I don't really have a whole helluvalot to add to what's already been said. Like everyone has said, the Miracle Machine was a huge cheat from what was an impressively-crafted threat (one which again had a touch of that brilliant subtext I've praised young Shooter for).
The only thing I can offer in Shooter's defense is that I think he was planning on revisiting the Miracle Machine in a later story and probably had an awesome idea for a story to pay it off. I say this because he'd already shown more sophisticated plotting and world-building than anything the strip had ever seen to date (with the lone exception of the death and return of Lightning Lad years earlier). But the strip's run as Adventure Comics' stars and Shooter's as scripter was only a year or less from concluding, so it's understandable that he wouldn't get to follow up on everything he might have wanted to. And years later, his short return on "Superboy starring...." didn't allow for too many follow-ups. Maybe by then, he'd either forgotten about the MM or dismissed it as silly.
I've never read the story in which Tenzil eats the MM, presumably also involving Omega if I'm reading various comments correctly. It sounds like Starlin didn't exactly make everyone glad he had picked up that old nugget. However, the continuity nut inside me IS happy that it WAS followed up in some way when so many throwaway concepts of the Silver Age and beyond (not just Legion-related) never show up again. In fact with all the Legion fans who would eventually write the book, Legion apocrypha has more often than most other comics' apocrypha shown up again in some way, shape or form--just one of the many things I love about Legion fandom!
There IS a lot of Val shown here. It's disappointing that his sensei appears to embody the stereotypes, but we learn that Val is an orphan and for some reason doesn't want to share that fact with his fellow Legionnaires. It makes me curious as to whether Val's solo series followed up on this at all. I've never heard great things about it, so I've always assumed it was poorly done.
That's all I have to say about that.
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Thereafter please start the Archive #8 thread, as this ongoing duty has henceforth become your honor...and your burden!
I shall do so today or tomorrow--for Paladin is a man of honor! (unlike certain "legendary" types... )
We also urgently require Legion Tracker to chime in on Adventure 367.
Sorry I'm late. I really enjoyed reading the excellent comments already offered and, like Lardy claimed, i don't have much more to contribute.
In this story I loved seeing the Legionnaires rewarded with so many toys! I bet Mr. Shooter had a blast imagining the architecture, weapons, and technology he wanted to give his happy heroes. I remember as a kid how much fun it was to read the first part of this issue.
While the Miracle Machine is problematic as a story device, it reflects an extrapolation-to-the-extreme of the scientific optimism of the era. We can go to the moon! A thousand years from now, anything is possible! It also is a metaphor for the nuclear mindset of the 1960s, when we were very aware that earth-shattering power could be released with not much more than a thought.
The art was very effective. For example, in two side-by-side panels we see the humor of Legionnaires looking up at Goliath-sized guns, and then the solemnity of an immense memorial statue of Ferro Lad looking down at the Legionnaires. While the ejector seats in the Control Room were kind of silly (but really, how could Shooter pass up that idea?), the panel of Brainy, Karate Kid, and Sun Boy being shot through the roof toward the reader was just fun to see. And then, as has already been noted, there's the great page of the "alien hordes" being hurled off the earth.
I always love seeing the personal lives of the Legionnaires, and Val's story within this story builds empathy for this character, both in his "family" story and through his heroic efforts to protect his teacher and his home.
"Everything about this is going to feel different." (Saturn Girl, Legion of Super-Heroes #1)
Sorry I'm late. I really enjoyed reading the excellent comments already offered and, like Lardy claimed, i don't have much more to contribute.
Even as I wrote that bit of preface in my last post, I was thinking, "gee, I wonder if I'll actually say more than I think I will yet again?" And sure enough....
In the end I didn't feel like editing that line out--or ending it with another, "Garsh! I had more to say than I thought! Lollerblades!"--if only so someone might call me out on it!
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In this story I loved seeing the Legionnaires rewarded with so many toys! I bet Mr. Shooter had a blast imagining the architecture, weapons, and technology he wanted to give his happy heroes. I remember as a kid how much fun it was to read the first part of this issue.
It was all kinda fun and Silver Age-y! Kind of a reminder that the book WAS actually still in the SA (like the recent Super-Pets return), even as we had been seeing all kinds of evidence that the Legion was progressing beyond the SA box.
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While the Miracle Machine is problematic as a story device, it reflects an extrapolation-to-the-extreme of the scientific optimism of the era. We can go to the moon! A thousand years from now, anything is possible! It also is a metaphor for the nuclear mindset of the 1960s, when we were very aware that earth-shattering power could be released with not much more than a thought.
Hm. Another bit of young Shooter's trademark subtext that went over my head--love it!
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The art was very effective. For example, in two side-by-side panels we see the humor of Legionnaires looking up at Goliath-sized guns, and then the solemnity of an immense memorial statue of Ferro Lad looking down at the Legionnaires.
I know the statue struck me here as being represented as much larger than I ever remember seeing it depicted. Could be because Andrew was the only Legionnaire to memorialize at the time. As the bodies later piled up, making them smaller became necessary. I'll be curious to see, though, if the statue reappears and the scale remains the same while his is the sole memorial.
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While the ejector seats in the Control Room were kind of silly (but really, how could Shooter pass up that idea?), the panel of Brainy, Karate Kid, and Sun Boy being shot through the roof toward the reader was just fun to see. And then, as has already been noted, there's the great page of the "alien hordes" being hurled off the earth.
Yeah, that was silly but also fun! Again, I'm curious to see if the ejector seats will ever be referenced again--and used to launch the Legion into action! (Not holding my breath! )
BTW, I forgot to mention earlier that I was surprised to see this iteration of Legion HQ (my favorite) debuted so early. Though I'd read this story before, I'd forgotten. In any case I'd subliminally associated the new HQ firmly with the Bronze Age. I think if someone had asked me out of the blue when the second HQ first appeared, I would've guessed during the Cockrum or Grell years.
I guess this is just further evidence that the Legion strip was in many ways ahead of its time among DC books not only as far as more sophisticated storytelling but for presenting real and lasting changes.
Sorry I'm late. I really enjoyed reading the excellent comments already offered and, like Lardy claimed, i don't have much more to contribute.
Even as I wrote that bit of preface in my last post, I was thinking, "gee, I wonder if I'll actually say more than I think I will yet again?" And sure enough....
And then after calling you out, I wrote just about as much as you did.
"Everything about this is going to feel different." (Saturn Girl, Legion of Super-Heroes #1)
Again, I'm curious to see if the ejector seats will ever be referenced again--and used to launch the Legion into action! (Not holding my breath! )
In #371, if you look closely at the background as Gim leaves the HQ you'll see two cleaners finish removing 4 legion applicants. Someone forgot to open the roof when showing off the ejector seats.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
The only thing I can offer in Shooter's defense is that I think he was planning on revisiting the Miracle Machine in a later story and probably had an awesome idea for a story to pay it off. I say this because he'd already shown more sophisticated plotting and world-building than anything the strip had ever seen to date (with the lone exception of the death and return of Lightning Lad years earlier). But the strip's run as Adventure Comics' stars and Shooter's as scripter was only a year or less from concluding, so it's understandable that he wouldn't get to follow up on everything he might have wanted to. And years later, his short return on "Superboy starring...." didn't allow for too many follow-ups. Maybe by then, he'd either forgotten about the MM or dismissed it as silly.
Good point, Lardy. That had never occured to me before. Maybe in some alternate universe, Adventure 400 had the spectacular payoff to the Miracle Machine subplot.
While the Miracle Machine is problematic as a story device, it reflects an extrapolation-to-the-extreme of the scientific optimism of the era. We can go to the moon! A thousand years from now, anything is possible! It also is a metaphor for the nuclear mindset of the 1960s, when we were very aware that earth-shattering power could be released with not much more than a thought.
Well said. I chalk my own cynicism up to being brought up in times of the media and government conspiring to make us stop dreaming. (Paranoid, moi?)
BTW, I forgot to mention earlier that I was surprised to see this iteration of Legion HQ (my favorite) debuted so early. Though I'd read this story before, I'd forgotten. In any case I'd subliminally associated the new HQ firmly with the Bronze Age. I think if someone had asked me out of the blue when the second HQ first appeared, I would've guessed during the Cockrum or Grell years.
I guess this is just further evidence that the Legion strip was in many ways ahead of its time among DC books not only as far as more sophisticated storytelling but for presenting real and lasting changes.
Reading this thread inspired me to set my local CBS hunting for Archives 7& 8. I first read those stories as a kid and they are the source of a lifetime love of the Legion The store texted me today to say they'd found #7. Thank you Legion World for the early Christmas present. Without you this would never have happened. Hopefully they'll track down #8 too.
Well if Mort told Jim Shooter to write Legion of Super-Pets It might be kind of hard to get a Shooter feel out of it. OTOH you have good point & unlike the question about whether Siegel or Hamilton wrote Adventure 340-41 some one could ask Jim Shooter.
If I am remembering anywhere close to correctly, I seem to recall an interview Shooter gave long ago where he said Mort specifically wanted a Super Pets story for that issue. Shooter just wasn't feeling it, rushed for time due to school, or whatever and ended up basically "phoning it in" and ENB assisted in some fashion.
This was a clunker of a story for me and rather painful for me to read. The weak art did not help, but one bright spot was Shooter's layouts. My first exposure to the Super Pets was the Luck Lords reprint in SLSH #208 (also my first legion comic ever). I liked their portrayal in that story as pets who just happened to have super powers and not as "funny animal" types. Plus I liked Krypto.
Adv 364 reads more to me like a fight between the Legion and Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew or like something from the mind of Grant Morrison gone wild. The Pets thought balloons and the Legion/Pets all being connected telepathically was a bit much. And Proty II was so clearly not a pet. At least this gave material to Levitz/Giffen in the early 80's for the Protean sentient movement.
But was really really out there was the whole Comet/Biron thing. Back to the Luck Lords story, I thought it was cool that Supergirl had a horse as a (super) pet. But then to find out the horse was a centaur who had the hots for Kara and could sometimes turn human temporarily. Shaking head. But then to go even further and have Comet turn human and join up with the Legion as Biron. Way too out there. The bizarre levels to this story probably ended up inadvertently being the death-knell for more Super Pets appearances.
Also if you had someone not in the know read this issue and then the next story arc (Fatal Five / Shadow Lass) without seeing the creator credits, I bet few would say both issues were by the same writer.
^How could I forget to mention the Curt Swan/George Klein art (with help on the layouts by Shooter)?? It's exquisite, though it's also bittersweet in that Klein would not stick around much longer, as DC laid off many on its longtime writers and artists. Klein would land at Marvel, where he'd have a short but wonderful run on Avengers over John Buscema's pencils before dying in 1969.
Some people think that "Swanderson" was the best, but I personally prefer Swan when inked by Klein.Plus add in Shooter's layouts and it's perfection.
Been out of the loop again, but if I may backtrack a few issues, I've been wondering just lately where were the Subs in issues 359 and 360 when the LSH was on the run? Were they brainwashed along with everyone else on Earth, or were they in jail, or off planet or what? It would've been nice if some reference to them had been made, but I suppose since young Shooter did manage to include every single Legionnaire in the story I guess he can be excused for omitting the Subs.
This is one beef I have with many of Shooter's big crisis stories, where he does hand waving to eliminate a number of Legionnaires from the story - either through a convoluted side bit (mission to dimension QK-51 for example) or no explanation at all and not even a bit of dialogue to explain why the Subs and/or allies are not available for the crisis of the moment.
I guess it can be challenging reading some of these Adventure stories and trying to picture what real world tech existed (or did not) back then. Plus between then and now have been tons of Star Trek, Star Wars, and other science-fiction shows/movies where traveling across space quickly, teleporting, etc was no big deal. Shooter's thing at the time of his Adventure stories seemed to be more so real world science than say being a futurist (one thing that Giffen was defintely very skilled in the early 80's) and apparently never watched the Jetsons.
I guess the alternative to Shooter's style here would be the ENB kitchen sink style, which can be a bit of overkill. Eventually Levitz would come along and get the character placement just right.
- the best introduction of a Legionnaire thus far, and perhaps ever. Shadow Lass is magnificent from day one and she instantly becomes a favorite of mind because of this intro. She's badass in a way only Imra is so far, but she is able to be more physically aggressive. She has a "warrior princess" vibe, but it's actually much better than that: she doesn't need to be a princess; she's a planetary champion.
Plus, her visual is fantastic. Whoever made the decision to give her the blue hue made the right call, despite contradicting the future LSH canon. Even better is that this story does not even give a nod to that story--other than the name and look, Shady stands totally on her own.
In part 2, the scene where Shady raises her hand and swears the Legion oath, knowing that all of them may--and probably will-- die, yet she'll do it as a Legionnaire, is one of THE great moments in Legion history.
We also see her feisty chemistry with Brainy, which I've often wished would be explored more.
And of course, it's Shady who turns the tide when all the boys are overpowered by their various sparring partners at the end of the story. It's a fitting, great way to end the story and give Shady a proper intro--other writers should take note.
In the second half, Swan opens the story up particularly strong. The army attacking the Legionnaires is explosive, and then a few pages later his depiction of Validus looming menacingly over the other four is awesome, especially with the diagonal viewpoint.
It's also noteworthy that Neal Adams takes over here as cover artist, as he did for all the Superman titles--another attempt by DC to stop declining sales and losing marketshare to Marvel. His cover for Adv #365 is okay, but the cover for #366 is awesome.
This ranks for me among my absolute favorite LSH stories of all time.
Shadow Lass is one of my favorite Legionnaires (btw does anyone know when they started to be referred to as Legionnaires in-story and not "the super heroes"?). I remember reading a reprint of this story (in a digest I think?) and like others have said loving how bad ass Tasmia was here.
In the nit pick category, it seems like the task of infiltrating Talok VIII would have been a perfect assignment for the Legion Espionage Squad. So it would have been nice to have had some brief dialogue explaining why they were unavailable to assist (some goes for part 2 on why the Subs were not around to help fight the F5 on Earth).
Speaking to the art, I just wanted to mention how horrible the color and art reproduction is in Legion Archives 7. The fine line Swan/Klein comes off as sketchy and the Neal Adams covers just look terrible compared to the real deal.
- Swan and Shooter messed up the splash page of Validus attacking Metropolis. It's not terrible, but it's far from great.
Overall, the second Legion/Fatal Five battle comes up just short of the iconic first battle. But the story introduces Shadow Lass, and the Legion will never be the same (and will someone please explain to me why the pre-Adventure 350 Legionnaires are supposed to be so much more important than the post-Adventure 350 ones, including Shadow Lass??)
Was this issue the first instance in a Legion story of a non-splash full page panel? (the Validus attacking panel)
I didn't know there were pre-Adv350 / post Adv350 factions. I thought there was just a pro-Adventure-era faction that championed those characters over the ones added during Cockrum/Grell and forward (noticeably in 5YL)
^How could I forget to mention the Curt Swan/George Klein art (with help on the layouts by Shooter)?? It's exquisite, though it's also bittersweet in that Klein would not stick around much longer, as DC laid off many on its longtime writers and artists. Klein would land at Marvel, where he'd have a short but wonderful run on Avengers over John Buscema's pencils before dying in 1969.
Some people think that "Swanderson" was the best, but I personally prefer Swan when inked by Klein.Plus add in Shooter's layouts and it's perfection.
- Swan and Shooter messed up the splash page of Validus attacking Metropolis. It's not terrible, but it's far from great.
Overall, the second Legion/Fatal Five battle comes up just short of the iconic first battle. But the story introduces Shadow Lass, and the Legion will never be the same (and will someone please explain to me why the pre-Adventure 350 Legionnaires are supposed to be so much more important than the post-Adventure 350 ones, including Shadow Lass??)
Was this issue the first instance in a Legion story of a non-splash full page panel? (the Validus attacking panel)
I didn't know there were pre-Adv350 / post Adv350 factions. I thought there was just a pro-Adventure-era faction that championed those characters over the ones added during Cockrum/Grell and forward (noticeably in 5YL)
I had always assumed that since Adv 350 is considered something of a turning point for the series, and since there was no SW6 Shadow Lass, that there was a kind of "Adventure peaked with The Devil's Dozen story" snobbery.
- Swan and Shooter messed up the splash page of Validus attacking Metropolis. It's not terrible, but it's far from great.
Overall, the second Legion/Fatal Five battle comes up just short of the iconic first battle. But the story introduces Shadow Lass, and the Legion will never be the same (and will someone please explain to me why the pre-Adventure 350 Legionnaires are supposed to be so much more important than the post-Adventure 350 ones, including Shadow Lass??)
Was this issue the first instance in a Legion story of a non-splash full page panel? (the Validus attacking panel)
I didn't know there were pre-Adv350 / post Adv350 factions. I thought there was just a pro-Adventure-era faction that championed those characters over the ones added during Cockrum/Grell and forward (noticeably in 5YL)
I had always assumed that since Adv 350 is considered something of a turning point for the series, and since there was no SW6 Shadow Lass, that there was a kind of "Adventure peaked with The Devil's Dozen story" snobbery.
Now that you mnention SW6 , that informs my comment about the pro-Adventure faction - especially as the SW6 stuff ties directly into the 5YL poor treatment (or worse) of the characters that came after Adventure 250/SW6. So there was a pro-Adv350 faction - the question remain why though.
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