Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Pretend it's 1979...

...and you, yes YOU, have been chosen to write the Legion of Super-Heroes comic book. Your first issue will be the one immediately following the near-apocalyptic Omega 2-parter.

What's the first thing you'll do?

Hire a psychiatrist to meet with Brainiac Five, twice a week.

Buy Cos a sweater.

Things I vaguely recall from that event;

Wildfire blew himself up again attempting to stop Omega and trashed the HQ?
Brainy is still a bit off his meds.
Tenzil eats the Miracle Machine and steals the 'most crazy Legionnaire' tiara right off of Brainy's head.

I'd build off of that, over the next year.

Wildfire gets a new containment suit, and it slightly changes the expression of his powers (not nearly to the degree that his powers changed from his original suit to his new suit!) and / or his ability to interact with the world (affecting his relationship with Dawnstar, for better or worse).

Strange things happen from time to time around the HQ, and it's eventually discovered that eating the Miracle Machine has had an effect on Matter-Eater Lad, such that his delirium dreams are beginning to come true. He has to be sedated into a dreamless state, after a harrowing fight (as creatures from his subconscious attempt to 'protect' him from his Legionnaire friends), until a cure can be found, as everyone agrees that just keeping a friend and teammate in an artificial coma is *not* the solution!

In between this long-term arc and characterization stuff, there'd be regular far-future crimefighting stuff, like a team being sent out to deal with space pirate activity, or minor villain threats like the reformed Devil's Dozen (with enough new recruits to actually live up to their name!) or new groups of bad-guys like the Star Assassin League or rival Dominator or Khund teams or whatever. None of these groups would warrant a six issue investment, like the LSV or Mordru or Fatal Five, the 'long story' would be deeper characterization and progression of individual arcs, with seeds being sown for a later 'big arc.' Not every six issues needs to be 'paced for trade' (i.e. 5 issues of talky-talk and wheel-spinning, 1 issue of unsatisfying rushed non-conclusion that just sets up the next six issue 'trade' arc), and I'd try to focus on at least a few 'done in one' issues, with most 'fights' being dealt with in two or three issues, tops.

Sounds good, Set. I'd buy it. Especially for the return of the Devil's Dozen.

And, forgive the indulgence but I can't resist:

"Teammate in a coma, I know, I know, it's serious"

Myself, I'd introduce the League of Super-Assassins, but I'd have them actually do what the were created for and assassinate Legionnaires, ones I don't like such as Cosmic Boy, Sun Boy, Karate Kid, and Duo Damsel. Blok would be the only one not to kill, and realize that his heart's not into it, and defect to the Legion.

I'd also mine loose ends like the political troubles on Talok VIII. I wouldn't bring in Lady Memory, though, because Levitz did that character as effectively and definitely as could be done. I'll have to think some more of how this story would go.

Hey FL, what a great thread. I love both Sets and your ideas, what I'd add is the team would be asked to move off Earth due to the damage Omega made to metropolis and would have a year or two rebuilding their previous level of support from the UP, but that would include the Science Police and Star Fleet trying to get involved. Several members would leave and the team would recruit a whole new batch of more alien members as they started to be less Earth-centric and more truly Galactic. By the end of the first year there would maybe be 15 or so of the old team and roughly the same of new members, they'd go to Rann, Thanagar, New Vega, plus several new and definitely alien worlds.

Gods, Harbi, that sounds wonderful, some real universe-building and an emphasis on the science-fiction aspects of the Legion, which in the Official Version got sidelined during the end of the 70s and the early 80s.

Absolutely universe building with heavy sci fi soap opera stories, sounds perfect to me

You'd kill of Cosmic Boy and Sun Boy, Fanfie? You're breaking my heart.

Nothing personal, IL. But I do think any and all characters are fair game. To give just one example, I didn't like TMK killing Wildfire, my favorite male Legionnaire, and then "bringing him back" in a way that added insult to injury. But as creators, they had every right to do it. I wish they'd never done it as anything beyond fan fiction, but if wishes were horses...etc.

I'm not very familiar with this version of the Legion - I read the stories, but only once and while I have a general idea of the history, the details are lost to me. I do enjoy reading all of your ideas though!

I don't know the 1979-1982 era very well, either, having read very few of those issues. But it was arguably the last time that the Legion was untainted by deconstruction. Much as I love a lot of what Levitz did from 1983 to 1989, I think it could be argued that the end result kind of "dried out the soil" so to speak. The whole Legion mythos was still pure and fertile in 1979, and it's looked increasingly attractive to me as a possible point to do an alternate timeline (which I already tried to do with the post-"Universo Project" Legion, but that one proved to be too hard of a nut to crack.)

I can understand that. It's just that Sun Boy has been killed off twice now, both times in ways that weren't fitting to one of my favorite characters. In the case of Cosmic Boy, he's one of my all time favorite characters so I would never want to see him die.

I try to think of these characters as having a long history and many fans who aren't me. So even if I don't 'get' Invisible Kid or Matter-Eater Lad or particularly like certain characters, like Quislet, when I do use them in my fanfics, I try to be respectful to them, because just because this isn't my particular flavor, doesn't mean I have some right to crap all over it (or people who like it).

I've seen entirely too many comic book writers crap all over characters they don't like, or even, in the case of some misanthropic Brits, crap all over the very concept of heroism or idealism, and that just bugs me, because it's disrespectful not to the character, who is, after all, entirely fictional, but to the readers who have appreciated that character for decades and who are, at the end of the day, paying their salary.

I don't want to be anything like them, and while I will happily write out or just not use characters I'm not confident in presenting well (since better, IMO, to not use one of 25 characters than to force myself to be inclusive and get that character wrong and bug the people who *do* like that character!), I am hesitant to kill off characters or blow up planets or do other things that, too often, in my experience, seem to be done as cheap stunts. (Ima blow up Titan and have Shady sleep with Earth-Man and kill Sun Boy! That's totally going to make up for my run not being particularly good...)

There's also the fact that such things rarely stick around. If there's anything 'cheaper' than killing off a character you don't like, it's the next writer bringing them back a few years later. Any narrative weight the best-written dramatic death (say, Jean Grey, on the moon) might have earned is devolved into a Benny Hill skit as the character refuses to stay dead, and entire storylines are watered down because of retcons like 'That was never Spider-Man in all those powerful stories, that was actually his clone...' or whatever.

If I do kill a hero, it will be someone I love, so there will be zero chance that I'd just bump off a character I'm too lazy to write for, or that I 'don't get' or whatever.

'Off-screen' is infinitely big, after all, and has room for anyone I don't want to use.

Great insight, Set!

BTW, I love your Last Sun Boy Story. It feels like the best Dirk I've read since before the 5YL Legion.

Thanks! And, to the topic, I felt weird killing off Dr. Regulus, since he's a long term character that adds to Sun Boy's history and characterization. I hoped that my own additions, of the sun-aliens, would make up for what I was taking away, since I always prefer to add more options for character and story development than I subtract.

To each their own, Set. I'm not a misanthropic Brit, but I am a misanthropic Anglophile, so...

Very well said! If only more creators (past and present) took this approach when playing in the DC toybox.

Heh.

Where I totally *would* feel comfortable, is in killing off a character that I created. So Kid Couture or Ultra Girl or even Laser Ape (who I didn't exactly create, but did flesh out), totally open season, *if* I felt the story called for it. Like all writers, I do like to murder my darlings.

I just feel weird murdering other people's darlings.

Similarly, I'm fine with some character death, if it's a good story.

The death of Jean Grey, while editorial mandate, was *powerful* stuff, and really effective. (Undone, IMO, by retconning that Jean Grey into being a phoenix-entity clone, and bringing back 'the real Jean' for a lackluster bout of farting around until being killed again, when the writer-of-the-day recognized that her swan song had already been written, and she was just sort of lurching around like a narrative zombie, stinking up the place.)

Once it becomes a stunt, like the death of Superman or the death of Wolverine, which deep sea tube worms who don't even know what comic books are, already know isn't going to last, that just cheapens the sense of drama that the threat of death (and the *rare* times it should be actually used) is supposed to evoke.

Nowadays, an X-Man dies and it's like, 'Eh. We won't see them for six months, I guess. Would it have been more or less *bold* and *shocking* for them to have joined the Peace Corps or taken an overseas sabbatical or been stuck in the Savage Land for six months instead?'

Hi Set, what's wrong with being a misanthropic Brit?

People die, it's a sad fact of life and while I can understand the cheapness of some stunts that comic book writers and editors sometime pull being frustrating and disheartening for us readers I do genuinely believe that characters need to die - not because I personally don't like them - but because in real life people die!

The characters we all read are in the most fantastic situations dealing with potentially galaxy threatening events, so to me it's sometimes more of a cheap stunt that occassionally some more aren't killed. To my mind if their deaths have a lasting effect and bring about change then it's done well, if they are brought back in 6 months without too much trouble then it's poor writing.

As you know I've killed characters I like in my fan-fics and may do so again, it's not something to take pleasure in, it's done because it is part of the story. It doesn't diminish my regard for them, it just means that all the great memories I have of them won't continue to grow after that point. And if their death has had a meaning then it adds to their story.

As for 'misanthropic' - really Set, that's narrow. Surely you see that there are a wide range of characters, personality types and motivations in everyone you know, and not all are always positive and lovely so what's wrong with the comic charactes echoing that?

That said, Death of Superman and Death of Wolverine are two storylines I purposefully ignored as they just screamed of rubbish.

I'll have to think about the premise more, but one thing I'd definitely do:

Keep Brainiac Five as an ongoing villain.

That's a good point Eryk, B5 as a villain would be really chilling.

By misanthropic, I mean the writers who are keen to deconstruct the notion of super-heroes, and end up writing stuff like the Change or Die Stormwatch / Authority arc, because, in their own words, they don't believe that human beings could possibly ever be idealistic enough to be heroes, without actually becoming worse tyrants than any they've opposed. (Which, IMO, was a story well-told in the Squadron Supreme mini-series (or, in a different direction, in the Watchmen) and has just been repeated over and over with the Authority, and the Justice Lords, and the Ultimates, etc.)

I *do* believe that people can be brave, or noble, or self-sacrificing, or heroic, can be idealistic, and that sets me and my comic book preferences very far apart from the kind of writer that writes an Ultimates story that *literally* portrays Captain America as a jack-booted thug, because he hates the very idea that somebody could have noble and honest intentions, that somebody (and, of all the gall, a filthy American!) could be considered a hero.

Sure, there's room for all sorts, and not every super-hero needs to be bold or idealistic or noble, and the comics have *always* had some examples of less-than-awesome 'heroes' with feet of clay, ranging from Iron Man to Thor (kicked out of 'heaven' for being an impulsive bully) to the Human Torch to Spider-Man (who had to learn his lesson the hard way), to darker characters like the Punisher and Wolverine and more mercenary heroes like the Paladin (and it's interesting to me how more mercenary or corporate heroes, whether it be the Power Company or this latest X-Factor run, fail whenever they are attempted, making me wonder if the majority of the audience that responds to morally gray heroes are more interested in seeing heroes being torn down, than 'realistic people doing realistic things').

Deconstruction can be an important part of growth, reforging a character into something new. (Screaming Mimi, for instance, got torn down by the death of her boyfriend, and came back swinging as Songbird, a character that, IMO, is 500% better.)

But that doesn't seem to be the goal of the Ultimates writers. They just wanted to make Hulk a cannibalistic rapist, Pym even *more* to be associated with wife-beating, Stark even *more* shifty, etc. And they did. And, unfortunately, they've moved past the Ultimates grimdark universe full of 'realistic' people who fling their fingernails down other people's throats (Funny definition of 'realistic,' that...), to the 'mainstream' Marvel Universe, where they can make Thor no longer worthy of Mjolnir, Iron Man an architect of a Civil War between heroes, etc.

I don't read superhero comics because I *hate* these characters and want them to be dragged through the mud and made un-heroic. I want them to struggle, yes, perhaps even to lose, every now and then, but, ultimately, to be the good guys, and offer a little entertainment in a real world that sometimes seems to lack as many inspiring people to admire and look up to.

Just to pick my last fanfic, in The Last Sun Boy Story, I didn't sugar-coat Dirk. He's still a bit of a cad. He didn't join the Legion because he's Mother Theresa or wants to dedicate his life to selfless service. He's a much more complicated (and perhaps much more simple?) person than that. And yet, when it's time to make some heroic choices, he delivers, out of pride and stubbornness and a refusal to give up, if nothing else.

IMO, a hero can be 'realistic' and have three-dimensional motivations without being a wife-beater or a cannibal rapist or a jack-booted thug or a tin-plated despot out to make everyone's choices for them because he's smarter and knows best.

And so I use the word 'misanthropic,' IMO, accurately, to describe some writers who seem to think 'realistic' is all of the above things, which makes me wonder how horrible it must be in 'real' Britain, with all the ultra-violent cannibals and tyrants running around.

Post Omega Legion

There's quite a few gloomy comments in these issues about the future of the Legion. Some repercussions from the Omega story:-

Chameleon Boy didn't survive Brainy's attack. With Brainy determined to destroy the universe there's no way that he would let Cham live. Has this ended Brainy's chances of ever getting back onto the team?

Mon-El was affected by the full force of Omega. He will become weaker as the months go by. He first notices something's wrong as he clears away the HQ debris in 252. Does the Phantom Zone await?

Omega was the concentrated hared of everyone in the galaxy given form. Such energy begins to spark activity on a small rocky planet that travels through the galaxy. Apokalips rises.

Having her powers dismissed casually by Wildfire, Dreamy will begin to rethink her place in the team. Her time in Matter Eater's miracle machine powered mind has also altered her views. Not least because they failed to help him.

Wildfire's anti energy blast has altered his energy powers somewhat. He will find that he can retain a sort of form, eerily similar to the Omega creature at times of anger? He's will also become a conduit to an Anti-Matter universe through his new form.

Brainy may have wanted to destroy our universe, but he wasn't going to recreate a new one to live in alone. In his Coluan laboratory, there is movement in a human sized, fluid filled container. Who is Laurel Gand?

Incidentally, I thought that Jeckie and Dawnstar had some good moments in these issues.
At the end of 252 we have:-

A Legion with no HQ (blown up by Wildfire & Omega)

The UP has all but collapsed economically from it's war against the Khunds. It's really fraying at the edges and a number of Legion missions will be on fringe worlds against enemies looking to capitalise on UPs weaknesses.


Some random thoughts on the following issues:-

RJ Brande is bankrupt and can't support the Legion. The sadness over the loss of Reep (did he know he was the father at this point?) and Brainy's treachery have affected him badly.

The Legion's last cruiser is destroyed, as Dirk Morgna saves the sun from the Resource Raiders. Morgna's powers star to flare on and off after this, following on from the old Adventure issue. Morgna is hailed as a hero on Earth, which he rather enjoys.

We find that the UP are not willing to support the Legion in it's current form. Back in 251 Wildfire hinted that the UP were already looking to ask the Legion to leave the solar system.

Colossal Boy is killed by Mist Master, with the Super Assassins living up to their name; Light Lass is badly injured by Blok. He punches her through a wall; Timberwolf is injured and thrown out of a building by Silver Slasher; Phantom Girl is put into a coma by Neutrax while Ultra Boy is badly beaten by Titania.

Brande tells the team about his bankruptcy. Superboy, trying to warn Dream Girl, is attacked and defeated at Legion HQ. The Assassins boast that they will hunt and kill the other Legionnaires.

With 8 Legionnaires on Brande's World, Dream Girl contacts the Subs (of whom she was once a member)and plans to take the offensive. A well trained Subs team defeat the Assassins.
Timberwolf, already bitter about Ayla's injuries and the UPs lack of support, wants to proactively hunt down the Dark Man behind the assassins. He's incensed when Mist Master & Lazon escape captivity and quits the Legion to be a Lone Wolf once more.

The team worry about Ultra Boy's reaction when he finds out Phantom Girl is still in a coma.
Supergirl visits the 30th Century. Distraught at Brainy's condition, she returns home seemingly permanently.

Night Girl & Polar Boy are offered membership but decide reluctantly to stay with their friends as the groups help rebuild Earth. Ultra Boy won't leave Tinya's bedside and takes a leave of absence.

With Brainy & Cham no longer around, it's Shrinking Violet who leads the Espionage Squad's investigation into Brande's missing fortune.

In Brainy's absence there's pressure on Dirk to take responsibility for the Legion's science. He's feeling the stress (always a bad sign), and with his powers fluctuating takes up EarthGov's offer to be planetary champion, following saving the destruction of the sun. He's still a Legionnaire, but won't be straying too far from a rebuilding Earth.

Matter Eater Lad begins to distort the reality around him. We get glimpses of other Legion worlds. Eventually the Controllers step in. With their usual diplomacy, they look to cauterise the Earth. The Legion try to reach Brainy but he's beyond help at this point. Instead they turn to another, one with great knowledge of the Controllers: Universo.

At the end of this adventure Rond Vidar would join the Legion, possibly getting Brainy's force field technology (causing a later conflict with the Coluans), or possibly some Controller derived powers.

Laurel Gand appears. Brainy's perfect companion.

The Legion looks wider to support the crises on numerous UP worlds. The UP has begun to fray at the edges as economies shrink. A few new factions look to exploit fringe worlds. Colonists are devoured by the Spider Guild descendants etc.

Power Boy and Laurel Kent join. Shadow Kid returns to Talok as a planetary champion.

The UP look to the Legion to send heroes to help the fringe worlds. With transportation routes battered by the Khund War and the economy, a group leave on secondment. Also travelling with them is RJ Brande. The group comprises of the Subs, who now join the Legion, Dream Girl who has had a taste for leadership when facing the Assassins and Star Boy. Dawnstar will operate between both groups if needed. It's a new era for the Legion and both Sun Boy and Tyroc were important in the discussions with the UP.

The Dark Man's influence begins to affect the UP.

Laurel Gand joins while she works to cure Brainy. She and Rond will grow closer during this time.

Shady takes a now weakened Mon El back to Daxam, where they uncover some nasty eugenics cults.

The Legion try to track down the Dark Man, as Timberwolf seems to have vanished. They recruit Blok, who turns out to be a traitor. Blok is destroyed by Timberwolf.

Ultra Boy takes Tinya back to her homeworld and finds a cure. He tried Neutrax, but he was badly hurt when facing the Subs, and is even more bitter. the Legion using Superboy's phantom zone technology rescue Tinya and Jo.

In the battle against the Dark Man, only Brainy can match Tharok's intellect. Brainy escapes after the confrontation and could pose an even bigger threat to the UP. A torn Laurel Gand opts to stay with the Legion and track him down.

That's pretty close to my own views, except that I will freely admit to taking pleasure in killing and maiming characters I dislike -- Cosmic Boy cheated on Night Girl and hit Light Lass, so I'm happy to kill him and I hope he burns in hell. I don't think that makes me a bad person, just a bitter and twisted one who channels all the dark stuff into her writing so that she may remain moral and balanced in day-to-day life.

Regarding some of the things that Set said, I think the trick is to know just how far to push the envelope, something that the writers and editors at DC started losing sight of ten years ago and went completely off the rails with Blackest Night. Humor helps a lot, too -- L.E.G.I.O.N. had a lot of brutal and gruesome scenes, but thanks to Alan Grant, a lot of them were darkly hilarious. Of course, your mileage may vary.

And regarding Thoth and EDEs ideas, I don't completely agree with them but I recognize their validity and I appreciate the contributions to this thread. I look forward to EDE elaborating.