Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

In hindsight, it may have been Too Much Information on my part. But I felt the matter needed to be addressed.




I don't understand what this is a reference to.



What I'm about to say is not a popular position to take, but I'm contrary by nature, so here goes: Jan is just as effed up as Hank, she just hides it better thanks to her wealth and her "Winsome Wasp" persona. Several years ago, when I tried to write her in an Avengers fanfic I was working on, I came to the conclusion that the only way to reconcile the inconsistencies in her personality over the decades was to reveal her to be a cocaine addict.



At least Busiek brought up those points in an attempt to provide closure, even though his inner fanboy got the better of him with that ridiculous "It's OK to Be Yellowjacket" resolution. What Millar did, though, is unforgivable -- the dog returning to his own vomit.



Good point. It's a special issue because it's a well-written, well-drawn story that just happens to be the 50th issue.

Sure, why not?

I don't really have a strong opinion or insights on Jan as a character. After her divorce from Hank, there were attempts to make her a "strong, independent woman of the '80s" by making her the Avengers chair. That was actually a pretty good move as it was so unexpected to see Thor, Iron Man, and Cap taking orders from a character who had spent much of her career as a sidekick. But somehow, this "independent" streak of Jan's didn't amount to much or produce any meaningful character moments. She bounced in and out of the book as the plot demanded (such as her most recent and forgettable appearance in 340).

I tend to equate Jan with Dream Girl--someone who pretends to be ditzier and more shallow than she is. But Jan lacks the gravitas that Dream Girl was able to pull off in the Levitz era and after.

Regarding Avengers # 50. I don't remember it that well, save that it features Hercules versus Typhon. I think I was rather disappointed in that, after the big buildup of Herc joining the Avengers five issues prior he leaves so soon. His exile from Olympus had finally ended, but I wish he had told Zeus to shove it asked Zeus for an extension so he could remain with his new comrades.

But you're right: It wasn't treated as an anniversary issue. Likewise, when the Avengers turned 10 years old in 1973, there wasn't a big to-do. I believe there was a notice on the splash page or something. The 10th anniversary happened during the Avengers/Defenders War, and, while that story in itself was special, nothing was made of tying it into the anniversary.

No, I just found my response too clunky to post, so my bad. Knowing more about each other helps blackmail bring us all together



Is it the Lethal Legion where all the dead Avengers come back in? Apologies if by Avengers-Fu is lacking there. My point is that in a world where you know that people come back from the dead, and particularly heroes, your perspective on the topic should change. Since they have also come back as zombies that too should make you think twice about how things end. Like the point I made a while ago about the living in a world where the supernatural is clearly real.



It certainly explains all those late entrances for...costume changes.

Cap: Jan! Your nose is glowing!
Jan: Oh....Hank has been playing around with more insect powers. This is a ...um...a firefly!
Cap: That's great Jan, and just like you to be thinking about the team.
Jan: Thanks Cap.
Cap: Right. Let's get down to the business of kicking Carol out for alcohol abuse. It's not as though any Avengers related trauma could have led to it...
Tony: Hey, I didn't want her in the team in issue #4. Abandon her then I said. >activates Iron Man personal history suppression programme<

If we go with Jan being just as bad as Hank, then I'd suggest that they are in a toxic, mutually destructive relationship. That's something Millar touched on in the early issues of his run. What we saw as the result of that was Hank's actions against her.

With the giant goliathhuge caveat that this in no way justifies his actions nor suggests there's ever an excuse for any creep doing anything of that nature. - this caveat was sponsored by Asbestos >cough< Posts Inc.



There you are. I had wondered if they bothered with that sort of thing every time a character's birthday came round, which is how it seems these days. In fact, these days they give you special issues for the current numbering and then switch it conveniently to count up all the previous numberings for more special issues.

I want to jump back to this point because it touches on a dynamic I find very interesting in super-hero comics. There's a tendency to think that if a character is flawed and we like that character, then we must be condoning his or her flaw; however, this is not the case. Perhaps a character’s flaw provides us with a window into understanding our own flaws.

I have never abused a spouse or had a spouse to abuse, but I can understand where Hank Pym's feelings of insecurity came from. Because of that, I can feel sympathetic toward him while still being horrified at his actions. Such actions illuminate what any of us could be capable of if such feelings are not understood and expressed in appropriate ways.

I think all of us also have the potential for racism--it comes as a byproduct of our cultures, perhaps, or simply from being human. Any difference (race, gender, age, socioeconomic status, etc.) provides a basis for comparison, both favorable and unfavorable. Recognizing this potential does not mean we endorse racism. However, we can be honest with ourselves and respond to such inclinations in appropriate ways.

And if we don't, we can always rely on thoth to blackmail us into doing the right thing.

Good points HWW. The inability to understand the reasons behind such occurrences just lead us into a society that fails to solve such issues, is often blindly ignorant/knee jerk about them and therefore perpetuates them to a greater or lesser extent.

Oddly enough, this is also the same paragraph I use to open my defense of "Why I Rate Ambush Bug" or Avengin' Ambush: Agent of S.L.O.T.H. as he will be known in this thread.

Any brief scan of the news shows that there are plenty of people who are only too eager to jump on someone's attempts to understand an issue as condoning it. To some scary extremes. That's why I live in the 31st centu..oh hi Earth Man!...darn...

And Wasp's personality changed as the plot demanded, something which never happened with Dream Girl.

Having said that, I do think she had her moments during a large part of the Roger Stern era. One which stands out for me is 264, basically a Wasp spotlight issue which also introduces the female Yellowjacket.



I believe that would be one of the Busiek/Perez issues, but Pym was very much alive there.

The joke about the revolving door between life and death in superhero comics is witty and well-taken, but Pym's suicide attempt happened long before that trend.



I think it could have worked if it had been explored with sensitivity, but Millar has all the sensitivity of a junkyard dog, so inevitably his execution was heavy-handed, cold-blooded, and exploitative.

Very well said, He Who.

wiki tells me that Hank contemplated suicide in West Coast Avengers vol. 2, #17 (Feb. 1987) after a confrontation with Whirlwind. He's saved by Firebird. Is that the one?

1987 seemed well into revolving death to me, but with a few notable exceptions, it really has got worse as shown here if you scroll down.

Yep, that's the one.



I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, let's laugh. Life can be pretty absurd at times, and super-hero comics even more so.

Speaking of which . . .

Avengers 367 (October 1993)
"Voyeuristic Visions"

I'm going to dispense with the summaries I've been writing because it takes so long to write both them and the reviews. I trust those who wish to can go back and re-read these issues or pick up what they need from our comments.

I enjoyed this issue quite a bit. It focuses on the Vision and the feelings he's been having--or claiming he's not having. Clearly, he is troubled by his lack of emotion but does not know why he is troubled. Logically, if he has no feelings, he should not care one whit. But he cares quite a few whits.

These concerns lead him to eavesdrop on his fellow Avengers in an effort to comprehend friendship and love. Through his eyes, we learn that Cap and Natasha like to prance around like school kids in love (huh?), that Herc's new flame, Taylor, may be dying, and that Magdalene's love for Philip (whose name is rendered Phillip here) apparently brings the latter out of his coma. Most of these scenes are well done and advance the plot as we get to know the other characters a little better through Vision's eyes.

Eventually, he turns to Hank Pym for advice. This is probably my favorite scene in the book as it makes good use of Vizh's prior relationship with Hank (who is as close to family the Vision has). It allows us to see a different side of Hank, who makes time to listen to the Vision. Hank also confesses that he still misses Jan, but he has to go check on the Swordsman, so Vizh is alone again.

But only temporarily. He visits Crystal and makes an awkward and unconvincing attempt to apologize for using her previous confession for his own ends. This is my second favorite scene in the book because it tells us so much about Crystal: In spite of her feelings for Dane, she still loves Pietro, and she wisely tells Vizh that being occasionally selfish is part of being human. I also like it that Vizh's makes a pretense of apologizing in order to visit her. It's part of the inner turmoil he's going through. Harras, in a masterful stroke, does not explain the subtext of this scene; he leaves it to reader to interpret it.

This leads to the climax in which Vizh encounters Deathcry. I think I see why Fanfie likes her: She cuts through the b.s. that Vizh has convinced himself is real. He does have feelings, after all, but denies them because he is afraid of getting hurt again. Her comment provokes him to lash out and damage a wall. But, displaying another very human response, Vizh dismisses his behavior as an aberration that must be examined. His last line, "Everything must proceed smoothly" sounds creepy and sociopathic. Our favorite synthezoid has some major denial issues.

All of the events leading up to his "breakthrough" are extremely well done and make this, for me, one of the most satisfying reads in this run.

Not everything works, of course. Vizh's first-person narrative provides an unusual story telling device for this book, but one that, while necessary in certain places, comes off as clunky. I kept wondering who Vizh was talking to. For example, to whom would he find it necessary to say, "And who am I, you ask?" Nothing throws me out of a book quicker than the writer building a wall between me and the characters by using artificial expository devices.

In other places, the narration is simply unnecessary. Vision's observations of Philip and Magdalene on Page 13 would have been much more powerful if Harras had trusted the artist to carry the emotion.

The art, of course, is another drawback. Jim Hall and Don Hudson, who sub for Epting/Palmer, are mediocre at best. However, they get the job done, and the story telling is always clear (a skill lost to some more recent comic book artists). The three-page scene with Crystal is also rendered appropriately, making excellent use of shadow.

Of course, it wouldn't be a Marvel super-hero comic without a cliffhanger. This time we've got the supposedly dead Magneto popping in to kidnap Luna--the old child-in-danger motif. Frankly, I couldn't care less what happens with Magneto and Luna. I want to see what the Vision does next. But that's a testimony to how--in a single story--Harras has established Vizh as a very human character with recognizable goals and obstacles.

Glad you enjoyed the writing in that issue so much, He Who. If Epting & Palmer had drawn it, it would have been a done-in-one masterpiece (cliffhanger notwithstanding.) At least they contributed a striking cover.

And yes, what you mentioned is exactly what I liked most about Deathcry.

A personal aside.

While we've been reviewing these issues, I've been reflecting on what was happening in my life at the time. The year 1993 was very significant for me. In March, I lost my grandmother to cancer. Two months later, while still reeling from that experience, I graduated from college. This was a bittersweet experience as I truly enjoyed my time there and missed the friends I had made. (I'm still not one who keeps in touch easily; thank the Internet gods for Facebook and LW.) I also had no idea what to do with my life next.

My mother was also suffering from cancer and would pass away in November, six weeks after I turned 30.

It was probably a culmination of all of these experiences that led me to forgetting much of the Avengers stories during this period. I had a lot of other things on my mind. I was also clinging on to the Avengers long after I had dropped most other Marvel and DC titles. Since roughly the late '70s, I had determined that the Legion and the Avengers were my two favorite comics and, therefore, the two interests which gave my life much of its meaning. But I had finally dropped the Legion in 1990, during the early TMK area. (I returned briefly during 1993-94.) So the Avengers (and Iron Man, which I held on to longer) was the last vestige of my childhood and of my belief that comics were an integral part of my identity.

However, I was also going through a lot of changes, some willingly and others forced on me by death and maturity. I had always resisted the idea that it was possible to "outgrow" comics, but I was finally coming to terms with the fact that there just might be some validity to this claim. The Avengers stories of this period were often mediocre; mostly, they just weren't memorable. In the past, I had turned to comics as a sort of escape valve from life's pressures as well as a source of inspiration. By 1993, this function of comics was no longer working for me.

(I was still reading a bunch of non-Marvel/DC titles at the time. I think I discovered Strangers In Paradise the following year, for example. However, most of these titles were short-lived or inconsistent in terms of quality and publication. Marvel and DC had such a hammer lock on the U.S. comics industry that quality from other publishers proved maddeningly few and far between.)

Ultimately, I had to come to terms with the fact that the Avengers of 1993-94 was, indeed, not what I wanted or needed. I had moved on, and so had this book. It was difficult to give up a series I had regarded as a staple of my life since before I was ten years old. Saying goodbye was like turning my back on loyal, lifelong friends. But sometimes even real friendships turn toxic and must be discarded so an individual can survive and grow. I was slowly coming to accept the belief that sometimes you have to give up old things to allow new things--new light, new love--into your life. That's ultimately what I did.

I guess if there's a moral to this story it is that if you do give up something, you never really lose it. It stays with you. It becomes a part of you. And, in time, you learn to appreciate what was truly valuable about it.

Sorry I've been absent from this thread guys--it's been an incredibly hectic few weeks with no end in sight. Essentially, I've: had to travel to Scottsdale for a week for work, began physical therapy for sciatic nerve problems I've ignored for two years that has grown incredibly painful, am setting up my son's birthday party for this weekend, traveled to Las Vegas for a week for work, got bit by a tick and had to get tested for lyme disease (luckily it was negative), am finalizing a major deal at work I've been working on since late 2013 that had a major hiccup at the 11th hour but I believe has now been all sorted out, and who knows what else at this point since I can't keep track.

Still, throughout that time while my posting has been limited, I have been reading your posts in this thread and enjoying them immensely. I'm very pleased that both HWW and Thoth are enjoying this run--perhaps not every aspect of it but that is what makes the dialogue so interesting.

The first issue of this run I picked up--right from my Dad's pile of Avengers comics--was the one where they're stuck in the artic, and Deathcry is introduced. That issue holds some nostalgia for me, but it was the immediate next story, featuring the Kree soldiers from O:GS, that I loved like nothing else when it came out. So even though it's not as good as the Gatherers issue, it remains a huge favorite of mine.

Lastly, a few thoughts:

- I can also see how Fanfie liked Deathcry so much at the time. A strong, ass-kicking female that cut through all the bullshit and was always herself first and foremost, she was essentially way ahead of her time as someone that has become a stock trope in modern culture these days.

- HWW, love to hear about the personal note about what was going on with you at the time you were collecting these issues. Our personal experiences collecting comics always tell such an interesting, unique story.

- I'm loving that you guys have seen just how well Harras wrote Crystal and the Vision. The others too, but especially Crys & Vizh.

More exciting things to come. Unlike so many other stories in the past, Harras makes sure he brings the Gatherers saga to a sizzling conclusion and then truly delivers.

Avengers #367

What looks to be a Vision spotlight has him question his response to Crystal's declaration of love for Dane. However, he has regularly shown feelings. Loyalty to the Avengers, interest to Deathcry's pointed remarks being only two examples. So, while his deeper search here is one thing, it's part of an inconsistent pattern. A pattern that the analytical Vision should have been more aware of.

More interesting in the opening pages are the ideas that Vision's new body may not be everything his old one was and wasn't. There's all sorts of plot potential there. The other is that Wakanda creates missiles systems. Standard for the Avengers, but I wonder what other weapons systems they create. Unelected Monarch T'Challa is no doubt good buddies with former munitions dealer Tony.

Viz does indeed seem to share the voyeuristic tendencies of Alt+Vision, as he flits around the HQ. I'd be surprised if Harris wasn't intending the parallels between the Vision's actions here and his counterpart. The invasion of privacy, the inappropriate responses and most certainly the entrance into Crystal's company. There was a moment in her voice, where you could sense the tension.

Perhaps this new body is showing him his repression. It would make sense of some of the inconsistencies. The Vision is trying to be devoid of emotion, trying to be as he first was. But his actions have always betrayed that this is not the case. Perhaps he's beginning to realise that, and his defences are breaking down the harder he tries to repress this.
Not content with slurring Crystal, Deathcry targets Vision this issue, comparing synthetic men, despite sentience, to a role as a subclass.

Deathcry: The night sky is a sorry thing here, Vision. I cannot see my home stars.
Vision: I know where we can get a big Wakandian missile to launch you back there.

Crystal's comment about sometimes wanting Vision not to change was also revealing. It could be read as Crystal wanting to spare Viz the bad aspects of it. However, I get the feeling that some of it is to do with Crystal dumping her emotional baggage on Vision, who seems to always be available having no emotions or drives of his own to be anywhere else.

So, there's an interesting parallel between Deathcry and Crystal about using beings like the Vision.

For the readers, Viz acts as a recurring sequence nicely framing our other subplots. It's a nicely paced issue as a result. Madison & Hercules fated to be together for a short time apparently. Magdalene, still allowed to wander around HQ after the briefest of alliances. It's a short scene in the medical unit, but hopefully we'll see more of Magdalene and Swordsman later (Fickles point noted).

Action Pym (as he's not at all like the Pym I recall) provides some interesting parallels and possible movement in the plot. He's been a very good addition so far. He is using his powers though. Perhaps it's the change in art team (who aren't Epting+Palmer quality) but I thought he risked heart issues if he used them.

There's a last page introduction to a larger plot. I take it this involves the Acolytes from their brief previous mention. The Avengers really, really have to find a way of securing their HQ. The masters of Evil will be teleporting in to use the fridge next.

I agree that their past was given a good number of panels. It's also a suggestion that Pym may become important to the Vision's issues further down the line. I was struck at Vision's excuse for his retreat from Magdalene and Phillip's display of love. He wanted to update Pym on Phillip's progress. However, that clearly wasn't the case, as he distracted Pym on a few occasions from going to check on the patient. His encounter with Deathcry was another retreat of sorts.



This with the appearance to Crystal were both uh oh moments.



He's a character with some real conflicts who bears a lot of close watching in the company of his colleagues. Let's hope he's not introduced to anyone called Isaac in upcoming issues. Who knows what could happen?

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences from the time when these stories were coming out, He Who. Glad you've given yourself the chance to re-evaluate these stories under different circumstances than when you first read them.

As for me in '93, I had been tasting freedom for the first time since the fall of '92, when I started college (which I ultimately didn't finish, but that's another story), cut off all my hair and started satisfying my bi-curiosity after having spent all of high school terribly repressed. So those liberating experiences colored my impressions of the superhero comics I had only been reading since summer '91. Characters like Sersi, Magdalene, and Deathcry were similar to what I was like at the time, while Crystal was who I secretly wished I could be more like.

You must have been, what, 13 at the time? That's a good age to get into this run of Avengers, I think. The action, the Image-style costumes, and even the soap opera aspects seem geared to a young audience. Plus, the fact that you dad was involved no doubt makes this run very special.




I'm still on the fence about how well he wrote the Vision. It's good to see that the illogical aspects of his logical personality are leading somewhere and that they apparently have been building to this moment all along. But I think he could have done a better job of hinting at these discrepancies before 367. If one of his comrades had remarked on the Vision's inconsistency, perhaps it wouldn't have come off as sloppy writing.

I do agree that Harras has done right by Crystal, though.

You're welcome, and thank you for sharing your story.

It's interesting to know which characters people identify with. I think one of my problems with this run is that there was no character I truly connected with. I've mentioned before that I wanted to like the Black Knight, but he comes across as too much of a jerk in this run. I definitely do not agree with his stance on killing the Supreme Intelligence, though I admire this decision from a story-telling standpoint.

Hercules is a character I've never really cared for. He's a bit of a blowhard. Good for a few laughs, but that's it. I enjoyed the Bob Layton mini-series which was built upon these comical aspects.

Cap comes and goes as the plot demands. Little thought has been given to his personality or development in the Avengers during these issues. He's there to sell the damn comic, apparently.

Vizh is the ever-popular tortured android. I was never able to connect with the character following his lobotomy and reassignment as an emotionless ghost. So many sins were committed against this characters by writers and the powers that be: Losing his children, losing Wanda . . . we finally start to get a plotline going with him again, but it feels all too familiar. The android who didn't think he had feelings was a familiar theme back during the Roy Thomas issues.

So, that leaves us with the female Avengers. I admire what Harras did with Crystal and, to a lesser extent, Sersi. (Widow is just along for the ride.) But I'm a guy. I identified with the guy characters.

Looking at these stories from this remove, however, I do appreciate many of the things Harras did or attempted to do. I like the ethical conflict between Dane and Cap, for example. I wish it had been brought out more.

Avengers 368 (November 1993)
“Family Legacy”

So, we wrap up the Avengers’ 30th anniversary year with an X-Men crossover—a five part story entitled “Bloodties,” only two chapters of which are presented in the Avengers’ own title. Fortunately, these two chapters are the beginning and end (in 369), so it’s easy to keep up with what’s going on even if the middle is missing.

These two chapters are a bloated affair, although the storyline is built upon a good premise. The African nation of Genosha is deteriorating into a bloodbath between mutants (called mutates) and humans, and the Avengers are ordered for political reasons not to intervene. The Avengers don’t understand why they are being ordered to stand down since they didn’t bother to get involved in a previous Genosha crisis, but they soon find out why Nick Fury has been sent to ground them: Crystal’s daughter Luna—granddaughter of the still supposedly dead Magneto—has been kidnapped by the mutates’ leader.

The reason for the kidnapping remains unclear—said leader, Cortez, spouts a lot of platitudes about fulfilling Magneto’s legacy, yada yada, but that’s okay. People who commit heinous acts for political causes often follow a system of logic unknown to mere mortals. What is important here is that the Avengers have to make a choice—do they adhere to the requirements of their UN charter (the one Cap hastily arranged back in 329 or so) or do they run off to rescue little Luna?

Well, this is an Avengers comic, so we know they’re going to choose the latter. However, the conflict is set up very well. After a prolonged and static expository scene, Nick Fury calls the assemblers together (or at least as many as will bother to answer the call this time around) and hems and haws about how they can’t get involved in a situation they have no interest in getting involved in—until Crystal figures out it’s Luna the mutates are after. She runs to her baby’s crib only to find with great relief that everything appears normal. But “Luna” reveals herself to be a shapeshifting mutate, who—in a scene that eerily forecasts the era of suicide bombers—blows herself up.

The Avengers survive, of course, and rush to their hanger. However, they learn how serious Nick was about grounding them. They find an army of SHIELD personnel (including a pair of Mandroids) blocking their take-off.

All of this is very well done, and, if the issue had adhered to the major plot points above, it would have been even more exciting and well-paced. But, since this is a crossover, it gets bogged down by the usual “crossover bloat,” as I will call it. The scene on Page 1, with Cortez and Luna looking down upon a burning city in Genosha, sets up the situation and mood well, but then we are treated to a two-page exposition involving Fury, Gyrich, and Valerie Cooper.

This is the sort of exposition that Marvel used to do a lot of in those days, and which particularly seems evident in Harras’s run on Avengers (back during the Collector issues, for example). The second panel on Page 2 is basically a large image of three characters standing around talking, telling us things we need to know to make sense of the story. There are seven word balloons in this panel—all emanating from the mouth of Val Cooper. (Just so we’ve got a little bit of action going on, there’s a scene of mutates blasting somebody on the video screens in the background.) Then we’ve got an additional seven world balloons on the rest of the page, and that’s not counting the necessary captions which tell us who the players are and where they are located.

One of the things I’ve learned about story telling in the years since I first read these issues is the importance of minimalism. You can say a lot by saying less. We really don’t need to know all of this background information on Genosha. All we really need to know is that there’s a war between humans and mutates, that the US government will send in a few experts to deal with it, and that the Avengers must not interfere. We can fill in the rest as we go along.

More bloating occurs on Pages 16-20 with an interlude at Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters. The purpose of the first scene is so Gyrich and two other characters (accompanied by a token Avenger, US Agent) can convince Professor X to accompany them to Genosha. We know Prof will go—and he knows he will go—but he can’t resist keeping us in suspense a little longer and delivering the obligatory speech about how no moral person can sit back and watch, yada yada. It’s always nice that our heroes subscribe to the same moral code—a code they apparently have to recite every chance they get. But it would have been nicer—and more dramatic—if Xavier had been conflicted in some way as the Avengers are.

The interlude also introduces us to more players in our already convoluted cast—the Beast, Pietro, and the other members of the X-Men. These scenes play out like a ‘70s disaster flick (as parodied mercilessly in the movie Airplane): Subplots and personal conflicts are set up as the characters go through the motions of doing what they normally do (in this case, exercising in the Danger Room). From an Avengers’ perspective, the only thing that really matters is Pietro’s concern about saving his marriage and retort to Cyclops that he sometimes thinks he (Pietro) doesn’t have a heart. Well, we know he’s going to get a chance to learn otherwise, don’t we?

Otherwise, these scenes are simply intrusive. We’ve talked before about how Marvel assumed everyone was already reading every other Marvel comic—and if you weren’t, these scenes were supposed to entice you into picking up X-Men. But reading them is like being forced to visit with people I used to know but don’t know very well anymore and having to listen to conversations I couldn’t care less about.

When we do get back to the Avengers, we have a lot to care about. There is a very palpable sense of rage when Crystal lashes out at Nick. And the two-panel exchange between Cap and Nick (“I don’t wanna fight you.”) plays well off of their past relationship. Cap simply can’t believe Nick takes the position he does, yet Nick takes it come hell or high water. Their different priorities and allegiances crystallize (pun not intended). As a reader, I feel conflicted because I like both of these characters and hate to see their relationship potentially torn apart. As a reader, that’s exactly what I should feel.

I also feel something for the Avengers as a group: They face losing their charter and possible criminal prosecution if they disobey the directive not to go to Genosha. Yet how could they do otherwise? The two-page spread on Pages 24-25 brilliantly depicts the odds against them.

So, the Avengers’ scenes in 368 show a lot of good things coming together in the Harras/Epting/Palmer run—a sense of shared purpose for our heroes and conflict against overwhelming odds—all centered around Crystal and Luna. Every story should have a center, and these characters serve this function quite well.

Yeah, Bloodties got off to a very promising start. I especially adore the scene where Crystal rips Nick Fury a new one, and Sersi quips, "It seems our little kitten's developed claws. I love it."

The X-Men scenes I could tolerate at the time just for the pleasure of seeing Epting draw other Marvel Universe characters. Ironically, after he left Avengers, he spent a few years contributing to various odd X-titles, so the novelty wore off quickly.

I think it was a stroke of genius to have Crystal, Pietro, and Luna at the center of the tale, and it's the one thing that almost redeems the whole enterprise, as we shall see when we get to the (far inferior) conclusion next issue.

Avengers #368

Another Avengers issue, another few panels of people looking out from rooftops. I've no idea who this is. All '90s comic stubbled, steroid injecting, pony tailed men all look alike to me.

I remember the first Genosha story in X-Men, and things don't seem to have worked out for the nation since. It's a decent introduction to the crisis. It isn't a suddenly appearing villain or something cosmic. It's the fear of the residents after global events push them over the edge. Unless they're being mind controlled by the villain of course.

Nick Fury summons both Avengers teams to sit this one out. With this can of worms open, you wonder why they don't have meetings every month telling the Avengers not to meddle.

I hate to sound all Captain Red Tape America, but aren't the Avengers working for the UN and not the US government?

Despite Captain America and Widow in the room, and loud mouths like Hawkeye & US Agent, writers' favourite Dane gets to give the reply from the team.

USAgent asks why Fury didn't just phone to tell them. Fury blames comms networks, but he surely had to phone to arrange the meeting and then there are all the systems to shuttle one team across the country.

The West Coast team looks pretty short on big name numbers. I'd read most of the Byrne run, when it looked much more like an Avengers team than the East Coast outfit. But hey, I'm reading a group here that would also fit that bill too.

Harris picks up points. Fury explains the UN thingy. To be picky would mean I'd by marvel's Bureaucracy Monthly starring Gyrich & Cap. USAgent, Hawkeye & Herc are all written to character. Cap and Widow get a few line too, as well as Dane.
We also get the real reason the Avengers were warned, which was nagging at me as being as looking a bit forced. Harris' direct link to Luna and a strike against the Avengers cuts through all that.

Dane punches a baby! Okay, Dane punches a possessed baby! Okay, Dane punches an impostor of a baby that then transforms, gives a speech and blows up. But when he punched it, how did he know it wasn't just something speaking through the real Luna? That would have ended his relationship with Crystal quickly.

We get a little speech form the Prof about morality. Hopefully it's being taped by Gyrich to keep the Prof out of big boy politics this lifetime. Speaking of tapes, seeing the Beast adds a new dimension to the story. His skills alone could have had him involved, but he's given a personal link to events too.

Amid a fight scene, introducing us to the X-Men we get to see more on the Crystal/ Pietro marriage form his side. Nice ot know that the opportunity wasn't wasted to mention it. I also got a chuckle when Cyclops wondered if the X-Men weren't up to the mission, because Wolverine wasn't with them. That shows you just how far that team had sunk. Decent link back to the Avengers.

Clunk as we're told how Crystal saves them all, rather than being shown. I may have been right about Crystal getting Lockjaw to teleport Sersi into the centre of the Earth. How any sort of relationship can form between them after those comments will be a surprise, unless they are conveniently forgotten about.

Oops, someone left the hanger doors open. As the Avengers beat up SHIELD, we switch to our other plot of Xavier, McCoy, USAgent & Gyrich on the Road to Genosha. The singing, the dancing, the clichéd supremacy villain. It's all there.

While it's good to see multiple plots, I'm liking this one more due to a well picked X-Men/ Avengers crossover team in it. Plenty of tension, and that's just when someone mentions that the Prof needs a shave.

A bit disappointed that Pym didn't get to do more than stand around, after his impact in the last few issues. No sign of Magdalene, Phillip or Deathcry either, making me wonder if this wasn't written in advance with the other books.

Starring Beast Hope and Bing Xavier--it can't miss!



I wasn't following X-Men at the time, so I had no idea why he hadn't shaved. Was he suffering from depression or something? It's not like Charles to keep up with the fashions of the time.



Yeah, and Pym has conveniently forgotten that growing to giant size poses a health risk for him. Perhaps his suicidal tendencies have returned. Charles should give Pym the number of his shrink. At least Charles is functional if unshaven.

Magdalene actually appears in the two-page spread, over on the right-hand side, IIRC. (I don't have the issue in front of me.) Why she would be allowed to sit in on a top priority Avengers meeting is anybody's guess.

I'm wondering if he'll have a bad wig & ponytail in the next issue. Dane looks more and more like a slob each issue. On this course, he'll look like Lister out of Red Dwarf in a few issues time. Blowing up the mansion while trying to tinker with the chicken soup dispenser.



Oops. Missed her there. It's one thing to want someone on the team. But to just jump right to her inclusion without going through at least a few steps always strikes me as a bit poor.

I didn't mind the exposition here as much as other folks. It's worth noting that it's pretty much all X-Men related as is necessary in a crossover. You want their readers to pick up the Avengers too.

I saw the first example as two pages out of five issues. Yes, it could have been condensed although I've seen a lot worse than 5 & 7 panels. But for X-Men readers Genosha is more important than just another country being taken over. We get an update since its last appearance, introduced, by name, to two important Genoshan figures and Gyrich launches one of the main plots. We get Val's views of diplomats, which leads into the next page where we get the Val/ Nick views on Nick's mission. Nick's view would be linked in with his conversation with Cap later on. The second page is more padded than the first, but the resolution on having to contain the Avengers was the pay off.

The danger room pages bored me too. But, for readers who don't follow their book it's as good a place as any to see their powers and relationships quickly.

The conflicting personalities between Beast, Gyrich, USAgent & Xavier make that subplot intriguing. There's plenty of potential there, if they are written well enough. The trick will be trying to keep Gyrich and Agent's viewpoints valid. Harris has managed this before so I've some decent hopes there.

I picked up on the Pym health issues, and wondered about that too. He's just scenery here, and added without much thought was my conclusion. Harris might well have asked Epting to just draw in the teams, and Epting did just that.

There seems to be an awful lot of steps being skipped in this run. Last issue, Vision mentioned that Hank Pym had returned to active status, but there was no reason given for Hank to do so anymore than there was for Cap to return a few issues earlier.

Good points on the value of the exposition on Pages 2-3. Time and studying writing in other contexts has given me a different view than I might have had back then. It is a very static scene and, on re-read, it almost made me put the book down. There must have been a more creative way to tell the readers what we need to know without having Val launch into a lecture.

The X-Men scenes are also necessary, but I wish something more creative had been done with them, as well. There was an opportunity to show a contrast between Charles, who gets involved for moral reasons, and the Avengers, who get involved solely to rescue Luna, but it could have been brought out more.

I don't think there were many comics back then that would have avoided the way it was portrayed. As I mentioned, they had several little things to put into place and the linear approach is the easiest way.

Off the top:- I was expecting the first scene to be Crystal finding out that Luna was gone. We didn't get that far until much further into the issue.

The Avengers, who had scanners across their HQ (as shown in the Gatherers issues) picked up the Acolytes signature as we see Genosha erupt into conflict. Cut to Ransome & the Gengineer's kid being there to highlight the conflict - gets rid of the first scenes as they call for aid. As the Avengers are preparing to depart they are confronted by Nick Fury. There we learn that another delegation is already on it's way to Genosha. The West Coast Avengers did nothing this issue, so why not just have USAgent appear with Gyrich and Beasty en route to Genosha. Heck, why not have Agent and Gyrich on the scene as Xavier comes in, to cut down the standing around chats even more.



I was hoping for more of the contrast next issue when the teams meet. A little more on Quicksilver would have been nice too, to make that central relationship even clearer. Pietro's goals vs Xavier's would have been interesting to see.