Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Pre-Crisis Justice Society

The thing is, there aren't that many E2 Batman stories (unless you count the GA Batman whose adventures were retroactively E2)! The only ones I'm aware of are his one JLA/JSA participation, his appearances in the All-Star/Adventure run (mostly as Commissioner Wayne until the story of his death), DC Special 29 (JSA origin) and B&B 197. I'm sure there are more, like Huntress's 1st appearance and probably some All-Star Squadron, but there's not a lot. I suppose it's part of what makes him special, along with the legacy he left in his versions of Robin, Huntress and even Batwoman who appeared in an earlier B&B with E2 Robin.

If anyone knows of more appearances of E2 Batman, I'd love to hear about them!

Speaking of E2 Robin, I've always kinda liked his grown-up version of the Robin costume and was so glad that he wasn't stuck with that awful Batman/Robin mash-up costume he wore in his early JLA/JSA appearances!

You're right--it's the perfect lead-in to Huntress's adventures, albeit one published much later. More importantly, it gives some humanity and context to Bruce and Selina's marriage beyond it just being stated as a fact.

I think "Autobiography" is just a notch above "To Kill" because I've always been such a sucker for a Batman and Catwoman romance since I saw Adam West and Julie Newmar on TV! I'm also a big fan of purple-dress/green cape Catwoman!

(For anyone who hasn't read "To Kill a Legend", it has nothing to do with E2 Batman--though it involves the potential of a Batman on another Earth--so don't be confused about that. Alan Brennert as writer is the common denominator.)

From the awesome "DC Indexes" site, here's the complete E-2 Batman list (inclusive, as you say, of the GA stuff):

http://www.dcindexes.com/features/indexes.php?selection=7&option=appearances

Apart from the ones you mentioned, it looks like the majority of the latter-day appearances were probably just cameos in either Huntress or Earth-2 Superman stories... although Brave and the Bold #200 looks like a biggie.

Yep, there's that one, too. Haven't owned/read that one in ages! I wish I hadn't sold so many of my early DC comics when I went X-Men crazy as a kid!

Has anyone here buckled down and read the All-Star Archives? As someone who's currently up to Volume 8, this thread stands out in a crowd!

I remember being so disappointed with B&B #200. Finally the two Batmen would meet! But in a bit of bait and switch, they each have separate adventures against the same villain who jumps worlds. I can't even tell you if the story was any good, just that it wasn't what everyone wanted at the time.

Yep, we were cheated of a Batman meets Batman story for sure, considering how great some of the E1/E2 Superman moments were. However, there were some nice moments between Batman and the Huntress. "Uncle Bruce"! <sigh>

I always assume there must be tons of groovy untold adventures on Earth-2 that didn't involve teaming up with people from Earth-1.

I know. I mean, the runs on All-Star/Adventure, All-Star Squadron and Infinity Inc. barely scratched the surface!

For example, I recall a throwaway line by Power Girl, I think, where she recalls hearing about an E2 version of Aquaman after seeing the E1 version. I'm pretty certain that was never followed up on, but the possibilities in that concept being explored gave me pause and more reason to regret what Crisis did away with. I would have loved for E2's characters and similarities and differences to E1 to have been explored in much more depth.

Just thinking about how great Huntress, Batwoman and Robin were in E2's Batman family just excites my imagination for all the other things unexplored!

There's also the E-2 Green Arrow and Speedy, who are largely unexplored after they were rescued with the rest of the 7 Soldiers.

I'd also like to think there's at least a few heroes that debuted between the Golden Age and Infinity Inc. that we just didn't get to read about. Surely the reappearance of the Justice Society in the early 60s inspired a few other new E-2 heroes to appear?

Recently, I purchased an eBay lot comprised of (very nearly) the entirety of the original Infinity Inc. series. This was after I had sampled it with the "Generations Saga Vol. 1" hardcover. Unfortunately, the Vol. 2 edition was solicited but never got published (far as I can tell), so I was forced to complete the story with floppies and figured I'd get the rest to further scratch that Earth-2 itch I get from time to time.

Yeah, I know--after Crisis the Earth-2 angle gets adjusted to conform to the New Earth timeline, but I've always been curious about Infinity Inc. and of course love the JSA and their legacy.

Still, I have 3 issues to go in the Generations Saga, and that itch is being scratched very well! I mean, where else do you get to see E2 Superman duke it out with Power Girl, right?

My two cents on Infinity Inc overall:

The All Star Squadron storyline that introduced the Infinitors and the Generations Saga are both wonderful. I'd even say the latter is Roy Thomas's finest long-form achievement, because unlike his Avengers story The Kree-Skrull War, the Generations Saga actually has a proper climax, ending, and aftermath. The next three issues are also very good, but after 13 something is lost, and sadly, that something was Don Newton, the wonderful Batman, Shazam, and Avengers artist who died far too young and who only ended up drawing and co-plotting one-and-a-half issues of Infinity Inc. I don't know how much of what followed had been planned in advance by Thomas & Newton, but while it stayed an above-average comic during Todd McFarlane's 33 issue stint, and sometimes was even better than that (I'm thinking particularly of the Global Guardians team-up against the modern-day Injustice Society), it really ran out of gas, both artistically and otherwise, just as it should have been revving up for the Silver Scarab Saga which had been set up from the very beginning of the series. There is one more really good issue, and that is the double-size 50th issue. It really should have stopped there, because the last three issues are violent and depressing and end the series on a sour note. It's really a terrible shame, because these were great characters who deserved much, much better.

Hope I haven't bummed you out with this post, Lardy, though it sounds like you're already somewhat prepared for the decline. And it goes without saying that except for those final three issues, it's still a fun read overall. It just could have been so much more, if not for Don Newton death and that dumb old Crisis.

I'm not bummed out at all. I'm not expecting a wall-to-wall classic, but the characters and JSA connections are a big part of the appeal. Honestly, your summary of the overall quality doesn't sound all that bad!

I know you're a huge Don Newton fan and that your disappointment with his death robbing you of much more of his work on the series is a big factor in your feelings about the book. Me, I'm a huge Jerry Ordway fan, so I'm disappointed that he left after 10 issues.

You know, this thread shows that I have a huge love for the pre-Crisis JSA. But there are also many things I love about Crisis itself and about lots of what was done with the JSA after Crisis as part of an integrated Earth. It's a love/hate relationship. It's really too bad that Johns reintroducing Earth-2 in the second modern JSA series didn't get developed further and let us have our cake and eat it, too.

I'm curious to see Infinity transition from an Earth-2 book to a New Earth book. It couldn't have been easy given the continuity nightmares Crisis caused. My hunch is that this is ultimately what killed the book in the long haul. I think, though, that it laid the blueprint for the multi-generational and long successful JSA book that would launch about a decade later.

I'd also love to read how all of this happened from Roy Thomas's perspective. At what point did he learn that Earth-2 would be done away with? It would certainly seem from his point of view a decision that would torpedo his E2 books, but he stuck with Infinity and All-Star Squadron 'til the end and even launched Young All-Stars for the new continuity.

That's a great relief. (Whistles and wipes brow.)



I love the Ordster, too. I wish he had been a part of the Golden Age characters and their progeny for at least the same length of time he was involved with Superman.



To each their own, as the saying goes. I've become pretty dogmatic about how much worthier the Pre-Crisis DC was (with the exceptions of the 1994-2004 Post-ZH Legion, which I've grown to love, and of Peter David's contributions to the DC mythos in the 90s and 2000s.)



Yeah, DC has been such a mess of secret agendas and people working at cross-purposes for way too long.



That's a good way to look at it. I think it also laid the blueprint for James Robinson's Starman, which I know you love (I like it, but I have a lot of issues, both major and minor, with it. Come to think of it, Lardy, would you be interested in a Starman re-read sometime?)



These books would be a worthy investment that would answer a lot of your questions. The fourth and final volume is the one that focuses on Infinity Inc:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_14?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=all+star+companion&sprefix=all+star+compa%2Caps%2C161

I still have fond memories of All-Star Squadron and Infinity Inc. I have a particular soft spot for the experiment of Young All-Stars, which I thought had fairly great art throughout (with some exceptions, especially towards the end). Roy Thomas skillfully created and wove into JSA history an admirable collection of heroes.

Infinity Inc started SO strong, but as FanFic already said, had a terrible decline in its last year or so.

All-Star Squadron was good fun all the way up until the end. I'd love DC to put together another WWII era book

I think All-Star Squadron peaked between issues 19 to 35. Jerry Ordway switching from inks to pencils, embellished by his friend Mike Machlan, brought incredible results, and Roy's scripts were getting better and better. And Rick Hoberg's brief run right after Ordway left is seriously underrated IMO.

Although he wasn't at all convinced about Crisis, he seemed to see it's inevitability and did his best to be as constructive as possible. That's the impression from Absolute Crisis (and a few other articles). There's a lot of material in Absolute Crisis with Roy's thoughts and ideas.

All this talk makes me want to grab a trade of the All Star Squadron or Young All Stars!

There's 15% off these from the publisher at the moment. They can be found here from Twomorrows.

Hm. I might keep those in mind for the future. I just don't know if most of even Vol. 4 is what I'm looking for, especially for $24. I'd much rather read an interview with him online somewhere covering the subject if it existed.

Meanwhile, I'm amidst Infinity Inc.'s Crisis crossovers right now. It's a mixed bag so far, though I'm glad to see more JSA appearances. The first annual, which finally revealed Jade and Obsidian's parentage, was pretty good. Oddly enough, I thought I'd remembered the mother being Harlequin instead of Rose/Thorn in various references. Not sure why Alan and Molly had to get married in-costume...

Also, I'm a little pissed that the deaths of Huntress and Robin weren't reacted to....at least to this point. I think I saw a caption mention the "late" Huntress so far. Given she was a founding Infinitor, it seems crass.

Okay, nevermind--this is weird, actually. I've just started Infinity 21, and Dick and Helena are at Alan and Molly's wedding reception! D'oh! I thought Dick and Helena died early on in CoIE, but it actually didn't happen 'til the final issue!

I've mainly got Amazing Heroes out of storage at the minute, but I luckily also have issues 1 & 6 of Alter Ego handy too.

Issue 1 (from a different Millennium in 1999) has Fury on the cover and Julie Schwartz as the Flash

It has around 10 pages on the origins of Infinity Inc. The headings look interesting and there's character sketches too.

Issue 6 has 4 pages on the origin of the All Star Squadron. It's also part of a series. I'll have #7 somewhere (no way Id pass up on that over). But I couldn't say how many issues it ran for.

On the plus side, a quick check shows that these are available digitally for around $4 from the site above.

Nura Nal visits the Crisis...

Nura: Helena! I'm surprised to see you here!
Helena: But, we're gathering to help the Monitor, aren't we?
Nura: Yeah, but I thought you'd died before that.
Helena: What?!
Nura: Ah...look, you'll forget I even mentioned it when the reboot comes along.
Helena: Robin! Robin!
Nura: Actually, only the survivors will forget, so that won't really help you...
Dick: Helena? You look upset. What's going on...
Nura: You're alive too?!
Helena&Dick: Now, wait a minute...

The Infinty Inc article was excellent. Lots of details on the process of putting the team together.