Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans THE TITANS 1-50: Grayson, Faerber & Peyer

So I know a lot of fans were left cold by this run, and once Grayson left, I was too.

But I recently re-read the entire run to determine wether or not I wanted to keep it or sell it.

I decided to keep it.

I already knew I liked Devin Grayson's run; I liked all the stuff the DC Board fans were hating on. I thought it made sense that Starfire would disintegrate Addie's brain-dead body; I thought it quite probable that Cyborg would hesitate in battle when tempted with the ability to get a fully-human body back; I thought it quite sensible that Donna would be uncomforable around Wally after his memories restored her; I also thought it made sense that Donna would hook back up with Roy to explore her "bad-girl" side; I was fascinated that Donna alone could not get into Goth's Hell; plus you had to love Grayson's take on Lian, Jesse Quick and Damage. They were just likeable.

Yeah, Goth was kinda silly but I didn't mind. The HIVE were made fairly ineffectual but that was okay. The villain-team Tartarus was a pretty cool idea. I was also a BIG fan of Buckingham's art and loved his fill-in artist Justiniano even more. Adam DeKraker's fill-ins were quite good too.

So then Jay Faerber came along... started off well enough with a "Who Is" Donna story featuring the Teen Titans of Kingdom Come. But even then, cracks in his storytelling were visible-- like ummm... Nightwing (or anyone ELSE for that matter) not figuring out or knowing that Nightstar was Tamaranean. Hello? That was pretty lame.

Then the runaway DEO kids/Epsilon nonsense. I hated it at the time but upon a straight-through re-read it was okay. Even more than okay sometimes.

Faerber gets points for bringing in characters like Rose Wilson (who became Lian's nanny), Flamebird and Dolphin (Garth's wife) but gets demerits for not really doing anything interesting with them. And his utter trashing of Jesse Quick's (and also Liberty Belle's) character is inexcusable.

Paul Pelletier, whose art I normally like, was substandard for him. And I wasn't a big fan of Peter Grau's fill-ins. But then along came...

Barry Kitson! So the art took a turn for the better. Kitson finished off Faerber's run and was there for the coming of Tom Peyer as writer.

So, Peyer's writing: I'm still waiting for him to do something unforgettable that will make me a fan. That certainly isn't the case with his brief TITANS run, although he gets points for doing weird stuff (the Titans on a totally drug-addicted planet; the Titans vs. alien ghosts; Starfire, Donna & Jesse with aluminum foil on their heads) and some of it is also amusing. Not Giffen/DeMatteis funny, but worth a chuckle or two.

So I decided to keep the whole run. I guess on the whole, I liked it more than I didn't. Plus this run also contains The JLA/TITANS mini, which re-inserts Duela Dent into Titans continuity (BLESS you Devin & Phil!!), plus the BEAST BOY mini (Justiniano art!!) which revitalizes Flamebird. Then the annuals and Secret Files (more Justiniano, Duela, Flamebird and Titans L.A).

Whew. That may be my longest post ever.

I'm curious as to others' opinions of this run, so do tell. Wether you loved or hated it, and why.

I really liked the early issues of this run, too. I thought the flashbacks that were shown every few issues were great.

I wish they'd dealt with Donna's stuff much more quickly. That seemed to drag.

I really liked the structure of the early team-- each of the Fab 5 selecting a 'second' for times when they were busy. They never really capitalized on that structure the way they could've.

Tartarus had potential... did I imagine it, or aren't they supposed to appear in some other title?

The Faerber run... DEO Kids and the Jesse/Liberty Belle yuckiness... Epsilon's eventual boringness (I liked him at first)... Dolphin's shrewishness and lack of a porpoise (Ha!)...

When released, I liked Faerber- since he seemed intent on settling the Donna confusion. I think there was a lot of editorial interference going on-- and that Faerber was effectively hamstrung. Too bad, since he said it was a dream job for him.

Kitson added quite a bit... the direction was slowly swinging into something cohesive when the cancellation was announced (ain't it always the way?).

That image of Donna and Starfire flying around with aluminum hats on their heads is one I'll never forget-- HAHAHA! still makes me chuckle. Duela should've been involved in that storyline.

At the time, it made me wince- since I knew the title was 'on the bubble'. Now, I look back on that with fondness-- similar to what I feel for the Planetary Chance Machine or Imra and her medallion-fetish.

Jay was essentially told what to write by his editor, who had pretty much taken over plotting the book. The DEO kids were his editor's idea, along with just about everything else. If I ever get to print the interview that I did with him in a sequel to the Titans Companion, he should be vindicated in a lot of Titans' fans eyes. All of which is all the more reason to read Noble Causes, to see what he can do on his own without editorial interference.

I hope you get to print that interview. I'd be interested in reading it.

Was the Jesse Quick/Liberty Belle's boyfriend thing the editor's idea, too?

Yup, but he did like that one and wished that he'd thought of it himself. The exception to the rule!

Was Eddie Berganza the editor during this period? One more nail in his coffin if so.

That must have been SO frustrating for poor Jay! You get your dream job and then some stupid editor makes you write about the DEO kids. Ugh!

I'm curious as to how this situation arose. Isn't that kind of overstepping the role of an editor? And didn't I read somewhere that Berganza had recently been promoted or something at DC? You'd think that this type of behaviour would be the type of thing to get you fired.

I'd love to read that interview Glen!

editors are a tricky lot but it's not an easy job for them either - trying to push their title to 'make it' in an ever-shrinking industry with less and less corporate support

freelancers without any kind of 'pull' on their name probably come into a situation where they are 'too open' to an editor's 'suggestions' at first, leading to an ever-increasing 'push' by the editorial staff

i interviewed for a job once at Marvel ... and the editor adored me until she asked the question: what recent Marvel comic did you love and which did you hate and why? So I told her about her own title, Excalibur, and how much I was enjoying Warren Ellis' run (the then-current writer) with the exception of one horrible sloppy issue where Collosus returns

turns out she basically directed the writing of that single issue

interview over

I'd also love to see the interview Glen, because I have completely avoided anything with Jay's name on it due to how much I hated his run on the Titans.

Which is exactly what he was afraid of, which is why he left the book. It was still a tough decision, though, given his love of the characters.

I cannot recommend Noble Causes enough. People should pick up the first trade and if it's not for them, fine, but it's a helluva page turner. I read the whole thing in one sitting - I just couldn't put it down. I figured that I should be familiar with it if I was going to interview him, and I ended up only wanting to talk about Noble Causes, it was that good. I had to suppress that urge, though.

Jay's editor was Andy Helfer, who was fired by DC not too long after the Titans was cancelled. Did it play a role in his firing? It's hard to say, but I think so.

You guys will have a long wait to read that interview - if all goes according to plan, it'll be about a year from now before it comes out. You could always hedge your bets by buying The Titans Companion, though.

Largely in agreement with what's already been posted about this series: enjoyed Devin Grayson's issues; came very close to dropping the title, but then it was announced that Kitson & Peyer were taking over so I kept it on my pull list; thought it was really improving by the time it was cancelled.
One story I remember was the trip to the Vega system ... Tempest displaying a keen grasp of Gordanian diplomacy (in retrospect, seems like that was the last time Tempest got to be useful for quite a while in the book ) ... and which ended (very sensibly, I thought) with Starfire being written out of the book. Of course, much as this made sense in story terms, it wasn't very popular with Kory's fans (and I am one myself, I just don't think she belongs on Earth in the mainstream DCU any longer) ... if I had been in charge of DC at the time, she would have become part of a relaunched L.E.G.I.O.N.

Like you even have to ask?!?!
I have both your Legion books. I used the interviews heavily in a paper I was working on in graduate school on comics.

I was underwhelmed by this Titans run from start to finish. Maybe I was expecting too much, since it featured some of my favorite Titans finally returning to the series. Unfortunately, the writing never really seemed to click with me. None of the writers really seemed to have a handle on the personalities of the team, and most of the artists just weren't up to it (far too many happy faces in the early issues, and the artists toward the end (who I usually really like) just never seemed to be on their game (of course, alot of that could be the inkers, too).

I'm not selling my run, but at the same time I don't see myself going back to reread them any time soon.

Anybody picked any of these issues up in the discount bins lately?

I haven't read them since they were coming out, so its all on memory for me. I have to say, I really didn't enjoy this run much at all.

Devin's initial 12 issues were a good read, mainly because I liked the comraderie of the ten Titans on the roster. I'm not a Titans fan that *loves* the Fab 5 together, but I did like the chemistry b/t the ten as it gave a sense of 'Titans of all eras, looked out for by the original five'. Cyborg took the first step to a welcome road of redemption for the character (it really began in the JLA/Titans mini and then here), Damage had some good characterization, Jesse has been a fave of mine since her first appearance and Argent was the only one of the Atom/Jurgen's Titans that I ever really cared for.

Around the exit of Wally (issue #12), some very real flaws began to show up in Devin's writing however. She wasn't able to write villains well or action well, which took away a great deal of tension. Tempest became increasingly boring and the Donna/Roy relationship just felt flat to me. This is before Devin was on Nightwing (where she lost just about all credibility with me), so I was still pretty pumped on her writing at this point and was starting to be surprised at the level of quality. Hated the way the HIVE were presented especially.

I basically hated everything about Faeber's run, especially the DEO Orphans, the crap about Jesse and Libby, and Epsilon. I remember thinking that if this was the type of stories we'd be getting with the originals + two or three others, then I'd rather never see Dick, Donna, Roy or Garth in Titans again. There felt like no chemistry or magic at all. I always loved Rose and Dolphin, but neither did much here. Argent, who I originally liked, because more difficult to emphathize with. Roy became more annoying. Garth became more boring. And this was after Roy and Garth became two characters I was enjoying more than ever because of Peter David's Aquaman and Roy's previous Titan's stint as Arsenal.

Peyer's run was forgettable, but that's probably b/c I'd lost interest long since. I remember thinking Barry Kitson's art here was a waste of his immense talent and he should be on something more exciting.

So...geez, I guess that was pretty negative. But like I said, its all from memory. And this was at a time when I was a sophmore or junior at college and was having less and less time to read any comics, so I was generally harsher on comics that weren't spectaculur (Titans, Superman comics, FF, Spidey) and had more praise for comics that I felt were keeping me interested in the comic book industry (JSA, Sandman trades, Preacher trades, Batman & Detective).

I don't have all the issues from this run. The majority of them are from the first thirty issues.

I haven't really paid attention to the whole DEOrphans sub plot, I only look at those issues when I want to look at Paul Pelletier's Arsenal art. He's at the top of my list for favorite Roy artists alongside Rick Mays and Viola Tanganelli.

I try to stick to this series because of how DC has repeatedly dumped on the Fab Five ever since. It's the last time Dick, Donna, Wally, Roy, and Garth were on a team together, I think. It also doesn't attempt to shove the Wolfman/Perez Titans down everyone's throats like nearly every other Titans book has done since. Well that, and now it's also Tim/Kon/Cassandra romantic shenanigans. BLECH.

I liked the Gargoyle mini-arc, the storyline about Roy, Lian, and Damage, where Roy shows just how much of a better father figure he is then Green Arrow could EVER hope to be by making an effort to help Grant. And so did Lian.

I can't say I'm fond of the constant "Who is Donna" story arc thing, but I liked issues 23 to 25 because it featured the Kingdom Come Teen Titans and actually gave them more dialog and personality then they had in the actual story, and the main villain was Dark Angel who is my all time favorite Titans villain and a sorely underused character.

But yeah, I came to look to this series for more focus on Roy and Lian. I've always felt Lian was a Titans character first and foremost instead of an Arrow character.

I kinda wish we could've seen the Arsenal/Dakota relationship thing actually take off though.

Those three issues are the only ones of this run that I've read to date, and then mainly because Donna's my girl. I enjoyed them despite their flaws (I recall reading in the Wikipedia entry for Hypertime that Faerber's original plans for the story got watered down.) I might get the previous 21 issues, I'm not very familiar with Devin's other work, but I do love me some decent Titans stories.

Okay what you'll want to do, FL, is look to the Batman Plus issue she wrote and the Arsenal miniseries she did with Rick Mays.

You should be careful if you're looking at her Nightwing issues from what I'm told. You see, um, the story arc with Tarantula was not handled properly and she only just recently formerly apologized for it because she realized her terminology back then was incorrect and damaging.

Will do, Sarky, thanks.

Bargain bins, here I come!

I thought the early issues of her Nightwing run right after Dixon left were pretty decent, but it went to crap REALLY fast.

The series had the most damning of traits: it was bland and forgettable. I wanted to like this series. I was on-board. I was forgiving of some of the meandering plots. It just never clicked for me. The stories weren't horrible, but they weren't good at all either.

When month-to-month you are scratching your head saying "What happened last issue again?", but you also know that it's not worth your time to dive back in for a re-read, that's when a series is flat-lining.

I picked up the first few issues of this and also a few around the Gargoyle story (assuming they aren't the same issues)

I liked the line up, they interacted with each other well and um... I don't really remember much happening. I do recall thinking that there were too many people on the team. Was it a case of too much of the issue revolving around them rather than any action? I can't remember really.

I think it was the same around the Gargoyle stories. I picked them up for the covers I think. Some nice reaffirmation of the cast and their bonds. But beyond that, I don't remember much happening.

Hey guys, I'm glad I found this again, but, in the Arsenal miniseries Devin Grayson and Rick Mays did, they had interviews in the back that focused on Roy talking about his past. The last part wasn't published, but someone put it online.

http://www.angelfire.com/ks/RoyToys/bornunderbadsign.html

The link to the full Devin interview didn't work, so I Googled it and found one that worked:

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/tbu-exclusive-3/

The interview about Nightwing or the Arsenal one?

Nightwing.