Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

^True dat. We discussed that scene quite a bit during your re-read project. What stands out to me now about that scene (from Avengers 117) is how is just matter-of-factly it is thrown into the story. It's something the Swordsman would do, and, given the circumstances (the other guy had just shot him), thoroughly understandable. However, it tells us a lot of about the Swordsman--a subtle form of character development lacking from the current run.

Avengers #364

You'd think that after Galactus and umpteen other threats' New York would have some sort of detection capability against things form space. But, after a reminder of Galactic Storm, a craft gets close enough to the mansion to take snap shots.

At least Deathcry didn't fight the Avengers immediately, with both battling (the very Sentinel like) Kree Sentries. With this and the interlude, it look as thought he Avengers actions in Galactic Strom are going to come back to bite them in the rear.
The Avengers seem to be prepared for the worst. But Hercules would survive pretty much anything, so presumably he could make his way to civilisation (by practically throwing himself down the mountain) while the others looked to survive as best they could, using Crystal's handy elemental powers.

The art is pretty decent here. desolate mountains, well designed space ships and eerie Kree coming out of the mist like Doctor Who Cybermen.

There's a little bit of posturing to ensure that readers know that Deathcry and Magdalene aren't Avengers, although are quick allies. I though that Magdalene would have been an Avengers analogue from a different world, so her attitude seemed a little odd.
The Avengers win what looks to be a tough battle with a little bit of planning (for a change, and by Cap too!) despite Dane being an idiot. Conveniently, the Kree's blast just stuns him. Non-lethal revenge. But, if the holographic warning's anything to go by the whole Earth might be in danger. If it's anything like the Sentries elimination programme it could mean wedgies for everyone.

It's an all action story, with the Avengers not travelling much further than the remains of the base from last issue. Magdalene seems to be the only survivor of the Gatherers from the base, despite Proctor's words last issue. Fickles hinted that there was more to come there.

There's a solid link between the Galactic Storm issues and the threat revealed here, to make this a stronger chapter in a wider story than it would have been if it had to stand by itself. The back up Sersi story seemed a little forced to me, with Sersi able to fill in the readers through Jarvis with convenient Eternal superpowers. It's interesting she doesn't recognise Proctor though.

Speaking of which, I had though that Proctor's base had not been on our Earth, but a parallel one from which they travelled. Our Watcher was able to sense that place, only by observing the actions of our Avengers as they travelled through to it. Instead, it seems like the Gatherers have an outpost on each Earth they visit.

On our Earth it's handily "hidden" from the resident Watcher of that world. But that would explain perhaps the benefit of having their own tame Watcher. That the Gatherers can move unwatched. Considering how chatty our Watcher is to the local superheroes, I can see why the Gatherers want to stay hidden from groups already affected by mad Sersis.

While I popped back to #363 to look, I was struck at how close Proctor's resemblance was to the longer haired '90s Superman. Which would explain a fair bit at just how powerful he is.

She's supposed to be Marvel's version of DC's Big Barda. Harras confirmed that.

She's never had a proper origin story. My theory is that she's the daughter of an alternate universe Wonder Man and Scarlet Witch, and that her world was decimated by an unseen Darkseid analog, and she was recruited against her will into Marvel's unseen version of the Female Furies.

I don't have the time to write a full review of 364-366, but I have read them. In general, I thought this was a very average action-packed story with a lot of tropes and very little character development. Basically, the Avengers rush from one crisis to the next with the usual developments for such a story. We've got overwhelming odds. We've got two allies with attitude problems. We've got heroes who survive unbelievable torture (or at least we're told it's unbelievable). We've even got Dane's photonic sword popping out of nowhere at a convenient moment so he can participate in the grand finale.

Thoth pointed out some of the 364's strengths above--details I had missed. Yes, the Avengers plan their strategy, and Cap takes the lead. Crystal is put to good use here, and it's interesting to see how powerful she really is.

I'm underwhelmed by Deathcry, who shows up, does a lot of posturing and contributes little else.

Missed opportunity: Now that Magdalene is a guest of the Avengers, it's a shame we didn't get to see her reunite with Philip, even if the latter is still recovering from alt+Vision's assault. Sure, I know the clock's ticking, but little character moments such as that can humanize the story and make it "real" what the characters are fighting for. Saving the world is such an abstract and cliched goal. We know the Avengers are going to win, anyway.

False drama department: Herc is shown carrying Natasha on both the cover and splash page of 364--implying that she has been injured--but she recovers quickly and even manages to lead the assault on the Kree. Maybe she was just napping.

The artwork is spectacular throughout, though it seems forced and Image-like in some places (and not just in the ridiculous battle gear the Avengers wear). Some facial expressions are off, such as Widow on page 14 of 366 and Cap throughout 366. Epting also seems to have one shouting mouth which jumps among the male characters (e.g., Hank and Herc). On the other hand, he really likes drawing Sersi and Crystal, and who can blame him?

Hank Pym's return helps legitimize this as an Avengers anniversary, since--as he clunkily reminds everyone--he's the only founder present. I enjoyed his attack on the Sentinel and momentary humility ("Well . . . I haven't quite figured that out yet"). Still, whenever I see him in Giant-Man form, I can't help feeling that the previous decade of character development--which saw Hank move on from a super-hero role--has been ignored.

And it wouldn't be an anniversary without special features, except that these aren't so special. I agree with thoth that the Sersi story in 364 seems forced (though, yes, it is strange that she doesn't recognize her former gann josin). The Deadpool/Blood Wraith story in 366 is simply a waste of space. I'm not familiar with these characters and care nothing about them. However, it is nice to see the art of Mike Gustovich, creator of one of the best non-Marvel/DC super-hero comics of the '80s, Justice Machine.

Plotwise, 364-366 build nicely off of previous story lines. But there is so much rushing to get the job done that Harras doesn't take the time to let the story unfold or the characters develop in unexpected ways. It's like rushing through a feast without having time to savor anything.

I'll wait to comment on most of what He Who said until Thoth catches up with 365-366.

There are two things I will comment on right now.

1. Back when I first read these issues I was an angry, confused 19-year old -- my favorite movie that year was Natural Born Killers -- and Deathcry seemed like a godsend to me. Since then, I've cooled considerably on both that movie and that character, but I don't think anyone ever forgets how they felt at moments like that, for better or for worse.

2. Hank Pym technically returned to super-heroics way back in West Coast Avengers when, after his suicide attempt, he embraced heroics and became "Dr. Pym". The only difference was that instead of a costume, he wore an ugly boiler suit. So I look at his return to the Giant-Man identity as him coming full circle, not as backsliding. I also love the costume Epting designed for him, with its echoes of Dave Cockrum's Colossal Boy costume.

Bah! behind again...

Fanfie,
Just out of curiosity, what was it about Deathcry that you connected with, and are those qualities evident in 364-366, or are they coming?

I know we've discussed Hank Pym's return to super-heroics before, and we both have different takes on it, which, as I've suggested, are products our own experiences and outlooks. That's what makes these reviews so interesting.

And I also want to add that it's very interesting that you, thoth and I, the current reviewers in this thread, represent three distinct generations of comics fans. Thoth is, in effect, the new generation, discovering these issues for the first time. You read them as a teenager, so they have that emotional connection for you that comics have only when they are being discovered for the first time. I'm reading these as a veteran fan who had many years of loyalty invested in the series yet still wanted something fresh. I think we each bring different and complementary perspectives to our reviews of this era.

Getting back to Hank . . . from my grizzled old veteran stance, full circle is pretty much the same as backsliding. It's another way of reinforcing the illusion of change instead of letting the characters go through real change.

Hank since the early 1980s had gone through hell and created some hell of his own. Shooter, I think, had woven all of the strands of Hank's previous identities (Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, and Yellowjacket) together in a brilliant session with a prison psychiatrist. Hank, we learned had suffered a series of breakdowns starting with the kidnapping and murder of his first wife, Maria. Such a tragic event would be damaging to anyone, and Hank never even had a chance to come to terms with it. He launched into a career as a super-hero but found that career curtailed by health problems stemming from his size-changing powers. He suffered more than most of his contemporaries did, even being stuck at ten feet tall for a period.

Along the way, he fell in love with Jan and married her--but still couldn't reconcile his basic insecurities. This was even mentioned in Avengers # 60 and was the reason (induced by a chemical mishap) for his Yellowjacket identity: He wanted to be worthy of Jan.

From that point onwards, he tried to leave super-heroics several times but kept returning, largely at Jan's behest. It seems she was the one who craved the spotlight and the action. Hank was happiest in a lab and working with test tubes, but he went along like a good soldier/spouse.

I suppose Hank's true failure here was his inability to communicate what he truly wanted, or perhaps he felt too insecure to assert his needs. In any case, it all culminated in his final return to the Avengers in which he desperately clung to the group and his need to belong to them (or, perhaps, to prove himself worthy of Jan). This led him to commit some thoroughly illogical and horrific acts, including spousal abuse.

Hank's actions were in no way justifiable. Perhaps they were understandable, though, as the actions of someone who had finally gone over the edge.

Perhaps because of the things I've experienced and witnessed--including fallen celebrities--I can readily accept all of this. I can accept that not everyone is cut out to be a super-hero, and that those who serve behind the scenes--in the labs and with test-tubes--are just as valuable as those who put on long johns and charge into battle. I can accept that Hank Pym had done both great things and terrible things.

I also admire closure. There was a point where Hank had accepted a job outside of the New York area, and he and Jan were able to part as friends. I thought this would be the last we would see of Hank, and I was fine with that. There's nothing wrong with an ex-hero happily riding off into the sunset.

But it was not meant to be. Hank Pym is a fictional character and part of a franchise. Such characters never disappear forever. From a business perspective, I understand this. From the perspective of a fan and reader, I don't like it. It suggests that these stories truly have no consequence.

When alcoholics decide they no longer want to be alcoholics, one of the things recommended for them is to change their lifestyles. This includes no longer hanging out with other people who drink. By way of analogy, Hank's membership in the Avengers can be seen as contributing to his mental breakdown. So long as he continues to hang out with them and do the same things they do, he is not ready to put behind the destructive tendencies that fueled his previous behavior. Of course, this is comics. We're led to believe that he is now "cured" and ready to be a good soldier once again.

Sorry, thoth, I keep jumping the gun by doing two or three issues at a time. Don't feel you have to keep up.

I connected with her savage instincts, her flair for the dramatic, the way she was outspoken and always to the point. There's also another side of her coming in 367, which I won't spoil.

But...I...Must!

Must stop...typing...like Kirk...too.

Avengers #365

Another shouty Avengers group shot on the cover. Charge of the light brigade expressions against unknown foes. I think it's supposed to make them look tough, but they always look as though they're tactically inept to me. The light brigade charge didn't work out too well either.

[Captain Marvel, The Ray & Airwave vs Living Laser & Lazon next month in The Light Brigade #1]

Last issue left us with an impending threat to eradicate life on Earth. This issue sees the first strike from the Kree against humanity (apart from failing to kill the Avengers). But a hint is about all we're going to get.

There's no doubt that Black Widow is in command of the team in the first page. Jenny Sparks spouts off commands like this too. They're supposed to be cool and authoritative. Instead, they come across as self doubting and unsupportive. Good luck optimising any team like that. The high chair suits her childish leadership approach.

Magdalene is in the background, not long after her team tortured Vision (who shows plenty of emotions around Deathcry's comments this issue). With Deathcry also in the mission centre of the HQ, are the Avengers a little trusting in their own base? Deathcry could easily have brought the Kree sentries herself just to fool the heroes. Then there's the Deathbird look.

Cap picks up a little on her possible threat, but he's cut off by Black Knight to show how much cooler Dane is than the Marvel stalwart and title carrier. There were also a couple of panels where Dane punches out Batman, just to reinforce this, but Marvel had to drop them for legal reasons.

Hercules' look is probably at its best here, despite the high tech add-ons. It's been done in stages, and is possibly about to be hampered by looking too much like Image, but Crystal, Sersi, Herc have much better looks than I'm used to seeing.

Still, it's all very tense as we switch to the Kree camp. One of the men foolishly points out that targeting the Avengers before enacting their revenge is giving the game away a bit. Clearly the man has no place in a group of comic villains, and is rebuked by his leader who then departs for a ...conference.

The scene between Sersi & Dane is the strongest in the issue. But Sersi ends up thanking Dane for controlling her temper, when she has just caught him with Crystal. After all, his relationship with Crystal isn't the issue. It's all Sersi's fault. Now transplant those reactions into a more real life relationship and ...yuck! Dane doesn't come off looking too good at all.

So, although we get a good summation of their relationship and some very good (and well drawn) Crystal reaction panels, I'm left with a very unsettled feeling about the scene.
I still think Sersi should be allowed on missions. She's one of their most effective members and it would add to build up of whatever the her character arc is going to be.

Deathcry has been allowed access to the Avengers files. No doubt she had to take turns with Magdalene to see who could amass enough knowledge to betray the team first. Meanwhile, in Washington, Gyrich wakes up screaming.

Deathcry's first use of all this knowledge is to make racial slurs against one of her team mates. I wonder who will be the first to nominate her for membership.

We see the Vision keep up with a quinjet, which seems really fast, and something he should make more use out of.

For someone who was waiting for more of a Crystal/ Vision relationship, his replaying her line from the hanger over and over has more significance than has been shown in the book.
The Avengers survive falling into the Kree trap. They all make too good a recovery from the crash to have been taken down so easily by the Kree and their Universal macguffin weapon. But not all of the Avengers have been captured...

This issue has a lot going for it on the surface. The start of a big dramatic threat; some cohesive team work by the Avengers in a good look for them; some good personal subplot development. The art makes everything look pretty decent too.

But on writing this, the points beneath the surface are the ones that linger: The poor leadership by both Widow and Kree; Having two confrontational unknowns wander around HQ; Dane's treatment of Cap; the cliched villain plot.

The Sersi/Crystal/ Dane relationship is a bit of both of the above. We have three central characters who we're supposed to have some empathy for. But they are all as bad as each other really. Crystal's having an indecisive affair; Dane didn't rebuke Sersi's earlier advances and is now having a relationship with Crystal knowing what the consequence will be. In fact, he chides Sersi for being upset about it. Sersi allowed Dane to be bonded to her without any discussion, and finds the result isn't anything she wanted.

I'm not sure if it this is intentionally so messed up, but it certainly makes things interesting. This issue seemed to take sides against Sersi though, which unbalances things.

Avengers #366

The Vision (whose hand we saw creepily burst through the ground at the end of the last issue) returns to Avengers HQ. Magdalene and Cap ask enough questions to give us a reprise of the last issue and to tell us what a nega bomb is. Why do they tractor beam the bomb from orbit, rather than fly it down with their giant, concealed spaceship? No time to think, because off goes the ship. Probably to hover around New York above the mansion like Deathcry's ship did, before releasing the bomb.

"Magdalene, you're not an Avenger but..." is one of those lines that always makes me smile in a fun way at comics. Particularly the Avengers where Cap will explode if everyone's membership status is not clarified at every change.

Speaking of membership, Pym is the only person who heard Natasha's call? I know her leadership was rubbish last issue, but that's a pretty poor response to a global crisis.

Widow should have announced an all new Avengers line up. Everyone always turns up for those issues.

Galen Kor is discovered by Kona Lor as being in league with another villain, as hinted last time out. Will she let the Avengers know? Since they are all a bunch of petty torturers, I'm not terribly bothered about them or their plight.

Dane survives some torture. Since, he's survived Kree sentry blasts and almost disembowelment he's handily invulnerable when he needs to be. He's also providing the link to bring the other Avengers to the Kree. While convenient, it's been set up well enough across the issues.

Normally, comic prisoners are kept in tubes or shackles to prevent them using their powers. The Kree know this and have kept Herc subdued. But why is Crystal not using hers?

Giant Man has rejoined and in less than an issue we know his powers, and about their potential cost. Sersi flies right through a Kree Sentry and, after all these issues, I've no idea if it's because she's super strong or transmutes things in her path.

Come to think of it, Pym was in the mansion testing Sersi wasn't he? Did Natasha call anyone?

What is it about comic artists and showing subservient women on leashes? Worse still, while Herc breaks free after relentless attempts, Deathcry looks to have been able to break free all along. So why did she put up with some menacing looking torture? I shudder to think. Does she kill that Kree? It looks like it. She's sure to get nominated in this line up now.

Ah, hull based power dampeners affect Crystal. Thanks Mr Harris.

It's odd to read Cap justifying the new vicious streak in the Avengers. It's not a stance he's taken before. In fact, against the Supreme intelligence and against the treatment of Alt+Vision it's a stance he's actively opposed. Having shown good character contrast previously, it's sadly inconsistent of Harris here. Worse, he could be putting his own thoughts into Cap's mouth to justify his writing of other characters.

Mind you, I don't believe for a second that Cap doesn't have a body count starting as far back as WWII.

With an Inhuman and an Eternal on the team, the Avengers should have access to things like teleporters, so they can move as easily as their villains do.

Never invite Herc or Magdalene on your bomb disposal team. Particularly not when the Vision picks a bad time to get his sums wrong.

The team are a bit fortunate that they didn't blow the Earth up by mistake, but Sersi pulls them through with her powers. She was also a big player in the Arkon story too, so she's probably the team's most powerful member. So, probably not the person you want to annoy by running hand and hand along a beach with a love rival as Dane is doing.

But it's not romance that's on Dane and Crystal's mind. They're wondering why they didn't get on the ship with Cap & 'Tasha and who's going to save them from the exploding island?

As the world's environment is impacted by the devastated island (something we don't see a glimpse of in future issues I bet) Pym, like Cap before him this issue, validates the new team.

But the reveal this issue, and the thing that makes some sense of the Kree commander's plan, is the appearance of the upgraded Collector as the master villain. It's another thread going through this run that most other team books don't really have, as they lurch from one story to the next.

Overall, it was a bit of a straightforward resolution that didn't really grip me despite the splash pages, and the decent threat level. Herc punching the bomb made me lose a bit of interest that affected the rest of the book. Characters shrugging off horrible torture and conveniently one step ahead villains didn't help.

As for the additions, Pym adds a lot of visual presence to the team. He's much more action orientated here than I'm used to seeing him.

Deathcry would seem to be a sort of Wolverine type, able to kill with her wrist spikes. The sort of character I'd be expecting the Avengers to stop, rather than let join. So far, she's added very little in either personality or skills. I hope the book doesn't turn into Alt+X-Men

Magdalene was very much in the background here, and I'll be expecting some focus on her if she's going to be established around the team.

The cast has expanded quite a bit as of this issue, so it will be interesting to see who sticks around. Hopefully, it won't impact on what character development the book provides.

I guess beating up on a subordinate made Admiral Galen-Kor horny.

Either that or they really were discussing maintenance schedules for the sentries.

This is what I meant by the story being trope heavy. Harras's challenge here was that he had to establish the admiral as a formidable foe, so how does he do that? By having him put down a mouthy subordinate and then hinting at his sexual prowess. Yawn.

Is it too much to ask for, I dunno, a bit of originality?

In the next issue, Galen-Kor goes even further into stereotypeland when he strikes the same female lieutenant he "conferenced" with after she interrupts him at a crucial moment. Such portrayal makes me miss Thane Ector, whose portrayal was more nuanced.

I believe the comics code demanded the panels of where it popped out from to be removed HWW. So, not Harris' fault on that one.




Yup, that would have been good to see. Hopefully there will be a bit more on that now that the Kree crisis is over with. Character development has been spotty, and it would be a pain to see little further development due to new arrivals pushing them out of the way. Magdalene's only just got to the team, but could be pushed out by Pym and Deathcry.



Shouty group shots! "Right everyone! Just shout 'Avenge!'"




Good point. In my haste, I've not really given a lot of thought to the anniversary nature of these stories. I wonder if that played a part in Cap's speech earlier in the issue. Still off character though.



I just skipped it after a quick glance. I hope it doesn't lead into anything. Next issue: Deadpool joins the Avengers!




Readers are raced by the nose in lots of stories of this type, so I don't begrudge seeing it here too much. Quite often, the pace helps to keep that suspension if disbelief aloft. There are a few rough edges here, that promised more. The Kree commanders' subordinate seeing the Collector fro example. Little things that may well pay off later, but that stick out a little in the current story.



Was that the red thing I recall him wearing? i agree about his costume this issue. He didn't look at all out of place.



Hey, I'm the new generation! I'm just going to take a few moments to savor that. Feel free to get on with something else in the meantime... make a coffee... raise a family...




The age old debate of character change...which I'm going to just mark and whisk on by for now.

An excellent round up of Hank's career HWW. As someone who dips in and out of the Avengers, I generally get an issue where Hank's past is brought up again, as a weight he always threatens to drag him down. His colleagues note the identity changes, and know they may be linked to instability. Hank seems to feel the pressure just being in proximity of people who know his past, and his breakdowns, so intimately. Invariably, there's an Ultron story and Hank doesn't get out of many of those unscathed. Busiek and Perez would add in even more heartache around Hank's earlier choices.

As much as steroid abusing, overly powerful villains can be anyway

Perhaps Dane should have said he had gotten it from the conference room.




Many times these anniversary specials don't feel like anniversary specials. When the Avengers celebrated their 20th anniversary in 1983, the lineup was, for a short-time, almost all female: Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel II, Wasp, and She-Hulk, plus Captain America (who, of course, is also the mainstay this time around). Thor was still a member, but was temporarily absent, and Iron Man (who was going through his alcoholism) had just resigned (or, rather, Rhodey had "resigned" for him). I think Hawkeye was still a member but absent for awhile, as well. Starfox was also a member, but the less said of him the better.

What passed for a special story during that time was a crossover with David Letterman.

On the other hand, when Avengers # 100 was published, all 12 members to that time returned (including the Swordsman, who, to that point, had only infiltrated the team). I've read this story several times, but I remember little of it, save for the novelty of all 12 Avengers being present.

Avengers 150 was more memorable as it involved a "changing of the guard." It was also Steve Englehart's swan song and was unnecessarily padded (along with 149) to include flashbacks from the Avengers' history. At the time I didn't mind, though, since much of the Avengers' history was still new to me.

Avengers 200 was a travesty, which we've discussed elsewhere and which I wrote about on my blog.

I don't remember 250--that was during the Stern era, which I remember with somewhat less enthusiasm than Fanfie and Cobie.

Avenger 300 contained another lineup change: Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and Gilgamesh promised an Avengers lineup unlike any previous one. I remember looking forward to that era, only to have it end anticlimactically a few issues later.

We've already discussed 350, so that brings us up to speed on the various anniversaries of note.

In general, it's great that companies want to acknowledge milestones in a book's publishing history. Unfortunately, it's very hard to come up with a story that makes the occasion truly special.

I hope he knocked first, before going in.

For anniversary issues, it's a question of quality like it is for any other issue. You can have all the posters, back ups, cover galleries and who's who pages you want, as long as the main story was worth paying for. The story may be something that's been built up to over months or a shock anniversary crisis or just a normal story. As long as it's good.

Unfortunately, any extra pages is tough on a regular team. This leads to padding and fill ins. Sometimes this impacts a number of issues before the big one. Sometimes subplots are derailed for the big sales push. Just the things to make me drop a book, if the quality dips too far. Like you said "it's very hard to come up with a story that makes the occasion truly special." All too often things like a good story get in the way of a quick cash in.



I got #244 & #246 quite early on when I started getting regular DC & Marvel comics. I didn't get them from a regular store, but from somewhere more off the beaten track. I thought they were back issues. But it turns out they weren't that old when I got them. While DC was building up to Crisis and seemed brighter and fresher, the Avengers got Starfox and a bored Wasp at a party.

They just read as very dated comics. Some of that is down to the art. I think one was Infantino who is distinctive, but not the easiest sell for me. But the artists can only work with what they've got, and the Avengers didn't do anything for me in those issues. Checking the cover gallery reminds me that Sersi was in one of those, and I thought she was going to be a villain.



I remember the Windsor Smith art being good in some places and a little off in others and that's about it.




Yeah, that would have been the first time I'd seen the origin of the team. Since I got it for the Perez art, I felt shortchanged that the flashback was just dumped into the issue.




I don't think the penny dropped on that one when I read it as li'l thothkins. It was a bit loony, but I was probably distracted by the Perez art and the character moments. I think it was years later when I read about it online, that made me go back and dig out the issue.



I remember seeing the cover and rolling my eyes - The Avengers reduced to drafting in two people from another (presumably more popular) team, A flag waver with an identity crisis, verily the dullest Avenger and a guy with a cow on his head. Strangely I passed.

I should have said that Avengers 151 was padded, not 149. The two-part "changing of the guard and flashbacks" tale began in 150 and ended in the next issue, diluting the special occasion of 150 even further.

You're right about quality being a concern for every issue and not just anniversaries. You're also right about the sales gimmicks and quick cash overriding story quality.

And the thing is, from a business perspective, it works. If these things didn't sell, Marvel and DC would not keep making them. Fans can complain and kvetch all they want, but as long as they continue to buy the special issues, the decision makers will keep publishing them.

Re: Avengers 300. I've mentioned before that I liked the idea of Mr. Fantastic being a general whose ideas clashed with Captain America's and not a foot soldier who would instantly follow orders. Unfortunately, this subplot was not developed and quickly forgotten once Reed and Sue left the book. I just wish Marvel had allowed some of these off-the-wall ideas to grow rather than ditching them for a quick change.

Which 7 Avengers** will be left standing in the Secret Membership Drive X-Arena 12 part Event series*? - the perfect Avengers sales gimmick?

With the Avengers, I would be someone who would pick up a membership change issue or an anniversary. Those issues turned me from a browser to someone picking it up from the shelf at least. The thing is, the quality isn't there, so they end up being the only issues I buy from the shop, which is why I'm a browser in the first place.

#329 comes to mind as an example of this.



Is there a hint of Marvel's Illuminati forming from those issues? Cap America gets brain wiped (no pinch from DC I'm sure) by Mister Fantastic, Stark, Panther, Beast (to rattle off the Avengers I can remember from that group) because their differing ideas reach a point of conflict?


*plus 143 spin off titles.

** Wolverine will be one of them.

You guys have been busy here! Good! I'll catch up and comment either tonight or tomorrow.

Supers. Look forward to it.

Incidentally, I peeked at a recent Avengers issue in the shop. It looked quite interesting in a weird alternate universe sort of way. Wouldn't it be a nice twist if at the end of this seemingly doomed universe, a portal opens, bringing in a group of Gatherers.

But I'm still not buying something that wastes three pages getting to the actual story.

You know, even though various Avengers had widely different experiences of being in command (including a god, a prince, and a tycoon), no one ever really challenged whoever was in charge before. It was always understood that Cap was the living legend and natural-born strategist, but even when someone else was in charge--Thor, Wasp, or even Natasha in the issues we're reviewing--no one ever really challenged that command.

So when Reed Richards came along and provided some real internal conflict, I thought it was a breath of fresh air. More, it came naturally from Reed's background as the only recognized leader of the FF. He was used to calling the shots and not having to answer to anyone. He could have learned something from being an Avenger.

There was also an opportunity for Cap to grow as a leader. Cap had grown complacent--as I think his portrayal during both the Hama and Harras issues demonstrates--so it was good that someone came along to shake up his understanding of this role with the Avengers.

This would also have been a very different sort of conflict from the early days when Hawkeye and Pietro both thought they should lead the Avengers instead of Cap. Hawkeye and Pietro were newbs as heroes as well as Avengers, and each had an inflated opinion of himself. Reed was a contemporary of Cap's--and, in many ways, his intellectual superior. He presented a real threat to Cap's leadership.

Again, I think this is one of the most significant wasted opportunities in the book's history.

I'm picking up that natural born strategist a lot in these issues. Natural born strategist of WWI. "Walk slowly, but directly, at the machine guns lads!"

I can see why Mister Fantastic would be a terrible Avenger at first. But you're spot on in that it would have developed the perceptions I have of both Cap and Reed. Reed, away from the lone genius who emotionally abandons people in his quest for knowledge (The Ultimate version went down that road). Cap, away form being patronised by anyone who would become an illuminati member, unable to develop ideas outside of his own time or people's perceptions of him.

I can see both of them finding common ground and saying "Gilgamesh, would you take that dead cow off your head?"

Re: Deathcry's racism, I'm not going to defend her, but I will say that I grew up in Latin America, which was an extremely racist society during the 80s, and I probably would have become a racist myself had my parents not been good liberals. As it was, I still struggled with my racist upbringing for years after moving to the States. So while I don't condone what Deathcry said, I could somewhat understand where it came from.

Re: Pym, sure it would have been nice for him to permanently exit the Marvel Universe after he first redeemed himself in the early 80s, but such is not the way of corporate mainstream comics. So I think what Harras did was the best compromise, especially considering that Englehart in WCA nearly drove Pym to suicide. I also give Harras points for not bringing up Ultron or any of Pym's other past sins. That Pym has never been able to move on with his life is entirely the fault of lazy writers and editors.

Re: anniversaries, if we're counting every 50 issues, then surely we should mention issue 50? I think that one's a masterpiece, easily the best Hercules has ever come off in the pages of Avengers, and John Buscema inking his own pencils is the icing on the cake.

I don't like 100. I've always found Windsor-Smith overrated, and the script was far from Roy Thomas' best.

I don't like 150, either. Or 151. Nice Perez art, sure, but rampant egoism behind the scenes ruined it.

200 should never have been published.

250 isn't a bad story, even though it's really Stern scripting over plot threads introduced by Gruenwald years earlier in other books. What really sinks it is Milgrom's pencils. I really wish John Buscema had returned to Avengers a few issues earlier.

300 is pretty awful. Walt Simonson, the writer, left the book after this issue, because editorial kept changing the lineup on him. He did very much want to explore the potential Reed/Steve conflict that He Who described, but editorial ordered Reed and Susan to be returned to the Fantastic Four. As Simonson himself put it, "Whatever it takes to write Avengers, I didn't have it." On the bright side, Simonson's consolation prize was being able to take over Fantastic Four, and I consider his FF run to be the only one other than Lee & Kirby that stands the test of time (Byrne who? Hickman who?)

Thanks for providing some additional depth around that Fickles. I had taken it as a throw away line by Deathcry, and it's obviously had different resonances with different readers. Hmmm...awkward typing pause as first two attempts don't work...usually a sign to move on after one attempt so...


Since you know you're going to be one of Nefaria's Avenger zombies, you'd think Pym would have extra reasons to avoid any kind of death.



Ah, Having not read this run, I couldn't be sure that was the case as he's just been introduced (spoilpuss ). Generally (and feel free to correct me or throw rotten fruit) but Wasp is also there so that Hank's angst is exacerbated. Since she hasn;t joined yet, perhaps eh's a bit better off.



It's a giant-man sized hook around the character. It's something I was going to touch on when we were done with this. But Hank's character is reinforced with non-Avengers readers with identity crises, hitting Jan, mental breakdowns and Ultron. I've run into those plots often enough, and they stick more because I've not read so many of the other issues in between. No surprise that Busiek/ Perez would hit those points. No surprise that Millar would hit (ahem)those points too in the Ultimates.




Did they count it as an anniversary in the issue? I find a lot of it enforced from above to the detriment of the issue. In other words, if no one bothered about it being a 50th issue, it was probably a better issue than the forced efforts to boost sales of later 50th interval comics.




In the back of my mind there's a Conan/Red Sonja issue that's had a lasting impression on me. I'm trying to hunt it down (every now and then fro a minute) but I'd not be surprised if Smith was the artist.



I'd have to reread it I guess.



I think I enjoyed it at the time. Please see previous post about pennies defying gravity.



You wonder what the point is. Clearly it wasn't meant to be a one issue thing with the Avengers creative team.

Avengers: Can we get Reed & Sue please?
FF: Sure.
Avengers: Great1 We have a year long plot around them planned.
FF: Oh, but you can only have them for five minutes.
Avengers: I wonder what Dane & Crystal are up to....

It's so stupid, I can't even blame editorial. They have clearly been mind controlled by something far dimmer.