Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

I think you've touched on the reason for my own difficulties with Dane's credibility. He fits whatever the plot needs him to do.

The few scenes in which Dane "works" for me are those in which he demonstrates his ability to observe and make deductions the others might have missed, such as back in 344 or so and, coming up, in 357.

In fact . . .

Avengers 357 (Dec. 1992)
“The Night Visitors”

Summary
To Jarvis’s displeasure, Marilla summons the entire Royal House kitchen staff of the Inhumans to prepare for the night’s festivities. Meanwhile, the Avengers interrogate the Swordsman and learn he is probably from an alternate reality where his memories of the team do not match their own.

The dinner party gets underway with Taylor Madison arriving and renewing her acquaintance with Hercules. Watching from afar, Hera delights in setting into motion her devious plan to have Hercules fall in love with Taylor. Meanwhile, Sersi arrives to the dinner party late and sweeps Dane away from Crystal. The dinner party otherwise goes well until the unexpected arrival of the Watcher, who, as usual, says nothing and then departs.

Elsewhere, Sersi’s previous date for the evening turns up dead.

Thoughts
This issue was published nearly 20 years before the premiere of Downton Abbey, yet it can’t help but evoke comparisons to the British television series. We’ve got the usual downstairs/upstairs shenanigans, with the former played strictly for laughs. While Jarvis fumes about his authority being usurped, the Avengers go along for the ride because they’ve got more important things to do: play matchmaker for Taylor and Hercules—and, oh yes, investigate the Swordsman’s story.

Like the previous issue, this one feels padded because not a lot happens and what does happen could have been truncated. We’re basically offered a different side of the Avengers—the social side. Just the same, the Swordsman mystery is dragging out beyond a reasonable length. All we really learn here is that he’s from an alternate reality, but the reader already knows that. It’s taking the Avengers awhile to catch up to speed, and it’s disappointing that this issue does not return to this plot, except for a brief computer update on the Swordsman’s condition.

Some of the Avengers’ personalities become clearly defined, at least. Once again, Dane’s scientific expertise is put to good use as he figures out what’s going on from the Swordsman’s outburst. Natasha takes charge of the party, proving that she is indeed the current chairperson. (When did this happen? There was only a brief mention of her status last issue.) Crystal plays the amused “upstairs daughter” (think Lady Mary or Lady Sybil of Downton Abbey) who tries to ameliorate Jarvis’ discomfit at his kitchen being turned upside down.

The Jarvis and Marilla scenes don’t really work for me, as the comedy is too broad for this book. The worst of it comes when Marilla leaves Jarv in charge of his own kitchen, and he thinks, “. . . a man could get to enjoy this.” Really, Jarv? Weren’t you in charge of the entire Avengers staff before?

Since nothing really happens in the main plot, subplots abound to inject tension. We’ve not only got Sersi as a possible serial killer (Sersi=serial; nah—Harras is too clever for such an obvious pun, isn’t he?), but also one of Magneto’s minions invades the mansion and decides that Luna is too human to live. Of course, this minion has the ability to make Marilla and Lockjaw forget she was ever there. And, oh yes, there’s the Watcher, whose pointless appearances are grating.

Harras does seem to be growing in confidence as a writer. I admire his restraint in forgoing lengthy exposition during the Swordsman scene. He does not explain, for example, that Vision is the green, red, and yellow guy in the hologram or who Mantis and Moondragon (really) were. Rather, he trusts the reader’s prior knowledge of nearly 20-year-old stories to understand the Avengers’ reactions to the Swordsman’s comments. (I wonder what readers who might not have been familiar with those stories made of this scene, though.)

So, “Downton Avengers” is a mixed bag for me. It was good to see the Avengers in a social setting and to get the feeling that they at last are coming together as a team. On the other hand, waiting a month to get so few crumbs on the Swordsman/Proctor story tried my patience then and is trying it now.

Thanks to all you guys for keeping this thread active while I've been dealing with...stuff.

I'll catch up on all your recent posts today after lunch.

Avengers #357

Never has Hercules needed a jacket more than this cover. From the Collector issues, I'm wondering what the Watcher will give away in a chatty moment this time.

I've some mixed feelings about the opening pages. I like Crystal's dialogue, and I've no objection to the lighter tone. But, I've already expressed my dislike for Marilla. Also, the Avengers most flexible asset is Jarvis, so seeing him stunned into silence doesn't do him any favours. Tat it goes on for a number of panels, means that for all the development of him, there's a glass ceiling of comedy sidekick for him.

Back in the main plot, the Avengers ask the Swordsman for some background on the doppelgangers. Widow does the whole "no physician we've brought in..." line. I thought those were the words to the summoning spell for Doctor Strange, but nothing.

Someone finally asks the Swordsman to stop bleating on about hating the Avengers, and tell them what he does remember through some picture games.

It's a problem with a lot of superhero comics. All the bombastic posturing means that no one seems to have a real conversation. It results in uneven jumps of logic through the story and ends up in self parody a lot of the time.

Time is something Sersi's date may not have a lot of as the Avenger is giving off some vampiric signals.

Hercules puts some clothes on. Let's hope it's his new costume. The Mighty Tuxedo: Son of Zeus!

Typing of Zeus, he seems to have stolen Hercules' beard for himself. Who knew there was a subplot there?

As the two look down from Olympus on the romantic subplots (Herc/ Maddison & Dane/ Crystal) below, we're reminded of Hera's own agenda. She is going against the wishes ("sacred proclamation" used here, if you're a classical mysoginist) of Zeus here, so there should hopefully be a good reason for her to take the risk. Traditionally, the last one to obey these things is generally Zeus himself. He'll be off after someone in the form a swan or some such before long. (thothkins resists swan song comment and sticking tongue out at Cobie )

As they go to dinner we see familiar character traits. Sersi is dominant. Dane prefers Crystal but is too weak to resist even when in the same room. Crystal's interest in Vision returns, and the Vision's fake emotional repression is shown.

Credit to Harris for then promptly bringing a lot of that up at the dinner table (and not as a result of the literally Inhuman cooking). If anything, Sersi seems a little gushing in her switch between emotions. I'm thinking this is on purpose, so no issues there.

In the Justice League, I think the Phantom Stranger always wanted to join. But he's one of those people who has to be practically begged before he would accept. People are busy enough with their own feelings, and don't often go to such lengths. If they do, sometimes the person will become a firm friend once they are in company for a while and lose those rough edges. Sometimes, and mostly if those initial invitations aren't pressed, they will build a small retreat on the Moon and tease people with cryptic appearances while really craving company. One such person calls himself the Watcher. The being who spies on and ruins many a dinner party.

I was expecting Sersi's date to be a little more emaciated, with the life sucked out of him. Dane better hope that he keeps any dates with Sersi to crowded places at all times.

For a team that have only shown flashes of coherence, Harris is resting on his laurels in a whole issue devoted to celebrating the fact they're still together. It honestly reads like relief he's got rid of Alt+Thor to get the cast he wants. A few of the subplots are mentioned, but without much progress. It's a holding issue in a title whose main storyline is taking far too long.

Looking forward to your thoughts, Fanfie.

I have no objection to Marilla. In fact, I like the idea of another domestic coming in and challenging Jarvis's primacy. But I agree: It's going on too long and doesn't portray him in the best of light.

Back in 350, the short story which we all glossed over (and deservedly so) had him pinning a note to her back. This is the guy who's been in charge of the support staff of the greatest heroes on earth, who is entrusted with who knows how many national security secrets, and who has survived countless invasions of super-villains (not to mention his own beating at the hands of the Masters of Evil), and all he can do when another servant disrupts his order of things is pin a childish note to her back? Truly not one of his finest moments.

I keep making semi-deliberate comparisons to Downton Abbey. If you (and others) haven't seen that show, I highly recommend it. Jarvis's portrayal in these stories is similar to that of Mr. Carson, the butler, who is entrenched in the old world way of doing things and finds his view of the world challenged by the arrival of the telephone, for example, or members of the aristocratic family getting jobs. Still, Carson maintains his dignity and gradually adjusts to such changes. Jarvis not so much.



Very true.



I hadn't thought of the Watcher as being the Avengers' Phantom Stranger. Maybe all they have to do is offer him membership and he'll go away.



Again, you've got a great way of putting this, thoth. It does feel like Harras is resting on his laurels. For example, he tells us that the team has come together instead of showing it.

If only. Was it Universe X, where the other Watchers finally got sick of him doing everything but just sit and watch? We're lucky this is before twitter:-

I cannot interfere, but it was Galactus (@Impartial)



The poster on the last page is the perfect illustration of this. Having them together in a group shot is supposed to truly show they're together. I would have hoped by this stage for a fully functioning team with tactics, teamwork and a few completed subplots under the bridge to show that. But it still feels like we're closer to the start than the end of those things.

I think there's been a deliberate attempt over the past 20 years to downgrade Crystal to a virtual background character. I assume it was initially to do with Harras stepping on people's toes, but all of those people are gone from Marvel now, so all I can think of is a prevailing anti-first-half-of-the-90s sentiment. I look forward to when Cobie's generation, the fans born in the 80s who came of age in the first half of the 90s, take the creative and editorial reins and undo these petty vendettas.



Exactly. And for a book like Avengers, which was forever evolving during its first 31 years of existence, such an approach is wrong on every level, in my opinion.

That's something I would argue fervently. I reiterate that the fluidity of Avengers membership was what set it aside from other team books. People are always evolving and changing in real life, always coming and going, in and out of each other's lives, so why not in superhero comics, too?

Regarding 356, it's impossible for me to be objective about that issue, since it was the very first "current" issue of Avengers I ever bought. I greatly enjoyed the Black Panther's guest appearance (that was part of the reason I bought the issue in the first place), the freshness and ambiguity of the villains, Epting's portrayal of the Wakandan flora, the mystery of Proctor, and the Swordsman seeing the light thanks to the Coal Tiger.

Regarding Dane as a potential Mary Sue, I do think that he's falling into that danger at this point, but the fallibility he will show in issues to come will disprove that notion. More I cannot say.

Regarding 357, I think it's notable for being the issue where Epting really comes into his own as a master of characterization, as well as the issue where Palmer's inks feel the least intrusive.

I love all the soap-operatics taking place in this issue, as they're my favorite thing about superhero comics, and I think they're especially well-executed here.



I confess, with some embarrassment, to not remembering. It may have been in Captain America 401, the post-OGS issue where Cap left the team.



I was one of those readers, and it made me want to read those previous stories.



Good old foreshadowing. That's all I'll say.



I think that's a fair assessment. But I look at it more like the teams from 300 to 342 being so bad, that this one is a relief.

Harras didn't write that story. If anyone should take the blame, it's Macchio, for not rejecting that story.

There was a time when I agreed completely with this outlook, and, to a degree, I still do. But I'm coming from a different place these days. My experiences in studying writing and story telling have taught me to appreciate the differences between reality and fiction. When one reads a story (especially a super-hero story), one generally doesn't want a true-to-life representation of the real world. (Shooter tried something along those lines with the New Universe; it didn't work.) Readers tend to expect something better--an idealized version of the world, perhaps (hence, super-heroes), or something that shows what it all means or what we can learn about ourselves. At the very least, there should be some point to everything which happens in a story other than "that's the way it would happen in real life."

Real life can afford to be random; stories cannot.

With that in mind, changes in a comic book team lineup must make sense. They have to contribute to the overall "whole" of the story, not appear to be random. Too many changes in the Avengers' lineup over the years have come from political reasons--a new writer or editor doesn't want to deal with certain characters, so those characters are brushed off to the side. That's understandable, but it falls on the writer's shoulders to make each change believable and show how it contributes to the overall story.

So far, some changes during Harras's tenure have been more believable than others. Crystal's transition seems natural--an outgrowth of her declining marriage and desire to do something new with her life. Other changes, such as the Black Knight's presence and Vision's continuing presence, as we've discussed, seem to have been given little thought.



You do a wonderful job of pointing out the pluses of the story--things I tend to overlook because I'm more focused on the writing than the art.

I, too, enjoyed the Black Panther's guest shot. It featured him in a more significant and believable way than his role (along with Hank Pym and the Beast) during the Brethren story.



Did you know who Mantis and Moondragon were before you read 357, and, if not, did that scene confuse you? I'm genuinely curious because it relies so much on fans' prior knowledge.

It did confuse me, but in a good way. I didn't know who Mantis and Moondragon were, but I think it was a clever way of Harras telling readers, "Hey, this team has almost three decades of rich history. Why not investigate further?" And that's just what I did, even though the Engelhart issues were not available in trades at the time, nor were they available in floppy reprints like a lot of the Roy Thomas issues were.

As I'm typing this, I'm remembering that a back issue I had purchased of the 1982 Avengers Fantaco special was an invaluable resource in those Pre-Internet times, with interviews, overviews, articles, and an issue by issue guide complete with creators and brief notations of the villains and/or important plot points.

Also, I bought back issues of Marvel's Official Index to the Avengers, which covered issues 1 through 144, and was beautifully produced, with cardboard covers, good paper, full-size reproductions of all the covers, and insanely detailed summaries.

Ahh, memories...

When I first read it, I had absolutely no knowledge of Mantis nor any knowledge of the Swordsman's superhero career. I had no problem keeping up with the story and all it did was give me a thirst to fill the gaps in my Avengers knowledge from the Silver Age to the then current issues--which I of course did.

The Legion and the X-Men were the same way. Casual references in story to their immense history and unanswered questions only enhanced the experience. Most readers aren't bogged down by that kind of history or continuity I think (except old fuddy duddies).

I'll gladly confess to being an old fuddy duddy. I think I've earned the right to be a fuddy duddy by still being alive.

Thank you for sharing your reactions to the Mantis/Moondragon information, Fanfie and Cobie. It reminds me that I, too, was impressed by the Avengers history (only ten years long at the time!) when I started reading, yet I also felt left out when references were given that I was expected to know. I've already mentioned the Cornelius Van Lunt connection.

In fact, it was the self-same Marvel Comics Indexes (and the later Fantaco special) that helped put it all in perspective. Those side projects performed an invaluable service lacking from the concurrent stories themselves. It almost feels like a cheat to have to read a story with a reference work handy, but that was part of the fun.

There is something about being a young comics fan whereby one is willing to accept things that an older reader might not. Call it an openness, perhaps, or freedom from bias--perhaps pre-experience and discernment. Marvel comics, both in the '90s and in earlier stories, relied on this condition of fans being so caught up in the wonder of it all that they did not question things too closely. There's nothing wrong with that. None of us would probably be fans if we looked at these stories with a critical eye the first time we read them.

Very well said, He Who.

Indeed. Sometimes, once in a great while, I feel that feeling again. That's what I think I'm chasing. With comics and other things. That joyful wonder that was so easy to feel as a kid.

Chasing that Silver Age wonder, as Barry Allen races further and further away...

Despite being a grizzled comics vet with a thousand issue stare, my recent experience tells me I'm very open to having a lot of fun with comics. From the stuff I put up on capsule reviews to Legion Archives. From '60s Charlton comics to early '80s comics.

I'd actually argue that there are things an older me appreciates, that a younger me wouldn't. Kirby, Ditko, Sekowsky, Swan, Infantino are all people I liked a lot more, the older I got. By "appreciates" I don't mean just critically or from a remove. I mean that feeling from the sheer entertainment and quality on the page.

An it's my feelings on quality that DC & Marvel have moved away from. I don't begrudge them the reboot or retreading old characters and plots. Mort Weisinger did the very same. Likewise with post crisis stories. I just don't think the quality of writing is sufficient and the editorial side of things definitely isn't.

But that just gives me pennies to spend on dipping into the back catalogues with issues I've never read before. The feeling is still there.

Tune in next week for another One Liner That Would Not Stop! - sponsored by Rambling Man walking boots.

While I knew bits and pieces of the Avengers, and had probably read a few issues, a book that pulled a lot of it into one place was:-



What it didn't have was much depth on a lot of the characters. Oddly enough, I still get a "meh" feeling about Mantis and Swordsman and a few other things even after seeing a number of flashbacks over the years.

I thought reviewing this run would give me a lot more depth to Hercules, Widow, Sersi and Whitman. So that the next time the Avengers reforms, I'd be disappointed to not see them on the roster. So far, that's still to happen. But I'm still hoping it will change.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Thoth.

You're not the only Legion Worlder who feels that way about Mantis. Set doesn't care for her either.

Hmmm...both of you use names of Egyptian gods as IDs...coincidence?

And the Widow has been a mainstay of the team for the past three years, thanks to the Marvel movie franchise, and to the acting talent of Scarlett Johansson.

It's not just her. There are any number of Avengers I'm indifferent to: Swordsman, Mantis, Stingray, Quasar...



It has been established that I'm the alt-ID of a figment of Set's imagination. But then, he doesn't know about the Time Machine....yet...



My sarcasmometer dosn't quite know which way to go there I had a look at an Avengers book last week. It would seem that everyone in the Marvel universe has joined and, technically, they've all been mainstays on the book for the last three years.

I'm tempted to make a joke about Jonathan Hickman, but I won't.

There's Avengers I don't care for, either. I can't stand Tigra, never been able to.

What could possibly have tipped you off that he wrote it

LOL



King of Krowded Kasts, that's our Jonathan.

And don't worry. You might not have made the Hickman joke, but the Fickles of umpteen other Earths did. They were all watching as the million Avengers from their Earths went through portals for Hickman's Infinite Avengers, millennia long Kosmic Krossover.

Even my Non-LW friend Matt, who has generally been very pleased with the Hickman Avengers, has agreed with me that there's something cold and detached about Hickman's mainstream writing.