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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857313 06/29/15 09:05 AM
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Anderson also drew one of the most iconic DC superhero covers of all time: the first JLA/JSA team-up.

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
I also note there is nothing to say that guy with Jo was his Dad. For all we know that’s his parole officer or old drug dealer mentor who softened over time.


LOL rotflmao

Very true, Cobie, very true.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857358 06/29/15 02:24 PM
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Silverale daddy?


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857492 06/30/15 03:09 PM
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SUPERBOY 188

Random MST3K reference:

"Because of those CRYSTALS!" mad wink

There really isn't a lot to say about the second Cockrum/Bates collaboration, because the pros and cons are basically the same: the art is great, but the story isn't much. Chameleon Boy accidentally looks at some evil crystals cooked up by Mordru which have to power to instill hatred of Superboy. Cham torments Superboy with little pieces of Kryptonite until Superboy uses super-suction to get them off his chest (but wouldn't that hurt Superboy even more??) confused and then spits them far away with super-breath. Superboy cures Cham by burying him alive for 60 seconds, cause, y'know, Mordru. Oh, and a few other Legionnaires appear, but they're required by the plot to act stupid. Thank the Gods that the next story is a reasonable improvement. Until then...


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857505 06/30/15 04:40 PM
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Yeah, there's a lot of stupidity going on "Curse of the Blood Crystals." It seems irresponsible for Superboy to just throw the crystals into space when he knows by now that any number of villains or aliens could find it. It's stupid of LL and Brainy to just leave "Cham" back in the 20th century without checking on him further. And it's mighty convenient that burying Cham alive for a minute undoes the magic.

Still, I do think this story is a step up from most recent ones. It shows Bates' knack for plotting and playing tricky with the reader. He makes good use of Cham, who impersonates first Ultra Boy and then Superboy, without revealing what has happened until the story demands it. Earlier writers would have revealed the impersonations at the onset, ruining the tension. (I'm thinking of Lu being shown splitting into three just before Computo disintegrates one of her.)

Even though LL, Brainy, and UB serve the needs of the plot, they were well utilized, except in the instance above. A story as short as this demands a tight plot and "supporting characters" who are there only to further the needs of the story. (There is also a cameo from Phantom Girl, who apparently is wearing civvies or perhaps a fan-designed costume.)

It was also nice to see the time cube again. It was used in Mordru's introduction back in Adv. 369.

I also like it that the story begins in media res, at the end of an otherwise unexplained battle between Superboy and Mordru. Bates will return to this story-telling device with Timber Wolf's supposed death in 197. It was an effective way of hinting at "untold" stories and rounding out the Legion's world by suggesting they were involved in other cases we're not shown. This device also stoked the imaginations of fans and their yearnings for more.

The art is still an improvement over what we have been getting, but it's rough in a few places. The close-up of Ultra Boy on p. 5, for example, looks like he's straining to think (perhaps he hasn't recovered from the konk on the head). Other close-ups, such as Superboy on p. 7 and Cham on p. 8, look forced.

However, there are a few gorgeous shots, such as the space scenes, the landing pad on p. 4, and Superboy, LL, and Brainy flying past the clock on p. 7. Cockrum seems to have the action scenes down pat but was still working on faces.

"Curse" won't win any awards for Best Legion Story of the Year, but it does show that Bates and Cockrum understood the Legion's world and had plenty of blocks to build upon.




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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857506 06/30/15 04:50 PM
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I think you've certainly provided some food for thought, He Who.

But what about Superboy putting Kryptonite in his mouth? I found that even more ridiculous than Tenzil "eating" a death-ray in the previous story.

Good point mentioning the Cockrum/Bates Timber Wolf story in 197, and Bates' use of the in media res device in both stories. That device provides plenty of potential material for fanfic writers like myself.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857508 06/30/15 04:54 PM
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Yes, the "sucking kryptonite" bit was dumb, too. If Supes could do that all along, then he has no excuse for succumbing to green k, ever, unless someone throws a green k boulder at him.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857509 06/30/15 05:00 PM
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There's a wonderful scene in an early 1970s Superman story where all kryptonite is rendered inert and Superman gleefully eats a piece of kryptonite.

Shame it didn't last... sigh


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Retroboot (Earth-7.5) Arc 1 (COMPLETED)

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857566 07/01/15 09:56 AM
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As you’ve both pointed out, and as we probably all expected, #188 continues the trend of phenomenal art mixed with a story that is chalk-full of writing problems.

The good: the art is just amazing. We see some deep space exploration, some really nifty usage of Cham’s powers, and see Dave draw Superboy in a way that evokes just raw power.

Bates’ writing can be lumped under “the bad”, but I do have to agree with HWW that this is a slight step in the right direction. The Blood Crystals aren't a terrible idea in and of themselves but here they are executed poorly. Meanwhile, Cham is used to good effect in places by being clever and using his powers well. None of these things make a good story but they are signs that things are improving.

One thing that always stuck out at me is the random Mordru appearance at the beginning. We never had this issue (and still don’t) so I didn’t see it until I bought the Archive a few years back and found myself really shocked by it. Bates was clearly trying to dig deep into the Legion’s rogues gallery (see the Fatal Five next issue), but this brief, random appearance does more harm to Mordru than good. Mordru is simply above a story like this IMO. And we already have a major untold Mordru story with his first battle with the Legion!

Another oddball thing is that by now the LSH Leader Elections have gotten totally screwed up. Ever since Jo’s last stint as leader at the tail end of Adventure, there has been a slew of possible leaders and deputy leaders, and here they mention the position rotating every month. Forgetting for a second that such a thing NEVER WORKS in reality, the leadership confusion creates a sense that there is confusion going on in both the Legion and in editorial, which doesn’t lend itself to a feeling of world-building. I don’t think I ever understood who was leader during these issues until I joined Legion World in 2003 and Lightning Lad had a nice little thread in Encyclopedia Galactica to explain it.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857576 07/01/15 11:31 AM
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It's a short run of what I call, "loyalty reads."

Stories aside, it's a bit surprising how much of Bate's work became lore later used. There were some interesting bits. I haven't decided if the stories are not interesting or just not executed well.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857577 07/01/15 11:34 AM
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Without re-reading it, I seem to remember liking the implication that there's a whole series of untold Mordru vs. Superboy stories set in twentieth century Smallville, presumably after Mordru escapes having been buried in Smallville in the Adventure two-parter.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #857598 07/01/15 01:29 PM
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Superboy 188

I preferred Mordru as the scourge of another galaxy. A being so terrible the Legion were right to be fearful of him. Every time he pops up to be easily imprisoned lessens him.

Here, he’s used as the villain behind the macguffin. Blood red crystals introduced in the 20th century so they can appear for the Legion 1000 years later. It’s a device that would be used later by Morrison in DC 1 million.

The art started off as fair in the 20th century segment, improves as the legion research satellite part goes on. But it really clicks with Jo’s return to Legion HQ. The backgrounds and technology are still my favourite part.

Reep, who couldn’t get on Legion leave presumably, had to knock out Jo to go visit the 20th century. I didn’t mind him pulling the second impersonation. That’s a logical extension of the first, and we get a sort of evil looking Superboy to tip us off (although we don’t know how Reep knows about the crystals background). The Chameleon Boy sarcophagus lid is a bit more baffling.

The same logic applies throughout. Cham’s impersonations worked once, so why not twice? Superboy picks up on Cham’s elephant trick which worked once. He also picks up on a solution to Cham’s problem from it working once on the villain behind the crystals in the first place.

So, it’s tidily done, even if very convenient in places. In terms of characterisation it’s a bit of a reminder of earlier Legion tales. A good example of this is Brainy’s stark announcement that Cham may have to be expelled from the group. We get other moments such as Cham declaring he’d like to explore once day and Tinya being sent to nurse Jo on the satellite.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Cobalt Kid #857631 07/01/15 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid

Bates was clearly trying to dig deep into the Legion’s rogues gallery (see the Fatal Five next issue), but this brief, random appearance does more harm to Mordru than good. Mordru is simply above a story like this IMO.


I agree. In Adv. 369-370, Mordru was a terrifying menace--so terrifying that the Legion's two mightiest members had to flee into the past to escape him.

Here he goes back in time and uses the blood crystals for no other reason than to turn Superboy into an outcast. While this theme fits into the more juvenile approach of the stories, it certainly makes Mordru seem petty and a pushover since Superboy defeats him single-handedly.

Quote
Another oddball thing is that by now the LSH Leader Elections have gotten totally screwed up. Ever since Jo’s last stint as leader at the tail end of Adventure, there has been a slew of possible leaders and deputy leaders, and here they mention the position rotating every month.


I imagine this bit was necessitated by the idea that the stakes had to be raised. Brainy points out that as "acting leader" he may have to expel Chameleon Boy, which makes us care just a little bit about this guy with the pointy ears and antennae who, through no fault of his own, has become the bad guy.

(Of course, the Legionnaires once again turn on each other at the drop of a hat. Who would want to belong to such a club?)

It also occurs to me that since the Legion was appearing so infrequently in those days, rotating leaders may not have been confusing to readers. If anything, it gives a sense that some time has passed since their last appearance.

In The Legion Sourcebook, Levitz addressed this confusion by stating that the Legion experimented with six-month leadership terms for a couple of years, which accounts for UB, Val, Mon-El, and UB again during the late Adventure, Action, and Superboy runs. Only when Mon was elected again in 190 was the term restored to a full year.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858572 07/07/15 04:33 PM
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SUPERBOY 190

Just as the Legion is holding leader elections, the two candidates, Saturn Girl and Mon-El, are whisked away to a barren planetoid by Validus and Tharok. The latter has trained the former to kill whoever is the Legion leader, so as to weaken the team enough for a final defeat. The Legionnaires turn the tables on the villains in a way which once again requires Tharok's super-intellect to lapse, but even so, this is the first Cockrum/Bates collaboration that I find halfway satisfying. Cockrum finally gets to stretch his abilities at staging action, and he's very good at it indeed. Anderson's inks had been a bit overdone last time around, to the detriment of the close-ups. Here, the faces are much better, especially the recovering Saturn Girl and the overstressed Mon-El, both on Page 8. Compared to the stories to come a few issues from now, this is strictly meat-and-potatoes fare rather than fine dining, but it's still a step ahead.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858597 07/07/15 06:51 PM
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"Murder the Leader" is my favorite of the pre-197 Superboy offerings. Of course, it is mainly a Mon-El solo story--Saturn Girl doesn't do much except get blasted and play dead. Other Legionnaires appear but are not even named. If I had picked up this issue as my first exposure to the Legion, I would have thought all the others were just throwaway characters who spend their time arguing with each other.

Still, it is a complete story with a satisfying ending. Sure, Tharok is very gullible, but given how stupid real criminals sometimes are, I can buy Tharok's ego being a blind spot in his intellect. The damage done by Validus's blast will be featured in two forthcoming stories (198 and 203), creating a nice bit of continuity.

I also like Mon-El's character arc. Some fans have objected to the lack of self-confidence he displays at the beginning of the story, but it feels real to me. Just because Mon is the mightiest member and has been leader before doesn't mean he wouldn't be plagued by self-doubts. And I reject the notion that such loss of confidence was all the product of Eltro's personality being infused into Mon's own back in Action 384. It's refreshing to see a hero express the real doubts anyone would have.

Anyway, Mon regains his confidence by outwitting Tharok. This works for me as a wonderful transforming moment for Mon.

The faces are indeed much better this time--more nuanced and natural. Some standout shots for me are Mon on page 2, panel 4 (you can see it pains him to admit his lack of self-confidence); Imra on page 4, panel 2; the two images Fanfie mentions on page 8; and Imra's gleeful smile in the last panel of the story.

The action scenes are fluid and exciting, as well.

The only thing I don't like about the art (other than Shady being depicted as Caucasian) is Tharok's right eye being drawn as a black orb. To me, he's even more scary when we see how human his right side is.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858605 07/07/15 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Saturn Girl doesn't do much except get blasted and play dead.


I thought she was holding back so that Mon-El could regain his confidence? Besides, she managed to override Tharok's training and make Validus tone down his blast.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Shady being depicted as Caucasian


Where does this happen? Is there a miscoloring in the original issue? I only have the Archives reprint. If you're referring to the way Cockrum draws her face, I think she looks about as exotic and ambiguous as he could manage, given that she only has two panels and neither is a close up.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858629 07/07/15 08:24 PM
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True: Imra does do a couple of really subtle things here.

Yes, in the original issue, Shady has white skin--except, inexplicably, her legs and, in one panel, her hands.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858645 07/08/15 02:29 AM
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This story could be rewritten today so much better. I like the premise of Mon-el doubting himself and finding his confidence. It's also interesting that Mon appeals to Tharok's lust for power and Tharok falls for it. In this tale, that happens too quickly, but it's a trope that's been used to good effect in other stories which allow more time for the con to develop.

On reflection, some of the things I found illogical could indeed be the result of Mon-el's confidence problem. Why does he assume that Imra sacrificed herself? Maybe she was just trying to get out of the way and wasn't quick enough. Couldn't his super-hearing detect her breathing and heartbeat? Would he really be stopped by energy spheres? If I think of these in terms of him panicking, they make more sense. The whole Eltro Gand thing, I agree, was unnecessary to explain his lack of confidence; if one needs an external source, 1000 years in the Zone would be enough to undermine someone's equanimity.

As we learned later, Validus "roaming harmlessly" is still a menace - unpredictable, dangerous. He would later kill Invisible Kid.

I notice that both Shady and Karate Kid adopt the classic Roman orator pose, hand in the air. Legion Debate Team?


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
He Who Wanders #858653 07/08/15 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders


Yes, in the original issue, Shady has white skin--except, inexplicably, her legs and, in one panel, her hands.


Another example of Murray Boltinoff's conscientious attention to continuity details. smirk

Last edited by the Hermit; 07/08/15 04:23 AM.

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fat Cramer #858773 07/08/15 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer

As we learned later, Validus "roaming harmlessly" is still a menace - unpredictable, dangerous. He would later kill Invisible Kid.



Validus was being controlled by a component of Tharok's brain when he killed Invisible Kid. A roaming Validus may still be a menace, but not (apparently) homicidal.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
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FC, I think you make a good point -- "Murder the Leader" could have been a better story if it had had more pages, like if it had been a whole issue instead of a backup.

Hermit, LOL lol


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
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"Murder the Leader" is the first Legion story I can remember reading (Kind of. I couldn't really read more than a few words at that time.) I loved the Cockrum/Anderson art!


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858825 07/09/15 06:04 AM
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Superboy #190

A few things stand out immediately in this story.

Design wise, there is a really terrific layout on the opening splash. From the gold plated "a new tale of the LSH" to the narration caps thumbs pointing to the next to the "follow" crossed out with "murder" above it. This showcases Cockrum's dynamic approach to comics, already establishing him as wholly unique this early in his career.

In fact, at the risk that this is going to get repetitive as we review this archive, all I can say is: Stunning art. Dynamic action, glamorous Imra, handsome leading man, fearsome villains. The panels with the spheres on page 7 are just popping with that added element. Stunning. Simply stunning.

At first story is fairly routine...but that's okay. If it stayed on track it would have been a sufficient starting point for Dave's art in limited space. But the end is too silver-agey with the trickery that supposed-genius Tharok easily falls for, and it doesn't fit this era.

Of note, as HWW mentioned pages earlier, is the LSH Leadership stabilized here. I especially love seeing Gim supporting Imra--it just feels right.

Mon's doubting himself is something I usually don't like. Yet it's not to unrealistic. Doesn't everyone have doubts, including Superman and even Batman? The key is he turns it around quickly and takes care of the problem. As we've talked about, this story will be one of many in which Mon plays this role which will give him an odd longterm characterization that I don't love. Yet taken on its own, I don't see any problem with the concept.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858880 07/09/15 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
I especially love seeing Gim supporting Imra--it just feels right.


Agreed 100%, Cobie. And it pays dividends way down the line during the Levitz/LaRocque Universo Project arc, where Imra turns to Gim's mother for help.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
Fanfic Lady #858942 07/10/15 04:24 AM
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Superboy 190

Covered legs are in this month, showing that even weather controlled Metropolis gets cold snaps. I think it’s an improvement on Dreamy’s usual bathing suit. Imra is made from sterner stuff and is determined to wear that pink bikini. She’s also determined to become leader and she’s positively glaring at Mon-El for daring to challenger her for the role.

Shadow Lass is wearing white make up this issue. I had thought it was just that statue from Adventure with the payoff in Legion #300. The colouring goes askew in page two, as she’s now in green. It’s a nice look and an indication of what it would look like if the Emerald Empress ever joined (or a different look for Vi or Rain Girl joining briefly between issues).

The future is democratic! But only if you access to the weird technology that the team insist on inventing every time there’s an election. It’s register bracelets this time. I’m a little unnerved at the two candidates sitting back to back on electric chairs.

Mon-El is planning on declining whether he wins or not. There’s a strong hint regarding his mental frailty that will be used for years to come.

Both candidates are teleported away. I’m thinking it’s Prof Sayar’s warp transport from an earlier issue. They land on a planetoid right out of Aliens. But it’s just an excuse for an arena contest against two of the fatal five. In my fan-brain, Tharok has pinched the warp transport tech.

Tharok has rarely looked creepier. His human eye is completely black. That human/ robot split isn’t 50%. His gun looks powerful and his robotic limbs deliberately non-human.

It’s always a little odd to see Lyle in re-reads. He was long gone by the time I started reading the Legion. He’s in the first couple of pages here, and it’s as if he’s already haunting the pages. The reason I mention this is that it’s particularly chilling to see the way in which Validus grasps Mon-El later in the issue. “And I also forgot how quick he is! A fatal mistake for me!” This is from the mightiest Legionnaire.

Tharok’s plan to kill any leader of the Legion is simple. They are still powerful enough that the threat has real meaning. It would be used decades later by Mark Millar in the Authority. Having sent one dictator to his death, they threatened the same fate to any other that didn’t treat their people fairly.

Mon-El goes through the ringer, and panic almost overwhelms him. It’s a very human take on him. Or it’s Eltro Gand as would later be revealed by TMK. Seeing him using all of his powers to get free is an excellent panel (as was Imra’s pose earlier). It shows just how unstoppable he can be.

But Mon-El is no Validus. Tharok should realise that Validus would win and see through Mon-Els rather obvious gambit. But he falls for it, effectively says “Koraht”, and has Validus turn on him.

Tharok’s twisted metal half is another excellent touch. As I wonder why the Legion just let The Incredible Sulk of Validus just wander off, I note that both Val and Tharok have the same feet. Who is influencing whom?

In summary, it’s a pretty simple story. But it’s one that resonates more because of what would happen later; the fate of Lyle; Mon-El’s issues despite being so powerful and Imra in mental contact with Validus.

Although easily tricked, both Fatal Five members looked scary enough to continue to be a big threat. There was also a nice thrill to think of Tharok leading the Legion. Just what would that look like? A nice reminder of that spate of villain infiltration issues back in Adventure and Universo trying for membership.

There are a number of nice art flourishes. “The End” in the Legion L to the innovative split speech bubble on the first page. It’s Cockrum’s work that makes the story stand on its own.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE COCKRUM)
thoth lad #859171 07/11/15 08:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by thoth lad

The future is democratic! But only if you access to the weird technology that the team insist on inventing every time there’s an election. It’s register bracelets this time.


Given how fast technology changes today, this is oddly prophetic.

Quote
I’m a little unnerved at the two candidates sitting back to back on electric chairs.


That did seem a little strange, as did their hostile expressions toward each other. I can only assume the Legion was modeling ancient political campaigns of the first millennium for a class history project. (They were still teenagers and in school, after all.)


Quote


It’s always a little odd to see Lyle in re-reads. He was long gone by the time I started reading the Legion. He’s in the first couple of pages here, and it’s as if he’s already haunting the pages. The reason I mention this is that it’s particularly chilling to see the way in which Validus grasps Mon-El later in the issue. “And I also forgot how quick he is! A fatal mistake for me!” This is from the mightiest Legionnaire.


Interesting observation.

For me, Lyle's appearances are a reminder that he was once a major, long-term Legionnaire. His absences left a hole in the team, as any death would.

But you're right: It's an eerie piece of foreshadowing that Validus grabs Mon in the same manner that he later grabbed--and killed--Lyle.


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