Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine The Star Wars Episode VII Thread You're Looking For -- Warning: Super-Spoileriffic!

Use this thread to discuss the new Star Wars movie openly and with spoilers.

Probably best to avoid putting big spoilers near the beginning of your post, though, so they don't show up in the Active Topics list.

While I am still kinda processing it and evaluating it, I do feel like I overall liked it a good bit. I don't think any SW movie will ever supplant ESB as my favorite, and this one definitely won't supplant it in my personal pecking order.

Aside: In fact, I still have an internal debate as to whether 2nd place belongs to the original movie (IV), Return of the Jedi or possibly even Revenge of the Sith. It may seem like heresy to suggest any prequel can be ranked so highly, but if a better actor had played Anakin, I think III would have been a slam-dunk for my second favorite.

I was a little surprised, given all the pre-hype and criticism of TWA being too much like IV (I have some trouble calling it "A New Hope"), that this movie felt quite a bit darker than the former. I mean, it began with a village being slaughtered! Yes, I know we saw Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's smoldering bones in the aftermath, but here (though typically for SW not super-graphic), you see some of them cut down. then, later, you see the latest super weapon cut down several planets instead of just one and even get a glimpse of the terrified masses in their final moment.

And then, well, we lose someone that pretty much every Star Wars fan dearly loves in a pretty heart-wrenching manner. Ben's death hurt in the first one because of a memorable performance by Alec Guinness, but as an old-timer who's seen the films in their release order, it's hard to compare the loss of Ben to one of the most charismatic characters in all of sci-fi.

Yes, all of these echoed events in the original film, but I didn't feel as TFA was all a rehash, even if you incorporate some of the similarities to the assault on the new super-weapon and the desert planet.

An interesting element here is that we have a lot of mysterious backstory to bridge what happened between this one and RotJ. Yep, there was a lot of mysterious backstory in the original, but the difference is that there's no missing trilogy to fill it all in later. It almost feels like the big moments with Kylo Ren with his father and Rey could almost have been saved for the next one if they really wanted TFA to be more like IV, if you know what I mean.

Hell, I'm all over the place! More later!

I liked it! It wasn't perfect, but I love the new set of protagonists. I found their acting superb, and all of them lovable. They really showed growth through the movie.

I also liked what we saw of old characters brought back.

As for the similarities - dare I say, parallels - with IV, I didn't mind them much. They brought a nostalgic smile to my face. Blaze didn't appreciate them because he's never watched the original trilogy. Don't worry, I'm making him watch them

As I said in the other thread, I thought it was pretty average overall. I definitely had fun and there some moments that gave me legitimate chills, but I don't think this film is going to be affecting my ranking of the series very much. I would place solidly behind the original trilogy and just slightly ahead of Revenge of the Sith.

The cinematography of the film was gorgeous and for all the gripes I have with J.J. Abrams' directing styles, he really knows how to invoke that classic Star Wars tone and style, such as the dirty landscape and vehicles to the transitions between scenes that were used in the original trilogy. The use of practical effects for some of the aliens was definitely appreciated and I hope other directors will follow suit with their installments in the franchise.

I also really liked some of the new characters, especially Finn and Poe. Hell, I wanted an entire movie of just those two hanging out and flying ships! Rey was pretty bland for the most part and her character felt a bit too Mary Sue-ish for my tastes, but the actress turned in a solid performance with what she was given. The return of the old cast was great, though I wish Leia would have played a larger role in the film.

I did have a couple of problems with the film, namely in the form of Kylo Ren. There seems to be a jarring inconsistency with his power levels and personality about halfway through the film. When we first seem him, he's easily able to freeze blaster fire in mid air, something we've never seen either a Jedi or Sith do before. However, once he takes off his mask, he almost seems to be a different character. He's much more vulnerable and, frankly, kind of a wimp. His power levels also seem radically different during the final lightsaber fight as he doesn't utilize any of the powers he was employing at the beginning of the film.

Overall, I think it was a well made movie, though there were major problems in the script in the second half that could have been fixed with just a few modifications. I'm interested to see where the sequel will go, especially now that Luke has finally turned up. I just hope Rey will be a more interesting protagonist this time around.

Dump him immediately!

I'm liking it less and less as I reflect on it, and for mostly the reasons Paladin suggests:

It WAS Star Wars redux, just bigger:

- Beloved Father Figure killed (Check) except it was Han!
- Innocents torched (Check) except it was more!
- Creature Cantina (Check) Except More creatures!
- Giant Super Weapon destroyed in a trench battle after the shields are knocked out (Check) Except Bigger!
- The two main bag guys in service to the big bad guy are the military commander and the evil force dude (Check) Except the big bad guy is HUGE!

By the end it was just too much. The first half was better, even given the ridiculous amount of co-incidences (which can be overlooked in SW as the force bringing elements together), but the lazy writing and super nostalgia wank really killed it.

Abrams has become like Geoff Johns, his hard on to re-create nostalgia touch points is undoing his skill as a filmmaker. After "Into Darkness", my biggest complaint was that if he wanted to remake Wrath of Khan, why didn't he just do that? That complaint now goes double for Star Wars.

My other complaint was the overall clunkiness of the pacing. Just casually revealing Ren was Han's son seemed like a waste when you could have had some drama. And the ending sequence was bizarre. We've spent the whole movie looking for Luke, we have the map to where Luke is. Why spend however many minutes it was climbing stairs and looking uncertain to then find the mysterious figure (it's Luke). Who Could it be? (You've already told us, it's Luke). He pulls back his hood and GASP! It's Luke! (Umm, yes we know).

Edit to add: I didn't like the Prequels all that much, but at least they TRIED to be innovative and weren't saying "wink, wink, It's Star Wars, get it?" every two minutes. This film turned out to be completely backward looking.

That's what really frustrated me about the second half of the film. The first act really seemed to be carving its own path and even subverting a few tropes along the way. Finn is really interesting, complex character, but we never really explore that complexity in his own mind enough. Most of his character traits/growth are explained by other characters, such as Han or Maz. I definitely feel like building this new trilogy around Finn would have actually been a more original take on the classic Star Wars mythos. Here's a character who's defied an expectation from birth to kill and destroy and seeks redemption for his actions by fighting against those who raised him. What if he was the Force sensitive character? Would he feel worthy of such powers? How would someone raised without concepts of mercy and free will view Jedi teachings? There are interesting character ideas to explore there! But Abrams just had to have another scrappy kid from a desert wasteland planet as the lead again.

For me it was solidly in the middle of the Star Wars films thus far, well below the original trilogy but well above the prequels.

There was a lot to like, especially in terms of the new protagonists. Rey was strong and competent, without really falling into any sort of stereotype. Poe Dameron just oozed charm, and was the massive breakout character in the early scenes of the movie. Unfortunately, he just disappears and then never really gets to do much interesting once he turns up again. Finn had a really unique introduction, and had just the right amount of bumbling-ness that you would expect from a Stormtrooper turned to the side of the right.

I agree that Kylo Ren was a bit of a weak point. I kept wanting to bash his face in not for being evil but just for being a whiny loser. As far as other villains, I was expecting a lot more out of Gwendolyn Christie's character than we got. And we don't really see enough of the Supreme Leader to really judge anything about him, but I have a feeling he's going to turn out to be a tiny creature ala Yoda once we see the real him and not just the giant hologram he projects.

As I said in the "Watching" thread, I definitely thought it went a little overboard in the winks-to-the-fans around the middle part of the movie, and the plot was a little too "by the numbers". There weren't really any "wow" moments where I felt like it was something I hadn't seen before or something really exciting was being added to the mythos, except maybe a couple of things like the aforementioned introduction of Finn.

The major death wasn't unexpected, and was pretty well done, but I'm kind of bummed it robs of an actual "getting the old gang back together" moment.

Yes, I thought Gwendolyn Christie was wasted in that role. Hopefully they give her more in the second film.

Yeah, Gwendolyn Christie was very memorable considering the minor role and short amount of screen time. I would love to see what she can do with a larger role.

Hahaha! Now he remembers having watched them but he can't recall the plot. There is hope yet!

You know... I was totally thinking about the Geoff Johns comparison while I was watching the movie, and while I agree that it steered *dangerously* close to the kind of cynically manipulative nostalgia-fest that bugs the hell out of me in much of Johns's work, it didn't quite reach that for me. I think the difference is that Abrams actually succeeded in re-creating enough of the charm of the original that the movie still had plenty of heart even if it lacked much originality and even if it was heavily nostalgia-driven.

I agree with what others said above that the new protagonists outshone the new antagonists.

Rey, Finn, Poe (despite his long absence) meshed well with old characters from the original trilogy (well, really just Han and Leia but good enough).

Kylo Ren was whiny, and frankly I saw the big twist at the end coming from a mile away. It hurt a bit, but not as much as it would have if it hadn't been so obvious.

I'm glad they at least acknowledged the Death Star vs. Starkiller Base similarities by having the Rebels compare both while planning. Sadly, while I did cheer a little when they finally blew up Starkiller Base, I didn't feel particularly impressed as it didn't seem like the battle was that difficult.

I cheered much more when Rey handed Kylo Ren's butt to him while fighting with lightsabers.

I have to add that I like Maz as a character, though she does seem a little like Yoda II, only less funny.



Have to agree that there were too many coincidences. The ship just happens to be the Millennium Falcon; Rey just happens to run into the droid; Han and Chewie just happen to be the ones to intercept the Falcon; Maz just happens to have Luke's lightsaber... These would have been forgivable if, as Dave said, the storytelling had been a bit better and the pacing had been a bit tighter.

I also think the big bad is a bit too much like Palpatine (and Voldemort!!!) to be a particularly compelling villain.

The new characters were welcome (and even though I've been hard on the nostalgia, Chewie really did steal the show).

Finn was the most compelling and I wanted more of his conflicting Stormtrooper training vs. moral consciousness, although again his hero's journey was kind of consumed and made secondary by the "revenge of the plot" in the second half.

Rey was well acted, but there wasn't a lot of depth there so far. They hinted a little too strongly that she's part of the family somehow, and her force abilities came a little too quickly for the convenience of the plot.

Po was interesting but his disappearance was odd, and after he came back he was mostly just a plot driving machine.

I agree with some here that I wasn't blown away as I expected to be. But part of me actually was prepared for that. The hype was just too much.

I LOVE Rey. Great hero/main character. I liked the overall plot.
I wanted more revealed of course but they are pacing themselves it seems. Didn't want to spill all the candy in the first part of the trilogy.

Looks like Cpt Phasma and Poe Dameron may play bigger roles next movie.

Things I didn't like? For all of the shots taken at episode 1-3 they sure had some bad CGI. Maz Kanata and Snoke looked extremely generic. Maz didn't bother me because I saw her cartoony but kids will like it. Snoke looked like a bad CGI version of Voldemort.

I found it hard to like Finn. He just looks a bit ordinary to me. Some of his lines were great and the actor did a pretty good job. Just the character isn't that likable. I can't imagine a romance between him and Rey. He seems too goofy in my opinion.

Oh the last fight scene between Rey and Kylo Ren. Rey just appeared very slow...I know she's not an expert with a saber but it didn't seem like they used a stunt double. Would have rather have had a slightly more athletic fight. I really wished they showed her being powerful yet raw with force (TK) attacks.

The Han and Leia scenes seemed forced.

Anyways, overall I loved it. Maybe the 3rd best SW film? I really love Rey. I like Kylo as a villain (love actually) and I like Poe. The overall plot was great, each location was pretty good.

One of the more interesting theories I've read about the movie is that Finn actually *is* force sensitive, and his breaking his programming is the result of the "awakening" in the Force. It would also explain why he's at least competent with the lightsaber despite a complete lack of training.

I hope that theory is true. Finn's training as a Jedi in the next film could redeem some of the problems I had with the character arcs in this movie.

Overall, I liked more things than I disliked.

I thought Carrie Fisher was magnificent. The hard life that she's led in Real Life adds richness and gravity to Leia.

Loved Chewie here, even more than I loved him in the previous films.

Loved all the droids. As manipulative as the scene near the end with R2-D2 was, it pushed all the right buttons for me.

Thought Gwendoline Christie was awesome. Crasher-from-GoBots level awesome, and hope she gets TONS more screentime in the future. There HAS to be a Rey/Phasma duel at some point, or I'll scream!

Harrison Ford is usually, to me, one of those actors who seemed to stop giving a shit decades ago, so I was pleasantly surprised at what seemed to be a genuine twinkle in his eye. That said, I didn't have a problem with Han's fate. I thought J.J. Abrams and Ford and Adam Driver did a good job of keeping us guessing whether or not they'd "go there". I also think it was dramatically sound and not gratuitous.

And I didn't dislike Driver's Kylo Ren as much as other posters in this thread. I think there was a point to his emo angst, which is that he knows deep down that he'll never measure up to anybody he looks up to, on either side of the force. Now, that could prove to be problematic in future installments. I'd be all for a surprise twist where Ren dies and Phasma takes command.

Abrams' direction seemed to me more competent and less frantic than with his first Star Trek film (I didn't see the second.)

Of the newbie heroes, I liked the charismatic Oscar Isaac (Poe Dameron) the best, and agree that he was offscreen for far too long. I thought Daisy Ridley (Rey) was too much of a girly-girl. She lacks ferocity IMO, there's too little fire in her eyes. John Boyega (Finn) seemed hopelessly bland to me, and I think he failed to properly convey any of the inner turmoil of his character. Show, don't tell, John.

As far as where I rank Episode VII, I'd say below IV-VI but above the prequels.



Agreed 100%.

I think it is a mistake to try to compare Episode Seven to the original Star Wars films.

In its time, it was a cultural phenomenon seldom realized since then. There is really no comparison with the current film.

My father was nineteen when he saw what is now called “A New Hope”, and it literally changed the way he looked at the world, and this was almost universally the case.

For example, before Star Wars there basically were no “action figures”. OK, there was GI Joe and Barbie, but “action figures” were not a big deal. Later, films would be made specifically to sell action figures. (Transformers, and so forth)

As far as popular culture, my grandfather was an attorney with Pacific Legal Foundation. In 1977, when the model for legal advocacy was the ACLU, PLF was characterized by the New York Times as “The Darth Vader of public interest law firms”. As “The Empire Strikes Back” and “Return of the Jedi” had not yet screened, they did not mean “possibly capable of redemption”.

The real metric for “The Force Awakens” is its contemporaries. For example, in nearly every review of nearly every Pixar movie, some reviewer writes, effectively, “If this were made by any other studio, it would be nominated for an Academy Award, but we expect so much more from Pixar.” I would say that “The Force Awakens” is at least better than “The Good Dinosaur” and almost as good as “Inside Out”.

Yay! I was eagerly awaiting your review Fickles, because I thought you could end up going either way with it!

Sue Pergirl, I think you raise a good point, but I also think you should also consider that many viewers over 35, myself included, do not usually watch contemporary movies, and usually only do the big-screen experience if it has some kind of connection to their youth. Unadventurous, I know, but speaking only for myself, the days when I sought challenging films over comforting films are over.



Thank you, EDE.

I'd say that the longer it went on, the more it seemed like it might go off the rails, but ultimately it did not, in my opinion.

I think both Sue Pergirl and Fanfic Lady raise the interesting point of, what would people who have NEVER watched a Star Wars film say versus those who have watched every previous film? Case in point, Blaze can't remember watching the original trilogy and his response to the film was lukewarm, whereas mine was positive.

Like Fanfie, I also prepare comforting films over challenging films now But it's very hard to get me to sit down for 90 minutes straight and just watch something; that's why I prefer watching movies at home, if I get bored I can just walk away

Hey, how young do you think I am? I'll be 35 in May.

And I go to lots and lots of movies. Mostly kid's movies. Lots and lots of kids movies. Saw Big Hero Six four times. Even saw Minions, with much regret. Go figure.

My ten-years-younger step-brother has never seen ANY of the Star Wars films. Not even the TV cartoons. He will be going to see it tomorrow. I'll tell you what he thought of it after I see him at Christmas.

Cute story: Several years ago when the Star Wars TV show was very big, we went to a child's birthday party. He got several Star Wars action figures as gifts. He was especially excited about getting young Obi-Wan Kenobi. He showed it to me and asked, "Do you know who this is?" I said, "Yes, that's Obi-Wan Kenobi. He's our only hope." He had no idea what I was talking about. Stared at me like I was nuts.

That's why I said "many viewers over 35", not "all viewers over 35."