Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 11

I read the issue when he was made leader just recently but now I can't remember which one it was! Somewhere in Archive 5 or 6 I think?

This has made me want to look at who was leader in which stories, in particular what stories happened during Lyle's term. I know some of it but not all. Is there a list somewhere of who was leader when? I have a list of their order (and possible year depending on your chronology) but is there a list that has the issues? I'm sure I've seen one in the past somewhere. Anyone know where?

Never mind. I've found in a chronology in a copy of Legion Outpost II number 2 which states when leaders appointed and which issue.

Funnily enough, I did attempt to post about Jacques a couple days ago, but my stupid computer fritzed out on the internet connection at just the moment I submitted the post. I took that as a sign that it wasn't meant to be. However, I'm always happy to honor a request by Lardy, so here we go again...

I, personally, think Jacques started out as a shameless, cynical attempt to cash in on the popularity of the Legion's Marvel counterparts/rivals, the X-Men, specifically Chris Claremont's then-current tenure on that property. The cheesy accent and the tokenism and the whole looking-at-Darkseid-turns-him-into-Cupcake-Head stuff all combined to leave a bad taste for me. Could he have transcended that? Sure. There are no bad characters, only bad writers. DID he transcend that? My answer would honestly have to be "I don't know," because IIRC, when I stopped reading the 5YL due to the S. Erin fiasco, Jacques had only shown up for a panel or two here and there, so never got the sense of how he measured up to his new role as the leader of the resistance. So overall, I put a big question mark over Jacques. And, sad to say, I've never been particularly inclined to explore his potential in fan fiction the way I have some other Legion characters I dislike, but as the saying goes, never say never...

I liked Jacques if for no other reason than that he was a completely different character than his predecessor -- not just because he was black but because of his role as a newbie on team who wasn't certain of this whole hero thing.

In this first appearance (LSH Annual # 1), he's just Danielle's brother, who has brought her to the Legion so they can help with her illness. He's not impressed by the Legion and seems rather antagonistic, yet he does what he must when he learns he's the only one who can save the day. (In a way here, Levitz seemed to be playing off the "angry young black man" stereotype which derailed Tyroc as a character, but Jacques seemed more real and had a personal reason for being antagonistic since his sister's life was at stake.)

His induction into the Legion seemed abrupt, however, and I agree that the "skunk hair" was an unnecessary attempt to make him visually distinct (as if being black in the Legion wasn't distinct enough). However, my standout memory of that scene is that when he reappeared from being invisible, he was shaking--as one would expect from an encounter with the Servants of Darkness! Jacques, in other words, showed his vulnerability more than perhaps any Legionnaire before him.

Later when he discovered the aspect of his invisibility power which allowed him to teleport, he demonstrated more humanity and, I think realism. Most Legionnaires are shown to be "experts" at using their powers and rarely make mistakes. But Jacques' teleportation snuck up on him and was something he couldn't control. However, Dr. Gym'll gave him a choice of having either the teleportation power or the invisibility power removed, or both (and thereby returning to being a normal person). Jacques, to his credit, chose to keep invisibility--potentially the less powerful ability, but the one he could control--thus demonstrating his commitment to remaining a hero.

Fanfie, I think Jacques really came into his own during the last half of the 5YL run, first as leader of a resistance movement that saw the subs finally being portrayed as the heroes they truly were, then the reluctant leader of the liberated Earth itself (what was left of it). He was one of the few characters that maintained his integrity during the awful Legion On The Run issues, and to this day I consider Jacques and Drura to be one of the sexiest couples in the history of comics.

I appreciate the recommendation, Hermit, but there's just too many things I dislike about that era to read any more of it. Sorry.

I agree that Lyle shirked his duty, but I don't see that as necessarily an indictment of him as a character or of Bates as a writer.

For the most part, we never did get to see very much of the Legionnaires' personalities in those days or during the Silver Age, so we're left to "fill in the blanks" from little information we do have. As such, it's understandable if readers feel Lyle was acting out of character here (or Mon was acting out of character back in # 190, when he expressed doubts about being leader). But if we step away from our own perceptions of the characters (or what we imagine the characters to be like), we may get a sense of more rounded--and realistic--personalities.

How to reconcile the Adventure leader Lyle with the Lyle who shirks his duty? A couple of possibilities: Lyle was new to being in love--and, as most can attest, being in love plays havoc with one's priorities and values. Also, Lyle knew it was "just" a training exercise, so perhaps he thought he could afford to sneak away briefly and return before his absence made a difference. (That's not how it turned out, of course.)

I also think he may have started to lose interest in the Legion at this time. When he tells Phantom Girl he plans to bring Myla back at his wife, he must know that getting married would require him to leave the Legion. Yet he never seems bothered by this possibility.

None of this excuses his actions. Mon was right to punish him. But I do think it makes his character more human.




I never watched CSI: Miami, but I grew up on Hill Street Blues and St. Elsewhere, and later enjoyed Homicide: Life On the Street. These three shows portrayed cops or doctors as human beings whose often heroic actions are tempered by human fallibility. In one HSB episode, Officer Andy Renko carelessly opens his car door in traffic as a car passes by and hits the door, causing it to fly off. St. E's good-looking Dr. Bobby Caldwell (Mark Harmon) was a womanizer who famously contracted AIDS. On Homicide, two detectives unwittingly allowed a murderer (played memorably by Lily Tomlin) to escape, allowing her to kill again.

Fallible heroes have to struggle harder to be heroes; to me, that makes them more heroic.

I didn't notice that, and you're right. Having a lot of it set in the trophy room, or having Brainy's close up Mento beam thingy distracted me. I wonder if it's going to have an impact in a story set outside, as Cockrum's cityscapes were excellent.



I wonder if there's something about a hero who gives their life, that elevates them to a character status that they didn't normally have. Lyle had a good run as leader with Shooter, but I think that other writers saw him as an infrequently used weak link. Just noticed that stile86 also considers that legends can grow over time.

I certainly thought more of later versions of the character, than perhaps the first one. I feel that Lyle had a number of those minor cameo roles that HWW mentioned. A few “appears as Legion statue only” appearances too, no doubt.



Yeah, I get that feeling too. I wondered if it was just me getting used to the different story lengths, moving from back up to full feature. But I do prefer having these stories in a single issue, rather than spread out. There's a certain emotional punch from these, going all the way back to Adventure, that I don't think I'd get in a 12 issue Bendis arc to get to the same point.



That could well have been what Levitz was going for when Lyle made his reappearance. I wouldn’t have known that when I first read it. But having read both stories, it’s very odd that Myla didn’t return or wasn’t hinted at.

From the original story, it seemed to be that she was there to avoid Lyle dying with unknown sexuality; to give him a “happy” ending and to give him a bit of a spotlight before the end.




Ah, sorry Paladin. It’s been a busy little issue for comments. No doubt there’s a DC executive going “ …and it was a death issue. Killing things *must* be more popular!” Behind him, Giffen is going “…and we can start with Karate Kid!”



That’s a good point about the character. I wonder if the regular introduction of viewpoint characters allows successive groups of readers to connect with the team. I was going to call them “Jumping On” characters, but that would just start the lewd comments :) I doubt they think far enough ahead to see the appeal of such a thing, or to think about who they’d have to shuffle out of the cast to keep it manageable.

I liked Jacques well enough as a character. But, his origin as an inheritor of Lyle’s formula was also what limited him. He couldn’t influence stories in the way that Lyle could through his own scientific skills. You’re right that his scenes gave us a fresh view of the team. But they also showed his limitations as a result. We saw the Academy, but partly because Jacques needed to get trained. We got to see if his powers could be adjusted (a tradition since the Adventure days of Light Lass) but that was because his teleportation was unstable. That sort of thing. So, while it made his distinctive and vulnerable, too much of it could also build up to make him ineffective.

When he was shown to be politically adept, was when he finally got to have a role of his own. That would have been the time to move him on and to let someone else be the new viewpoint character. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see more of that. It went well with his powers. But they called it Action or Adventure Comics, not Political Espionage Monthly.



That’s certainly the way I read it. It does leave a lasting impression about his character. Although he did figure out the plot, it’s his mooning over the dead girl that stands out more. Still, that’s him in love I guess. The Legion’s other scientist went a bit nuts thinking that his lost love had been resurrected. So, it could have been worse.



That might have been one I answered, not long after I’d taken a good look through everyone’s appearances. That would also be where I get the idea that he made quite a few cameos and appearances as a statue only from too.

He was considered to be a weaker character, which is odd considering just how useful his power is in so many situations. I think Jacques was often almost killed as well though (see sudden ability to teleport). I don’t think Invisibility was used terribly well by the Legion



I’d not argue with any of that. However, there’s another side to it. It took *ages* for Jacques’ resistance to have any effect. Based on his own combat training, I’d have to conclude it was Tyroc and the subs themselves that made them into an effective unit, more than it was Jacques.

While Jacques & Drura were great together, that was just when the team lost whatever little focus it had left. I recall his plans for the team with all the new codenames, and it just drifted way.

He was effective in the Legion on the Run arc, but he had been moved into supporting cast territory as part of it. Which leads me back to Paladin’s feel that he may be a “meh” character for us. I think he’s distinctive and has a place. But he’s better suited for some stories than others and needed that political focus the 5YG gave him. He’s a better supporting character with some major roles when needed as opposed to just having minor (and Lyle-like) cameo role just to make up the numbers.

Huey, I read all of your well-reasoned post and generally agree with every point and comparison you made. I really don't expect Lyle to be infallible at all. In fact, I welcome him and other Legionnaires to be humanized and show imperfections. I guess it just sticks in my craw because this was Lyle's final and (arguably because it features his death) most significant appearance. Most likely, this is the story featuring Lyle Norg Pre-Zero Hour that most Legion fans will remember the most. And in that story, he shirks his duty!

True, fans may remember most about the story his heroism and selflessness against Validus, but maybe others will read or re-read it and wonder if maybe he had it coming because he was shown not to be as dedicated to the job as his peers! I don't feel that's Lyle's legacy at all, and anyone looking for it should look at his role during his leadership term.

Basically, I'm all for characterization and especially flaws being explored, but I'd rather it not undermine a great character in the moment he'll ultimately be remembered for most.

Oddly enough, I still overall like the story!

Lardy,
I appreciate your perspective. However, I can't argue about Lyle's legacy or how later fans might perceive him. I'm not terribly bothered if they think less of the character because of this story. People will always draw upon their own associations and first impressions, regardless of what they happen to be. Some may amend their perceptions later on; others won't.

One of the reasons I like this depiction of Lyle is because I have made mistakes that now make me wince and which probably put me in a bad light with certain people. However, I can't afford to worry about what others think about me; I can only do what I perceive to be right in any given situation and try to make amends when I'm wrong. This is pretty much what Lyle does here, and that makes him easy for me to relate to.

Where it all went wrong for the Legion:-

"Hey Ferro Lad! Quit telepathically texting your twin and fight the Sun-Eater..ah, never mind, there goes Earth."

"Hey Eltro. Quit arguing with your other personality and come and help with ...ah heck..Mordru wins."

Thanks for all the comments on Jacques, guys. I think they confirm my suspicion that he just doesn't appear on anyone's "best of" lists, including my own, but rarely on "worst" lists either. I think that most agree that he's a good legacy character and someone who found some niches to enrich the overall Legion tapestry.

I really wish that his teleportation power had been kept and developed instead of just being discarded, though. It's intriguing to me for the weaker one-power Legionnaires to develop permutations that expand what they can do. It's disappointing, especially since Lyle himself was shown to be developing the ability to see into what he didn't realize was the afterlife. It's not that I think all of the "weak" powers should be expanded, but there's nothing inherently wrong with one or two being deepened.

I've always thought that the Invisible Kids' powers have been marginalized, anyway. It's always seemed too easy for any of them to be detected while invisible. Heat signatures, movement detectors, etc. I think they would be pretty formidable if their power made them completely undetectable, even from telepathy. If that seemingly makes them too powerful, you could write situations where it's detrimental--stuck in stealth mode, knocked unconscious, etc. But if written that way, it could be quite a super power.

I know you said that you don't think that all powers should be expanded,. I think this was one of those times. I remember thinking that having set up the power as a subplot, it was an interesting switch to have Jacques decide that he no longer wanted it. It was a nice switch from the power creep that's seen so often. I's one of those decisions that sets Jacques apart form other super characters.

I think Brainy might have tried and failed to increase Dawny's tracking range around that time too.

I can't disagree with you there. Certainly, Paul spun that resolution in a way that made Jacques look good as a character, but he could just as easily had done so by having Jacques be determined to develop and control the power to benefit the Legion and by extension those they serve. It was certainly a unique power (pre-Gates/pre-Zero Hour), so you could argue Paul took the easy way out. I also doubt this was the exact resolution that was conceived for the subplot, just as I doubt the Lyle/demon outcome was always supposed to be that way.

Wow, there's been a lot of great commentary already for this Archive Reread! Love to see that! I had meant to reply earlier but couldn't put aside the time and then the thread started to get away from me. But a few comments in brief:

- responding to HWW's initial reply to my comments, I can certainly see where his opinion differs from mine when it comes to the romance portion of the story. I guess at the end of the day I just don't believe the romance. I feel I'm being told about it, but because Myla comes out of left field and because the ghost plot feels like a way to shoehorn a happy ending into a death sequence, I'm not able to buy into it. (And I admit that there are many times a decade earlier where I was able to easily get past those feelings and "buy into" such things during the Silver Age; likely this contradiction more to do with the reader than anything).

- another comment by HWW is that one could read into Lyle simply growing tired of being a Legionnaire and wanting to move on. I think he's right on the money here, and I got the same feeling when he mentioned marrying Myla, as that would mean mandatory retirement. But I also can understand those feelings well and think most of us have felt that way in life. Whether it's a job (probably the most common) or a living situation (roommate, etc) or even something as simple as a "social era" of your life like high school, college or the "going out to the bar and drinking with your friends all weekend" phase of your early 20's, there sometimes comes a point where you're only doing it out of habit, and the thrill and excitement have left you. You still enjoy everyone and don't dislike it; you simply are ready for something else. I think it isn't a stretch at all to think someone like Lyle would feel that at this point in LSH history after two of his longtime friends just got married and settled down.

- lastly, there's a lot of good conversation about Jacques. I tend to have similar feelings to Lardy: IK II was never in my top 5 favorite Legionnaires but I liked him immensely and felt he was a stalwart Legionnaire during one of the franchises best eras. He became a Legionnaire I wanted on the roster henceforth. Regardless of where the accent came from or why the streak was in his hair, he had a lot of unique qualities; for a reader who only discovered him long after he was written out of the series, I could care less about those things and simply knew they I liked him. Out of all of Legion history, he was probably the best "new member / Pov character" of all.

Legion #294 - "Gah! Put Some Pants On! I'm Too Offended to Stay in your Galaxy >BOOM!<" - Darkseid

SUPERBOY AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES 204

I personally consider 204-209 to be a rather blah string of issues. Perhaps the re-read will change my mind about some of them, but it didn't change my mind about 204. I don't think either of the stories are very good, and even Grell's art isn't up to the standards he established with 203. The portrayal of humans in the 75th Century is, in my opinion, boringly written and laughably illustrated -- I assume that Anti-Lad and his father were supposed to look like their brains had expanded, but they actually look like they have giant phalluses growing out of their bald heads! (Apparently, even in the far future, men still think with their genitals.) That makes it hard for me to take the story seriously, and since I don't like most of the Adventure-era costumes, there's no thrill in seeing Grell draw some of the Legionnaires in their old costumes.

The back-up story is better drawn, but even more badly written, I think, because it puts my beloved Brainy in a really bad light, what with his building a Supergirl robot during his blackouts. Creepy is the word for it.

Overall, a very weak issue and, in my opinion, all-too-typical of the next twenty or so issues, except for a few good Shooter stories here and there.

Superboy & the LSH #204: Part 1

Before we begin, a quick memory from the distant past: way back in 1999 on the DCMB's, in the pre-LMB days of the LMB when we were all starting to meet each other, I remember a thread about "most obscure Legionnaires". There were lots of posts about Celeste and Devlin, or Catspaw and Computo, and then oh yes, the Subs were honorary members too don't forget! And of course, the members who joined during the 5 year gap, the ultimate obscure members of all! As a Legion fan whose preboot reading still had major holes in it, I was very intrigued! And then came a post from none other than Rhino, who said "but let's not forget the most obscure of them all--when Anti-Lad was listed on the roster in Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes #204! Now *that* sounded interesting!

For a long while I was dying to find the issue and see this Anti-Lad for myself. And when I finally did...I was totally disappointed to see a goofy looking guy with a penis for a head! Bloody effing liberty!

Fast forward another 13 years or so and here I am able to take the story for what it is, without any preconceived ideas. And you know, I enjoyed the hell out of it! It's a very well plotted story, and in classic Cary Bates style--full of clever twists and turns in a compacted set of pages. It also succeeds in two other ways: Anti-Lad, for all his lack of detailed personality is quite likable and his adventure also allows us to explore the rich history of the Legion's early days, a time period readers haven't seen in a long time.

Speaking of which, I like how this story cements some of LSH chronology even further by showing Tinya, Cham, Gim and Brainy present at the time of Superboy's induction. Most of that was already established, but repeat references make it canon.

Meanwhile, back to Bates' story: I highly enjoyed the ruse Anti-Lad pulls to correct the historical mistake, and think it was very cleverly and enjoyably pulled off. This is also heightened by the great narrative trick that the LSH never knows what's happened...but the readers do.

Grell has taken over for Cockrum, and the art continues to be the major focus of the era. But this story more than any other so far showcases writer Cary Bates as the star.

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Superboy & the LSH #204: Part 2

The second part of #204 is basically the opposite of the first. I'm not a fan of this story at all, and think it's partially to blame for all the subsequent "Brainy has lost it" stories that will come in future years, which has become an annoying trope in comics (re: genius has mental breakdown). I can understand the pressure causing Legionnaires to act erratically, but building a robot duplicate of the woman you love in your sleep? Uh, no.

The positives of this story are (A) the countless joked we've gotten on LW about Supergirl robots and (B) the incredible Grell art. Where Cary Bates' story shits the bed, Grell's artwork is superb and his depictions of Supergirl and Saturn Girl are mesmerizingly beautiful. His Brainy is also very leading mannish, and the final panel of their (real) shared kiss is incredibly striking and romantic.

We also get the aforementioned (by HWW) panel of Supergirl officially leaving the roster; now I know why I forgot as I usually purposely forget about this story. While this definitely fits into the "changing the roster" trend of the newer, fresher Legion, it feels a bit more like tying up a long standing loose end.

All in all, I never liked this story but it especially has rubbed me the wrong way on this reread. Maybe it's all the similar Marvel stories using Hank, Reed, Tony, etc that have just made me outright hate such stories.

I fail to see how he's the least bit likable. What exactly do you like about him, Cobie?



Now here we're in total agreement. Cheers, Cobie.

204/Anti-Lad

I fluctuate between finding the story blah (Fanfie's perspective) and enjoying it (Cobie's). It is certainly a clever little ditty, with all of Bates's cheekiness in full force. In his narration (and through Anti-Lad's mouth), he addresses the reader directly, letting us in on a secret not even the Legionnaires themselves know. This must rank up there with the "Paul is dead" mystery that the Beatles oh-so-cleverly let only their faithful fans know about through clues on their album covers and in their lyrics--or so some fans wanted to believe. Who doesn't like a secret story that only you, the reader, know?

The story is also well executed; it does what it sets out to do, and Anti-Lad demonstrates his resourcefulness by setting history right.

I have two standout memories from reading this story as a child. One is that it was supposed to be a treat to see the old Adventure-era costumes again, but I felt underwhelmed by the depiction. This is clearly a '70s version of the '60s Legion, and it misses the story telling sensibilities of the Siegel and Hamilton eras: the wonderful imagination and far-out planets and aliens. All of this is sacrificed for a straight action story, something the Legion didn't do much of at the time.

The other memory is that, for many years afterwards, I wished Anti-Lad had been more clever than to claim he was from a planet with a super-bright sun. Sure, such cleverness would have defeated his purpose as he wanted to be caught, but I still regretted that he had been found out so easily. I suppose I found him likable, like Cobie, and so I wanted him to stick around.

Reading the story now, I wish there was more to it than a simple gimmick of a Legionnaire nobody remembered. Once you learn the mystery, that's all there is to it. It teaches us nothing new about the human condition or the Legionnaires. It's the literary equivalent of a magic trick.

I'm also not sure why it was necessary for Anti-Lad to go through the whole charade. If all he needed to do was blank out the Legionnaires' memories and make them want to give Superboy another chance, couldn't he have done that in some other way? Personally, I think he just wanted to interact with his ancient idols. Nothing wrong with that. I once wrote a story in which a time traveler joins the early Beatles (and unwittingly changes history)!

Be back in a bit to discuss "Brainiac 5's Secret Weakness."

204/Secret Weakness

If viewed through the modern lens of adult perspective and "darker" comic book story lines, "Brainiac 5's Secret Weakness" does indeed appear creepy. However, I don't think that was the intention at the time, and that's not how I've ever read the story.

I think it is quite sweet that Brainy pines for Kara, and that--perhaps because of his own shyness (a trait he may have had in common with Lyle)--he never fully expressed this love. Ironically, Kara felt the same way--as shown in Adventure 368 and elsewhere--so they both appear to be very shy people who never quite knew how to connect with each other. I've been there and done that.

As for Brainy building a Kara robot in his sleep, why not? There are all sorts of ways a 12th level intelligence could be played in comics. During the reboot, it was suggested that Brainy had a multi-track mind that could do several different things at once (which truly would be a super-power since it's well known that human brains cannot multitask). If that's the case, it seems feasible that one of his "tracks" might operate independently of the rest while he was asleep, acting out his dreams and deepest wishes. My only real problem with this idea is that it was never explored in other stories. Who knows how many times Brainy tinkered away in the lab without knowing it? Perhaps Coluans have to take some kind of medication to prevent this from happening. The condition could be similar that of Vulcans, who lose control of logic and become emotional as they near the end of their lives.

My only real complaint with this story is the timing of Kara's return, which just happens to coincide with Brainy's vacation and allows her to pull off a convenient rescue. Of course, the story wouldn't work so well if she didn't return at that moment.

Two things make this story stand out to me. One is the revelation that, even though Kara hadn't visited the Legion in several years, she was still on the active roster. Apparently, the Legion didn't have the heart to expel her, as any organization would for someone who just stopped showing up.

The second is the last panel of Brainy and Kara kissing, which is bittersweet, especially in the hindsight of knowing this would be the last time they would meet for many years. In spite of Kara's promise that she would one day return, it would not be for quite some time. But at least these two shy people got to express their true feelings for each other.

I wish we could all be so fortunate.

And every time anyone agrees with Lardy, Morgan Freeman grows an extra freckle!

That's exactly how I felt. The old costumes were jarring rather than pleasurable in this context.



I feel that way about a lot of 70s Legion stories, in particular many of the ones written by Bates.

Interesting perspective, He Who. It doesn't change my opinion of the story, but I think your insights into Brainy and Kara and your placing of the story in its proper historical context are sound.

In some ways, I'm envious of your generation, He Who, as yours was the last to come of age before superhero comics entered the Dark Age. I can't speak for Cobie, but he and I are of the same generation, and I feel the oppressive wave of dark superheroes had far-reaching effects for everyone born between roughly 1972 and 1982. In my personal case, I tend to have knee-jerk reactions of seeing the sordid side to superheroes.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. I had the benefit of reading vast amounts of Silver Age comics before I was engrossed with (then) modern "Dark Age" sensibilities, so in that regard, I have a good appreciation for earlier eras. But at the end of the day, like Fanfie, I come from an era where the "dark age mentality" was so prevalent, and has cycled back through again and again, that it's very difficult to push that colored perspective out of mind when I read comics. Sometimes I think I'm able to, and sometimes I just can't.

Regarding the likability of Anti-Lad, I guess its hard to pin down now that I don't have the issue in front of me anymore. Overall, I just liked his confidence and his sense of trying to do the right thing for his idols, especially that he wasn't going to wait around and do it himself. He also has a healthy respect and awe of the Legion which I appreciate, having that myself. If he had a better visual, he might have caused more readers to want to see more of him.