Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Also, one thing to remember about the Starjammers is that they weren't really written out of character. While they were always depicted heroically in X-Men, not everyone one of them was all that heroic. They were essentially space-pirates, fighting the good fight in the tradition of Sir Frances Drake--but when all was said and done, they were still pirates.

Raza and Hepzibah, particularly, were always a bit on the more blood-thirsty side even in their earliest appearances. Hepbzibah is the most "un-human" of them all in personality, basically at times being shown as a bloodthirsty pet cat of Corsair's. Her actions fit right in character IMO. Raza is much more complex but he's another one that was never a "good guy". He was a protagonist, sure, but his moral grey area is a much darker hue than we mere humans are used to.

This was a time where the Starjammers hadn't been seen in a few years. The X-offices had basically moved on once Claremont was no longer involved. Harras bringing them in here was a pleasant surprise and its a shame he never was able to do a sequel story. It could have been the start of another phase in the Starjammers history, rather than what basically happened: limbo on a more prolonged and regular basis.

Thanks for that Cobie. I'm not terribly familiar with the characters as I only see them in passing.

Avengers #352
We begin with a stroll into Lovecraft territory with the Lloigor and a mash up of Yog Sothoth and Iok Sotot. The text is no less florally than the Harras issues, and I like the scratchy art for the emaciated Grim Reaper. The giant y'golonac creature from the skies doesn't even look out of place (after a second glance). The airline crash is dramatic and brutal (although having villains do this sort of thing makes you wonder why anyone would fly in such a world). The chain of orders into such events is very reminiscent of a slightly older Doom Patrol issue.

Hercules' dialogue seems pretty clunky, with the Vision not far behind. The flight recorder scene feels a little drawn out. But there's the Reaper again, up to more carnage. I'm still surprised that these five are the core of the Avengers. Not in a bad way, just that it's quite a different line up.

Rather than prolong the mystery for the Avengers, the Reaper turns up and tells them exactly where he can be found. So, the plot string is pretty visible as our heroes follow it along. Everyone's dialogue is suffering by now.

Our powerful Reaper crosses wizard of oz dialogue with variations on formless spawn from Lovercraft and his buddies. Crystal is attacked too easily by them, but rallies in the end. The Avengers then face a giant cackling Reaper. Like the first segment of the story, this also feels padded out to fit nicely into the size of an issue.

It's a short summary because not a great deal really happens in the issue. Some promising visuals doesn't really divert attention away from this. Villain blows stuff up - villain calls heroes to tell them where he is- heroes go and confront villain. There are no subplots or deviations to engage the reader, just a few splash pages.

The Reaper is ridiculously powerful, seemingly just because at this stage. He's shown no personality beyond clichéd arch villain either.

Avengers #353
This issue starts off with some nods to the Evil Dead. It's not a great, but Herc finally takes care of foes without getting pounded into the ground. I can picture Herc being boastful of his many exploits and experiences to the point of droning. But it's not how I've read him in the earlier issues. Crystal and Sersi also get to use their powers a bit more, taking the slack from the Vision who has to be "fascinated" by a few more things.

Ah, the Reaper's sorcererous powers are "vast". that's okay then. I was worried it they would be over the top. He uses some of those powers for a bit of scrying (without a license I bet!) and to summon some more Lovecraftian god names.

I quite liked the Vision / Crystal exchange. We've seen it a lot before. But Crystal comes across as more earnest than many of those other characters in her willingness to make sure the Vision understands.
Handily, the plot string takes the form of a pilgrimage of hooded figures going towards the Reaper's house (another Lovecraft reference actually). Inside, with enough nods to horror films to make your neck hurt, the Reaper has created creepy creatures from the shells of his prisoners. A decent page, that the lack of plotting depth probably allowed more room for.

Ah, the creatures are a host of Avengers foes. All in costume too and handily identified by the Reaper for the readers. I can't resist looking for Pol Krinn from the Mordru zombies story. Alas, he's not there.
The story takes a moment to mock itself regarding horror movies and then it's zombie action.

They are siphons for living energy and they do a few movie and comic impressions as they take down the avengers. Of course they can, because sorcery trumps... well everything . A nice touch is the use of the torch the Avengers are carrying. It's set up as they go in, with a horror flourish. The pages are black and Whitman's torch sputters as the Avengers fall. Simple and effective.

This issue carries over the tone from the last. It's not complex and it's going for a quick paced, easy story with a bit of action and horror thrown in for fill in measure. An improvement is the reduction in having to see the Reaper's "vast" powers at work. It's better when the Avengers are facing minions.

Avengers #354

Without the gaping maw, the cover looks like the Avengers have been beaten up by the guy out of the Thriller comic. Definitely not one I would have bought had I not got them in bulk. It reminds me of.. nope, gone.

As the foul creatures pin him down, Whitman can smell their necrotic tissues oozing with undead magicks. One leans towards him, opening it's maw. The thing's needle sharp teeth glitter for a moment in the light of the dying torch...then they all get up, hand Whitman back his sword and step back apparently. A bit of disconnect from the last issue allows Whitman to attack.

But his wound opens and the zombies go a bit nuts for his blood. So, not only was it referred to, it moves along the combat. The others aren't faring well either. It's a nice change to see everyone display their powers, have them fail and have to try and come up with something else. We've not seen enough of this in previous issues. In part, as they had more plot points to get though. Herc is pummelled to the ground again. It was too good to last.
I quite liked the Vision shifting the combat to the Reaper himself. It raises it from just being another slugfest.

It goes a bit downhill from there into the Meadow of Much Used Plot Machinery. It never takes much for the villains to recall absolutely everything. Heroes should carry photos around in a pouch for this sort of eventuality. "Here's one on the beach, when you were happy... Waaah! I remember!"

The dialogue remains consistently corny right to the end, where we're also treated to another splash page. The Lovecraft references go almost as far, with the zombies turning on their creator.

There we are, three issues in quick time. It didn't take long and I've read a lot worse fill ins than these in the past. Incidentally, the number of fill ins is an issue (or rather a lot of issues)in this run. I see Proctor mentioned in the next issue box. It seems like ages ago.
The writer had his tongue firmly in cheek for a lot of this and I get the feeling he enjoyed rattling it out. Perhaps more than the readers did?

For Avengers readers with more investment in these characters, I imagine it was three long months of waiting for the regular guys to come back and get a move on.

My only experience in reading Lovecraft was in middle school, so I may have missed Kaminsky's attempts to be be in-joky in that area.

One "homage" I did pick up on was Inspector Henderson, who apparently was plucked out of the 1950s Adventures of Superman TV series. He even wears the same kind of hat.

Your review was more charitable than mind would have been, thoth. At some point, I might like to analyze these issues for what not to do in writing a story, but for now I agree with every point you raised: the lack of subplots, the thin plot, the horrid dialogue. It's small consolation to realize Kaminisky may have intended it to be bad. On re-read, though, I just want my $3.75 back.

Onward and upward.

Oh, it's not a lovecraft homage in a good way. Mostly just some names and a few surface level bits and pieces.

I didn't get the Henderson link, having not seen Superman TV. There are probably more in there I missed.

Perhaps we've been harsh on this subversive parody of mass popular culture? Or perhaps not...

The dialogue in Avengers has been corny since I got here. Didn't the Avengers fight zombies or old comrades in the Busiek/ Perez run too? I can remember at least one huge clunk of dialogue from that, and I 'm not sure it was choreographed as well as this effort either.

Avengers 355 (Late October 1992)

“When Come the Gatherers . . .!”

Summary
The Swordsman and Magdalene, accompanied by two others—Sloth and Mother Cassandra—teleport to a world on the brink of destruction and abduct a surviving member of that world’s Avengers—T’Challa, the Coal Tiger. They bring the injured hero to Marvel Earth, where Proctor tells them that they must eliminate the Coal Tiger’s “template” on this world, whomever he may be.

Despite Magdalene’s protests, Proctor sends her and the other three Gatherers to infiltrate Avengers Mansion once again. The Swordsman uses his knowledge of the Avengers’ computer codes to learn about this world’s T’Challa (the Black Panther). However, the Gatherers receive a jolt from the Avengers’ security devices—the Black Knight and the Vision had deduced the intruders’ energy signature from past encounters and rigged an alert system should they appear again.

The Avengers (the Black Knight, Vision, the Black Widow, Hercules, Thor II, Sersi, and Crystal) confront the Gatherers, and the two teams battle. However, the Avengers are taken unawares by the “subtle telepathy” and energy blast of Mother Cassandra, who renders them unconscious. The Gatherers then depart for Wakanda to search for the Black Panther.

Thoughts
At last I begin to see why Fanfie and Cobie admire this era so much—I was beginning to wonder if our disparate generational tastes were too disparate. This is truly a well-told story and an excellent set up to a new story arc and mystery.

The issue opens with an alternate world’s Avengers. Alternate worlds are nothing new in comics, but what stands out here are the subtle differences between this world’s Avengers and our own: Captain America sports a full face mask and a different shield; Hank Pym (?) is still Giant-Man; Iron Man still wears his original grey armor; Hawkeye sports a goatee and wears his old circus outfit—andhe grew up with the Swordsman (at least on this Swordsman’s own world), whereas, on our world, the Swordsman was several years older and served as one of Hawkeye’s trainers in a circus.

And then there’s the Coal Tiger. It’s too bad Harras didn’t come up with more imaginative name—he must have strained to find synonyms for “black”.

Nevertheless, the attention to detail and nods to our Avengers’ past serve the story well—particularly since we see so little of these alternate Avengers, most of whom are dead. Our attention, instead, is focused on the Gatherers—the “villains” of the piece—who have a clear goal and a mission of some importance. We don’t know quite what that mission is yet—but we know the Gatherers must eliminate our world’s version of each of their members (as they did to Magdalene’s poor template, Marissa Darrow, a few issues back) or something truly bad will happen—something tied in with our Avengers’ own Sersi.

The revelation that Sersi is somehow connected to this mystery provides a nice twist and another incentive to keep reading.
We learn that Sersi’s fellow Eternals are worried because they haven’t seen her in some time; however, she dismisses their concern and goes to an Avengers meeting. Here we learn about the Avengers’ plans to capture the intruders who have mysteriously breached their mansion. Sersi arrives after the meeting and implants a kiss on the Black Knight, who welcomes her affections as a distraction from his own feelings for Crystal.

All of this moves along seamlessly. Sersi is used to great effect here as the character who ties all of these scenes together. I’m less satisfied with her developing triangle with Dane and Crys, though, because it feels like a teenaged soap opera. But it’s nice to have some interaction and subplots develop among these characters.

(Speaking of subplots, I do like how Natasha handles Herc’s hesitancy in calling Taylor Madison. Like Herc himself, though, I don’t understand why he is plagued with doubts over calling Taylor. Herc, an immortal demigod, probably has been no stranger to women throughout his long life, and Taylor, so far, has not distinguished herself as anything special. As with his incredibly obnoxious boasting during Kaminsky’s story, Herc exhibits whatever personality traits the writer demands of him.)

In addition to developing the plot, Harras does something else quite well here: He makes us care about the Gatherers as much as we do about the Avengers. We learn in their interactions that the Gatherers are not stereotypical villains, even though their mission clearly involves murder. The Swordsman in particular exhibits much more nuance and personality than I recall his “template” doing so.

The battle goes pretty much as expected, though it is well choreographed, and ends with an appropriate twist. The Avengers can’t win so soon, so Mother Cassandra shows us why she’s along for the ride.

All in all, a very good start to this arc and one that induces me to read further.

The Epting/Palmer art is excellent throughout, though I have to make two minor complaints. The Black Knight in his new jacket just looks silly, and Herc without the beard appears to be missing something. Characters' appearances are "updated" from time to time, but these two miss the mark.

YAY!

I'm so glad this issue made such a good impression on you overall, He Who, and that now you can start to appreciate what Cobie and I see in this run.

Re: the love triangle being like a teenage soap opera, Wanda, the original Swordsman and Mantis were not exactly models of maturity. Vision came off by far the best in that quadrangle, IMO.

Re: Dane in the jacket, I don't entirely disagree, but I love the way the jackets look on the lady Avengers.

Re: clean-shaven Herc, I reiterate that my favorite Pre-Harras Herc was the clean shaven one from the Roy Thomas/John Buscema Avengers.

Some general thoughts on these Avengers, now that the lineup appears to be established:

It struck me that three of these characters--the Black Widow, the Black Knight, and Hercules--were always on the periphery of the Avengers before. Dane Whitman first appeared in Avengers 47, and adopted the Black Knight identity from his late uncle in the following issue, but didn't join the Avengers until #71. Since he was based in England, he appeared only a few times after--in #84 and 100, if memory serves--before being turned to stone and choosing to reside in the 12th century.

Dane returned to the present in # 225-226, but even then remained only an occasional player.

The Black Widow and Hercules both became guests of the Avengers in the 30s and figured prominently into several stories during that period. However, the Widow "retired" after the death of her husband, the first Red Guardian, and turned down a chance to join the Avengers. Herc, meanwhile, was promoted to full Avengership in #45, only to resign when his year-long exile from Olympus ended in #50.

As for Madame Romanoff, she finally accepted an offer to join the Avengers in #111, but resigned the next issue--she was trying to work out her feelings toward Daredevil.

So these three characters were always on the sidelines of the Avengers, which is not a bad thing. In the real word, not everyone is cut out for membership in a given team. Some people are more committed than others. Some people--despite their best efforts--simply don't work out. The Avengers' history is full of characters who fall into the latter category: Dr. Druid, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, the Sub-Mariner. Despite the team's open-door policy, not every hero can or should be an Avenger.

So, it's odd to see these three ex-periphery characters be treated as central to the Avengers. It leads me to wonder what changed in their lives that they were willing to make this new commitment. Harras has not addressed this yet, and I think that's one of the reasons why I find Dane's behavior toward Crys and Sersi so juvenile: I simply don't know enough about him to know why he does anything he does.

To complicate these matters, these three are joined by Sersi and Crystal, who, for all intents and purposes, are brand new, and Thor II, who (appearances to the contrary) is also brand new--and, oh yes, the Vision.

Thoth and I have mentioned how illogical it seems for the Vision, who professes to have no emotions, to remain on the team. It seems even more illogical since this team bears so little resemblance to any previous team he was affiliated with, both professionally and emotionally. In fact, in most of these stories Vision doesn't have much to do except remind us that this is still the Avengers. (At one point, he was team's mascot--appearing next to the title on the cover. Of course, he looked very different then.)

I guess my point in all of this is to remark that it's an interesting experiment to see an Avengers team which is so radically different from the established norms of the team. It drives home the Avengers's organizational nature: independent of any given member or core group of members. And it reminds me of the various rock bands I've mentioned previously, which also underwent numerous personnel changes (sometimes with only one or even no original members remaining).

However, Yes just doesn't feel like Yes if Jon Anderson's not involved, and Jefferson Starship was so centered on the musical and personal relationship of Grace Slick and Paul Kantner that Slick's absence for these last 20 years makes it seem as if the band is trying to recapture something irreplaceable. Likewise, this new Avengers lineup conveys the sense that these newcomers are simply holding down the fort until the "real" Avengers return.

To me, this team hasn't really gelled as a team yet, even though Harras has now had more than 20 issues to establish them as such. (Granted, some of the members didn't join until later.) I'm hoping the team does gell; nothing's worse than watching a patchwork group of musicians try to reclaim a glory that wasn't theirs to begin with.

It's an interesting perspective, He Who. However...

...the only member of this lineup that Harras brought in was Crystal. Sersi and Black Widow were brought in by John Byrne (the former at executive editor Mark Gruenwald's urging; he seemed to have a strange attachment to her, having used her in his Captain America run -- unfortunately, for all the good things that can be said about Gruenwald the editor, he was a terrible writer, and Sersi didn't come off well in either her Captain America appearances or her Pre-Harras Avengers appearances IMO), while Hercules, and Dane were brought in by Larry Hama. Vision was in his sorry state thanks to Byrne, and Thor Substitute was a creation of then-EiC Tom DeFalco, deputizing for the real Thor.

So, basically, Harras had to make the best of the hand he was dealt. I have no idea whether he'd have preferred to have a more traditional lineup and, if so, whether office politics made that impossible at the time.

Towards the end of Harras' run, two characters have a conversation about taking the team back to basics -- and this was long before Busiek entered the picture. I can see the commercial sense, but it still feels to me like a cop-out, not just because I love this particular era, but because the Avengers had been a consistently fluid entity up until then. But then, Marvel in the second half of the 90s was pretty much retreating from innovation and experimentation in favor of retrograde nostalgic crap (ironically enough, with Harras as EiC. Who can say how such an experimental writer could also be such a reactionary editor?)

Thanks for the background info, Fanfie.

Since Harras is the custodian of the Avengers during this run, I think it falls on his shoulders to make the team feel like a team and to make each Avenger a distinctive personality, regardless of which characters he was required to work with. So far, he's only done that with Crystal and, to a lesser extent, Sersi, I think.

I love the idea of this version of the team being an example of "innovation and experimentation," though. We'll see how it plays out.

Actually, "peripheral" Dane and Herc were pretty darned prominent during Roger Stern's era on the book, as well--particularly after Stern was joined by Buscema and Palmer. Hama certainly didn't bring them aboard as Fickles states. So I'd say that they were now fairly established members by Harras' run, at least beyond the short runs Huey cites.

I'm glad you said that about Dane and Herc, Lardy. I'll admit it had slipped my mind.

What I should have said in my previous post was that Hama brought them back in after they'd been written out of the team a few years earlier, Herc by Stern and Dane by Simonson.

So much of the Stern era remains dim to me. I recall Herc's beating at the hands of the Masters of Evil, but I remember virtually nothing about the Black Knight's involvement.

However, I think my central point is still valid. These characters had gone from being "also rans" to becoming main players. Whether or not that's a good thing remains to be seen.

Perhaps your next re-read project should be the cream of the Stern era, He Who? (Roughly 250-285; I include the five pre-Buscema issues because that's when Dane and Herc join the team, and they're pretty good stories despite the art.)

I look at Dane like this: he goes from repressed (and possibly emotionally arrested) scientist to superhero to warrior during the Crusades in virtually no time at all. That's bound to shake a person up. He then returns to the present day, and perhaps as a result of such dramatic (and possibly traumatic) events in his life, he shuts down emotionally. His most distinguishing development during the Stern era is an unrequited crush on the Wasp, who not only doesn't pick up his singals but actually reprimands him for what she considers borderline insubordination during the Masters of Evil crisis (an admittedly tense time ripe for misunderstadings.) Then, through the scheming of Nebula and Dr. Druid, he's kicked out of the team, has some more adventures, and finally returns to the Avengers. Being an emotional adolescent, he adopts what he believes to be a tougher, more assertive stance in the hopes that women will find him more attractive that way. It works with both Sersi and Crystal, but at what cost to his well-being? I can't say anymore without spoiling what lies ahead.

Avengers #355
Alternate Earths in disaster are nothing new in comics, stretching back to the earliest sci-fi and monster stories through Silver Age DC and on to Alan Moore's Captain Britain.

Harras gives us a few nice touches:-
It's quick. He sets the scene, explains what is going on, and gets the team in and out.

We get a nice reveal concerning the alternate Cap to set the scene. A small touch was all that was needed. We also get some information on the returned Swordsman built into the scene as a bonus.

Not all of Protor's team are alternate versions. We have Cassandra and Sloth. The closest I can think of to them would be Destiny and the Beast. There's also a nice link between Proctor's image of Sersi and the version on our Earth.

We then get to see Sersi's new, improved, costume. In addition, we see more jackets spreading around the team. When they were part of Giffen's Legion uniforms, they didn't really work out. By the time each member had modified them, the title had moved on. Here, it's less ambitious with only the addition of the jackets. But each member is more distinct with their old costumes underneath.

Behind the new looks there is the brief but ominous warnings of the sprite to Sersi. It looks as though the Supreme Intelligence adventure could have another repercussion.

If it were a female cast member adopting Dane's meeting pose and dress, there would have been letters.
The Dane/ Crystal interlude has promise. But if Dane can't remember her name in his clunky inner monologue, calling her "woman", then something's not right. Neither is his continuing a kiss with Sersi while keeping eye contact with Crystal. It's not fair on Sersi for a start. Not to mention that if Dane was remotely interested in pursuing Crystal he could have ended it at any moment.

More suplots! Hercules presumably ill fated romance gets some movement. This makes two scenes with Natasha doing things! Actual things! A very welcome change. Magdalene shares a similar survival to the Swordsman and possibly the others. It's still odd that they are following Proctor's commands to possibly destroy other beings.

There's a lot more team cohesion in this issue, which presents itself in rare teamwork when facing Proctor's team. In the end, the Avengers are taken out far too easily here to allow their opponents an escape to the next plot point. There's still that tendency to overpower the villains. It was the same in the first few pages when they captured the Panther analogue.

This is possibly the most balanced issue so far. The main plot weaves between the steady progression of previous subplots. The Vision (and Alt-Thor technically)is the only one who loses out a little this issue, but he still had an important part to play in creating the trap to catch the Swordsman & pals.

DOUBLE YAY!

So glad that you, like He Who, found a lot to like about this issue, Thoth.

Thanks for your insights on Dane, Fanfie.

Ironically, the Black Knight is a character I always wanted to sympathize with and like. First, he had one of the coolest costumes ever, and what adolescent boy doesn't like swords and flying horses? Also, the first Avengers storyline I ever read involved two teams' efforts to rescue him. Clearly, he was Special (with a capital S).

It's strange, then, that the things you've written about his Stern tenure are so blank to me, especially since some of those events are things I should be able to identify with (a crush on a teammate, being misunderstood, and being rejected). But somehow his post-return-to-the-present personality didn't resonate with me. Sometimes getting to know someone really is a turn-off.

I'm very glad to see you both enjoy the first issue of what I consider the "actual" Harras / Epting run that we always refer to. You can clearly see Harras has a grand design for his characters--both heroes and villains--with a lot for them to experience and and be changed by.

You also nail one of the key things about the Gatherers: they are not paper thin villains with cliche motives. They are actual, fully rounded characters and that makes their story much more interesting. Proctor remains somewhat mysterious for now, but you can bet he has his own complex background and motivation which will eventually come out.

Also, I know the jackets look silly to some, but hey, that was the times, right? I actually like Dane and Crystal in the jackets, and think they makes them look great. But that's certainly something where everyone's mileage may vary.

And on the topic of all of these characters previously being second tier or periphery...

Lardy and Fanfie have correctly pointed out that it was Stern's run that established both the Black Knight and Hercules as major, stalwart members of the team--on par with the Scarlet Witch or Hawkeye or the Vision in the past. And in the prior run before Hama, John Byrne clearly established Sersi as a stalwart Avenger, even though that one always felt the most odd to me.

So really, I think your feeling that HWW is more representative of your own reading experience and yourself than the actual roster over the years. That's not a bad thing either--I think part of the "magic" of reading and collecting comics over years and even decades is developing an almost symbiotic relationship with a series or franchise, to the point where you start to feel when things are right or wrong even if you're only going on gut instinct. I know I do exactly that on almost every Marvel and DC series I collect. I think that's the case here: you were greatly influenced by the 1970's Avengers and during those years, all of the current line-up besides the Vision were not really Avengers other than occasionally showing up for a big event.

As Fanfie has pointed out, most of them are really stalwart superheroes from the late Silver Age era: Black Knight, Vision, Black Widow and Hercules are major characters from the Thomas / Buscema run (Natasha really before Big John joined Roy). Crystal at the same time was a major, top-billed star in the Fantastic Four. The only Avenger who was not a star during that era is Sersi, who Harras clearly has big plans for. Cap & Thor work in and out of the series as well, as you've seen, and they were also big stars then, and now and all years in between. There's another 2 Avengers will join up (and I don't want to ruin the surprise even though you probably already know) that were also major players during the era.

For me, when this run was all said and done, the Black Knight in my mind is as much a "stalwart Avenger" as Hawkeye, the Vision or anyone else. And most of the others too--it's criminal that Crystal has remained under-utilized ever since Harras left the series. Everything about Crystal screams "STAR!", but I'm digressing...

Something else else anyone can agree on when they see this line-up during this era is that it's wholly unique. And on a series like the Avengers, that is always the best place to start. Because once you start going back to the well and trying to mimic the roster of the Englehart era or the Stern era or the late 70's which so many fans consider "classic", then you're immediately falling into the trap of trying to recapture the magic instead of creating your own.

Avengers 356 (Nov. 1992)

“Death In a Gathering Place”

Summary
Having been alerted by the Avengers to the Gatherers’ approach, the Black Panther prepares for battle but is nevertheless surprised when the first invader of Wakanda is his own likeness, the Coal Tiger.

The Gatherers arrive, followed in short order by four Avengers—Vision, Hercules, Thor II, and Sersi—who are transported by Lockjaw. The two teams battle, but the Swordsman starts to have doubts about his mission with the Gatherers. After the dying Coal Tiger appeals to his sense of honor, the Swordsman interrupts Mother Cassandra’s attempt to merge the Coal Tiger with the unconscious Black Panther. Their mission lost, the Gatherers teleport away, but the Swordsman is prevented from joining them by the Vision and Hercules.

Thoughts
As my brief summary indicates, not a whole lot “happens” in this issue, but what does happen is very well executed. The battle scenes are superbly choreographed and give us plenty of opportunity to get to know the Gatherers. The Avengers also start to gel as a team, with Vizh and Herc in particular demonstrating teamwork.

The climax and resolution involve the Swordsman’s change of heart. It’s a bit of a trope that the Coal Tiger is able to appeal to Swordy’s sense of honor and what it means to be an Avenger to win the day, but it works—and it’s a nice echo to the original Swordsman, whose undoing as a super-villain began when he first joined the Avengers back in issue # 20.

There are a few missteps along the way. Thor II disappears from the battle completely, only to re-emerge with the Wakandan elite strike force—but there was no indication that he had left the battle. Likewise, the Panther is shown charging Magdalene on Page 16, but the next time we see him, three pages later, he’s unconscious. We’re not shown what happened in between.

It’s also rather convenient that the “human” Avengers—the Black Knight, the Black Widow, and the absent Crystal—are left back at the mansion to recover from the effects of Cassandra’s mind blast last issue, and that the Avengers who go to Wakanda are said to still be recovering themselves, but, hey, it evens the odds a bit.

So, what we have here is a somewhat contrived plot that doesn’t seem wholly convincing, yet the script does such a great job of fleshing out the Swordsman and the doomed Coal Tiger that I mostly didn’t mind.

This is a very insightful observation, Cobie, and I'll freely admit there is some truth to it. Yet I also disagree somewhat.

A couple of years into my Avengers experience, the team underwent a renaissance with Swordsman and Mantis leaving, and Vizh and Wanda marrying and leaving (temporarily, as it turned out). The Beast and Moondragon came in as replacements and, before too long, the former became a "regular" Avenger, as did Wonder Man, following his resurrection.

They were integrated into the team naturally, allowing them to interact with veterans such as Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Jan, Hank, Vizh, and Wanda.

I do see a departure from that in what we've been offered so far in the Harras/Epting run. When Harras started, the team consisted of Cap, Herc, Sersi, Vision, Rage, Quasar, and the Black Widow. Characters dropped in and out as the plot demanded, with very little thought to developing them or their relationships with each other. (The exception is Rage, whose departure took two entire issues to tell.) In short, this team hasn't developed much of a "center" yet to hold it together in a believable way.

I take to heart your analysis about developing a symbiotic relationship with the book. When I started reading the book, many of the staple characters--the Vision (who joined in # 58), the Black Panther (# 52) and the Swordsman and Mantis--were relative latecomers who had become staple members along the way. Yet I was also reading Marvel Triple Action--featuring a very different lineup of Cap, Wanda, Pietro, and Hawkeye. All of this felt natural, I think, because the writers had taken some pains to establish relationships within the group (although maybe I was too young to question things. )

About the Black Knight and the Black Widow, etc., being "stalwart" heroes since the Silver Age, this is true to a point. The Black Knight, as I mentioned previously, was only a peripheral Avenger for a long time. (I believe Marvel had high hopes for him as a solo character, but he just never caught on; he had one solo story in Marvel Super-Heroes, if I remember right.) The Black Widow didn't really come into her own until she became Daredevil's co-star in the '70s. Hercules, too, was more of a supporting character in Thor than a "star" on his own.

In fact, I think the short run of The Champions, a team book which featured Herc and Natasha, illustrates this point. Neither they nor the other characters (Angel and Iceman) could really carry a book because they hadn't been developed as characters to do so. (The Ghost Rider was also a member of that team but never truly fit in, as I recall.)

I've always loved the idea that the Avengers do grow and change, and that their lineup is more fluid than most super-teams. I've always likened the Avengers to some of the rock bands I've mentioned previously. But time and real-life experiences have taught me to view things a little differently. Most rock bands are simply "brands" that are maintained for economic reasons (as well as, sometimes, artistic reasons). As long as someone with a claim of legitimacy owns the rights to the name, the group can continue, regardless of who is a "member." (In the Shoutbox, we were discussing the Little River Band, a group that truly has lost any connection to its original members.)

I also take to heart your thoughts and Fanfie's thoughts about the Stern era. Perhaps I should re-read it at some point.

However, there comes a point when one has to ask, what are the essential elements of a group's identity, and what needs to be present for the group to be the same group, even if the lineup has changed? It's a fascinating question and one without a clear answer. One could argue that the Avengers' identity developed over a long period of time, and perhaps was still developing at the time these stories were written. I respect the fact that to you and other younger fans, this lineup of Avengers was the Avengers. I'm looking forward to seeing if it develops as such for me, as well.

Just to reiterate: I was saying Black Knight and Hercules (not the Black Widow) were stalwart heroes of the Avengers during the Stern era.

Regardless, it will certainly be interesting to see where you stand post-#375. Some additions to the line-up will certainly sway you, which will be obvious in hindsight.

Clearly, I think almost everyone can agree on the idea that a superhero team has many innate elements about it that make it attractive to readers, and the changing roster element is first and foremost. It's one of those things that makes readers be drawn to superhero teams.

Actually, Cobie, what you wrote was "As Fanfie has pointed out, most of them are really stalwart superheroes from the late Silver Age era: Black Knight, Vision, Black Widow and Hercules are major characters from the Thomas / Buscema run (Natasha really before Big John joined Roy)." That's what I was responding to.

I stopped reading with # 378, so my reactions to that era may be brief.

Avengers #356

Wakanda. Where a man has peace to pose on a clifftop. Wakanda. Where there's no chance of a democratically elected Black Panther. Wakanda. Where phone signals reach.

Which is why T'Challa knows all about Proctor's team, well before they arrive. He's still knocked out by Cassandra, and has to be rescued by the Avengers. Or rather, he's rescued by the Avengers and Plot Convenience Pup. Where has Lockjaw been?

Back at the Mansion, The Black Widow participates in a scene for the second issue running, which is a record. Unfortunately, it's a scene that pushes Dane Whitman towards being the team's Mary Sue. It's not his fault he falls between so many character types.

He's a scientist and he wields a mystical blade. Since a comic book scientist is a general plot all rounder, Dane's involved in lots of things.
But the warning sign is every female member of the cast finding him attractive.

Even Natasha thinks he's charming. When she should be telling him that if he pulls a reckless stunt on her team, she'll place his family jewels in a jar and put it on the meeting room table. But instead, she's won over by his stubble. Or perhaps Dane's gaping abdominal wound reminds her of better days in the cold war.

So, although it's there to show us that Crystal talks to others about Dane, it doesn't really work for me.

It's back to Wakanda where Sersi gets beaten because...well...oh, and Hercules get punched into a cliff. Sadly both overpowered villains and Hercules' beatings continue. The Avengers may be weakened, but Proctor's crew are easily able to hold them off, even with their Swordsman incapable of taking part in the conflict.

Proctor's megalomaniacal talking to himself would suggest that he's set the Swordsman up as revenge against Magdalene's love for him. That makes a bit of sense as, apart from hitting Cassandra with the flat of his blade (always the flat, for the comics code), he's pretty much useless.

It gets to the point where we don't even see the Avengers being beaten. Perhaps the suspension of disbelief would collapse entirely if we see more, so they just turn up defeated. Even Lockjaw, which is hard to imagine against Sloth.

As the Gatherers retreat as their mission is botched from within, the Swordsman is left behind. Perhaps Magdalene will come back for him. I can't imagine the others caring too much, but Proctor would act if she went.

We didn't seem to learn a great deal more this issue. It seemed an exercise to get the Swordsman to fall into the Avengers' hands. So it fails to continue a lot of the promise in the previous issue.