Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

Well, considering his run ended well before that mark, it's safe to say there was a lot of story he never got to tell.



That sounds familiar. Where did this run take place? Some time after that Bruce Jones thing, I think? What are some of the broad strokes of what PAD did in the brief return?

It was immediately after the Bruce Jones fustercluck. PAD only managed two story-arcs and one stand-alone issue. The controversial first arc, "Tempus Fugit", was a softboot of sorts which negated the Jones run. It took place on a mysterious island where nothing was what it seemed and things could change from moment to moment. It was also beautifully drawn by Lee Weeks & Tom Palmer.

The stand-alone, drawn by Jae Lee, was a lovely mood piece couched in the murder mystery genre.

The second arc, "Terra Incognita", was part of the House of M event and took place in a re-arranged universe where mutants ruled over humans, with the Hulk carving out his own niche in Australia. It ran concurrently with the Amazing Fantasy storyarc which introduced the female Scorpion, Carmilla Black, and her evil scientist mother, Monica Rapaccini, both of whom also appeared in "Terra Incognita".

In PAD's final issue, the epilogue to "Terra Incognita", the universe is back to what passes for normal, and it is hinted that Carmilla might be Banner's daughter.

Hm. Yeah, a little research shows that Greg Pak's Planet Hulk arc began almost immediately after PAD left. Never read PH, but it certainly seemed to bring about a new era of popularity for the Hulk which lasted a good while going into that Red Hulk stuff and such. I've personally never read any of it, though.

I didn't read any of that, either. Marvel during the mid-late 2000s was a cultural desert, and PAD's X-Factor, for all its ups and down, was an oasis.

Incredible Hulk 383-385

These three issues are far, far better than Marvel Universe Event tie-ins have any right to be (especially when the event is one that I despise as much as the Infinity Gauntlet.)

The core of the first two issues is a beautifully done Phantom of the Opera riff featuring the Abomination and Nadia, a Russian actress performing in the United States who turns out to have been Emil Blonsky's wife before he turned into the Abomination. PAD turns the Hulk's de-powered status (shrunken to fun-size by Thanos) to the story's advantage, eschewing a Hulk/Abomination battle (which he'd already given us during the Countdown arc) in favor of the Hulk...talking to the Abomination, pretending to be the voice of God (PAD acknowledges the debt to the movie "Real Genius", without actually naming the movie) and convincing the Abomination to set Nadia free. Keown matches PAD every step of the way, pushing his Berni Wrightson influence to the fore yet coming up with lovely, ornate atmospherics which are very much his own.

The third issue finds the Hulk and the Pantheon caught in the chaotic backwash of Thanos having deleted half the population of the planet Earth, and trying in vain to quell the resultant riots. It goes without saying that the status quo is restored at the end. Either way, we find PAD here at his darkest and most cynical, with the Hulk spelling it out at the end:

"If what I faced was some sort of mutant that siphoned off dark feelings and violence, then, yes, we won. On the other hand, if what I faced was drawn from the hearts and minds of humans, waiting to be unleashed again...then no. At best...we call this a draw."

Interestingly, PAD went on to deal with the same theme during his Supergirl run, in the issues tying into the Final Night event, featuring Gorilla Grodd as the villain influencing the panicked populace of Lessburg to embrace what he regards as their true, savage selves.

Incredible Hulk 386-388, 390-392

(389 was not written by PAD)

This block of issues finds PAD dealing with heavy issues which were very current in the early 1990s, from the familiar "Would you kill a child if you knew he was destined to become the next Hitler?" conundrum (386-387), to the stigma faced by those who are HIV positive, in this case the Hulk's old friend Jim Wilson (388), to the seemingly never-ending tensions between America and the Middle East (390-392, guest starring X-Factor). Sabra guest stars in the first of these stories, as it takes place in Israel, and I have to say, she's better-written by PAD than I remember her being, especially towards the end. The Jim Wilson story features an effective (and very deadly) new villain, Speedfreek, but ultimately it is one of many well-intentioned (and some not-so-well-intentioned) comic book stories from that time dealing with what are known today as LGBT issues, but which do not hold up very well in hindsight. PAD has been LGBT-friendly his entire adult life, so his sincerity is unquestionable, but the story bears all the earmarks of heavy compromising with Marvel's higher-ups. The Middle East story is by far the best of these, albeit more for the pleasure of seeing Keown draw the members of X-Factor than anything else. In the end, these stories are basically the early 1990s equivalents of the early 1970s Green Lantern/Green Arrow stories by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams -- written with conviction and drawn impeccably, yet curiously unsatisfying. Luckily, PAD would spend the next several issues with the emphasis on entertaining rather than soap-boxing.

Incredible Hulk 393

We're now at the 30th Anniversary of the first Hulk comic book, and the celebration is a great one. Every anniversary issue should be this high in quality.

In the lead story, the Hulk and Rick Jones and the Pantheon kidnap Igor Drenkov, the Russian spy who, years ago, while working undercover in America as Banner's assistant, deliberately failed to stop the countdown to the orignal Gamma Bomb test (back in Incredible Hulk #1), and thus is arguably the person most responsible for the Hulk's creation. The Hulk and company put him through a "Mission: Impossible" style mind-trip to see whether he would do the same thing again. He does. Oh, and the People's Protectorate crash the party, just in time for Igor to go completely around the bend when he can't figure out whether the repercussions of his actions were for the better or for the worse. PAD is in peak form here, and so is Keown. Plenty of thrills, chills, and of course, laughs (and one major unresolved plot thread, regarding the true nature of one of the members of the Protectorate, which would dangle for almost 20 years before she was revealed, by different creators, to be a Dire Wraith.)

The pinups, by artists including the likes of Herb Trimpe, Gil Kane, Sal Buscema, Marie Severin, Walter Simonson, and Jim Starlin, are mostly good, and the Trimpe-drawn backup story, about a career criminal whose plans keep getting undone by different incarnations of the Hulk, is fun. But the best bonus feature is a history of the Hulk told from Doc Samson's point of view.

If there was one PAD Hulk issue I'd recommend to see whether or not this run is your cup of tea, it would be this one.

Incredible Hulk 394-396

The first of these issues introduces Trauma, a warrior from an alien race which was first glimpsed way back when McFarlane was still pencilling the Hulk, and also makes it clearer than ever that the Pantheon are not like other people. Guest pencils are provided by Andrew Wildman, a name familiar to fans of the original Transformers comic book -- they're a bit too 90s, but acceptable.

The next two issues find Keown returning for a really fun little story guest starring the Punisher. Yes, you read that right. An actual good story guest starring the Punisher, who was, at the time, as ubiquitous as Wolverine. In it, the Hulk returns to Las Vegas to avenge the murder of Michael Berengetti, his boss during the Mr. Fixit era of PAD's Hulk run. All in all, a nice little palate cleanser before the epic "Ghosts of the Past" 5-parter, which will dramatically upend the Hulk's status quo.

Heads-up: I'm going to post reviews of Hulk #397-401 sometime this week, and then take an indefinite break from the PAD Hulk re-read. Gods be willing, I will pick up where I leave off sometime in the new year.

Incredible Hulk 397-401

Living up their potential at last thanks to PAD's imaginative writing and Dale Keown's dynamic, dramatic art, the colorful group of Hulk rogues known as the U-Foes (think an evil Fantastic Four who INTENTIONALLY exposed themselves to cosmic rays) more than earn the double-page splash that they're given in 397. The U-Foes turn out to have been hired by the Leader to invade the Pantheon's headquarters and soften up the do-gooders in preparation for the grand entrance of the Leader himself and his elite guard, the Riot Squad. The first Hulk/Riot Squad battle, during the "Countdown" arc, had the misfortune of being drawn by Jeff Purves. The second Hulk/Riot Squad battle, seen in 398, is drawn by Keown, and it makes all the difference in the world. At the end, the fight is stopped by Pantheon leader Agamemnon, who informs the warring parties that he and the Leader have reached an "accord", much to the Hulk's chagrin. Meanwhile, a subplot which had been simmering during the last few issues reaches full boil in 397-398: a woman claiming to be Rick Jones's biological mother turns out to be a murderous psychopath who imprisons Rick in her basement and fatally stabs Marlo Chandler; Betty Banner knocks her out and frees Rick, but it's too late to save Marlo.

Or is it?

After confronting the smartest and most powerful members of the Marvel Universe, asking them to bring Marlo back to life, and coming up empty, Rick Jones is at his wits end when who should approach him with a proposal than the Leader! And he even has proof that he can bring the dead back to life -- the armored Riot Squad goon known as Redeemer is none other than General Thunderbolt Ross!

While all of the above is going on, the Hulk is off sulking until the Pantheon approaches Betty to talk some sense into her husband. Once this is done, Agamemnon informs the Hulk that he has deliberately set up the Leader for the Hulk to smash his mass-murdering nemesis once and for all.

Although the international terrorist organization Hydra is somewhat awkwardly shoehorned in as a plot device, this is still an immensely satisfying story-arc thanks to the characters' vivid emotional lives underpinning the story. The civilized facade that the Hulk has been sporting since 379 falls away completely at the climax, when the precognitive vision of the Hulk laughing during a rampage, as seen in 382, comes frighteningly true. Rick's desperation, the Leader's arrogance, and Agamemnon's cold calculation all come together brilliantly by the heartbreaking end.

But wait, there's more. In the epilogue, PAD sets up the Hulk's new status quo when Agamemnon tells the Hulk that he plans to take a hiatus from leading the Pantheon and go wander the world for a while, leaving the Hulk in his place to lead!

Artistically, 399-401 suffer from Keown's abrupt departure (poached by Image), with mostly adequate but sometimes jarringly ugly art by Jan Duursema in 399, the first half of 400, and 401, and Chris Bachalo in the second half of 400. But the sense that 400 is the grandiose climax of the plot threads that PAD has been weaving in and out of the book for the past 70 issues, is still immensely satisfying.

And I think this is as good a place as any to temporarily end the PAD Hulk re-read. Gods be willing, I'll be able to review the remaining 67 issues sometime next year. My thanks to Lardy and Thoth and anyone else who has been following my reviews.

Sorry to see these on hiatus. I hope you can come back to them.

I was shuffling through some comics the other day, and came across Planetary. They have a Fantastic Four knock off. They deliberately set themselves up to receive cosmic powers and are villainous. So possibly inspired by the U-Foes origin.

Thank you, Thoth.

You may be right about Planetary's evil FF being inspired by the U-Foes. The latter, sad to say, have never again been as awesome as they were in that Hulk arc. Last I saw of them, they were background characters in Bendis' Avengers stories. I'd like to see a Thunderbolts-esque scenario where they actually replace the unavailable FF.

It's been a pleasure. I'm sorry that I couldn't read along with you, but my Hulk collection is difficult to access these days. I also wish my memory of the run was a little sharper, so I could comment more. I would love for Marvel to give the run the Omnibus treatment for many reasons.

No worries, Lardy. There's a Hulk Epic Collection trade that came out last month, picking up where the last Hulk Visionaries: Peter David trade left off, so hopefully the cream of the run will be completely available in trades soon.

And I still haven't decided what my next re-read is going to be.

I've finally decided on my next re-read:

It's another PAD opus, albeit a much shorter one -- the first 26 issues of the IDW "Fallen Angel" series.

If I had the collections of the DC "Fallen Angel", I'd certainly include them, but they've been hard to come by. Besides, I came aboard the "Fallen Angel" train in "real time" shortly after the IDW launch.

Lardy, could you please update the thread's subtitle? Thank you in advance.

I know that series had a lot of fans here at Legion World, and I hope you will chime in with your memories and/or by reading along with me.

Slight change in plans:

Shortly after reading the first five IDW issues of Fallen Angel -- which hold up beautifully, BTW -- I found myself going in a different direction. What started out as research for a fanfic project has turned into a full-blown re-read of one of the most neglected eras of Marvel's Fantastic Four -- the period that starts with Jack Kirby's abrupt departure in 1970 and ends with John Byrne taking over the book as writer/artist in 1981.

This is a much-maligned era, and while its reputation is not entirely unjustified, it's not entirely deserved, either.

It does get off to an undeniably shaky start, with Kirby exiting shortly after kicking off a new storyline (issues 102-104) which pits the FF against the double threat of Magneto and Namor the Sub-Mariner. You have to feel sorry for poor John Romita Senior, drafted by editor/scripter Stan Lee at the last second for a job that played against most of his greatest skills. To add insult to injury, the story is an all-out dud, with both Magneto and Namor -- two of Marvel's greatest anti-heroes -- coming off badly. The two-parter which follows, also drawn by Romita and featuring forgettable one-shot villains, is equally blah.

Things pick up a bit when John Buscema comes aboard as the new full-time FF penciller. Even though Big John is my favorite comic book artist, I'd always been dismissive of his FF work, because while he was more dynamic than Romita, the two artists had the common flaw of being craftsmen rather than innovators, and the FF always works best with a rawer, more innovative approach to the visuals.

That said, Big John's earliest FF work is much better than I remember it being, and Joe Sinnott's inking, which I'd always felt was better suited for bold stylists like Kirby than delicate illustrators like Big John, is also much more suitable than I remembered.

Even so, the first Lee/Buscema arc (107-113, with 108 consisting mostly of pages Kirby had worked on before he quit) is very 1970s in a bad way -- overlong and by-the-numbers, with yet another variation on the Thing being "cured" (this time, he can switch back and forth from human to monster) which as always goes disastrously wrong (he becomes dangerously unstable); this segues into yet another fight against the Hulk, who appears to kill the Thing, but, naturally, the status quo is restored at the end.

The next arc (113-116) is much better, and the secret ingredient is the great Archie Goodwin, who takes over the writing from Stan Lee in mid-story, but does it with a seamlessness we'd expect from a talent such as Goodwin's. The Overmind is a credible threat, the Invisible Girl takes her first steps toward becoming more than just the team's token female, the surprise alliance with Doctor Doom is well-done, and even the deus ex machina ending is ultimately forgivable.

So there is gold amid the muck after all, and I'll be searching for more gold for the foreseeable future (unless, of course, the book gets so bad that I get sick of it and stop, but I'm trying to stay optimistic.)

P.S. Lardy, could you please alter the thread's sub-title to read "Post-Kirby/Pre-Byrne FF"? Thanks in advance.

[grumble]Slave driver![/grumble]

LOL



Thanks again, Lardy.

This is definitely an excellent and under-discussed era / topic of one of comicdom's franchise titles. Traditionally, I've held it in a very negative light, and when compared to Kirby and Byrne that is amplified. Yet, all that being said, there's still some good and at times even great over the course of this 100+ issue run.

I know both Romita and Buscema lamented being given duties on the title and have spoken at length about it over the years since. So I can forgive their hearts not being in it. Both are still icons though and I suspect both showcase their skills in places. I'm especially curious about Sinnott inking Buscema. I read these issues over 20 years ago when I was a tween so my impressions on the art are very vague. But a recent Thor reread about 8 or so years ago reminded me that Buscema's artwork was astoundingly good at times during that run--so when I remember it being okay it was very good and when I remember it being good it was great!

I can hardly remember the Archie Goodwin story but again my recent Iron Man reread proved that anytime Archie touched a Marvel comic it was almost always pure gold. I'm fascinated to see how that translates to thr FF.

Keep these coming Fanfie!

Thank you for chiming in Cobie. Looking forward to more of your thoughts about this era of the FF.

Archie Goodwin only stuck around long enough to plot and script a two-parter in 117-118, but it's splendid IMO. Crystal and Lockjaw are tricked into drinking Diablo's mind-control potion, and Crystal ends up posing as a Mayan goddess in a fictional Central American country which Diablo wants to conquer. The Latin stereotypes are forgivable in the context of the times (and, thankfully, Crystal does NOT don body makeup the way Claremont had the Nova Romans do a decade later, in New Mutants), and Big John really shines here, as though the superiority of Goodwin's writing inspired him to put in 100% effort. It helps, too, that 118 is inked not by Sinnott but by Jim Mooney, who was more sympathetic with Big John's style.

After a socially-conscious (*cough* ham-fisted *cough*) fill-in script by Roy Thomas guest-starring the Black Panther, 120-125 give us Stan Lee's final word on the FF, and the results are not good. An initially promising new cosmic villain, Gabriel the Air-Walker, turns out to be a disposable plot device so that Lee can essentially re-hash the Galactus Trilogy. And then, bizarrely, we get a trite two-parter about not judging a book by its cover, featuring an aquatic creature from the tail end of Kirby's run.

There's nowhere to go from there but up, yet Roy Thomas stumbles out of the gate with his opening three-parter in 126-128. I give him points for bringing back the obscure Silver Age Iron Man villainess Kala, Queen of the Netherworld, but neither she, nor the Mole Man, nor Tyrannus make much of an impression here.

Roy finds his second wind with 129, where he introduces Thundra; I've always found her an underrated character, though I'm sure a lot of that has to do with my introduction to her being in the middle of my beloved Harras/Epting Avengers run. But having finally read her first appearance, I have to say she arrived fairly close to fully formed -- it's a good potboiler with Thundra as the mysterious new member of the Frightful Four. For good measure, her predecessor, Medusa, also joins in the fray. Big John appears to have enjoyed drawing 129-130 more than the last few issues.

Running parallel to the F4 vs F4 plot is the Human Torch's voyage to the Inhumans' Great Refuge, where he hopes to rekindle his relationship with Crystal, only to find her growing closer all the time to ex-Avenger Quicksilver. The revolt of the Alpha Primitives led by the gigantic Omega is decent enough plot fodder. By the time the two storylines intersect and resolve in 132, Medusa has taken the Invisible Girl's place in the FF, and the Torch acquires his short-lived red costume (because Roy wanted him to look more like Roy's beloved Golden Age Human Torch.) While the story as a whole is satisfying, it's hard not to feel that Reed and Johnny are both absolute jerks, something I've felt very frequently about them throughout their existence.

Also worth noting: 130-131 have gorgeous Steranko covers and Ross Andru does a decent guest-penciling job in 131.

Did Archie do a lot of Iron Man? I know he had a long run on Marvel's original Star Wars series (running from issues 11-50 with some fill-ins), and it was really excellent, imo, as I can affirm from my recent SW Omnibus reading. Largely, though, it seems like he didn't have many extended runs as a writer.

By Archie's own admission, he tended to flit from one book to another (and, for a while, from one publisher to another.) His Iron Man run was, IIRC, the first 28 issues of the solo book which IM graduated to in 1968. IMO, Archie's Iron Man scripts are excellent, but they had the double misfortune of being mostly pencilled by George Tuska with totally inappropriate inks by Johnny Craig (who did do some great work on the EC horror books of the 1950s). The run actually started with Craig on pencils and Tuska on inks, but that looked so bad that Stan Lee switched them almost immediately.

Yeah, he never spent a lot of time anywhere, but Iron Man was probably the longest he was ever in any one spot at Marvel during the late Silver Age / early Bronze Age.

I personally loved his Iron Man run and by the end of it was a full-blown fan of Tuska and Craig. I thought their art paired with Archie's stories worked nicely. Of course it helps that Archie wrote a plethora of really terrific tales.

In the Iron Man thread I reviewed them all. Starting right here I start to review the Archie issues. (Note though that I reviewed each one after I read it, so there isn't really an aggregate opinion).

I'm not surprised to hear his FF story is terrific. The man was a master storyteller and knew how to craft plot & character perfectly--and usually without entire runs of issues to build off of.

Thanks for the Iron Man reviews link, Cobie. I'll dive right in! Yippee!

Goodwin was so talented that even his script for the first issue of the event bookend "Armageddon 2001" was outstanding. I really wish he'd scripted the second issue...but only with the original ending. It may be sentimental foolishness speaking, since A2001 was my introduction to the DCU, but I really wish they would print an A2001 Omnibus, with the original ending restored. I'd buy it even if I had to go hungry for a week, that's how much I love that event.

Further thoughts:

I always loathed Stan's final FF story and felt it was representative of how little he had to do with the series when it was good. The same could be said for his somewhat lackluster final Spider-Man story with the spider-slayers. That view might not totally be fair because by 1972 or so Stan was occupied with other things, but I still can't help but feel that way.

#126-128 is a classic Roy Thomas mediocre story: usually inspired by a desire to dredge up some part of continuity he thinks only he remembers, it carries with it a lot of novelty that one can't help feel some appeal for. But for the most part it trips all over itself as Roy gets caught up in doing things besides telling a story. Which isn't to say all of Roy's stories are like that. Often times he could be pretty great. But just as often he could be pretty mediocre.

I do agree about Thundra though. I always liked her and feel she is a nice, fully realized character that shines in her appearances from the start. I especially like her when she interacts with the FF (and the Thing in particular).

While I never truly liked the Crystal / Quicksilver relationship, I did like the drama it caused for Johnny & Crystal. More than that, I loved the inter-company drama it caused for Marvel during this era. Between Crystal & Quicksilver and Starlin's Thanos, the Avengers, FF, Defenders and a whole host of titles seemed to be interacting with one another pretty regularly and it was cool to see. (Especially when Steve Englehart was at the helm).

I agree Johnny comes off as a jerk but it doesn't seem too far-fetched for him to be such. Reed, however, acts totally out of character and Roy takes him down a dark path here that numerous other writers will pursue. I hate when Reed is written as a prick, and think he basically acts that way throughout all of Roy's run. It makes all the Reed scenes and Sue scenes totally annoying for me and takes the joy right out of those stories.

Honestly, if Marvel was truly starting to doubt the appeal of the married with children Reed & Sue in 1972 or whatever, they should have moved them towards retirement right there and then. Kirby was gone and already multitudes of Marvel fans were turning their back on the FF (my father and uncle included). If there was ever a time to say "fuck it, let's use this as an opportunity", they could have decided to make the team the Thing, the Torch, Crystal and Thundra, with the Thing being able to turn back and forth between human and monster, as Reed's final gift.

I don't think that's too unbelievable for the Marvel of 1967 BTW. For the Marvel of 1972 though, unfortunately it was. But I've really digressed.