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Re: Reboot was right
#85432 07/19/05 04:44 PM
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The new Legion series thru the first seven issues has been like a big Penguin ... it looks pretty and you want it to fly, but it doesn't look like it will ever get off the ground.

The DC books that are currently outselling the Legion (and there are a few of them) are faster paced and each have a story satisfyingly contained within the issue. The extra pages in Legion should have allowed much more development than what we've seen so far. The background stories of Tinya, Triad, and introduction of Projectra and T-Wolf was too much, too soon and has dragged down the momentum. Aside from the side trips to Lallor, the outer rim, and last issue to Colu, the majority of the stories (200+ pages) have been focused around Legion HQ or in flashback origins. Let's see the universe and in real time!


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Re: Reboot was right
#85433 07/19/05 05:13 PM
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I loved the DnA stuff (of course, I'm biased), from Legion of the Damned on through at least Legion 24, and I'm glad to see others enjoyed it as well. But I always thought they were working under the handicap of a half-hearted reboot, that in many ways was neither here nor there. The reboot didn't get as clean of a start as they deserved (renumbering so new readers could jump on), and I don't think any of the early reboot stuff lived up to the promise of the zero issues.

The Legion had a very proud and distinguished 25 year history, until Byrne, Carlin, et. all felt the need not only to reboot Superman, but jack with Superboy, undermining everything. They didn't even allow them to keep the pocket universe. It seems from that point, we had 20 YEARS of attempted patches, fixes, apologies, retcons, and whatnot. No wonder the Legion lost so much ground -- it was impossible for them to ever gain momentum because they were always trying to better fix or replace all they had lost. Even the reboot seemed (to me) unable to get completely out from under the shadow of trying to fix things.

The threeboot, to me, seeems finally like a real fresh start (assuming Infinite Crisis doesn't re-mire it in a bunch of new nonsense). I love it, I love the pace, and I am in no hurry to get anywhere...I'm just enjoing the new universe and rediscovering the characters.

Re: Reboot was right
#85434 07/19/05 05:57 PM
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I think say, after Dark Circle rising, reboot was great.

I think after that it lost editorial focus. DnA came along and stirred things up. Great. But again, lost focus.

Maybe thats what the Legion needs - a visionary.

That said, great to see the Superboy costume with the L logo.

Re: Reboot was right
#85435 07/19/05 06:58 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Tromium:
I enjoyed the first 7 issues of DnA's Legion relaunch waaaay more than the first 7 issues of WaK's reboot.

Waid seems to have forgotten that scintillating action, adventure and romance was the bedrock of the Legion's historical success. The travesty that was the TMK era is proof enough that socio-political themes do not constitute the right formula for this book. I really think they've started off on the left foot, especially with adults vs. kids premise. The idea of a Legion civil war is fine and dandy, but it should have been wrapped up in six issues rather than becoming one of the central threads of the series. I keep wondering when the "real" Legion stories will begin.

That said, it was Dan Didio's mandate to Waid to re-reboot the franchise, so there was probably *zero* chance of avoiding radical change, particularly in light of the universe-altering events to be wrought by Infinite Crisis. If it hadn't been rebooted by WaK, TPTB would have handed the job to another team. Judging by her tepid and pointless FNBR arc last year, a revamp done by Simone (who was briefly slated as writer before Waid stepped back in) could very well have sunk the ship. At least Waid is keeping it afloat.
You got it Trom. As I've stated I'm a fan. I've accepted this current Legion. But starting on the wrong foot as you've said nails it on the head. Don't think the pace or kids vs. adults thing was the wisest decision.

The pace does remind me of the TMK run and that is a good thing in my eyes. It's a good story being slowy woven but my favorite issue is the Terror Firma issue. And the cover for #11. As you say needs a bit more action, romance, and adventure.

And I think they will get there. For all we know the pace may be slow because of that darn Infinity Crisis! Damn 21st century still affecting teh superior Legion of Super Heroes! Eat it Didio! wink

Re: Reboot was right
#85436 07/20/05 08:07 AM
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I find the comparison of the first seven issues of this run to DnA's first seven issues to be somewhat problematic. Their first two stories, "Legon of the Damned" and "Widening Rifts" were all about deconstructing an existing Legion status quo, while Waid's have been about setting up a new status quo. It's not an easy comparison to make. Similarly, comparing Waid's first seven issues to "Legion Lost" seems problematic as well, since the latter was a series with a set number of issues, which partially masked the fact that it was relatively slow-paced and dwelt too much on items irrelevant to the main storyline.

If you compare Waid's new series to the early issues of the Legion, in which DnA are building up their own new status quo, however, I believe Waid blows DnA out of the water. Just flipping through #7, I find it incredibly cringe-worthy. There's a Bat-villain spouting out one of the most absurd plots in Legion history, couched in some of the worst pseudo-science ever. There's Ultra Boy, reduced to the point where he can't even understand simple English sentences. There's Kinetix changed into this creature that can't even formulate simple English sentences. There's giant Vi getting pummelled by a terrorform.

Ultimately, I suppose, it's just down to preferences, but, whatever issues I have with certain things in Waid's run, I find it incredibly pleasing in comparison to the previous series.

Re: Reboot was right
#85437 07/21/05 02:34 AM
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I gotta disagree EDE. I was very excited about the first 7 issues of the last series. First time I was excited about the Legion in over a decade. So for me atleast it was a hilight. And I don't see much of a difference between your UB comparison and this UB.

But I compare the first seven issues of this series to the v4 TMK series personally. Or "somehwere in between" which may be what they are going for??? smile

Re: Reboot was right
#85438 07/21/05 05:23 AM
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The other, unavoidable analogy is to the 1994 reboot, which Waid co-plotted and co-wrote the first year. Completely ignoring the 'Legionnaires' series, the first 7 months of the postboot LSH brought us the following developments:

- Brande assassination thwarted; Legion founded
- About 15 additional Legionnaires inducted by the U.P. draft
- The LSH battles Tangleweb and Mano
- Kid Quantum I is killed
- Live Wire is forced to resign; Workforce introduced
- The Legion stops a prisoner riot on "Planet Hell"
- First inklings of the Chu conspiracy and White Triangle threat
- Budding romances/crushes: Garth/Imra; Jo/Tinya; Brainy/Laurel; Gim/Zoe

I concede that the WaK characterizations are largely superior (though less than half of the 3boot members are fully realized characters at this stage), and the 2boot artwork suffers badly in comparison to Barry's.

BUT, compare the meaty and action-filled 2boot stories that propelled the Legion inexorably towards their final and explosive clash with the White Triangle at the end of Year One to the meandering 3boot stories that promise to lead to insterstellar war by issue #12. Truth is, I can barely recall what's happening from month to month. Issue #5 was a satisfying classic adventure and the destruction of Orando in issue #6 was a pretty good show, too. But otherwise I'm so bored by the protracted exposition and build-up, and so frustrated by the undeveloped and distrustful relationships among team members, I'm already losing track.

I KNOW that Waid and Kitson are better storytellers than this, and that's what's bugging me most.

Re: Reboot was right
#85439 07/21/05 06:27 AM
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By the time we got the the seventh issue of DnA's run on The Legion, I was dreading each issue. I'd only sorta liked Legion Lost (couldn't help feeling like it was an amped up redux of "A Cold and Lonely Corner of Hell") and had hated "Legion of the Damned." (I did enjoy Legion Worlds, but I realize now that it was because, for those six issues, DnA focused more on character than story and gave significant panel time to characters who hadn't been seen much in previous years.) When we got to The Legion, story became the tyrant of the book, cruelly oppressing characterization. For three years, the Legion went from one world-threatening crisis to the next with almost no break. Subplots piled up with no resolution in sight. And the main plotlines had endings so weak, I was left wondering why I was bothering.

Also, while Batista's art was a hugely refreshing change from Coipel's "dirty" style, I ultimately found his depictions of the Legionnaires rather babyish.

Waid and Kitson, by contrast, are producing a book that provides suspense, humor, character, story, and some of the best art to ever grace a Legion book. I know a lot of you have been dismayed by the colors, but I really enjoy the muted feel they give to the Legion's world. It seems like the creators' way of evoking the blandness of the world that the Legion finds itself in.

Anyway, long story short is that I'm loving the new series, far more than the initial post-Zero-Hour reboot stuff or the various DnA periods. And I know a ton of people who have started reading the Legion for the first time with this book. I think DC's got a big winner on their hands. Now they just need to keep promoting the hell out of it.

Re: Reboot was right
#85440 07/21/05 06:58 PM
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I too am enjoying the new series, and not just because it isn't working with the old continuity.

I will go ahead and give DnA Legion of the Damned and Legion Lost. Those had some decent characterization. But, by the time they started Legion, the narration by the characters was gone. All that was left was a shell of action that I found unconvincing by issue #3.

In contrast Waid is giving us a full team of individuals that have characteristics and do things outside of this or the next universe-altering battle. The richness of what Waid is doing far outweighs any need for action gratification that I have.

Sorry some of you aren't enjoying that as much as I.

Re: Reboot was right
#85441 07/21/05 08:12 PM
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Quote
In contrast Waid is giving us a full team of individuals that have characteristics and do things outside of this or the next universe-altering battle. The richness of what Waid is doing far outweighs any need for action gratification that I have.
I can very much identify with this statement.

Re: Reboot was right
#85442 07/21/05 09:19 PM
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I wonder if Identity Crisis may be a reason for the pacing.

Geoff John's was going to tell the origin of Power Girl but then it seemed the Legion rebooted and he had to wait.

So far IC isn't effecting the Legion at all they say. But Power Girl seems to be a part of IC and now the Legion.

Another thing about suspense. If it takes TOO long people lose interest. When I heard Geoff was going to "clean up" Power Girl's origin I couldn't wait...now I don't really care. Marvel's T-Bolts are the same...they set something up for so long...I don't care who the Swordsman is anymore.

I use these examples cause it's taking a long time to meet the legionnaires. I was SUPRISED we got Brin so early and I loved it. But Violet? Eh. Yeah she's a team member I hear. Her debut is going to be anti-climatic at this point methinks.

Re: Reboot was right
#85443 03/10/06 08:58 PM
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I said it before, I'll say it again. Reboot was right.

There have been more duds than even half-successes in Threeboot so far.

And as EDE reminds us, DnA, despite some weaknesses, at least had some good ideas at their disposal, more than Waid has managed thus far.


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Re: Reboot was right
#85444 03/10/06 09:51 PM
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Just the title of this thread alone is a bannable offense.

Re: Reboot was right
#85445 03/11/06 07:40 AM
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I think The Reboot has good things, the new origin, Triad, Umbra, Saturn Girl and really bad moves like Sneackie, Jarth, Emerald Vi.
In the current Threeboot I like the return of Projectra, Dream Girl, Sun Boy,Timber Wolf and even Supergil, but not all is good.
The silly origin of Triplicate Girl, one world full of female clones can't exist forever, in 70 years all the women are old and must die.
Too much changes in Imra, Tinya, Val, Star Boy.
I'll wait a little more time.


From UK with glamour.
Re: Reboot was right
#85446 03/11/06 01:27 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Sensor!
The Bride of Mordru!
Dark Circle Rising!
Foundations!
Wussy Ferro!

All gone!
Quote
Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Teen Ghost Marriages!
Missing Third Bodies that No One Bothers to Look For!
Space Nuns!

All gone!
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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
And, ooooooh, lest I forget

Acid Spit!

Gone!

Re: Reboot was right
#85447 03/11/06 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
I'll admit the series has drug a little bit more than it should, but I think anyone who doesn't dig it more than the previous incarnation has forgotten just how bad the previous incarnation was.

Just a reminder:

Terrorform Zoe!
Attack of the 50' Vi!
Vi's Green Streak!
Cub!
Timber Wolverine!
Alien Horde of the Week!

And that's just for starters.
Quote
Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Crap! I can't stop!

Remember:

Hypertaxis!
Jarth!

Re: Reboot was right
#85448 03/11/06 01:34 PM
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Ugh! I'd forgotten how bad the whole hypertaxis storyline was...

Re: Reboot was right
#85449 03/11/06 01:40 PM
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Unless # 16 shows me different, I'm thinking Reboot and Kent were right.

I submit that there was NOTHING about the postboot Legion that wasn't fixable. Bah! Eryk and I would have had it whipped into tip-top shape in three issues!

There would have been more heroines fighting crime in bikinis than you could shake an earthquake beast at!


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Re: Reboot was right
#85450 03/11/06 01:43 PM
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Jeepers! We've already managed to turn it around in MELatLSH:TS! Of course, we had to eliminate like 95% of the cast...

Re: Reboot was right
#85451 03/11/06 01:56 PM
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And little did we suspect that the little Athramite that was getting beaten up by a mob in LEGIONNAIRES ANNUAL # 2 would later join the post-whiteout Legion as Sensory Lad!


Visit the FULL FRONTAL FANDANGO & laugh along with Lash at http://lashlaugh.wordpress.com/
Re: Reboot was right
#85452 03/11/06 02:11 PM
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Eryk - one question: are you trying to be the anti-me on this matter; basically vocally hating the postboot just to be the oppposite of me?

And Cobie, I'd have thought better of you than to repost all those lists frown
Quote
Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I said it before, I'll say it again. Reboot was right.

There have been more duds than even half-successes in Threeboot so far.

And as EDE reminds us, DnA, despite some weaknesses, at least had some good ideas at their disposal, more than Waid has managed thus far.
Why, according to your post in the sales thread , are you buying two issues a month then? Over a year is too long to buy ONE issue a month on the hope that it'll magically get better, let alone two...


My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Cobalt, Reboot & iB present 21st Century Legion: Earth War .
Re: Reboot was right
#85453 03/11/06 02:35 PM
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'Boot, I don't think either Eryk or myself are trying to be anti-you (and I didn't mean that at all by the lists). There was just so much wrong with the last reboot that I actually can see the point of having the threeboot.

Basically, whether threeboot or reboot, I'll support the Legion, though I may not love either 100%.

If only DnA were allowed to leave earlier and someone continued the reboot with fresh stories that attempted to fix the crap and move forward...

...Although I guess what I really want is the original Legion returned and their stories to continue to go on...

Re: Reboot was right
#85454 03/11/06 02:43 PM
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Actually, I do want to say that I understand that you're angry that the Legion was rebooted again. I really don't blame you for that, because it was *your* Legion.

That's kinda how I feel about the original version too. I think we both (and almost all of us) got burned.

At this point in time, I for the life of me can't see anyway to make it right anymore without continuing on with this new Legion. Outside of DC publishing additional titles, which appears unlikely to ever happen in the next decade...

Re: Reboot was right
#85455 03/11/06 02:43 PM
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My vocal hatred of the postboot has absolutely nothing to do with you, 'Boot.

And it should be noted that I still believe, as I have said repeatedly, that the first year or so of postboot stories are some of the best Legion issues ever. But I believe strongly that it go extremely bad really quickly after that.

I actually wouldn't mind, for example, if they de-booted to Legionnaires Annual #2, and ignored everything that came after that.

Re: Reboot was right
#85456 03/11/06 02:50 PM
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I agree about the first two years of the postboot.

I also think *some* of DnA's run was good:

'Legion of the Damned' - not bad
'Widening Rifts' - better
'Legion Lost #1-7' - meh
'Legion Lost #8-12' - excellent
'Legion Worlds' - excellent
'Legion #1 - 17' - very good
after - not so good with each issue coming closer to 'awful'

final Gail Simone arc - great

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