saw no obvious Spirit connection in the story. The main trope of that strip that I know from my limited experience with it is the whole titles worked into the backgrounds thing. Could you go into more detail with this comparison for my curiosity?



I doubt Byrne produced this story under Shooter's direction or suggestion. Whatever their relationship at the time, I'd be surprised if Shooter's hand was that firm on reigning Byrne at the time. I suppose it's possible, though, as Byrne was still a neophyte writer.

I still think that Byrne had a purpose with the story that just doesn't come across as well thematically as he intended. I've seen many writers with a lot more experience produce stories a lot less interesting, but I feel I can chalk this one up to some growing pains for him as a writer. it's just missing one or two plot connections to make it resonate better. Maybe Skip finally realizes he had this great power and lost it just when he really needs it to save a loved one? Maybe the FF return from their battle with ego, and Reed is mystified as to how everything got fixed? It just needs something to make it feel like Skip was more than a deus ex machina to make it more satisfying.

Re: SM&HAF, you're absolutely right, Lardy, network cartoons on Saturday mornings in the 80s tended to be too heavy on the reruns. Syndicated cartoons in the 80s tended to have the opposite problem -- with their 65-episode quota (so that there could be new episodes on weekday afternoons 5 days a week for 13 weeks), there were too many episodes that were pure filler and should have been rejected at the first-draft script stage. But that's a whole other discussion.

Re: Spirit comparisons, I would imagine that Eisner would have had Skip sacrifice his life to save the universe, but everyone else would assume he died of natural causes. I know it's a bummer of a scenario, but it's closer to a real dramatic arc, and Eisner's stories often had downbeat endings like that (in one of his most famous ones, a regular guy discovers he can fly, only to be shot down.)

I like this scenario you came up with:



That one, too, would have given the story a clear arc.

Fantastic Four #235 ("Four Against Ego!") is, as Fick describes it, "the first balls-to-the-wall cosmic slugfest of Byrne's FF run". Indeed it is, as the FF face none other than Ego, the Living Planet in just Byrne's fourth issue in his long run.

The issue could technically be viewed as the conclusion of a 2-parter as the FF dealt with his threat to Earth last issue and ended with them discovering Ego as the source of all of the destruction. I don't feel it's a true 2-parter, though, especially as the first issue was mostly about Skip, who has no presence this issue (or presumably, ever again). It's another thing that makes the previous issue a bit of an odd duck.

But taken on its own, this is definitely Byrne getting more than just his feet wet with the cosmic side of the FF, as he jumps right into the deep end. This one evokes the best that Lee/Kirby ever offered as he takes a creation of theirs that originally appeared during their Thor run and has him/it face the Fantastic Four, which feels like a very natural switch to make and an inspired choice for Byrne.

The story is brilliant in that Byrne makes it both big and small in its focus. While the threat they are facing is huge, Byrne lets all four heroes shine and play a role. This is especially so of one Ben Grimm, who is alone after his fellows have to drop out one-by-one. Only he can endure the fiery depths of Ego to deliver what they've bet on being the solution to defeating Ego and saving Earth by doing so.

Byrne's art is up to the challenge as he sufficiently sells the alien terrain of Ego in several definitive shots. Much of the backgrounds are of Ego's interior which suitably evokes the interior of the human body in such films as "Fantastic Voyage". In some moments these backgrounds seem a little too generic, but he more than makes up for his stunning depictions of the title characters. I found myself especially enamored of his Ben Grimm in this story. The heavy inks between the cracks of Ben's rocky hide are just so deep and defining that I'm reminded of why I've always found Byrne's rendering of the Thing so iconic. In my mind it exceeds Kirby and is way above any other third person's depiction.

I must digress a moment to extol the virtues of the first-rate printing of these Fantastic Four Omnibuses that reprint Byrne's great run. They really do his work absolute justice and make it look as great as it deserves to look. In stories like this Ego tale, this fact is really perfectly underlined. I honestly can't recommend Marvel Omnibuses highly enough, especially to see runs you love the most displayed with optimum production vales. They are truly a steal for cover price, and many can easily be found for significantly less.

We also get an acceleration of the Frankie Ray subplot as something is teased, however vaguely, to suggest there is more to this character than meets the eye. Longtime FF fans know how this plays out, but it's a pleasure no less to anticipate it again.

An excellent fourth effort, and by then, any potential naysayers of his ability to write and draw the FF and be considered a worthy successor to Lee and Kirby just had to have been given reason to at least pause with this story.