Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities My Big-Ass Pile o'Trades Waiting To Be Read At My Whim

I'd never thought of that, and I wouldn't be surprised if she was indeed on the precipice.

I think the two biggest mistakes of DC's Jenette Kahn era were killing Helena Wayne and nixing Supergirl-as-Sensor-Girl.

I really like the Huntress stories in Wonder Woman. I remember the Huntress backups were far better than the Wonder Woman stories. It happens occasionally - the backup feature outshines the main story. This also happened in Green Lantern, when the Tales of the Green Lantern Corps stories were much better than the main feature.

Pile UPDATE (4/15/15).....

Recently Read
Star Wars (The Marvel Years) Omnibus Vol. 1 (the rest of it)
Captain America: War & Remembrance
Grendel Omnibus Vol. 2: Legacy


To-Read Pile (new stuff since last time in bold)
Tales of the Batman: Gene Colan
Marvel Masterworks: The Defenders Vols. 3 & 4
Mage Vol. 2: The Hero Defined
Legion Archives Vol. 9 (for the Re-reading project)
West Coast Avengers Omnibus Vols. 1 & 2
Jinx
Goldfish
Fantastic Four by John Byrne Omnibus Vol. 1
Scout Vol. 2
Frank Miller's Ronin Deluxe Edition
Marvel Masterworks: Iron Fist Vol. 1
Spider-Man by Roger Stern Omnibus
Marvel Masterworks: Silver Surfer Vol. 1
Iron Man by Michelinie, Layton & Romita, Jr. Omnibus
Tales of the Batman: Len Wein
Murder Me Dead (David Lapham)
Stray Bullets Uber Alles Edition
Star Wars: Marvel Years Omnibus Vol. 1
Amazing Spider-Man: The Original Clone Saga
Daredevil by Frank Miller & Klaus Jansen Omnibus
Grimjack Omnibus Vol. 2
Avengers Omnibus Vol. 1
Jon Sable: Freelance Omnibus Vols. 1 & 2
Avengers Omnibus Vol. 2
Secret Six Vol. 1: Villains United
Fantastic Four by John Byrne Omnibus Vol. 2
Underwater Welder
Marvel Masterworks: Doctor Strange Vol. 6


Thinking about possibly getting soon....
Orion by Walt Simonson Omnibus
Flex Mentallo
New teen Titans Vol. 2

Yes!! I'm overjoyed. Whenever Simonson builds on Kirby, it's always good.



YES!!! I'm beyond overjoyed! I really do think anyone who loves superhero comics should read it!



Yay! We can always use more traffic in the Titans forum.

Fourth World Omnibus 2 and 3
Flashpoint stuff.
Prequel Watchmen stuff.

<tapping foot impatiently...>

Well, I've finished reading the bulk of From Hell. I still have to read the two Appendices, but I wanted to get down my initial thoughts right away.

Firstly, I think the best way to sum it up would be that the place From Hell should occup in the Moore canon is as the Animus to Promethea's Anima. Taken together, they form Moore's double-sided masterpiece. From Hell, which was written earlier, is far bleaker and more pessimistic and looks toward the beginning of a dark age, while Promethea is at the very least mild hopeful about the future, even if it does take an apocalypse to move us even a little bit forward.

(A digression: regarding Swamp Thing's and Watchmen's places in the Moore canon, I think the former may have the most emotional purity to it which makes it transcend the majority of its flaws, while the latter is behind only the muddled Judgement Day and the dreadful Killing Joke in the Bottom Three of Moore's canon.)

Lardy did a good job of summing up the class-warfare and metaphysical aspects of the story. I would only add three things:

1. I think Inspector Fred Abberline is one of Moore's most memorable male protagonists; despite his fundamental decency, he is, in the end, still very much a product of his times, but no less sympathetic for that (I haven't seen the movie, but the thought of Johnny Depp playing Abberline is nauseating. Jim Broadbent would have made the perfect Abberline, IMO.)

2. Critics who find Moore's entire canon of work overly clinical really need to re-read both From Hell and Promethea. Moore is one of popular arts true visionaries, and one of the few who can see every side of an issue.

3. Eddie Campbell's envisioning of most of the metaphysical scenes is jaw-dropping, especially the full-page splash of the killer's vision before he starts killing. The only one that fell flat for me was his vision of the future as he commits the final murder -- then again, perhaps the flatness was delibrate, and indicative of the way Moore sees (saw?) modern life.

A final thought: as I was reading From Hell, I myself experienced weird connections in my head between a friend's health problems and the fanfic I was working on, and while I didn't have visions, I did at times feel like I was being pulled away from mundane reality. Such is the power of Alan Moore's best writing, I suppose. In the personal fallout after reading Promethea, I felt cleansed of any lingering anxieties regarding organized religion and the apocalypse. Time will tell what the positive lasting effects of From Hell are.

I liked Abberline, as well, and found his relationship with the prostitute fascinating, especially how she obviously felt about his desire to change the nature of their relationship. The bookends detailing his friendship with the psychic were real highlights, too.

In the movie, btw, Abberline and Mary Kelley are in love. Just one of many points showing what a poor adaptation it was. Depp's Abberline is nothing like Moore's. (I think Depp's Abberline was himself the psychic and randomly addicted to absinthe, iirc....ugh.) Nothing like Moore's Abberline, among many other numerous faults. Fans of the book should never assuage their curiosity--trust!

I need to re-read Promethea at some point. I've only ever read it once, and that was during its original, very erratic publication. Cobie's recent first reading of it and your mention here make me start thinking of a first re-read.

As I've written elsewhere, V For Vendetta is currently my favorite Moore work and From Hell is the biggest contender. Third place is probably up in the air between Swamp Thing and Watchmen. While Watchmen has lost some of its luster, largely due to its over-exposure and DC's recent cash grab "event" with Before Watchmen, it remains a great work of his in my mind.

I'm really curious about his upcoming Providence from Avatar Press. Seems like I haven't read anything "new" from Moore in a long time. I'm fallen behind on his more recent LXG stuff (though I own all three "Century" prestiges) and don't own any of the Nemo spin-offs. I followed Fashion Beast last year, but that was actually an adaptation of an old screenplay of his by another writer and loses something in translation, I think, especially as it wasn't intended as a comic script. My comic book guy said his Crossed +100 stuff has been pretty underwhleming. So I'll be watching reviews on Providence.

The movie combined Abberline and the psychic into one character?

That's so ridiculous it's almost funny.

Now I'm happier than ever that I never watched the movie.

Glad to learn that Cobie and I have partly inspired a Promethea re-read, Lardy. It occurs to me as I'm typing this that it's not only the feminine counterpart to From Hell, it's also a more satisfying re-working of a lot of the plot and themes of the year-long American Gothic arc from Swamp Thing.

I haven't re-read V for Vendetta in years, and while I remember liking it, very little of it has stuck in my mind the way my favorite Moore works have.

Regarding LoXG, I remember being underwhelmed by the final installment of Century, and I haven't read any of the Nemo spin-offs yet.

I have no interested in Crossed or any of its satellite series, and I'm on the fence about trying Fashion Beast.

And I confess I hadn't even heard of Providence. What's it about? Who is the artist? Why is it coming out through Avatar instead of Top Shelf?

Moore's had a number of things published thru Avatar, including Fashion Beast (not sure that I can recommend that one). Top Shelf seems mostly his home for LXG and some others.

Here's a link to some of Avatar's info on Providence. It works with some Lovecraftian concepts and is related to Moore's Neonomicon (which I also haven't read).

Yeah, I'm glad I didn't see it after I read From Hell. I certainly won't ever watch it again. I don't know why they bothered to call it an adaptation at all, really. Basically, they threw out everything but the barest bones of the plot and even shook that up like a Magic 8-Ball to make it just another Depp vehicle.



Lots of authors revisit and reexamine certain themes and ideas. The best, like Moore, do it so well that you don't mind at all.



I don't know why. It's something about its symbolism, themes, messages, characters and subplots that just DO it for me upon multiple reads.



I don't know what I've been waiting for as far as reading those Century books. Maybe its because, though I really dug the first LXG series, the first sequel didn't do it as much for me. I haven't read/don't own Black Dossier. Maybe I'm subconsciously influenced by my disappointment in the second series?

Seems the reviews on the Nemo books have been very positive, though.



Me neither, after suffering thru the initial Ennis series. Moore's name always raises an eyebrow, though.

Thanks for the Providence link, Lardy. And I haven't read Neonomicon, either.

Re: LoXG, that's something interesting to learn, because I myself was very disappointed by the second arc. Great minds and all that. But please do read Black Dossier, I think it's the best the series will probably ever get. And of the three Century prestiges, I enjoyed the middle one, 1969, the most by far.

Re: V for Vendetta, it's certainly timely, possibly even timeless (which is a sad comment on politics, but I digress), and I guess I should give it a considered re-read sometime.

Some great back and forth going on here! I'll chime in on a few things.

I love all the insight on From Hell, which I still think about all the time a year after I read it. I wholeheartedly agree on Fanfie's comment that Aberline is among the greatest of Moore's protagonists. Moore never once strays from the era or letting Fred be true to himself--flaws and all--but in the process creates a very nuanced and complex character that on the surface always appears very straight forward. It's really well done.

Also agree about Campbell, especially that one page spread depicting Gull's "deity" that he believes he is serving. I went ahead and bought two other Campbell works right after I read FH and I enjoyed them immensely. I also picked up the From Hell companion book, which is like another tomb of additional info on FH from Campbell's perspective.

One thing that isn't obvious at first, and this is a spoiler if anyone hasn't read it, is that the prostitute who grows close with Fred and ultimately bilks him is Marie Kelly. This is never confirmed in story but Campbell reveals in the aforementioned book that this is how Moore and he referred to her internally the whole time. Of course, the ending also shows the metaphysical death throes Gull seeing Marie's happy ending, also never spelled out, as well as the happy ending of the heir to the throne. Typical Moore--none of this is spoon fed to the reader.

Regarding the movie, it would be ok for what it is but it certainly isn't From Hell. Depp as Aberline immediately makes totally different and inferior, but even worse is the movie is basically a mystery story that reveals the Ripper's identity in the third act. In other words, it loses half of what makes the OGN so good, and puts it among a few dozen other mediocre Ripper stories.

A few fast thoughts on other things:

- I def recommend a reread for V for Vendetta (my other favorite along with From Hell) and Promethea (another one I still think about constantly) to you both respectively. It's hard to give added praise to works so superb other than it'll be worth the reread regardless of when you last read them.

- like you both, I didn't love the 2nd LXG either. I liked Century 1 & 2 well enough but really didn't like the final part all that much. That said, I've adored the Nemo stories and read with a smile from ear to ear when they came out. Moore and O'Neil are loving what they do when they make them.

- I am actually enjoying Crossed 100+ quite a bit! I've found the whole Crossed phenom to be hugely unappealing, though I did find myself bored one day, and checked out the free webcomic Crossed: Wish You Here, and then found himself quite impressed. But this is something quite different, and it's pure Moore. I'd say don't read it until you really are in the mood to work for it; it takes some adjusting to get used to Moore's language, and he doesn't let up an inch in befuddling you every line of dialogue along the way as to what the hell they're talking about. But that's kinda the point of the whole thing I think, as I suspect we'll see.

- lastly, I never read Necrominon but I'd caution anyone before trying it because I've heard it's Moore's worst work, and it's also the meanest and most awful in terms of violence and rape. From what I've read, I have no desire to check it out. In fact, if you've avoided Crossed because you know how innately disgusting and awful it is, this is right on par.

It's always a pleasure when you chime in, Cobie.

I'll get to V for Vendetta sometime later in the year. I still have to continue the PAD Hulk re-read, which I left off on the cusp of its peak, the issues leading up to and including 400, mostly drawn by Dale Keown.

Speaking of re-reads, are you and Lardy still planning to continue the X-Men re-read?

And thanks for the warning about Neonomicon.

I got the latter clues about Marie's happy ending, but I don't think ever thought of Abberline's prostitute being her. I think the similar happy ending for Marie in the film made me kinda look for it, though.



That's exactly it: not the worst movie ever in and of itself, but it is in no way, shape or form worthy of being an adaptation of From Hell. I didn't mention the mystery aspect of the film, but it's one of infinite criticisms I have of it as an adaptation.



Make no mistake, I LOVED Promethea! And I'm sure I'll love it as much or probably more the second time around! I'm very curious how it will be reading it without the long wait between issues. I'll most definitely do this sooner rather than later.



That's what I needed to hear about the Nemo books. They're now firmly on my radar.



Is +100 still going on now with Moore as writer? I thought I'd heard it had already been passed on to someone else.



If this is accurate (and Avatar is known largely for its mega-violent and hyper-sexual fare), then that bodes ill for Providence. It's why I'll be watching the reviews closely.

I assume we are, but we haven't talked about it recently. For my part, I'm not in a super-huge hurry but do want to do it eventually.

Thoughts, Cobie?



BTW, Le Ficque...have you read Moore's run on Supreme? I certainly highly recommend it if you haven't. I also recommend Top 10, which I don't think Cobie's ever read.

About Black Dossier: Is it an actual story....or basically a dossier?

Black Dossier is part story, part dossier. It's a mix of different mediums to tell a story, such as old newspaper articles and the like. It's really dense and comprehensive. I remember enjoying it immensely bur when I was done I was like "whew, that was a lot of work!"

As to X-Men, I'm ready when you guys are, but I'm also not in a rush and can wait if you have a backlog to get through. Having just finished my TPB backlog, I now have a pile of novels in front of me I plan to read, including Hemingway, Vonnegut and Dostoyevsky that I've never read before. (My sister is a manager at a book store / cafe, so my siblings and I have our own little book club now).

On Crossed 100+, I believe Moore is letting Si Spurrier do issues #7-12, and then is set to return after. Or at least that's what they say. If he doesn't, I'll be hugely dissapointed. I'm willing to give Spurrier a chance because he impressed me with Crossed: Wish You Here, but I'm not really in the mood to give the Crossed series too much wiggle room to impress me. The hyper violence and sexuality, especially sexual violence, that Lardy alluded to is just way too over the line for me.

Lardy, I'm happy to say I have read the second of the two Alan Moore Supreme trades, and I love it. Ahh, if only he'd been able to do this kind of stuff with Superman instead of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" Yeah, I know, he was "in a bad mood" during the 80s, but still...

Regarding the X-Men re-read, it's actually more likely I'll be able to participate if it doesn't happen yet for a while, since I've still got over 100 issues of PAD's Hulk to re-read. But if you guys want to start before me, I'll definitely be enjoying your reviews and chiming in on occassion.

Not to give the "From Hell" movie any more time than it's worth (it's really bad), I found it was like some "Bizarro" version of the story. Everything laid out in the book is mystery in the movie (turning it into a bad "whodunnit") while everything that was subtle in the book is laid out in the movie (Abberline and Kelly). It's not even hilariously bad, it's just a complete mis-reading of what the whole book is about.

No wonder Moore hates movies, he's not only 0-4 on adaptations, but those adaptations miss the mark so completely it's astounding.

At least "For the Man Who Has Everything" made a decent TV show.

Just to add my nodding head to the views about From Hell comics and movie. While I enjoyed the comic (although I've not reread it) the film reminded me of Poe movies. They take the title of a Poe story and tape a different plot to it. I was too busy wondering what the heck I'd just watched to really be have any reaction to it. I was too gob smacked to be disappointed. It was so poor. I liked Watchmen though, picking up on the Moore related films.

I think that both Watchmen and V For Vendetta were decent adaptations.

Watchmen was about as faithful to the plot as any movie could be to its source. The main question up for debate, imo, is whether the experience of the book could ever truly translate into film. I tend to think so, though it's not as re-watchable as the book is re-readable. Otherwise, aside from certain caveats about performances and presentation and the ending (which I think improved on giant calamari), I don't know how anyone could ask for a better adaptation, really.

I think the V film succeeded to a lesser degree than Watchmen but still made for a very affecting movie experience. Yes, it wasn't nearly as deep in storytelling and character arcs, but the basic story was still there and delivered with at least some power. I think part of that was a filmmaker decision to not exactly dumb it down but make it more relevant to modern social concerns and sensibilities.

LXG and From Hell? Those movies were travesties that spit in the face of the source material, with no question.

I expect serious disagreement here over the two that I support, but it's how I feel.

I'd pretty much agree with that Paladin. V wasn't a shade on the comic, but some of the basics were there.

I think that the Watchmen movie ending was an improvement over the comic too.

I thought I had detailed my problems with the Watchmen movie over on the thread devoted to it, but I see that I basically said "Hated it, will expand on why later", and never got back to it. Looks like I'm overdue.

First off, the movie looks fantastic. Sequences lifted from the books are about the best you can ask for. The problem for me is Snyder didn't understand the book. At all.

The book is about six different points of view, often contradictory, presented equally and without judgement (you can argue how successful Moore was with this, but that's what was presented). In my view, the movie's primary failure is that Snyder/Hayter took sides. Not only is Adrien's POV chapter excised completely, Dan's inserted speech at the end clearly shows that's his is the "right" point of view and that Adrien is the villain (As opposed to the book where Dan can't process it and Adrien is left in doubt after the book's pivotal scene with Jon that is also cut). To me these aren't just adaptation decisions, these are fundamental changes to the structure of the narrative, which is paramount to the book.

And then there's the violence. Snyder loves violence (based on his body of work), which made him horribly unsuited for this film. One of the Central tenants of the book is "what if these people actually did these things". When violence happens in the book it is brutal, often nauseating and horrifying as well. It's meant to show how crazy and strange it would be if people in costumes attacked others like this. Snyder undermines ALL of that with his slick, slo-mo, over the top action scenes that were physically impossible and strongly fetishized. In the book when violence breaks out you are disturbed and meant to reflect on what's really happening. In the movie Snyder is clearly trying to make you think "Man, that was cool!"

I remember leaving the theatre completely let down and angry. Re-watchings haven't softened my disdain any.

V wasn't as bad for me as Watchmen, but it was once again a complete mis-reading of the source. Here's my litmus test: The word "Anarchy" isn't used once in the film that I can recall.