Ahhh Lyta Trevor was AWESOME. I thought Geoff Johns was really going to bring her back in a meaningful way
Yay! Another Lyta Trevor fan! Cheers, Andy!
I think Lyta coming back in JSA and then being abruptly written out along with Hector Hall was one of the many instances of the whole Infinite Crisis build-up wrecking many DC writers' original plans with no warning and very bad planning.
Oh God, poor Lyta. I shudder just thinking about the mess Robinson made out of her in Earth-2, just like he did with everyone else.
Because of COURSE the last Amazon, Wonder Woman's DAUGHTER, had to be brainwashed and nuts serving a male villain. OF COURSE. God I hate him.
The only positive aspect I could think is that Hector and Lyta would most likely have been spared by Flashpoint if they were inside the Dreaming. I can't even understand why Hector and Lyta had to die in the first place. I mean, look at the guy they replaced Hector with for Doctor Fate. Someone who just happened to have a similar name to the first Fate? And did he even have a personality or was he just... there?
I think Robinson made the connection between Fury and Female Furies and just ran it too far. I also kind of felt that the whole Earth-2 being attacked by the Fourth World was kind of fitting, since Kirby/Marvel basically destroyed/transformed what comics were before.
Go with the good and you'll be like them; go with the evil and you'll be worse than them.- Portuguese Proverb
Re: Rebirth - Still set in the DCFU? Still not interested. (The only title that had a shot of getting me to buy it was 'Titans' due to my love of Lilith and all things groovy 70s Titans, but then I saw that my #1 most disliked artist in comics, Brett Booth, is drawing it. His artwork, especially his faces, physically repulses me.)
Re: Circe - I like her but I don't think any Wonder Woman writer should be beholden to using her (or Ares or Cheetah or whoever), just like I don't think any Batman writer should be beholden to using Joker or Penguin or Ra's al Ghul or whoever. In fact, I would MUCH PREFER it if writers did move away from the same old, same old 'major' villains and start utilising and developing DC's huge back-catalogue of interesting 'minor' villains more.
Re: Gail Simone - SO good to see others who share my view that she is an extremely overrated writer. I echo everything Fuzzy Barbarian said about her writing, especially his/her comment that she seems to think people talk like internet commenters! Her dialogue has always bugged me and you have finally made me realise why! I think that might be why I also find her humour so unfunny too. Another problem I have with her writing is that there is a really nasty streak running through it, in terms of how she treats certain characters. When the writers under Dan Didio's regime are finally held to account, Nuremberg style, for the way they have butchered and debased so many of the great characters in the DCU, Gail Simone should absolutely be up there with them.
Re: Wonder Woman - All that said, I actually thought Simone's first story arc on Wonder Woman, 'Ends of the Earth', was really good. The fabulous Aaron Lopresti artwork helped. As did an appearance by the ultra-obscure DC character, Stalker. It became a fairly average run after that though and then went totally off the rails when the ludicrous Genocide got introduced. I echo mostly everyone else's praise for the George Perez run though. If you're going to read any post-Crisis Wonder Woman stories, read them. I've heard good things about the Greg Rucka run but I couldn't last beyond the first three boring issues. He's another writer I find extremely overrated though (not bad, just nowhere near as good as everyone makes him out to be) so opinions may vary.
Re: Fury - Infinity Inc. is a shameful blind spot in my comics collection so I only know her from random appearances elsewhere in the DCU, but I've always liked her as well. I couldn't believe it when she and Hector got killed off so suddenly and nonsensically in JSA. After all that time building up their return to the DCU, and then they just drop dead on a random snowy mountain somewhere?!? Why would the writers/editors do that?!? There MUST be a behind-the-scenes story about that! Like, maybe some proprietary issue with the Vertigo editors or... or... some other reason I can't think of right now? I just find it unfathomable that DC would just kill off these two potential-filled characters for absolutely no reason. (This is Dan Didio's DCU though, so...)
I mean, look at the guy they replaced Hector with for Doctor Fate. Someone who just happened to have a similar name to the first Fate? And did he even have a personality or was he just... there?
I actually really liked Kent V. Nelson in the Countdown to Mystery series by Gerber. It was a shame he died before it finished. Subsequent uses of the character in JSA and elsewhere were quite bland.
I am digging Khalid Nassour as the new Fate, and I hope that series somehow survives into Rebirth.
I'd recommend reading the Perez WW run (though I think it is overrated to some extent, while other flaws were beyond Perez's control and were editorial's fault.) And while the Jimenez WW run gets a lot of criticism, I think it's mostly unwarranted; yes, sometimes it gets awkward and wordy, but it's also one of the few times where WW had the larger-than-life, semi-camp tone that I think works best for her book.
As far as Simone, I'm generally on the same page as you, Fuzzy Barbarian. Even stuff of hers that I really liked at the time, such the "Rose and Thorn" mini-series, does not hold up very well. In fairness, very little that DC published in the mid-2000s and beyond holds up very well, in my opinion.
Yeah, I want to read the Perez run, and it's even got an omnibus, but I've heard it's pretty wordy, and I'm still working my way through the third Uncanny X-Men omnibus. Just can't deal with another wordy old comic. I'll get around to it one of these days
When it comes to Wonder Woman, I'm not even sure what I'm looking for half the time. I don't want generic warrior woman crap, that's for sure. But if it's just... I dunno, bureaucratic negotiations and the like (?), I have Aquaman and Black Panther for that. I guess Diana has a more mythic feel than those two... but the upcoming Black Panther run seems like it'll have that feel too, so... huh. And I really, REALLY hate the "I don't understand human customs" type of stories. It's fine for maybe a supporting character for a while, but for MAIN characters, it's just boring and cliche. So THAT version of Diana is on my list of characters I hate adn actively avoid, along with almost all characters written like that. The only exception is Mera in Aquaman, because she barely does it and it's more tolerable there.
Originally Posted by Blacula
Re: Circe - I like her but I don't think any Wonder Woman writer should be beholden to using her (or Ares or Cheetah or whoever), just like I don't think any Batman writer should be beholden to using Joker or Penguin or Ra's al Ghul or whoever. In fact, I would MUCH PREFER it if writers did move away from the same old, same old 'major' villains and start utilising and developing DC's huge back-catalogue of interesting 'minor' villains more.
Re: Gail Simone - SO good to see others who share my view that she is an extremely overrated writer. I echo everything Fuzzy Barbarian said about her writing, especially his/her comment that she seems to think people talk like internet commenters! Her dialogue has always bugged me and you have finally made me realise why! I think that might be why I also find her humour so unfunny too. Another problem I have with her writing is that there is a really nasty streak running through it, in terms of how she treats certain characters. When the writers under Dan Didio's regime are finally held to account, Nuremberg style, for the way they have butchered and debased so many of the great characters in the DCU, Gail Simone should absolutely be up there with them.
You're welcome
The first time I realised why I hated her dialogue was I think her first issue of Birds of Prey, when this happened: Guy: I like your stockings. Black Canary: You and most of the straight male population. Gail Simone: Is this unit correct in depicting how the human speaks? 1011100?
Seriously, who the fuck talks like that? Just say "most men do" or something! Her Batgirl run had a similar problem, but it wasn't as bad there. No, there, Simone just really, REALLY wanted to be Joss Whedon/Brian Michael Bendis and capture a young person's voice, but it fell flat because I'm pretty sure she, like Scott Lobdell, doesn't actually know any young people and thinks nonchalant talks-like-this-really-quickly-with-this-weird-style-of-writing is all that's needed. Actually, typing that out, was DC trying to balance the scales with the Stewart/Tarr batgirl run? To far in the opposite direction, guys!
I feel the same about Circe, Blac. I mean, I feel that writers shouldn't feel pressured to using a character if that character isn't essential to the series. But I get that it can be annoying when characters aren't used (hey, I'm a Cassandra Cain fan), especially if they SHOULD be used. Something else else that made me really dislike Scott Snyder for a while is his reason for not using Damian Wayne in "Endgame" - Scott has a son around Damian's age, so he finds it hard to write him... wut. It doesn't matter, you're writing a Bat-family story, SO USE THE WHOLE BAT-FAMILY! Plus it threw off the timeline of the Bat-books. But with VILLAINS... using the same guys over and over again can feel stale. As much as I hate them these days, the Court of Owls, when initially introduced, felt refreshing. Sure, they got stale real quick and are now really overused, but at first it was nice not to have another Joker/Ra's story. Part of what I love about Grant Morrison's Batman is taht, for most of its life, new villains were used, and they were so different from what came before that it was so fresh! and when the old rogues DID return, it was so much more special!
Originally Posted by Dave Hackett
I am digging Khalid Nassour as the new Fate, and I hope that series somehow survives into Rebirth.
Sorry mate, that thing is at cancellation numbers. I feel like DC might bring back Fate for the JSA or Earth-2, but I can see the new Fate fitting in alright if they don't use one of the older Fates. Whatever happens, I don't think the SERIES is surviving past Rebirth. If any comic with cancellation-level print sales is gonna survive, it's Midnighter -- which apparently sells well digitally, and has a vocal fanbase as well as LGBT coverage -- and I don't think that's making it either (pretty sure he'll be a supporting character in Nightwing or Batman, given his newfound popularity).
Last edited by Fuzzy Barbarian; 03/30/1601:19 AM.
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.
Some Wonder Woman thoughts since every one seems to be enjoying the digression: enjoyed Perez; also really enjoyed Jimenez's run which I think is greatly underappreciated and misunderstood; liked Rucka's run at first but it got really boring really fast and felt like he was trying too hard; didn't like Simon's run either; and I actually feel that John Byrne's run was pretty terrific. Byrne did something that almost no WW writers have done in decades: he treated WW as an awesome superhero series, and it felt run and refreshing! When people think of the most iconic female superhero of all time, they think of Wonder Woman. So while I udnerstand playing up mythology and other stuff, DC should really embrace and enjoy the superhero element of their icon.
And a question for everyone: what's the story with Superman? It's the pre-DCnU Superman? Meaning what? The post-Crisis Superman that is married to Lois Lane? And he has a kid or something? Who can even keep track of this stuff anymore. It's easy to forget that before DCnU, Didio had already ruined the old universe too for a couple of years from about 2003 to the present.
Some Wonder Woman thoughts since every one seems to be enjoying the digression: enjoyed Perez; also really enjoyed Jimenez's run which I think is greatly underappreciated and misunderstood; liked Rucka's run at first but it got really boring really fast and felt like he was trying too hard; didn't like Simon's run either; and I actually feel that John Byrne's run was pretty terrific. Byrne did something that almost no WW writers have done in decades: he treated WW as an awesome superhero series, and it felt run and refreshing! When people think of the most iconic female superhero of all time, they think of Wonder Woman. So while I udnerstand playing up mythology and other stuff, DC should really embrace and enjoy the superhero element of their icon.
And a question for everyone: what's the story with Superman? It's the pre-DCnU Superman? Meaning what? The post-Crisis Superman that is married to Lois Lane? And he has a kid or something? Who can even keep track of this stuff anymore. It's easy to forget that before DCnU, Didio had already ruined the old universe too for a couple of years from about 2003 to the present.
I'm not sure, but I think Superman features the New 52 Superman. I knwo for a fact that Action Comics features both him AND Pre-New 52 Superman, the one from Lois and Clark who's got a son named Jonathan. He was apparently in the New 52 the entire time, and was even there when Darkseid first invaded, but always stays out of the action unless truly needed. He and Lois are going under Clark and Lois WHITE, and Jon doesn't know his heritage. It's actually a decent series, with things like Superman being worried Hank Henshaw will turn into Cyborg Superman, and addresses why he ISN'T Cyborg Superman. Kinda like a more upbeat and sentimental Old Man Logan.
As for the old universe, I'm of the mind that most of it sucked after Final Crisis. Aside from the Bat-books -- which were really at their peak in that time (aside from poor treatment of Cassandra Cain)-- Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, it wasn't a good time. The Flash books got screwed over with Barry's return and the true mediocrity and genuinely bad stories that followed, Wonder Woman was in a bad place, Superman was doing the "Grounded" crap, Johns used Blackest Night and Final Crisis as excuses to kill off characters that replaced Silver Age characters -- even those HE HIMSELF CREATED in the case of Zoom -- and just... ehhhh, not much good. But at least the Bat-books were good! And Booster Gold and Blue Beetle! Admittedly, I haven't read some of the apparently better stuff like the "Black Ring" arc from Action Comics and the apparently okay Aquaman stuff.
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.
Some Wonder Woman thoughts since every one seems to be enjoying the digression: enjoyed Perez; also really enjoyed Jimenez's run which I think is greatly underappreciated and misunderstood; liked Rucka's run at first but it got really boring really fast and felt like he was trying too hard; didn't like Simon's run either; and I actually feel that John Byrne's run was pretty terrific. Byrne did something that almost no WW writers have done in decades: he treated WW as an awesome superhero series, and it felt run and refreshing! When people think of the most iconic female superhero of all time, they think of Wonder Woman. So while I udnerstand playing up mythology and other stuff, DC should really embrace and enjoy the superhero element of their icon.
And a question for everyone: what's the story with Superman? It's the pre-DCnU Superman? Meaning what? The post-Crisis Superman that is married to Lois Lane? And he has a kid or something? Who can even keep track of this stuff anymore. It's easy to forget that before DCnU, Didio had already ruined the old universe too for a couple of years from about 2003 to the present.
First off: Despite that many of us are legitimately pissed off at Byrne for making an even bigger mess of Donna Troy's backstory, he created Dark Angel, my ABSOLUTE favorite WW and Titans villain, so he gets a pass.
Second: Regarding Superman. At the end of Convergence, the Superman and Lois Lane of the pre-Flashpoint DCU ended up stuck in the DCnU along with their infant son, Jon. As Superman: Lois and Clark details, they've been living in the DCnU ever since the Justice League first fought Darkseid. They're going to be the main characters in Action Comics following Rebirth, and their son is teaming up with Damian Wayne in "Super-Sons."
^ Dare I ask why you hate Dinah Lance? I thought, as a Roy/Lian Harper fan, you might like that member of the Arrow family too.
Black Canary used to be my favourite female character once upon a time, but I really soured on her in the 2000s. I think she can be an amazing character when characterised correctly though, and IMO could and should be the #2 heroic femme in the DCU (after Wonder Woman) in terms of stature/respect/recognition/etc.
Re: the pre-Flashpoint DCU - Total agreement that it almost completely sucked (other than a few bright points like Morrison's awesome Batman). I hadn't been enjoying it for a long time so Flashpoint did me a favour in a way. I am in no rush to return to a DCU in which Superman suddenly seems to have produced a pre-teen son out of nowhere. (Seriously, I thought I was following Superman up until Flashpoint and I have no memory of this "son" appearing.)
I would actually love to return to the DCU of 1985 right before Crisis hit. That is my favourite version for almost all of these characters. I'd love to see DC develop an alternate history in which the 5 surviving Earths didn't merge and we got to read the continuing adventures of the characters on those different Earths, incorporating all of the best elements of the post-Crisis DCU (like Booster Gold, JLI, Suicide Squad, etc.) along the way.
It's easy to forget that before DCnU, Didio had already ruined the old universe too for a couple of years from about 2003 to the present.
Absolutely. I blame Superman #200, which wasn't the first bad story of course, but was the point at which they started ####ing up the universe ITSELF rather than just individual characters. Of course, other stuff like the Legion "threeboot" and "Graduation Day" followed, with more to come...
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Barbarian
I'm not sure, but I think Superman features the New 52 Superman.
Not as the lead character. Here's the cover and solicit for the newest Superman #1:
Quote
SUPERMAN #1 Written by PETER J. TOMASI Art and cover by PATRICK GLEASON and MICK GRAY Variant cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. “THE SON OF SUPERMAN” Chapter One The Last Son of Krypton must decide whether to help his young son use his new and rapidly increasing abilities, or hide them from the world. THE CREATORS: The team supreme that brought fans the adventures of Damian Wayne in BATMAN AND ROBIN returns for the adventures of Superman and his offspring. On sale JUNE 15 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Note that what he's ripping off to reveal the blue suit & classic \S/ is the black suit the bearded pre-DCFU Superman's been wearing in Superman: Lois & Clark.
This is also the same guy who's appearing in every other solicit & announcement featuring Superman, including Justice League, Action Comics, Super Sons and so on.
Apparently, the last arc of the current titles is a team-up with a load of "Super" characters, including N52 Superman, pre-DCFU Superman, Supergirl and so on. Either there or in the DCU Rebirth one-shot, something's clearly happening to the guy with the high collar.
Originally Posted by Blacula
Re: the pre-Flashpoint DCU - Total agreement that it almost completely sucked (other than a few bright points like Morrison's awesome Batman). I hadn't been enjoying it for a long time so Flashpoint did me a favour in a way. I am in no rush to return to a DCU in which Superman suddenly seems to have produced a pre-teen son out of nowhere. (Seriously, I thought I was following Superman up until Flashpoint and I have no memory of this "son" appearing.)
As was said, it happened in Convergence.
My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
^ Huh, weird thing those solicitations. New 52 Superman is DEFINITELY sticking around though, Jurgens said as much on the panel itself, and that he'll be investigating Pre-New 52 Superman, as will Lex.
Originally Posted by Sarcasm Kid
Also, I will say this about Gail Simone.
Not even her writing is enough to make me stop hating Dinah Lance.
Huh, that's the first I've heard of anyone HATING her. I just find her to be a kinda boring character, though I haven;t read much of her. I dunno, she doesn't have much of a personality based on things I've read. I may give Hal Jordan crap for being an idiot, but at elast he's GOT a personality.
Originally Posted by Blacula
^ Dare I ask why you hate Dinah Lance? I thought, as a Roy/Lian Harper fan, you might like that member of the Arrow family too.
Re: the pre-Flashpoint DCU - Total agreement that it almost completely sucked (other than a few bright points like Morrison's awesome Batman). I hadn't been enjoying it for a long time so Flashpoint did me a favour in a way. I am in no rush to return to a DCU in which Superman suddenly seems to have produced a pre-teen son out of nowhere. (Seriously, I thought I was following Superman up until Flashpoint and I have no memory of this "son" appearing.)
Isn't it a sore point for BoP and Canary fans to call her a member of the Arrow family? And apparently, NOBODY liked her marrying Oliver Queen.
I think his son was born during Convergence.
Last edited by Fuzzy Barbarian; 03/30/1604:04 AM.
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.
^ Dare I ask why you hate Dinah Lance? I thought, as a Roy/Lian Harper fan, you might like that member of the Arrow family too.
Black Canary used to be my favourite female character once upon a time, but I really soured on her in the 2000s. I think she can be an amazing character when characterised correctly though, and IMO could and should be the #2 heroic femme in the DCU (after Wonder Woman) in terms of stature/respect/recognition/etc.
Re: the pre-Flashpoint DCU - Total agreement that it almost completely sucked (other than a few bright points like Morrison's awesome Batman). I hadn't been enjoying it for a long time so Flashpoint did me a favour in a way. I am in no rush to return to a DCU in which Superman suddenly seems to have produced a pre-teen son out of nowhere. (Seriously, I thought I was following Superman up until Flashpoint and I have no memory of this "son" appearing.)
I would actually love to return to the DCU of 1985 right before Crisis hit. That is my favourite version for almost all of these characters. I'd love to see DC develop an alternate history in which the 5 surviving Earths didn't merge and we got to read the continuing adventures of the characters on those different Earths, incorporating all of the best elements of the post-Crisis DCU (like Booster Gold, JLI, Suicide Squad, etc.) along the way.
Her washing her hands of Roy and considering him a lost cause in "Rise of Arsenal" when she finally had the opportunity to actually help him. I've hated her ever since. And I'm talking legitimate hatred. I tried rereading the opening issues for the Birds of Prey series after Blackest Night and I just got incredibly uncomfortable and angry every time she was in a panel.
Her washing her hands of Roy and considering him a lost cause in "Rise of Arsenal" when she finally had the opportunity to actually help him. I've hated her ever since. And I'm talking legitimate hatred. I tried rereading the opening issues for the Birds of Prey series after Blackest Night and I just got incredibly uncomfortable and angry every time she was in a panel.
I mean, to be fair, EVERYONE was kinda an inconsiderate asshole in Rise of Arsenal, even Dick Grayson of all people. I like to just eject that story from my memory... man, I used to think Roy was a cool character, being a single dad and all, then they stripped that away for whatever reason... then jsut made him a generic "talkative Scott Lobdell character" in the New 52... poor Roy, hopefully Abnett treats him better, because while I've never read him that much, he has potential. But I guess everyone from the original Titans had potential, it just wasn't realised that well beyond Dick, Wally, Tempest (even if he was underused) and maybe Donna.
Rise of Arsenal and Cry for Justice I feel were just weird attempts to reinvent Roy Harper's character. Like, did DC realise Jason Todd was being underutilised as their Bucky Barnes, and decide to have another go at it? And then they did it AGAIN with Dick Grayson with Forever Evil, though Grayson against all odds is amazingly good. I guess third time, and a talented creative team, is the charm.
Last edited by Fuzzy Barbarian; 03/30/1604:11 AM.
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.
Her washing her hands of Roy and considering him a lost cause in "Rise of Arsenal" when she finally had the opportunity to actually help him. I've hated her ever since. And I'm talking legitimate hatred. I tried rereading the opening issues for the Birds of Prey series after Blackest Night and I just got incredibly uncomfortable and angry every time she was in a panel.
I mean, to be fair, EVERYONE was kinda an inconsiderate asshole in Rise of Arsenal, even Dick Grayson of all people. I like to just eject that story from my memory... man, I used to think Roy was a cool character, being a single dad and all, then they stripped that away for whatever reason... then jsut made him a generic "talkative Scott Lobdell character" in the New 52... poor Roy, hopefully Abnett treats him better, because while I've never read him that much, he has potential. But I guess everyone from the original Titans had potential, it just wasn't realised that well beyond Dick, Wally, Tempest (even if he was underused) and maybe Donna.
Rise of Arsenal and Cry for Justice I feel were just weird attempts to reinvent Roy Harper's character. Like, did DC realise Jason Todd was being underutilised as their Bucky Barnes, and decide to have another go at it? And then they did it AGAIN with Dick Grayson with Forever Evil, though Grayson against all odds is amazingly good. I guess third time, and a talented creative team, is the charm.
Oh no, believe me, no one on this site knows more than me how horrible the characters in ROA acted. You should've seen my posts when it first came out.
It's also a mutual hatred shared with Green Arrow. Like, the whole reason they killed Lian and mutilated Roy was for the sake of shaking up the Arrow Family because of the botched marriage storyline. Roy and Lian didn't deserve to be jerked around because of Oliver and Dinah.
Dinah grates me especially because she spent most of ROA walking around stoic and lacking in emotions towards nearly everything, and that she didn't help Roy even when she could angered me as someone with abandonment issues of my own. Dinah's supposed to be better than that, but she acts just as inconsiderate as Ollie tends to do. And Roy's the one who pays for it.
And almost no one calls Dinah out on what she did, which feels especially hypocritical considering Ollie constantly has his screw-ups concerning Roy thrown back at him on a daily basis. There was that one part in Birds of Prey when Dinah was forced to relive her worst mistakes, but I felt it would've meant more if another, actual person had specifically called her out on what she did to Roy instead of mental torture.
Oh, and her acting like Ollie getting raped by Shado was ollie cheating on her... I look forward to when she dies.
'Rise of Arsenal' and 'Whine About Justice' don't exist. Please report to the science lab to have your memory chips replaced.
Yeah, I really need to get those fixed. I'm also remembering this thing called Civil War... and something about Fear Itself? And this weird, intrusive thing called Avengers Vs. X-Men? I dunno, weird...
Oh, and holy crap another Australian! One who is up at weird-ass hours!
Originally Posted by Sarcasm Kid
Oh no, believe me, no one on this site knows more than me how horrible the characters in ROA acted. You should've seen my posts when it first came out.
It's also a mutual hatred shared with Green Arrow. Like, the whole reason they killed Lian and mutilated Roy was for the sake of shaking up the Arrow Family because of the botched marriage storyline. Roy and Lian didn't deserve to be jerked around because of Oliver and Dinah.
Dinah grates me especially because she spent most of ROA walking around stoic and lacking in emotions towards nearly everything, and that she didn't help Roy even when she could angered me as someone with abandonment issues of my own. Dinah's supposed to be better than that, but she acts just as inconsiderate as Ollie tends to do. And Roy's the one who pays for it.
And almost no one calls Dinah out on what she did, which feels especially hypocritical considering Ollie constantly has his screw-ups concerning Roy thrown back at him on a daily basis. There was that one part in Birds of Prey when Dinah was forced to relive her worst mistakes, but I felt it would've meant more if another, actual person had specifically called her out on what she did to Roy instead of mental torture.
Oh, and her acting like Ollie getting raped by Shado was ollie cheating on her... I look forward to when she dies.
Oh yeeeaaah, forgot about the Shado rape thing... okay, I get it. Everything else could also be applied to, well, everyone in RoA, so I'm gonna give her a pass on that. But the Shado thing... yeah. Oh, I forgot, there's also the "send-off" for Connor Hawke, which had him lose his ability to ability to do archery but making up for it by being a much more inadequate hand-to-hand fighter, and Dinah thinking that was a happy ending for him... I think. That's what I've heard at least.
There's a fine line between not listening and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life.
Her washing her hands of Roy and considering him a lost cause in "Rise of Arsenal" when she finally had the opportunity to actually help him.
Perhaps Dinah wanted to help, but heard about Roy abusing dead cats in alleyways. That's tough for anyone to deal with.
Originally Posted by Blacula
Re: Circe - I like her but I don't think any Wonder Woman writer should be beholden to using her (or Ares or Cheetah or whoever), just like I don't think any Batman writer should be beholden to using Joker or Penguin or Ra's al Ghul or whoever. In fact, I would MUCH PREFER it if writers did move away from the same old, same old 'major' villains and start utilising and developing DC's huge back-catalogue of interesting 'minor' villains more..
Of course, if writers did inject a whole load of great new villains, would they properly reimbursed by DC? Their entire history would suggest not. So, I don't blame them for taking the ideas elsewhere. It's just a shame that no other hero universe has the same appeal for me as the DC one.
Originally Posted by Blacula
When the writers under Dan Didio's regime are finally held to account, Nuremberg style, ...
Personally, I think second division Bundesliga footy is too good for 'em...
This thread has certainly made me realise how disconnected I am from DCU. I never really followed particular names. I recognise names even less, the fewer Big 2 titles I buy. Currently none.
What also strikes me is that I feel I've missed out on absolutely nothing of interest. If only I'd stopped reading before Rise of Arse/ Fart of Justice. That was truly awful. Even by standards set so low by DC, that every issue had the chance of a crossover with Marvel's Mole Men, that was complete rubbish.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Her washing her hands of Roy and considering him a lost cause in "Rise of Arsenal" when she finally had the opportunity to actually help him. I've hated her ever since. And I'm talking legitimate hatred. I tried rereading the opening issues for the Birds of Prey series after Blackest Night and I just got incredibly uncomfortable and angry every time she was in a panel.
I mean, to be fair, EVERYONE was kinda an inconsiderate asshole in Rise of Arsenal, even Dick Grayson of all people. I like to just eject that story from my memory... man, I used to think Roy was a cool character, being a single dad and all, then they stripped that away for whatever reason... then jsut made him a generic "talkative Scott Lobdell character" in the New 52... poor Roy, hopefully Abnett treats him better, because while I've never read him that much, he has potential. But I guess everyone from the original Titans had potential, it just wasn't realised that well beyond Dick, Wally, Tempest (even if he was underused) and maybe Donna.
Rise of Arsenal and Cry for Justice I feel were just weird attempts to reinvent Roy Harper's character. Like, did DC realise Jason Todd was being underutilised as their Bucky Barnes, and decide to have another go at it? And then they did it AGAIN with Dick Grayson with Forever Evil, though Grayson against all odds is amazingly good. I guess third time, and a talented creative team, is the charm.
Oh no, believe me, no one on this site knows more than me how horrible the characters in ROA acted. You should've seen my posts when it first came out.
It's also a mutual hatred shared with Green Arrow. Like, the whole reason they killed Lian and mutilated Roy was for the sake of shaking up the Arrow Family because of the botched marriage storyline. Roy and Lian didn't deserve to be jerked around because of Oliver and Dinah.
Dinah grates me especially because she spent most of ROA walking around stoic and lacking in emotions towards nearly everything, and that she didn't help Roy even when she could angered me as someone with abandonment issues of my own. Dinah's supposed to be better than that, but she acts just as inconsiderate as Ollie tends to do. And Roy's the one who pays for it.
And almost no one calls Dinah out on what she did, which feels especially hypocritical considering Ollie constantly has his screw-ups concerning Roy thrown back at him on a daily basis. There was that one part in Birds of Prey when Dinah was forced to relive her worst mistakes, but I felt it would've meant more if another, actual person had specifically called her out on what she did to Roy instead of mental torture.
Oh, and her acting like Ollie getting raped by Shado was ollie cheating on her... I look forward to when she dies.
While I understand what you are saying, I think you're going to frustrate yourself to no end if you disassociate with characters over one bad story/writer. Every character has had some rotten stuff done with them and your blacklist will just grow exponentially. It's one thing to avoid Robinson and his storytelling, or characters who are portrayed poorly on a consistent basis, but swearing off of entire groups of characters over aberrant stories is going to drive you nuts.
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His artwork, especially his faces, physically repulses me.)
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