Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12

Yeah, there was much repetition of "themes" in these stories.



Good point about their previous fighting experience.



In the flashback (bottom of page 6), Chuck is clearly looking away when Lu splits. There's no other way he would have noticed since Lu had the foresight not to wear a costume that splits when she does. (Worst. Costume. Ever.)

It's a good question as to why she didn't tell Chuck what was going on. She thinks, "I'll stay back unless he needs another assist!" Perhaps she wanted to give him time to redeem his manhood.



Interesting idea.

There are a couple (or more stories) featuring powerless Chuck Taine relying on his wits - and some of the stories in which he has his bouncing power show him being clever. Did writers come up with this idea or were they told, Give us a filler story with Bouncing Boy?

He likely would have made a good leader; he was well chosen as the guy who kept Legion World running under DnA.

Good point, Thoth, about the recycling of themes; I hadn't picked up on some of those.



There must have been some lingering regret that he wasn't even permitted to try and save Lu at their wedding.

In the TMK run, Marzal comes out of its Brigadoon dimension early.

“Marzal, the inter-dimensional portal-island from which ex-Legionnaire Tyroc hailed, is destroyed by Earthgov forces. Tyroc survives and joins the resistance.”

Other notes tells us that Earthgov used recordings of Tyroc’s own voice, taken from Legion records, to activate Marzal’s return. The destruction was used by Earthgov as propaganda against “Khund conspirators.”

Another way of looking at it, through the lens of the rubbish ideas behind all this, is that an island of black people was wiped out by an army of nearly all non-black people. It wasn’t the Dominators that killed them. It was Earthgov forces of humans, before the Dominators revealed themselves. TMK, in trying to erase the mess, didn’t exactly help too much there.

Really interesting comments on the reasons for Marzal remaining insular for so long. No doubt, this will come up again later in the re-reads.




Yeah, it was that he didn’t hear her or notice the split at all. In a deserted park, where he’s alert after an attack. It really was as you say, just a way of letting the plot give Chuck back some confidence. It looked as though he was sulking after being saved.

Alt+Plot:

Lelith; Lu was feeling faint, Chuck, so we’ve split.
Chuck: You could stay in the background, in case we’re attacked again.
Lelith: Or I could help you carry Lu out more quickly more medical assistance.
Chuck: Now that you mention it, I could use Technology of the Future to call for an ambulance.
>minutes later<

Lelith: Right. That’s Lu being looked after. Let’s go and beat up some thugs to see what thy used on her.
Chuck: >picks up balls from nearby court< They won’t know what hit them.

Superboy also duplicated the powers of Matter-Eater Lad and Timber Wolf, so that rule was applied irregularly.

Yes, I noted the smiley-face.

Was Mrs Kent's cooking really that bad

Superboy can't eat kryptonite.

Yeah, I think that was a poor move.

Looking at the title, it's "The Private Lives of Bouncing Boy & Duo Damsel" I read into that , that they were perhaps looking to make them an irregular feature.

Probably based on the usual extensive DC marketing research. "Gee, our sales went up the month Chuck & Lu were in" / "Gee our sales went down the month Chuck got dropped" / "The kid at the candy store really likes Lu" / "Could we get Chuck in a gorilla suit and put checks across the cover?"



He did manage to transform the Academy into the UP grouping, keeping it alive in exactly the way the Legion couldn't keep their own team going.

It's a flaw when you only recruit from people having powers. What if none of them have any other skills? Only a few top sportsmen make great managers.

Somebody on one of the Legion Facebook pages suggested that Chuck and Lu be given a "Nick and Nora" series of stories. I would have loved to see that approach taken with the back-ups.

Ralph & Sue are the only Nick & Nora for me

Chuck & Lu have their own dynamic.

Fascinating to see our reads on these issues

This was one of my favorite volumes to be issued
To be blunt, the men were just sexier

Now to the issue at hand:
I really wanted the introduction of Marzal to be good. As a kid, I hunted for ANY appearance of Tyroc when I saw him in Who's Who (or some other listing of characters). BUT the race stuff IS so heavy handed and lacks any real meat on the bone. At the time, it felt shallow. Today, it's just embarrassing.

Chuck and Lu: this story had the most erratic logic. While a BB/DD appearance in the Legion has always been enjoyable for me, this one was weird. There were a whole series of Legion stories in this era where the Legionnaires were undone by street-level foes or some similarly underwhelming plot device

What I am still tickled with:

Chuck and Lu - They were a favorite of mine as a kid and continue to delight. I thought this moment was (yet another) attempt at under-utilizing the woman for the sake of the man (sigh), BUT I did enjoy seeing the dimensions of their relationship with (and without) powers

the experimentation in their clothes (successful or not) ... I thought that there was more risk done in playing with the Legion look through this era

the use of Shadow Lass in many of the stories. She was introduced in a big way and then just sporadically used. Looking at her whole career, this is just before she becomes half of Mon-El and... (or a quarter of Mon, Jo, Tinya and ...) - so it's cool to see her around (even if she doesn't have much to do)

Back up stories that continue to focus on underused or inactive members. It gives a chance for fans to see these characters again (and I always liked that about the Legion - the range of characters)

Superboy & the LOSH #216

Well, there's a lot to dislike about Tyroc's first appearance but it's actually no where near as bad as people make it out to be. There's also some good stuff in there too.

The bad comes down to how uncomfortable the reader is made to feel by the incredibly awkward attempt to make a story about race, which falls incredibly flat. For the mid-70's, one would hope for racial topics to be done with more nuance; for a story set 1,000 years later, you'd expect an even more extreme story loaded with metaphor. Instead it's too on the nose and too out of place in the UP we've come to know. All of this is compounded by the ridiculous Codename and costume given to Tyroc, which don't hold up in the slightest decades later.

Still, Tyroc should not have been shunted aside so easily. There's a lot there and a lot to like, and it's a shame it took 30 more years for someone to realize it. A simple change of costume / look, ignoring the Marzal nonsense and even a Codename change would have eliminated the nonsensical elements. What's left is a strong, diverse new Legionnaire with sound based powers.

The "good" is that the story is actually well paced and wonderfully drawn. Tyroc's entrance is quite magnificent, and the opening panels are wonderfully science fiction-y and suspenseful.

Meanwhile, the backup story featuring Chuck and Luornu is highly unnecessary. I found it weak and more of what we've seen a dozen times already since the Legion became co-stars of the series. Shooter and Bates have simply gone to the week one too many times. It's hard to find any enthusiasms for backups at this point in the run...we want full stories!

Catching up on everyone's commentary, I can see there were a lot of great points. HWW and Thoth cover well how race could and should have been dealt with in the LSH, and how quietly inserting diverse human races, as well as aliens, is by far the best way to do this. Levitz / Giffen got this done nicely.

Now if only DC would allow newer, more diverse Legionnaires to stick around instead of whatever they deem to be classic Legionnaires.

I also like the idea of "Nick and Nora" type adventures for Luornu and Chuck. I think the idea of putting them in charge of the Academy was really a stroke of brilliance by Levitz, as a way to keep Riek relevant and active in the franchise.

Lastly, good call by HWW on the growing prominence of Shady during this time. She is certainly a visual highlight of the Legion roster and the creators were smart to use her on covers.

Good points. The story is well paced and introduces Tyroc quite well--qualities that often get overlooked while discussing the "bad" parts.



Well, I question whether any story is "necessary."

You're right that the formula is wearing thin and, in the long run, this story doesn't amount to much. At the time, though, I remember being delighted to see Chuck and Lu again. For some reason, I was expecting them to show up at Legion HQ and interact with their former teammates, so it was disappointing to see them on their own. (It would be like buying a Beatles reunion album that features just George and Ringo--probably pleasant, but not the hoped-for experience). Still, it was nice that they weren't forgotten.

I still like the setup of the story: Now that Chuck is non-powered, he's ripe for the pickings of his enemies (or so they think). I also like the lesson that Chuck's heroism depends more on his smarts than on his power--a lesson I also picked up from his previous solo outing back in 199. Chuck seems to be the Legionnaire who is best suited for showing the principle that brains matter more than physical power.

Now that we're caught up with 216, can we go on to 217, thoth?

You know, since the topic hasn't moved on to 217 yet, I decided to revisit the lead story in 216 in light of all the back-and-forth about it, most of it being negative. I'd read every post but just didn't relate to the level of offensiveness that the story seems to have provoked. So I just read it for the second time in about a week. And you know what? It's really not all that bad and doesn't really play into stereotypes or blaxploitation all that much.

Number one, all that's stated about Marzal is that it's populated by a black race that wants nothing to do with the outside world. Nothing specifically racially motivated as a reason for their isolationism; they just are insular and don't particularly trust the outside world. There are many real-life analogs for comparison, but I suppose that because they are all black, we read a lot into it. Heck, they could be descended from an African tribe and want to maintain their ways.

Number two, Tyroc states that maybe the Legion ignored Marzal during various crises because they were a country populated by black people. That's probably the most "damning" thing in the story. However, there's no indication that this is a firmly held belief among his people. Plus, he quickly recants when he sees the Legion's moral fiber for himself, rather than rationalizing the events to suit his point of view as most hardcore believers in whatever tend to do rather than admit they made a mistake.

Number three, comic stories addressing race tended (and sometimes still do) to be a little heavy-handed in trying to deliver the right message. Various stories of the era, including the GL/GA one, some racially-themed storylines in Amazing Spider-Man and even the infamous 'Lois goes black' story were all rather clumsy or obvious in their handling in hindsight, even if some of these were lauded for addressing the topic. This one is much like its contemporaries in that way. Its message is heavy-handed but well-intentioned.

Number three, Tyroc himself is criticized for his look and design and supposed blaxploitation, but it really isn't ill-fit with the rest of the Legion's increasingly mod seventies looks. And what stuck out to me about him was the Legion's reactions to him. They were awed by his unusual power and instantly wanted him on their team. They don't always have that initial reaction to potential new members, even ones who go on to become stalwarts.

It's a shame that Grell apparently designed Tyroc to show his disapproval of how the character was introduced. I think the design is kind of cool in its own way, especially appropriate for the '70s at least. Okay, the booties were a little too much, but I think it's overall a sexy costume suitable for a now-sexy Legion.

Someone mentioned the name being a bad choice. Why? At first, I misremembered that that was his actual name until I remembered it was actually Troy Stewart. I guess it was actually supposed to be a Marzal heroic title or something. Is it bad because it sounds like Tyrone, a not uncommon African-American name? The only other thing I can think of is the mythical birds called 'rocs'. Were they known for screaming, and would adding 'Ty' tend to make it sound more African? I don't get the problem with the name.

Look, I'm not calling this one of the great Legion stories, but it's not all that bad. It's a little clumsy but, I think, well-intentioned. I haven't read the later Tyroc stories that wrote him (and Marzal) out. I suspect a lot of details were added there to bring out elements that were only implied or read into in this initial story. I don't know this, but I think I heard anecdotally that stuff about the Marzals being descended from slaves may have been added there. If it did, that's disappointing, but this story isn't to blame in and of itself.

I'm as liberal as I suspect many here are, but I see little or nothing to condemn or to use to preach on my pedestal to the masses about this one story. At least we finally got a Legionnaire of an African persuasion. It's a shame that he didn't become more prominent or get developed a lot more before he was written out, but I've seen his use in 5YL and Retroboot as check marks in their respective "good" columns (the latter having very little else in said column, unfortunately).

I feel this is one case where if African-Americans want to condemn Tyroc as a poor reflection of their culture and representation, then I'll support them every step of the way. But sometimes, in our need to show how liberal and enlightened we are, we look to address "wrongs" that--just maybe--are barely a blip (if that) for the advocated people and the dream we all hope to fulfill together.


Sorry, none of this is meant to shake my finger at anyone who feels otherwise, so please don't take it as such. Just another point of view on this story I felt I needed to express as the conversation went on and I examined my reactions to said conversation.

These issues were such a golden age for me but even as a kid I knew these often weren't as good a stories as they COULD be..... Wnen my energy level improves I'll try to participate more.

I recall wee me finding 214 especially bad. However I loved Tyroc from the get go and was thrilled to be there for the I ntro of a new Legionnaire. Loved Lu's look and Star Trek homage costume

Paladin raises a good point that we read a lot into the fact that Marzal is a black population and assume their isolation is race-based.

I think a lot of my criticism or cringing about the Tyroc story is after the fact. The 70s were a different mindset, disco was in full swing so the costume didn't look as outrageous as it does today. (We all wore chains and big collars :rolleyes:.) We weren't that far removed from the Black Panther trials, so the angry black man image was still pretty pervasive.

Was the Legion being targeted at kids or teens at that point? Any social-themed story would be more likely to be heavy-handed than subtle with a younger readership.

So much of what we've seen of 30th century society is so homogenized, it's actually kind of nice to find out that there are places in the Legion's time that maintain their independence and don't conform.

^ All great points in the above posts.

Lardy is especially correct that Tyroc's costume did not seem all that outrageous in the Grell Legion and the era of disco. Lardy also makes an excellent point that nothing is said in the story about *race* being the reason for Marzal's isolation.

As for Tyroc claiming that the Legion didn't help Marzal through crises, someone in a later letter column wondered if Marzal had even asked for assistance. It could be that Tyroc's speech is mere political posturing, espousing views he had grown up believing. We see such slanted rhetoric entirely too often these days.

I never associated the name "Tyroc" with "Tyrone" until someone suggested it on this board a few years ago. Maybe this is another example of people reading offense into something where no offense was intended.

Cramey -- According to Shooter in The Legion Companion, Boltinoff believed the Legion's readership was quite young and insisted that the Legionnaires were all around 15 or so. You raise a good point that stories aimed at young readers tend to be heavy handed in dealing with race.

EDE -- Excellent point that there are (or should be) cultures on 30th century earth which are at odds with mainstream society. As I noted in my post, this aspect might have come through more clearly (and been less about race) if we'd seen dark-skinned characters in previous Legion stories.

A bit of cultural context: I was reading a magazine from 1979 earlier this week. It had an article called "Blacks in Science Fiction film."

It opens with a Richard Pryor quote from 1976, where he's just been to see Logan's run and notices that there's no black people in it. "Well, white folks ain't plannin' on us to be here," he says. '76 was the same year as Tyroc's debut.

As for the article. Well, the fact that you could fit nearly every SF cameo to more substantial role in a single article tells you everything you need to know really.

Superboy 217



From the cover, it’s not surprising that this was an issue I was in no hurry to buy. A giant feudal elf, with an outdated chain-operated video game component that fires like a cannon at the Legion.

I’m too busy trying to avoid Colossal Boy’s costume to really care about the Legion’s two mightiest heroes flying in. As per commentary on last issue, Shady once again replaces Ayla. The splash page does nothing to reinforce the cover or to provide more than a chess link to the story. At least Gim’s costume is blown up. Looking at the villain’s helmet and the chessboard, I wonder if this inspired Gerry Conway to alter the look of Despero.

The story is a pedestrian lift from a Star Trek episode, where Brainy tests his wits against a top Khundish commander. To reduce the excitement even further, Superboy gets to add narration throughout.

Said narrator pretty much tells the reader that it’s going to be a boring start. But Timberwolf uses his super agility only a couple of panels in. It’s to kick over a chess board, but it still counts. Their ship is attacked by the Khunds, as it’s about to drop Brainy off for a chess tournament.

There’s more superheroics as Brainy, Shady, Brin and Gim all use their powers to solve problems. It’s a little worrying that the ship should be a man short and really need to rely on Gim’s abilities to avoid being further damaged. Perhaps that extra crewman would have been Superboy, except that the Kryptonian is usually already out the airlock and looking for the cause of any issues. It’s also handy that it’s Shady who’s on duty in the lightless room. Still, it shows that there’s more to a being a Legionnaire than just powers, as they all know their way around a spacecraft’s systems.

When the Khunds prepare for a second attack, Brainy is only too keen for the combat. Apparently he’s been dreaming of going up against his opponent in battle, which seemed at first to be very blood thirsty for him. But he’s probably not thinking about the potential destruction over the solution to a query, which takes him firmly into a number of his other disasters.

With both opponents keen to show us their wits (it is a code approved comic after all), we then don’t see anything other than the end of the conflict. The Legion are victorious in this plot tease. But that’s only the beginning. Once Brainy has gone, the Khunds attack in force again. This time they manage to force the Legion cruiser to land. A few Legion fans get places named after them this issue, such as Vanvlack IV, which is a nice nod from Shooter.

The Legion hatch a plan and leap out of the cruiser upon seeing a Khund they could use to get information from. It’s a highlight of the story to see them act as adventurously as normal, only for that plan to have been potentially fatal. Shooter doesn’t force his characters to do anything they wouldn’t have done naturally to make the plot work. Seeing Brin and Shady leap out of the cruiser was a memorable panel. In a choice between having Gim or Shady in combat, Shady is the clear choice, and Shooter doesn’t hesitate.

In a nice twist, it’s those natural instincts, in this case to follow Brainy’s plans blindly, that almost get them killed again. The Khunds simply can’t believe that the Legion would not retreat, even when giving them false orders. Having shown us their opponents, you know that Brin, Gim and Shady must have really cut loose in the battle. We get hints of Brin’s animalistic side as he’s injured. That would develop over the years. So too, would Gim’s habit of getting shot during a battle.

Superboy’s arrival to see his teammates anything but celebrating their triumph is another excellent panel. Grell’s art is strong throughout. From a levitating Superboy, through the upholstery on the cruiser’s chairs to the battling Legionnaires and the message in the ship’s explosion. He seemed to really enjoy this one.

Shooter gives us a final payoff by dispatching the villain using a small set up from much earlier in the story.

The story could really have done without Superboy’s narration. It clogged up an already unwieldy opening. The rest of the story struggled to increase the pace. As it’s not a full length story, we only get glimpses of the Legionnaires in combat, which is also a pity as Grell depicted them so well.

^I agree with the all of the above. It's a thoroughly forgettable story and villain.

I've never seen "The Charge of the Light Brigade," but, as the title seems to have been inspired by that film, I wouldn't be surprised if the story was, as well. In any case, the premise certainly seems borrowed from Star Trek's "Balance of Terror," which, as I recall, was also borrowed from somewhere else.

It's nice that the Legionnaires charged the Khunds and so terrified them that the villains couldn't think or shoot straight--but a tad unrealistic. In all likelihood, they should have been more than just stunned.

I did appreciate the Legionnaires' blase reaction to Superboy's arrival. Kal has hogged enough of the spotlight, and it's nice to see how unimpressed his teammates were when he showed up to save the day.

And the Legionnaires don't really defeat Lorca--he defeats himself. A nice ironic twist, but so what? That's my overall reaction to the story: So what?

217/Future Shock for Superboy

It's rare for a backup story to focus on Superboy, and this is the first to do so since 197 (a non-Legion story). Surprisingly, it's a welcome change of pace.

Arriving in the 30th century, Superboy becomes smitten with a girl who calls herself "Elna," but she runs away when Wildfire approaches. Not one to let a mystery linger, Superstalker scours the city for her with his x-ray vision until he comes across Wildfire blasting her. After the obligatory manhandling of Wildfire by Superboy (which plays well off of their previous conflict in 214), Elna reappears, unscathed, and reveals the attack was part of a Legion Academy training exercise. She then tells Superboy she's his descendant, Laurel Kent, but inherited only one of his powers, invulnerability.

She then leaves Superboy with another tantalizing mystery--that she resembles the woman he's destined to marry. Of course, Superboy remembers none of this when he returns to his own time, thanks to the long-established post-hypnotic suggestion.

Even though it is built on a gimmick mystery that DC probably then never had any intention of resolving--e.g., who Superboy will marry--and even though the convenient resolution ensures there will be no long-term consequences for Superboy, I did enjoy this story. For one thing, it's nice to see super-Puritan Superboy act like a typical horny teenager, out to impress a girl. For another, the "Elna" mystery is nicely set up and explained. There's a sweetness and innocence in her interactions with him, even if she's dressed in a way that no teenaged boy (or girl) could ignore. (But, then everyone in Grell's 30th century dressed that way.)

Of course, "Elna" is an anagram for "Lane," to further stoke fan convictions that Kal will marry Lois.

Laurel herself later returns as a much-liked supporting character before the excremental crossover which turned her into a Manhunter android. Personally, I choose to believe the later story never happened and that "Future Shock" presents Laurel as she truly was and was meant to be.

S&LSH #217

The Charge of the Doomed Legionnaires was, in my humble opinion, a terrific story that stands out among the last few. It was exciting and full of sizzle, like a summer action movie, and effectively used all the Legionnaires within.

Grell's art was on fire here with numerous dramatic posed and layouts, which matched the energy of the story. The backgrounds and colors also popped. For the first time, the art felt like "80's" art, in the sense of the changing and maturing styles that would be coming in that decade.

Shooter, meanwhile, provides a masterful script. The Legionnaires are full of personality: Brin kicking over the board, Gim not being overly full of pride and calling for back up, Brainy being Brainy. All of them are capable and confident. Likewise, Lorca appears as a fully realized character and even though he isn't seen all that much, he's an effective presence throughout.

Shooter also loads in things to make a fan happy. Reference to the Khunds history and status as an ongoing threat to the UP. A throwaway line to Pelnath and Kralzk at Jupiter in the Great Solar War which instantly makes me want to know everything about such a thing. References to 30th century Thanagar. These things matter and it's never more apparent when you read a story like this right after the previous one like I did, where so many things were lacking.

This was a terrific story. If there were ongoing subplots from issue to issue like the heyday of the 80's-00's, a full issue could have easily been filled with 3-4 interludes featuring another 10-12 Legionnaires with this central story making up the meat of the issue. That would have put this story right alongside the great ones of the 80's.

----------------

The second story introduced Laurel Kent, who may be the sexiest character yet in franchise history thanks to Grell. There's one problem, this is a dubious introductory story on par with Star Wars in that what appears to be a cute introduction turns out to be a gross "almost incest" moment! That kind of takes the wind right out the sails! In fact, I've never quite warmed to Laurel and I think that's why.

Meanwhile, I do like that the Academy is referenced again for the first time since its introduction, and that Wildfire becomes tied to it hereafter. I also like the Superboy versus Wildfire panels, which is something we'll see more of, even if they're buddy buddy most of this issue.

But yeah. That bait and switch incest thing, even 1,000 years apart, has always soured me on this story and the character.

I can see you guys didn't enjoy the lead story anywhere as much as me! But I think it was a solid tale and surprisingly well done. I stand by the idea that if this was done in more modern times (say 1980 onward) where this was the 'meat' of a full length story that also contained interludes and ongoing subplots filling out the rest of the issue, it would have been pretty great!



I do have to say though that actually, the Legionnaires strategy is a classic war strategy throughout history and the Khunds reaction is exactly the desired effect. To shock and stun the enemy, and then overwhelm them before they can muster their courage is a classic Roman army strategy, and also a key element of a cavalry charge when bearing down on an infantry. This is exactly what happened in the Battle of Gettsyburg on Little Round Top when Chamberlain ordered the most famous bayonet charge in American history. Done out of necessity--his army was out of ammo--he so shocked the opposing flank of the southern army that they were totally overwhelmed and routed.