Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 11

It is kind of interesting seeing how Rokk was portrayed in this era when nowadays the accepted portrayal is that he's a calm collected intelligent leader and Garth is the brash immature one!

Superboy #212

The Legion of Super-Rejects story is one of those ones that is full of little novelties that make it pleasing to a committed LSH reader but when taken on its own as a story kind of comes up pretty short. The concept itself, hitting on the concept of several Legionnaires coming from planets full of potential replacements, is a natural one rife for exploration so kudos to Shooter for thinking of it. The subsequent anxiety the Legionnaires feel and the desire to prove themselves in an official battle is natural too.

But the resolution leaves me feeling unfulfilled. I get what he's going for--teamwork and cleverness make a Legionnaire. But those things are taught, and I doubt all of the Legionnaires themselves knew that on day one. So really...no one actually ever proves the Rejects wrong. No one fights for and wins their spot like one does on a sports team. So I don't love it.

This issue is noteworthy because it eliminates the last Adventure era member that I consider part of the "70's housecleaning". I hate to see my man Tenzil leave but I've always known it to happen now so I accept it. I do like how it's done though: Shooter lived through a time in US history when the draft was terrifying beyond belief; yet he turns that here into something similar but oddly intriguing. Perhaps drafting politicians would be 100x better? I think it's kind of brilliant!

I also get the sense Calorie Queen had more planned, and Shooter was setting her up to join? Somewhere, someone put the kibosh on that! I guess they finally got the Bismollion out after over a decade of jokes and didn't want to trade him in for another.

Meanwhile, I like a lot of other things:

- Ferro Lad statue in the beginning is a nice touch.

- I also like how Cos and Cham are kind of dicks to the rejects. I mean c'mon. If it was me my response would be "fuck off junior I've got work to do". Especially if I was founder or leader of the Espionage Squad.

- and lastly, the sexiness factor is through the roof here! Grell really goes for it about the Rejects! Cal and especially Esper Lass look good. And I know Lash and other "leg men" love that Phantom Lad.

------------------

As for the second story, I'll say this: I've never liked it because Cos acts like such a jerk. It's so over the top that I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and find out its an all an act. But it's not.

But here's what I do like:

- Night Girl and her new costume reach new levels of sexiness that are inconceivable. Perhaps the hottest character / costume ever.

- Crafty Colson is a super obscure villain who appears twice! This is his first one.

- a clone of Charles Bronson is a movie star in the 31st century! Because there's no way Death Wish 3 survived 1,000 years.

- Sinde gets one panel but gets dozens of threads on Legion World, inspiring hilarity beyond imagining. I'll always owe her for all those laughs!

Otherwise, the less said about this one the better.

Catching up on comments, let me first say: WOW!! I never knew there was a missing page and it totally makes sense. It sounds like it doesn't improve the story at all, which is pretty impossible to do, but at least it addresses a real narrative bump in the story structure.

Also love Thoth's insight about Lydda's feelings for Rokk being influenced by a desire to win her father's love. I think that's pretty spot on.

HWW, love that you drew a pick of the team with Cal on it. Makes total sense after reading the issue!

All in all: tough issue to read though great to look at.

Perhaps someone can scan in the missing page. In the meantime, here's my "trans-script" of the page:

Panel 1. KK and Tenz in the rec room. KK's hand on Tenz's shoulder.

KK: I saw what happened! Superboy doesn't understand how important pride can be . . . He has a variety of powers, but the rest of us have to prove to ourselves we deserve to be Legionnaires!

Panel 2. Tenz turns to face KK.

Tenz: Maybe I don't deserve to belong, Karate Kid! Being able to eat and digest any kind of matter isn't exactly world-shaking! Lots of times I felt as though I didn't qualify for the Legion!

Panel 3. Two-shot: Tenz, in shadow grimaces looks ashamed as KK looks on.

Tenz: To top it off, I got clobbered by a girl! Maybe I should quit and let her take my place!

KK: Come on--a Legionnaire doesn't always win . . .

Panel 4. With a dismissive wave, KK walks off, leaving Tenz with clenched fists.

KK: ... but he always fights! If you want to chicken out, do it before the action! Don't cave in when the others are counting on you!

Panel 5. Full shot of Tenz alone, defeated.

No dialogue.

Thanks, thoth.

You know, in re-reading that page, it occurs to me that, while Tenz's "clobbered by a girl" line may sound sexist today, it made perfect sense at the time. I imagine adolescent boys of any generation hate the idea of being beaten by a girl. It's one of those "manly" notions that males adopt as they struggle to understand their own roles as they grow up and what it means to be masculine.

I still see this attitude in my students, many of whom are active duty military members. The subject of women in combat frequently comes up, and the male soldiers almost always oppose the idea. They claim that it would be distracting for male soldiers, who have a natural desire to protect women, and that women cannot meet the physical requirements of combat. (Of course, there are many examples which prove otherwise.) My female soldier students are invariably in favor of women serving in combat.

Given the notion that Tenz never had been "beaten by a girl" before, his self-doubt here may be easier to understand (though still misguided).

Before this thread slips out of sight, I wanted to add some thoughts on 211 and 212, the last two that I didn't get a chance to comment on.

211:

First, I'd like to say that 211's lead story, "The Ultimate Revenge", was my very favorite of this volume. The story itself was pretty darned good, but it's made even better by how it revolves around Legion history. First, it has the terrific idea to follow up on the most tragic thing to ever happen to a Legionnaire by revisiting the genocide of Element Lad's people. Second, it incorporates Thom's killing of Kenz Nuhor to enhance Jan's story.

Many Legion stories, particularly the more recent in the Archive editions, seem mostly to tell their tales in a vacuum. Yes, some villains return and what-not, but rarely has the vast body of stories already told been utilized to delve into the Legion's backstory or enhance the current story with some perspective on what's happened before. Here, both do, and I really loved it.

In Element Lad's original intro, what happened to his people is kind of glazed over. Here, we find out exactly how Trom's demise was carried out and revisit what was intended as a one-shot villain and how he's dealing with what he'd wrought.

It's all fascinating as is Jan's decision to carry out his vengeance, rather than turn the other cheek. Only Condo's quick thinking prevents it. I think that realization is key for him and helps Jan move on to the spritual take on the tragedy that we later see him adapt. Plus, with how it ends for Roxxas, you can start to fill in the blanks from here and when we (presumably) next see him in 5YL.

It seems, though, that maybe Jan should have at least been court-martialled, as the murderous intent was clearly there and was only averted due to Condo's quick thinking. I like to think, though, that the Legion chose to look the other way out of compassion for him. Though Superboy, for example, had lost his people as well, it was not due to the sheer malevolence of one man and his gang of space-pirates as it was here.

It's a great story on a number of levels. Subtle and not over-done. And, again, I love Thom's inclusion and the perspective he has to offer based on his own experiences. The Legionnaires have a wealth of backstory to be re-examined and explored. It's nice to see Shooter do so here, especially, revisiting stories that were originally told by other creators and that preceded his original run on the characters.

As for "The Legion's Lost Home"? Not much to say there. It was cute and ultimately, as the Hitchhiker's Guide says about Earth, "mostly harmless".

212, I just read today, as a matter of fact. (I had read 211 about the same time as the rest of you but got derailed by a change at work and, sadly, by Dev's death.)

I thought the lead story "Last Fight for a Legionnaire" was entertaining and featured a pretty decent alternate take from what other Legion rejects had done. I thought it was interesting for applicants from the same planets and with the same powers as current Legionnaires to challenge the powers duplication rule and do so by proving themselves better at what they do and potentially getting in as replacements for that reason.

Hoestly, I was fully expecting the re-match to be one-on-one with each Legionnaire proving themselves against his or her challenger. That didn't happen, except ironically with Tenzil out-smarting Calorie Queen. While I can see the "teamwork" point Shooter was making, I would have liked to have seen each Legionnaire ultimately proven superior after all were handed their asses a few pages earlier.

And, of course, we get three future LSVers out of this story: Esper Lass, Magno Lad and Micro Lad. I thought at first that the Durlan would be Chameleon Chief until I remembered that the Chief was already an LSVer and appeared only a few issues ago.

I really love Calorie Queen's design and wouldn't have minded at all had she taken Tenzil's place. Speaking of Tenzil, it was interesting to finally see the story where he got drafted and be reminded in the caption that it helps pay off where we see him in Shooter's Adult Legion story. I also can't help but smile thinking of where this takes him 5YL. It does, however, make me wonder about the circumstances that bring him to eat the Miracle Machine and get driven insane by its consumption in another story that I haven't read yet. I wonder when it happens?

As for "A Death Stroke at Dawn", it's really a shame to see Shooter's misogynistic attitudes out themselves in a story again. "Again" meaning, I don't know how much there has been in his previous LSH stories, but there is certainly ample evidence in his later stories I've recently read, such as in his Avengers run.

What starts out looking like an awesome Shady-Lydda team-up story just devolves into a portrait of a woman with no self-respect and her knuckle-dragging neanderthal of a boyfriend. I'd love to say that this is Shooter trying to inject some reality into these characters by portraying a very imperfect and, sadly, somewhat realistic relationship, but I think this is/was how he thought couples were supposed to relate. I don't know if this is his own poorly developed view of relationships or if it somehow reflects his own parents' relationship that he took for "normal". In any case it persists throughout his later writings and is definitely a huge flaw in his works.

"Testing the waters" for a possible return to the re-read...



Lardy, that mirrors my own thoughts about this story and about Shooter in general 100%, and it was so beautifully put, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

He was talented, no doubt about that. I consider four of the six stories of his in this volume to be among his very best work, and regret that I was too messed up at the time to review them. But it's all too clear he had what might be called..."issues" with women.

I've never met the man, but I get the impression -- from analyzing his stories, reading interviews with him and articles about him -- that he had to grow up way too fast. And when that happens to people, they often times turn out, shall we say, underdeveloped in emotional and social matters.

What I think he really needed was a hard-ass editor (i.e. Mort Weisinger) who could rein in his more disturbing and self-indulgent tendencies. That his creepy sexual politics first surfaced late in the Adventure run (the ending of the Taurus Gang story in Volume 8) IMO lends credence to the theory that Weisinger was delegating a lot his editorial duties shortly before he retired. And, of course, at Marvel, Shooter was EiC for most of the time he was there, so there was nobody to stop him from writing and/or plotting some very disturbing stories indeed.

On the topic of Mort Weisinger and young Jim Shooter, Weisinger was actually pretty abusive toward him and I wouldn't be surprised if some of those experiences carried over into how Shooter would later handle his own editorial reigns at Marvel.

To quote some posters at CBR on the subject,

Weisinger's methods were undeniably harsh, but he got good results. He treated all his writers badly, not question about that. Jerry Siegel quit working for him even though he was turning out some of the best scripts of his life. Unfortunately, that's just how it often goes in the entertainment industry. It attracts extreme personalities -- the hyper-sensitive and the under-sensitive. Frequently, it's the latter who end up in charge.

Is it a coincidence then that Shooter's reign in Marvel was arguably their best period creatively and from a maintenance of tight continuity standpoint?

I don't fully agree, Stalgie, but there was certainly a good amount of significant work being turned out from Marvel at that time, although I think a lot of the credit for the tight continuity would have to go to the late Mark Gruenwald.

According to Sean Howe's book "Marvel Comics: The Inside Story", Shooter became such a micro-managing tyrant his last two or three years at Marvel that he arguably ended up tearing down what he had built up (Exhibit A: Secret Wars and Secret Wars II.)

That's also a good point, Fanfie. Gruenwald was definitely one of the top notch continuity hounds in comics at the time and I'm sure Shooter's tenure would not be as fondly remembered by fans without him.



Ugh, Secret Wars.

Aside from alienating many creators, that may be the one major creative dark mark on his Marvel era resume. Shooter single-handedly invented the dumb, storyless event comic overnight with Secret Wars.

Something else else I forgot to mention in earlier posts was that Weisinger and most of the writers who worked for him came from a generation that was discouraged from challenging authority and/or risking job security. Shooter was almost alone among his peers with the old-school attitudes he learned from Weisinger, so there was bound to be friction.

As for events, there have been many that I've liked a great deal, including the original event, "The Avengers-Defenders War", which was published over a decade before "Secret Wars". I think Shooter set a bad precedent with both of the original Secret Wars events -- the first one was dumbed down because, with the toy line attached, it was aimed at grade-schoolers; the second was just a gross exercises in undiluted egomania. I haven't read the "Unity" event from the early 90s when Shooter was running Valiant Comics, but I think it's telling that the main baddie was a woman.

You're welcome. But thanks right back atcha for opening my eyes about Shooter's misogynism last year when I reviewed the Korvac Saga. I certainly thought of you as I wrote my reaction to the Night Girl story.



I'd be curious to hear which ones those were and what your thoughts were on them!

Awwww...you're welcome, Lardy.

Re: the four Shooter stories in this volume that I liked, I think "Soljer" is unbelievably powerful yet never preachy or heavy-handed, and Grell really seemed to be giving the art his all; the Karate Kid story is a superior potboiler which engaged me despite my dislike for the character; the Super-Rejects story again has exceptional Grell art, as well as plenty of good character bits, although I agree with you that the resolution could have been better; and the Element Lad/Roxxas story is a great study in how far even a gentle soul like Jan can be pushed, yet still end up making the morally right decision; that's why I think Erin should have been killed by Roxxas in 5YL as originally planned -- would Jan have been able to pass this test the way the passed the previous one? We'll never know, outside of fan fiction.

Lardy and Fanfie--welcome back to the reviews (and welcome, Kappa Kid, er, Stalgie).

Lardy, you're right about "The Ultimate Revenge" springing out of two previous Adventure stories. At the time, I think this is what I enjoyed most about the story--that the Legion had a past which could be used as a springboard for current stories. (Marvel did this routinely, but it was still unexplored territory at DC.)

I also agree that Jan should have been court martialed. Regardless of how the incident turned out, the intent to murder was there.

Um, I'm not sure what you mean about Jan passing the test in 211, Fanfie. In my view, he failed.

Thanks, He Who.

One caveat: I may not be returning full-time to the re-read until Volume 13, when Shooter and Boltinoff give way to Levitz and O'Neil. Volume 12 just has too much dreck in it, IMO.

Well, I see his decision not to kill Roxxas as passing the test. But there is admittedly a lot of moral gray in that story (which is what makes it so good.) I'll have to re-re-read it, and also look at what you guys said about it earlier in this thread.

Thanks! It was never my intent to leave, but things happen. Other than work stuff, it really was hard to get back into the flow of reviewing stories after losing Dev. It just seemed a trivial thing in light of his tragedy. But I ultimately know he'd want us to continue doing what we love, just as he would.



DC was soooo behind the curve on this sort of thing! It's hard not to prefer same-era Marvel when past stories routinely affected current stories, magnifying their significance, with the latter. Nothing wrong with standalones but continuity and call-backs certainly are rewarding for long-time readers. Plus, this story far from alienates newer readers as everything they need to know is recapped.



I'm torn. Part of me says it totally should have happened. The other part is happy that the Legionnaires showed compassion for him and let it go.

Ooooooh-kay. I had forgotten about the Chem twist. Like I said, I was really messed up around the time I was re-reading the last few stories in this volume, so even an important detail like that got by me.

Jan did pull the trigger, but he also learned something important about himself when he realized it wasn't what he wanted. So in that sense, he passed the test.

Good point, Lardy. That's more or less what I was thinking but couldn't quite articulate.