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Yanno who I'd like to see again?

Genis-Vell, son of Captain Mar-Vell, and member of the Thunderbolts and at least one future version of the Avengers. (Currently remembered primarily as 'that guy that kept stealing Monica Rambeau's codenames.)

Last we saw him, he was 'killed' by Baron Zemo, who used the power of the moonstones to teleport him all across time and space, because his power was destabilizing something-something.

Yanno who else is occupying all points in time and space equidistantly, always connected, always apart, with a sort of omniscient 'cosmic awareness?'

Eternity. What if Genis-Vell has become Eternity, the dreaming consciousness of the entire universe, bodiless and yet embodied?

I wouldn't mind so much a favorite character being 'dead,' if he had gone past 'dead' to 'cosmic entity.'

It also would be kind of a head-trip for another favorite comic book character we never see anymore, Songbird, who could say, 'Yeah, my kinda-sorta-boyfriend is the sentient embodiment of the universe, mom. And you wanted me to marry a dentist?'

Another random fanwank.

It seemed to me, which all the Time Trapper / cockroach imagery, followed by the 'Brainy obsessing over killing cockroaches' in Adventure, and finally the last scenes we saw of Circadia Senius, in the last Legion run, complaining about his age and his aching chitin, that Circadia Senius was being set up to be the next Time Trapper.

And who better? A researcher into time and temporal mechanics, facing the end of his life and the pain and frustration and desperation that comes with the inevitable decline of a life nearing it's end, seeking to tap into his own field of study to hold back the ravages of time...

Of all the Time Trappers we'd seen before, Circadia Senius actually seems to have an arc that's taking him in that direction, unlike some other 'Time Trappers' that sort of came out of left field and seemed to exist only for shock value (Rokk) or for a very specific storyline (Superboy Prime).

When 5YL was first announced I had this idea that Wildfire would have been missing most of the time (true it turns out), and would eventually be revealed to have been an Elemental (ala Moore's Swamp Thing), and when he finally reconstituted himself only to find Brin and Dawny shacking up (Remember that aborted subplot?), he'd go nuts, and they'd need a 30th century Constantine-like character to help bring him focus. (Super-derivative, I know, but I was 13).

Enter Myron Marks!

Able to cheer people up and give them resolve in the worst of situations.

Uh, no, actually, I think that makes perfect sense. I even wrote a Bits fanfic about it.

Didn't Rokk as Trapper come about as a combination of that old Adventure issue where his future is revealed to be a terrible one (but hidden from the reader) and his obvious interest in history and using time travel to find out more?

Woah, I'm in agreement with Fanfie over something Cosmic Boy related?!

Rokk eventually becoming the Time Trapper makes sense in some ways. Aside from the old "you can become your greatest enemy" adage, as thoth said, Rokk always had a fondness for time travel and history. Also, we have seen that Rokk does a have a secret darker side that he keeps in control most of the time (LoSH #297) so if he did one day go mad, it would make sense that he would unleash his darker self.

Cheers, Stalgie.

I'll admit I didn't really ever consider Rokk's interest in the past, or being tempted to kill the people who killed his parents to be any sort of 'Time-Trapper-in-training' foreshadowing.

Although it's an interesting theory, because we've got another Legionnaire who grew up in a medieval castle on a world that eschews the high-science future entirely (way more of a 'past' connection than Rokk!) and actually *did* kill the schmuck who killed her husband (making her 'dark side' way darker than Rokks!). Jeckie is totally Time Trappering!

Hmm Jeckie as the Time Trapper could make for an interesting story too.

more of a >snap< than a >splurp<

A Genis / Eternity connection could make for a helluva story! Genis is so unique personality-wise that there is such great potential for him to interact with other characters, and this could be the impetus for a great story featuring, say, the Silver Surfer or the Guardians of the Galaxy or whoever.

I hope Set doesn't mind me borrowing this thread, but I've been musing for a while as I've watched the sun go down and read posts about the Fantastic Four.

Okay, I've already mentioned in the past that my Dream Team for whenever Marvel brings back the FF is Peter David & Todd Nauck.

But this evening, I finally realized who my second choice is.

(Are you sitting comfortably? Because this is going to shock some of you.)

My second choice for the creative team that can restore the FF to their Silver Age glory is (drumroll):

Paul Levitz & Keith Giffen!!!!

Think about it! Levitz grew up as much a Marvel fan as a DC fan during the Silver Age, and although Avengers is the Marvel team he'd most like to write, I think he'd certainly be amenable to bringing his cosmic sci-fi visions to the FF.

As for Giffen, I know I'm usually rough on the guy, but since FF has always looked better when drawn by bold stylists like Kirby and Byrne and Simonson, then what more appropriate book for Giffen than the FF? The things that I don't like about Giffen's art (the ugly, sexless people, mainly) would not bother me on the FF. Add to that the fact that Giffen was the main plotter of the surprisingly excellent mid-2000s Marvel event "Annihilation", and you've got a sure-fire thing here!

And as the icing on the cake, I'd nominate as the ideal inker one Jerry Ordway!!! The Ordster was actually much more a Marvel fan than a DC fan when he was growing up, so I imagine he'd be thrilled to work on the FF. And he'd compliment and prettify Giffen's pencils the way Joe Sinnott did the same for Jack Kirby.

Thoughts?

Fannie endorsing Keith Giffen?!

Where's Rod Serling hiding?

Well, it was a qualified endorsement.





I should also add that another reason I don't mind him doing the FF is that I have no emotional investment in Sue, Reed, or Johnny, while Ben is almost impossible for any creator to mess up.

Iron Fist dies in #5, if Giffen lets him live that long.

Thoth, LOL

Actually, Giffen would be more likely to kill one of Shooter's pet Marvel characters (it's been rumored that Giffen's hatred for Karate Kid stems from his dislike of Shooter, who created KK and seemed to relate to him the most.)

I'd nominated the Molecule Man -- I can't stand him. And he made his first appearance in an old FF story, so it all comes full circle.

All kidding aside, I do want to make something perfectly clear -- I did not intentionally start this discussion to have fun at Giffen's expense. I would be genuinely interested in a Levitz/Giffen FF, because I think I'd enjoy it far more than most of their Legion work together.

I didn't realise it was a Shooter thing with Giffen. And I bow to your knowledge of what you'd think would work with the FF. I've never read them.

As a kid, I think I read a Secret Wars crossover where Susan was dressed up in some skimpy leather outfit. Not quite the wholesome image I'd seen in their Alpha Flight appearances or glimpses elsewhere. It was possibly a Secret Wars issue where I got to see Molecule Man too.

I quite liked the idea of a man with huge power, but not automatically become a power obsessed nut job. Just wanting a quieter life. I think that was the first issue of Secret Wars II. He may have been a power mad nut job everywhere else for all I know.

Taking the Levitz approach to writing would certainly develop a good supporting cast, without losing the leads along the way. So that would be something. And I could see Giffen's Kirbyhomage style fitting in.

Thoth, you've never read the FF?

Well, IMHO the two eras to definitely give a go are the Walt Simonson era (collected in three Fantastic Four Visionaries trades) and the John Byrne era (collected in, IIRC, seven Fantastic Four Visionaries Volumes.) I personal prefer Simonson, most people seem to prefer Byrne. And some people like both equally.

The original Silver Age FF by Kirby & Lee is a mixed bag. Some of it still has the power to astonish, but the sexist and paternalistic attitudes have not dated well. Reed, in particular, comes off very badly.

The closest I got was a glance through an issue of the Hickman run. But it was in the middle of a story, so I didn't look too closely.

I've had an oversized marvel collector's edition for a lot of years. It's possibly a very early purchase. But Kirby's art was a bit off putting for me.

Apart from that, it's been the odd thing as a back up in other comics. I've seen some of the Byrne stuff that way I think.

Reed always came across as an obsessive tool of a man. I don't think my opinion of him has ever really changed even if I was too young to use that word.

It was a throwaway line in the Legion cartoon, but I much prefer that idea of Durla: "a communications hub," to the really discomfitting version we got in the Retroboot.

Actually, there were always uncomfortable post-colonial overtones to how Levitz portrayed the planet, but they were really overpowering and distasteful to me the last go-round. The aliens are completely assimilated into our own value system and society (like Reep and Yera) or they're backwards, violent, covetous killers. No, please.

If Durla was a planet where the locals had a very alien perspective compared to most, but they provided a vital service which the rest of the U.P. couldn't do without? That would open a whole lot more potential for interesting characterization than just all good/all irredeemable evil.

I think it's a great idea actually! Giffen's love of Kirby would shine through and he'd be able to cut loose with his ideas like he wants to do. But having both Levitz and an inker would be necessary to reign him in and not let him go too batshit over the top as he also tends to do.

I think it would be good too for Paul to be out of his comfort zone at DC, and with a smaller cast--yet still a superhero ensemble--he could delve into the characters nicely. The FF are also a niche sci-fi team, and he could excel there by using a lot of his writer's tricks (an FF version of Encyclopedia Galactica, for example).

Paul's also a "let the franchise grow organically" guy, and that is absolutely a must-have for the FF. When editorial continues to force the status quo on the series, it becomes hypocritical to the entire spirit of the franchise. I think both Levitz and Giffen would understand that.

They'd also write a great Thing.

Thanks for chiming in, Cobie.

An FF version of Encyclopedia Galactica (Encyclopedia Cosmica? Encyclopedia Imagina?) would so rock!!

And I think you're so right about Levitz benefitting from being out of his DC comfort zone. Like I said earlier in the thread, he has said he grew up a big fan of the work of Jack & Stan on FF and John & Roy on Avengers. Can't you just imagine him & Giffen doing an FF vs. Dr. Doom epic that would outdo even Simonson's Doom story?

It also helps that, unlike DC, Marvel does have some good editors, even though Axel Alonso provides a weak center for them to revolve around. Hopefully Alonso won't be EiC much longer, after the creative (if commercially lucrative) fiasco of Secret Wars.

I'm not convinced they'd look further than "commercially lucrative", before squatting and delivering the next Event.