Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH 42 ~~~SPOILERS!!!!

Atom Girl's name, costume, and hairdo have GOT to go.

Her name's Shrinking Violet, dammit. And her anti-gravity hair is awful, as is her costume.


I too am not wild about the art but thought it was a good, densely written story. I too miss Sun Boy and Dream Girl. And Element Lad and Triplicate Girl. And Tenzil can come back any time.

luv the issue as well. finally got Manapul's costumes in play! great to see them. my only gripe with the new creative team in general is the colorist, JD Smith. too watercolory and blotty and inconsistent. I think DC should bring in Moose Baumann or the Hories to take over the title, both can do great sci-fi. in terms of characters to bring in, Drake Burroughs, maybe Tenzil Kem. both had tremendous presence during the Bedard/Calero run. aesthetic-wise, I hope Dream Boy and Element Lad get new unis. Jan Arrah in a green/white scheme doesnt work for me, maybe green/yellow. Star Boy already has a white cape, dont need another one. I want to Sun Boy's and Cosmic Boy's too. plus, too many ppl in the team have a black/white scheme. OK, I'm done ranting.

sorry. freudian slip. I want to SEE Sun Boy's and Cosmic Boy's UNIS too. dont want the message to be read in a wrong context. NOW I'm done!

no they need to go back to what they had originally for sunboy that was the perfect costume for him

Another well-written issue, a very good read after reading the convoluted Final Crisis #1 immeadiately before...

I liked Ultra Boys very powerful performance - yes, he can do all this! - and his snappy behavior towards Imra, even though I still hope he will get his Tinya in the end... it's destiny...

Shooter still tries to tell a story without too many question marks. Unlike the oh-so-hot Grant Morisson in FC, he give us a reason for everything: Why there are new uniforms, why the politics hate the Legion and so on. I like that cause I hate constantly rereading captions desperately searching for the deeper meaning in them...

So yes, still like Shooters stint and hope we will be getting a little mote of it. I'm starting to get really interested in who is behind these Destoyer ducks...

Great continuing story. I like the way the alien destroyer plot is unfolding; we learn something more about them each issue, just as do the legionnaires. It extends the story through multiple issues without being repetitive.

I had to look it up after suspecting it, but Ta Rshish/Tarshish was associated with Jonah in the biblical story.

Legionnaires with weapons - that hasn't been seen too often in their history. Atom Girl's blasters are a fixture; now Saturn Girl carries a gun. Is this to compensate for low physical power levels? In that case, Invisible Kid should have one, too.

Brainy is improving, personality-wise, relative to Waid's Vril-like version. I'm glad that Shooter didn't use some event like a break-down to change his personality; he just shaved off some of the coldness and distance. No explanations needed. Still, Lightning Lad should have called him on that "I've got a feeling" business when they were examining the data on the alien destroyers. The vanity aspect of Brainy's character - admiring himself in his new uniform - is new, although we got a hint of it in an earlier 3boot issue, when he was dreaming of being much more powerful. It seems to me that, in the past versions, he would have been plenty vain about his mental abilities but shown total disregard for anything physical.

Popoff is an interesting opponent for the Legion. Devious, hiding behind bureaucracy; his power is the power of the state, not a physical or mental power which the legionnaires must confront. It seems to me that they are fairly naive with respect to this sort of power, although Saturn Girl and Brainiac 5 appear to have a better appreciation for its dangers.

Lon Norg struck me as a jerk of a father. Lyle may indeed be happy to be reconciled with him (or was that a tear shed because he knew he would betray him?) but he certainly was anxious to get away from Lon's control and judgement.

Saturn Girl's personality: she is still the strong-willed, determined Imra that I have admired, although the "great kisser" comment struck a false note with me. In #41, I took her bedroom talk with Garth to be teasing and sarcastic rather than serious. It also seemed logical that she would regard Ultra Boy as a macho jerk. I would have had her perhaps enjoy the kiss but not admit it to herself....

Regarding the alien destroyers, Brainy claims that at a certain level, life and lifelike tech blur. So what's the difference? The legionnaires have been dispatching these things with fervor - so have they been killing them, or destroying machines?

Loved Star Boy's new starfield cape! It has displaced the cape worn by the Prime Councilor of Vash as the best Legion cape.

I feel that would have helped the scene a bit.

Mystery Lad's pointing out in his Calling the Roll that there similarily was smoochage between Jo and Imra in Legion Lost. But back then they were both mutually initiating the kiss, and the writing did acknowledge there being a guilt component, what with them being in other relationships and all. I bought that scene as a character moment, however soap-opera-y the whole love quadrangle the two kissers were part of might have turned out.

The issue 42 kiss redux on the other hand really fails to make me feel any empathy for the characters - quite the opposite, what with their simple-minded, gender-clichéed actions. Can't we leave that whole "Overwhelm her with your manliness, she'll LOVE it!" stuff back in the fifties, where it can maybe keep company to "She's hysterical, slap her out of it" and its ilk?

That old chestnut where there's a guy planting one on a girl (never the other way round - wouldn't have anyone think that she's loose with her affections, oh no) with the lame, responsibility-absolving excuse that he's kind of out of it at the moment*, and is then rewarded with his actions being a surefire way to her heart (or at least her knickers) really, really has overstayed its welcome. Jo's presented as cool here - when he flies off, all determined to wreak further havoc on the enemy, all irresistably powerful, the reader's probably supposed to admiringly go "DAMN, what a MAN!" alongside Imra (whether you find him as sexually alluring as she does is left up to you, I guess).

*and why these exuses? Being temporarily brain-addled isn't actually absolving Forceful Snogger Lad of anything - after all, it's not as if he's apologizing afterwards, just in case his attentions were unwanted.

I kinda don't feel the Garth-Imra relationship if she's that easily influenced by whoever is most "manly".

Lyle and his father making up that fast struck a false note with me - much too easy after how disastrous their relationship was portrayed before (I took Lyle's tear at face value - father and son happily reunited).

Their scene together also fails to reconcile the self-isolating nature of the "normal" UP citizens who still have to get used to face-to-face contact with Dad's elation that his son is on the best way to becoming a "real man": all manly heroics and girls (what's next, captain of a sports team?), "healthy boy interests" when compared to being a nerdling who locks himself in to play with his petri dishes. It's kinda puzzling that Dad should be so keen on that stuff when the civilisation-wide ideal has before de facto always been to lock yourself in with your petri dishes.

As for the emphasis being so much on the word "girl", as has been mentioned upthread - although it amuses me to think of Lon Norg tearing his hair out while Lyle's tearing around the block with ever-new boyfriends ("where will the grandchildren come from, quiet, disapproving-looking wife of mine?") I feel as if that "girl"-comment wasn't supposed to either indicate that Lyle's been going for guys so far, nor an attempt to frantically assure that, no, no, this boy isn't gay, in fact he's the straightest of the straight. To me it felt more like even the mere idea of homosexuality isn't considered a possibility, simply doesn't exist in a future scenario where your success-level as a boy/man depends to a great degree on your non-nerdiness, your ability to go ape-shit on your enemies and your kissing the girls.

3boot - suddenly it's the 31st century partially stuck in the sixties.

That said, I must proclaim my love for Atom Girl's hair. It's the hairiest; even more beautiful than all the gorgeously rendered fight scenes in this issue. I aspire to once have hair as fantastic as hers.

I haven't read this issue yet, but I understand IG's response to the simplistic emotional scenes (if they play out as described.)

Lyle hasn't been shown to have 'gay' interests this boot (his crush on Kara) but Dad's comments would make it seem to be an issue on his mind.

The reality though seems to be that homosexuality, like other minority lifestyles/types,
is up and down in cultures. Or rather, in or out.
This whole Legion era seems to be intolerent of anything different or challenging. They don't even like their children!
Sad.

The whole interested in girls thing didn't strike me at all as a gay thing. I thought his dad was just happy that Lyle was expressing interest in something that wasn't a test tube or research computer, given that Lyle has spent his youth being a science prodigy.

Lon Norg has shown growth from that first scene where he hit Lyle. Being confronted with the notion that he'd gotten his job because of meddling from the supervillain in the first WaK arc, and then being called in for favors by his son at various other points, this feels like something that has been occuring in the background ever since that first scene with him hitting his son. It's completely organic to the story, and the hitting incident, from both Lyle, Lon and 'mom's' reaction to it, was clearly a shocking moment for all of them.

Heck, I think it would have been unrealistic, after all that they've been through, for Lon Norg *not* to have changed his views some. Why, after all, would he continue to help his son behind the scenes, if he was still stuck in that single moment of anger we saw three years ago and that we haven't seen since?

On the other hand, it might be interesting to find out that Lon getting his son sprung had some consequences and he's going to have to pay an ugly price for that...

As for the Imra / Jo kiss thing, it didn't strike me as anything worse than the Yera / Dirk kiss in Action. A fun moment, not some sort of political statement about gender roles.

Yes, that was what I was trying to say in my run-on-sentency way: dad is simply damn happy that his boy is developing “healthy alternatives” to his nerdy shut-in ways. Even if there was an odd emphasis on “girls” in Lon’s “Finally! My son is dating a GIRL!” I don’t think that it was put in there to throw anybody off the idea that Lyle might be gay, because in this very conventional “injustice-fighting, dating-minded son-to-be-proud-of”-scenario there simply is no place for any potential homosexuality.

Obviously I didn’t bring across what I meant.

Even with that sound reasoning I don’t feel Lon’s great redemption, it is simply too off-panel for me. On the other hand I sure as hell wouldn’t want his development to be given the time it needs to be emotionally believable - then we’d have The Legion of Super-Heroes and Lon Norg’s Slow Ascent to Good Fatherhood, and a Legionnaire’s random parent certainly isn’t interesting enough to warrant such extensive attention. Can’t they just drop that guy, preferably on his blocky head?

Aha, finally found that scene! And boy, is it ever a bummer.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5248706.html

Hey, she really doesn’t want to kiss that guy, so let’s force her! After all, it’s hilarious when one of the participating parties finds a sexual act/an act of intimacy/something which should be fun repulsive.

What on earth is the intention behind such a scene? Pandering to the belief that women – all of them uninterested in sex – are unfairly hoarding all this delicious sexing potential and the guys – all horn dogs – have to swindle or trick them out of it? Can’t it simply be two people kissing because they both want to kiss?

I really don’t think that the writers are trying to make a political statement. I don’t think they’re trying to say “Hey! Girls back in the kitchen!” But I do think that when they’re dealing with gender interaction they’re serving up clichéd writing – hell, in the case of the Action Legion, I think their stereotyping flat-out sucks.

Be it S&M Garth and Imra, Imra and Jo, or Yera and Dirk – I bet you can’t find these scenarios in a main-stream comic with the roles reversed.

In the first case, main stream comic logic would dictate that Garth being dominated would equal him being "unmanly". In the second case, well, it would make Imra a “hussy”, and in the third case the kissing approach wouldn’t be an appropriate way to wake a girl, because, hey, girls don’t like that kind of stuff as much as guys do – but at least the guy wouldn’t be repulsed, because kissing girls would be right up his alley. Next time, take a first aid kit with you instead, Brainy, you stupid…

You never get scenarios such as these the other way around, and I, for one, am tired of seeing these impressive feats of stereotyping played out again, and again, and again.

I actually find the most blatant stereotyping to be of Ultra Boy. He's a (presumably) petty criminal, gang member, ergo thick in the head... this portrayal has persisted for several years and it's a bit of a disappointment after the clever and devoted Jo Nah we saw in 5YL. The kissing scene with Saturn Girl in this issue is more of a stereotype of him than of her.

The Yera-Dirk thing was sort of a roll-eyes event and didn't make a lot of sense - unless it was a practical joke of Brainy's, which seems even less likely....

In the 3boot, we've had a mix of gender interaction scenes - the innocence of Triplicate Girl on her first date(s) with boys, the fumbling Element Lad, their ensuing relationship, which just seems to involve hanging out together; Karate Kid's winsome idealization of Phantom Girl, her romance-comic break-up with what's-his-name back on Bgtzl. At the other end of the spectrum are Jeckie & Brin in bed together, with references to a well-established relationship; Ayla's pursuit of no-night-sleeping-alone, Tasmia's triangle with Val and Jo, and Imra & Garth's bedroom talk. A lot more variety than in the past, although the absence of any gay/lesbian couple seems odd.

Haven't had time to read the other posts on this issue. (haven't had time to post anything either)

I enjoyed it. Really like the new costumes. Liked the focus on Ultra Boy. He's my fave member and I think one of the Legion's most popular members. Superwho?

Shooter and fjm are pretty dynamic. Like to see Saturn Girl use a gun against the monsters.

Certainly there’s variety in the gender interactions in the 3boot as a whole – when I said that the 3boot’s suddenly partially stuck in the sixties, I meant that the 3boot’s relationships have a certain bend to them after Shooter starting to write it. I didn’t make that clear, sorry. (Waid-3boot and Shooter-3boot feel like two different series to me, anyway, with only the most basic facts of character and plot transported over).

Unfortunately I don’t really know much of 5YL Ultra Boy. I can only compare 3boot Jo with reboot Jo. The latter was sometimes portrayed as kind of a doofus, but at least he wasn’t a doofus so terribly full of himself. As for 3boot Jo, well – at least he’s consistent: kind of an unlikable ass during Waid, still an unlikable ass now (I’m not actually opposed to shaking up Waid’s characterisation. I like Shooter’s Action Imra much better than Waid’s relative cipher; only her unfortunate romantic inclinations sadden me.)

The thing that annoys me most about Shooter’s Jo, though, isn’t even that’s he’s written as a stupid, insensitive thug, but that the writing seems to always indulge him in or reward him for his brainless macho stick. Waid’s Jo, for example, was taken down a peg after all his bragging during the date with one of the Trips – the unbelievable allure he probably thought he had didn’t exactly “get him the girl”.

The way Shooter’s Jo seems to be presented, on the other hand, is all “Whee! Our hero! Kissing and killing left and right!” Only when I see this Jo flying directly at the reader in all his manful glory, I… well, let’s say I’m not reacting to him in the way that was probably intended.

Addendum to clarify: With that I really didn’t mean I would like to see these scenarios played out with the genders reversed – this wouldn’t make anything better at all. At least one character would always ends up looking pretty damn bad.

LOL. Don't let Jo read that or he'll try turning his charms on you (as in you don't really mean that, baby!).

Good point about Waid's version of Jo. He was also suffering some power control problems which were never definitely resolved, but which served, in one story at least, to take the edge off his ego.

I don't find too much different between Waid Jo and Shooter Jo. Yes, Waid Jo had that rough patch where Val helped him out. However, Waid Jo didn't seem like the kind of character who would let that event instill any sort of permanent humility.

Jo is, more than anyone else, the poster child of the Legion without a Superboy. In the original Legion, Jo was a kid from the wrong side of the tracks who got powers kind of like the lengendary Superboy, and then got to hang out with that Superboy, whose good example helped Jo discover his inner nobility and made him a responsible member and leader of the Legion.

In the 3boot, Jo is the BMOC and cock of the walk, and there's no Superboy there to teach him some humility. It would have been GREAT to have used SuperGIRL for that, but the Waid Supergirl/LSH was mostly a colossal waste of time. Anyway, Jo is the unchallenged big gun of the Legion, a kid totally intoxicated with his superpowers and the life of fun his position affords him. The good news is, the comeuppance he deserves still awaits him in the future, and I hope I get to see it.

Perhaps I am of the wrong preference to have noticed it, but Jo's attitude, referred to multiple times as 'manly' struck me as kinda immature, and deliberately portrayed as such.

Or is that the new definition of 'manly?'

But baby does really mean it.

Oh yes, that reminds me of the time when Karate Kid, Shady and Supergirl were mollycoddling him, so that he wouldn't feel outclassed by the latter. You're right, Waid didn't undermine Jo's attitude consistently, either.

Why should preference play any part in this? I find Jo's behaviour immature, too, as well as unlikable, but the - subjective - impression I got from the revamped 3boot's art and storytelling so far was the complete opposite of yours, namely that I was supposed to find his behaviour "cool" in that "women love him, men want to be him" way. Maybe that wasn't the intention at all - maybe his behaviour will actually be acknowledged as immature (as it was under Waid, for example), and maybe he'll get some kind of comeuppance. Then I'll totes take back what I said.

And when I was using "manly" I didn't mean to describe any realistic form of manliness with that word. As you can see I did put "manly" or "real man" and the like into quotes before, because that usually indicates that the usual statement connected with those words isn't the one I'm going for at that moment. With "manly" I meant to describe what I feel the writing's serving up for Jo right now - i.e. outdated bear-wrangler macho standards which some people waaaay back once took for the only proper way a man ought to behave.

Last night I re-read this issue before going to sleep. I'm also currently reading Alastair Reynold's "Revelation Space." It finally occurred to me, then, what the Legion "destroyers" are up to--they're destroying sentient life, technologically advanced life forms. The destroyer zapped the flower but didn't vaporize it because the flower isn't a sentient, technologically advanced creature (not yet, anyway). It also explains the destroyer's ability to track and attack Chameleon even though he looks like a non-sentient animal--they have a sentience sense.

I got the impression it failed to kill the flower for some other reason. It reminded me of the plants that could survive in the wasteland in the Final Fantasy movie.

Something else else about that plant resisted the life eradicators weapons, at first.

About the Destroyer and the Flower, remember Popoff said that one of 'his' team was also on Rimbor?

Maybe the flower is a powered-up Fruit Boy? Or Spy?

I always found Jo's portrayal to be flat and uninteresting in all of the boots, except for DOA's. He was very real and compelling in that story arc.
And when he and Imra kissed it not only made perfect sense but was pretty thrilling and sexy, too!
There really hasn't been much of true interest since, I think.
Oh well.

Oh, yeah. COuldn't figure out where that was going. I feel sad now.

Issue was fast-paced for me, a lot of story.


One of the best choreographed fight sequences I recall in a comic and I don't remember being this enthralled with the one-liners since DNA.

LOVE Shooter's and Manipul's take on Cham. Again, just makes sense. He's been nude all these years and no-one said a word. I love the future.

Very creative uses of Saturn Girl's powers.

Another direction that has me puzzling is the take on I-kid. Was he tearing up because his Dad shows some love or because of his Dad's comment about girls? I-kid is definitely enthralled with Giselle but at the same time he could have been tearing up because he's hiding feelings,... Shooter playing with fandom? I like it. We deserve a spanking on occasion. We'll probably find I-Kid is actually in love with Cham.

Much less future slang, anyone else notice?


.

I did not notice until you pointed it out, and gosh, is it not missed!

In reference to Invisible Kid and his dad's comments about girls - it strikes me that Lyle is a young Legionnaire (mid teens) and probably has not dated before, male or female. I think it was dad's observation that Lyle had grown up and he viewed him as more of a young adult now than a kid. It seemed a natural way of a father trying to learn something about his growing kid by throwing leading questions at him like that.