Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

So for the past few weeks, I've been picking up where I left off on my Marvel Masterworks collections of Amazing Spider-Man. I used three black & white Essential collections and the majority of the Spider-Man: The Original Clone Saga TPB to read ASM issues 68-150, plus a few Giant-Sizes and odds and ends. This period covers the remainder of the Romita era, the interim Gil Kane era and the first third or so of the Ross Andru era on art and the finale of the Stan Lee era and the entirety of the Gerry Conway era on scripts.

There's WAY too much material to cover anything like an issue to issue review, but here are some thoughts I have on various aspects of the run:

Romita
I was pretty surprised how little he drew of the book without a lot of help. There were lots of issues where Jim Mooney and even John Buscema (often, all three) were credited. You can certainly argue that the look of the book was pretty consistent throughout, which speaks to Romita's influence, but I was a little disappointed. I'd previously listed him with Curt Swan as my favorite Silver Age artists, but my ASM re-read/read has me squarely in the Ditko camp, now. (Yes, I know Romita stepping back was largely Stan Lee's fault, as he wanted Romita to so a lot of Marvel covers and art-direct much of the line, but it's still a factor for me.)

I don't mean to put Romita down, but the previous assessment was based on not having read the majority of the Romita era. Now that I have definitely read both, it's not really a contest. Romita had very few major characters created under his pencils. The stand-outs are clearly the Kingpin and Mary Jane with a few B-grade creations like the Rhino, the Shocker and the Prowler and some really forgettable ones like the Kangaroo. Ditko had a few stinkers, but most of his characters are still essential to Spidey's lore.

Romita's still a great artist and probably easily on Spidey's Mt. Rushmore of artists. I think his major contribution was using his background in romance comics to soften and define Peter and his supporting cast's looks. Spidey has always had soap opera as a huge part of its DNA, and Romita really nailed that aspect down for the book going forward.

Gwen
So really, for the first time, I got the opportunity to get to know our tragic Ms. Stacy. After seeing it all for myself, I can't help but think that Conway (and/or Romita) did the absolute right thing in killing her off. It's not that I hated or disliked her, but Gwen was maybe just a little too much like Peter--all hurt feelings and pining for him when they were on the outs as he always was for her.

Honestly, she rarely shows all that much personality. At first, she was kind of interesting. A little off-putting, even bitchy as she gauged her interest in Peter. When they got together, she just pretty much lost that and kind of just became "Peter's girlfriend". It seemed like they were on the outs more than they were in because Spider-Man kept coming between them. But on the (seemingly few) occasions that they were together and enjoying each other, they certainly looked good as a couple.

One of her better moments was when she dared to call out Aunt May for her excessive doting on Peter. It lead to a really weird sequence of events and, unfortunately, some regretful hand-wringing on Gwen's part for her role in hurting May's feelings. But I enjoyed her rare moment of personality.

Her death remains very powerful and shocking. In a very real way it is the most important thing about her--Peter's first great love whom he couldn't save killed by his greatest enemy.

BTW, contrary to JMS and Quesada, I'm definitely with Cobie in that I feel Peter and Gwen did consummate their relationship, even if it's not shown or implied. I think they finally did the deed after her return from England and their joyous reunion.

Captain Stacy
This was also really my first opportunity to experience George Stacy as a supporting character. I'd read his death before but never saw him as an ongoing part of Peter's life. I thought in a way that he was a more important character in Peter's life than was Gwen. He gave Peter that father figure that had been missing in his life since the death of uncle Ben in his very first appearance. I just thought he was a great and distinct character in the book for the duration of his stay, and I was really sad to see him go, even as I knew it was coming.

MJ
At first I really grew annoyed with Mary Jane as she seemed to make harry miserable in favor of vamping on a clearly taken-with-Gwen Peter. But as the story developed and she was there for Peter after Gwen's death, I began to see her in a different light. She was clearly written all along as kind of shallow, but it really reads more and more like a defense mechanism. I think Peter brought out real feelings in her which is why she struggled to maintain her distance from him. Ultra-needy Harry was just not any kind of relationship fodder for her. His drug abuse and later descent into madness were not her fault and ultimately showed he was wrong for her.

So unlike Gwen (imo), MJ was a more interesting love interest for Peter. They had things in common but also had some real differences. I don't think it's just chance that MJ has had such longevity in Peter's supporting cast (her upcoming nearly 4-year absence notwithstanding). She's interesting, likable and independent, even as she often does things we're not too crazy about. And of course, Peter eventually marries her.....until it's undone.

Conway
Gerry Conway does a really good job taking over as only the second regular Spidey scripter. Yes, he has a few duds like the Grizzly, the Mindworm and the like, but when you have the deaths of Gwen/Norman, the intro of the Punisher and the first Clone Saga on your resume, I definitely put this squarely in the good/great column when listing Conway's accomplishments as opposed to his failures. (He also had a good return to Spidey many years later on PPSM, imo.)

Other than those specific creations and highlights, I'll again commend Conway for his work with Pete and MJ. I also like how he handled Harry's story post Norman's death, even if Harry didn't make all that great a Green Goblin.

I think that maybe he left some story potential on the table by not exploring the Gwen clone a little more deeply. I guess maybe it speaks to how little there was to the character in the first place, but I would have liked to have seen Peter interact with her a little more. Plus, the Peter clone's life and the fight were both pretty brief, so it's little wonder future writers would later revisit the concept for better or worse.

I'm sure some readers think it's divisive but I liked the Aunt May/Dr. Octopus stuff Gerry did. It has some goofy aspects, but it also uses their mutual history as justification.

I absolutely loved that closed door on the last page of Conway's last issue, 149. We know exactly what it means both literally and metaphorically.

Jackal
I was a little surprised that the mystery of his identity wasn't milked a little more, Obviously, I knew who it was, but the mystery wasn't really teased like some others have been. For example, I would have thought teasing us that it might somehow have been a returned Norman Osborn would have been a natural. All we really got was some misdirection in the issue of the reveal that it might have been Warren's assistant instead of Warren. I'm honestly not even sure if reader's at the time strongly suspected Warren or if they maybe they thought it was a foregone conclusion it was him. It was really only obvious to me because I already knew it was him and had read the saga in Marvel tales as a kid.

I do like the idea of the Jackal and his decidedly creepy motivations fitting the identity. I also like his change of heart at the end.

I kind of hope Dan Slott revisits the character at some point again as he did in Spider Island.

Gil Kane/Ross Andru
Of these two, I prefer Gil Kane's work on the book to Andru's, though there is less of his to see here. Kane has really been growing on me in my recent '70s comics' explorations. His rougher line brought something distinct from either Ditko or Romita, while Andru mostly came off as a weaker version of Romita. Kane absolutely nailed the fateful 2-parter in 121-122 and created a distinct visual for new character Morbius. Andru was generally competent and again consistent with Romita's work, but there were a number of scenes and panels he noticeably fell asleep on and could have nailed better.

So I'm definitely in Kane's camp to this point, between the two. I need to get my hands on more Essentials to see if Andru grows in the rest of his run and changes my mind. He's still definitely a good Spidey artist but so far not as distinguished as the others.



So...I can't wait to get a hold of some more Essentials and pick up where I left off. There's still lots and lots that I haven't read in this era of ASM and lots to experience!

In my opinion, Romita made it possible for Spider-Man to become Marvel's most iconic character. As great as the Ditko issues are, and as much as I agree that most of the prime supporting cast members and the prime rogues are all Ditko's, it was Romita who made the series wholly accessible to readers who had previously been put off by Ditko's detached and cynical view of humanity.



Kane was an artist I really struggled with for a long time -- his sense of anatomy was second to none, and his layouts and designs were often inspired, but the roughness that you mention was very off-putting to me at first. Funnily enough, it was Romita who helped me learn to appreciate Kane, because whenever Romita inked Kane -- which was often, both on covers and on Spidey insides -- he smoothed out Kane's lines and prettified Kane's faces. To me, the Kane/Romita Spidey is the best of both worlds. Compare it to the Kane/Giacoia Spidey, and the difference is night and day.

Andru, in my opinion, always depended on having an inker who could do for his pencils what Romita did for Kane's pencils. He had amazing perspectives in his head which too often didn't quite come through on paper. Mike Esposito, who inked a ton of Andru's Silver Age DC work, was a good match for him, but by the time they were reunited on Spidey towards the end of Andru's run, they both seemed to be going through the motions most of the time, which was a shame. But Andru did pencil the first Superman/Spider-Man team-up, which was my introduction to Andru when I first read it in the early 90s, in the trade which collected the first four Marvel/DC crossover. For years, I couldn't quite figure out why Andru's other Marvel work didn't measure up -- although I gave a lot of credit to Supes/Spidey inker Dick Giordano and his assistants (including Terry Austin) -- and then, finally, I found out that an uncredited Neal Adams had redrawn a lot of the faces, especially on Superman.

I can't really disagree with you on any of your points. Romita did a lot for the book and Spidey's popularity, undeniably. I was a little worried that my Romita comments (and my Gwen comments, for that matter) came off a little harsh, but I think the "Mt. Rushmore" statement shows I still admire him. I guess it comes down to "creator versus next guy" where there will always be those who lament the original's departure. Many fans lament the loss of "weirdness" that was a hallmark of Ditko's style and approach that was pretty much wiped out by Romita and his successors. For me, it comes down to Ditko's creations vs. Romita's, Ditko's longevity as sole artist and his sheer innovation as a distinct voice in the field. Ditko simply had me in awe issue after issue while Romita was 'merely' a continuous pleasure to watch.

Fair enough.

Lardy, I saw you posted this on Thursday but have just been so busy that I wanted to wait until I could actually read the post before replying. As usual, I love your comments and insight, and particularly this time as you’re reviewing one of my single favorite periods on one of my favorite comics.

As I’m sure you’re not surprised, I’m in 100% agreement with you on the comments on Ditko and Romita, though I’ll also qualify that by saying that I absolutely love and adore John Romita Sr. He’s one of my favorite artists ever, and he’s also one of the nicest people in the comic book industry—one of the great artists who is not afraid to give other creators their due. I’ve seen many interviews with him and he’ll come right out and agree with your statements about Ditko, because that’s the kind of guy he is. I Ditko was really a genius and it presented itself at its finest when he was creating Spider-Man for those few years. Spider-Man as a character and a series is all Ditko, and few series maintain that clear association with their creator (like say, the FF and Kirby or Batman and Bill Finger). When Romita came in, his style was more aesthetically pleasing which certainly made the series even more popular. It helped that he made the characters more attractive and suddenly the soap opera elements were even better than they were before—so now was not only great for Spider-Man’s scenes but even better for Peter and his supporting cast.

It should be noted though that much like it’s been argued (and IMO, basically proven) that Ditko not only was the artist on the series but also 90% the writer, that during the years after, even when he wasn’t the penciler, Romita Sr. was actually the plotter on Spider-Man, not Stan. Even Gerry Conway admits that his first few stories he was just the scripter and that the issues were plotted by Romita. I think that says a lot about how John became the series caretaker not only in the artistic sense post-Ditko, but for years and years thereafter, ensuring there was a high level of quality and things didn’t go too far afield. He also was the one who gave the order to kill Gwen, no doubt.

Your comments on Gwen are very good. Gwen has always been my favorite since I was about 11 years old, and that’s probably *why* she’s been my favorite. When I was 11 or 12, Gwen just felt like the perfect girlfriend to me. Now that I’m much older, when I reread these issues, I can recognize when nostalgia (for my own childhood and my own old opinions) is winning out over common sense. Part of her mystique is that she did indeed die, and that is why I’ve always felt she should never be brought back and never have her story tarnished with marketing-driven crap like that awful JMS story a few years ago. Clearly though, Gwen and Peter had devolved into a cyclical situation where one of the two extremes was either happening or about to happen: they are tragically pulled apart by Spider-Man and react with extreme melodrama, or they are somehow able to get back together, and then react with extreme melodrama. Once was great, twice was nice, three times was okay but let’s move on, four times was okay I said enough , five times was what the fuck , six times was oh my god stop doing this and seven times was…well, you get the picture.

I also agree that if Gwen & Pete hadn’t done the deed by the time she came back from London, they definitely did then. There’s a reason Pete wanted to marry her so badly in #100.

Your comments on MJ are equally good. Gerry Conway gets the credit for turning MJ into a character that had much more depth than previously only ever was hinted that (though if you really try to read into it, you can see it there from day one). The scene in #122 where she shuts the door and stays with Peter is phenomenal, and then Conway gives her several excellent ones thereafter, particularly when Pete heads to Paris and then when he returns to the Clone Saga.

I’ve posted this before, but I think it’s the single best essay on the internet about Mary Jane and Peter Parker: http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/WhyYouMaryJane/WhyYouMaryJanePart1.html. It was written right after the marriage was retconned out and I’ve read it a few times. It not only gives phenomenal analysis on MJ and Pete, but also on Gwen, Harry, Flash and so many other characters.

Captain Stacy was always a favorite of mine. I especially love how the subplot with him and Joe Robertson proceeds where they discuss Spider-Man. Even as a kid, I always thought there was a clear implication that both of them knew the identity of Spider-Man. You felt like those scenes were thrown in there to say to the young readers: “yes, a lot of people misunderstand Spidey and blame him for things, but the best people know he’s a hero”.

Conway is a great writer and I hold his run in very high esteem. The original Jackal Saga / Clone Saga used to mesmerize as a kid. I would read and reread it as if it was the most important thing ever. But Gerry does so much more than just paint a large saga from the Goblin to the Jackal: he really takes Peter and the supporting cast on a ride that leaves all of them totally changed from the day he joined the series. And all of it is pretty much for the better. Few writers of ASM can say that. The Jackal was such a favorite of mine that when he eventually did return in the 90’s Clone Saga, that was one of those things that made me start to get on board for the whole thing.

Lastly, I’ve always been a lover of Kane’s since I was a kid because of his Silver Age Green Lantern and Atom stories which my Dad used to read to me. His artwork at Marvel in the late 60’s and beyond is terrific as he was finally able to cut loose and let his art become as stylized as he wanted it with no “house style” keeping him chained down. His best Spidey work is surely #96-98, the second “Green Goblin Returns” story that is best known for Harry being on drugs. Kane’s work is visceral there, and his tendency to show anger and outrage at its most extreme is put to good use. I wanted Peter to kick the living shit out of those hippie drug dealers and Kane made me feel like I was by his side doing it!

That being said, I’ve a fondness for Ross Andru as well. While not as dynamic as Kane or other Spidey artists, he did have a pleasant consistency to his art. I’ve always suspected that he enjoyed the Spider-Man aspect of the series immensely but was very bored with the Peter Parker elements of it; I have no evidence to back that up, but I think you can see—especially during Len Wein’s run—a distinct difference between Spidey battling the Punisher and Nightcrawler, or Stegron & the Lizard, than when Peter’s having lunch with his supporting cast or visiting the Bugle. I know that long before I knew the names of any Spider-Man artist besides Ditko or Romita that when Keith Pollard replaced Andru midway through Wolfman’s run that I used to notice an immediate difference in the style and felt it was more exciting.

I met Romita Senior more than once at 90s conventions, and to concur with Cobie's post, Jazzy Johnny is indeed one of the industry's true gentlemen. He once told me that he nearly drew one of the Fourth World books -- tellingly, he was wistful rather than bitter at the memory.



I have to agree that Andru was better at action than soap opera. And I'm glad you mentioned Pollard, whom I consider THE most underrated semi-regular Spidey artist. His work on ASM #200 is particularly masterful.

Totally agree on that. ASM #200 only gets better and better with age, and Pollard's art rises to the level of Wolfman's script.

You can see the impact of Pollard in the covers alone. Man-Wolf and Spencer Smythe never looked better! I totally agree he's underrated and just love his Spidey work. (A lot of his other work, especially Thor).

I appreciate the long, thoughtful response. Knowing you the way I do, I knew it would (eventually) come.



Again, I still have mad respect for Romita and what he did for Spidey. Nothing I've said re: Ditko vs. Romita is meant with even a shred of disrespect. For me to put him on Spidey's Mt. Rushmore of artists (hell, I'm not even sure whom the other two heads would be!) speaks volumes. I'm certainly aware that he basically plotted the book during his tenure as Ditko did during his own, but that still pulls the needle toward Ditko slightly because of Ditko's comparative innovations and creations during his time.

I know there's no argument between us, as we both agree it's Ditko, but I just want to make clear my admiration for Romita. Most of his run being previously sight-unseen for me, Romita was the preference precisely for the beauty and elegance of his images compared to Ditko. But actually re-reading/reading both entire runs virtually back-to-back for the first time with my more aged and refined tastes, this was quite an epiphany for me. Ditko's vision was so unique and defining that it was impossible for me to ignore.



My thoughts on Gwen were easily the ones I was most apprehensive to see your reaction to because I know how much you've expressed your love for her in the past. It's gratifying to see you basically agreeing with me. the article you linked (which I've now read two-thirds of--talk about LONG!) crystallizes my thoughts on how her character came across eloquently. It's interesting, though, how it blames her degradation on Stan when, I suppose, we can possibly place more blame on Romita as acknowledged series plotter during the bulk of her run.

It's really a shame that what started out as a smart, wily, sassy and inquisitive character mostly devolved into a boo-hoo factory. I kind of enjoyed her trip to the Savage Land with Peter and JJJ, though. Even though she became the obligatory girl in danger, she showed some spunk and enthusiasm for once at the prospect of some adventure and sharing in Peter's job.

There's also the odd fact that Gwen eventually adapted the same hairstyle as MJ, albeit (usually) with the addition of a hairband. (Romita laughably changed MJ's own style for a shorter cut that didn't suit her at all for, like, one issue that luckily didn't stick.) While I've always liked Gwen's best-remembered look, it was really strange to realize it wasn't really her own.



Ah, yep!



Yeah, that airport kiss was really breathtaking! It was a cheer-worthy moment. Particularly impressive was how clearly taken aback MJ obviously was by how it made her feel. Really, there were three pivotal moments in Conway's run for Peter and MJ: 1) her choosing to close the door and stay and comfort Pete after he tried to push her away in his terrible grief over Gwen, 2) that phenomenal, cathartic kiss at the airport and 3) that closed door at the end of issue 149, Conway's last. Just a perfect beginning-middle-end sequence to that phase of their relationship, with two closed doors as bookends.



Two-thirds in, it is very good and very comprehensive. It's much less an essay, though, and much more a term paper or thesis in length!



It's interesting that Robbie's suspicions seemed to be completely dropped from the plot or at least rarely ever referenced again after George Stacy died. Maybe it's for the better, as he may have been killed off at some point because of his knowledge. It was often the death sentence for various supporting characters and villains in comicdom.



I was actually a bit surprised that Conway left with 149. I thought he'd stayed longer, though 40 issues is good by any standard. He certainly left us wanting more, though, so that's a good tactic to take. You can certainly argue that Lee/Romita stories got pretty stagnant toward the end.



Both are clearly good Spidey artists and did some really memorable stories, and Andru's run is one of the longer artist tenures on the character. From what I've seen so far, though, he brought much less uniqueness to the table than Ditko, Romita or Kane did to that point.

Cobie, as the other only known current Spider-Man reader on the boards, I'm curious for your thoughts on The Clone Conspiracy. You know I'm a trade-waiter now, but I've read a number of spoilers and wondering whether it's possibly a blemish on Slott's run. I mean, most people wanted the whole clone thing to stay buried. Plus, it looks like a number of resurrections will remain, some of which aren't spelled out yet.

So is this a jump-the-shark moment for Slott? Be as spoilery as you feel like being. Like I said, I know the gist of what went down, just not whether it was a well-done read.

I just read it all in one sitting recently so it's still somewhat fresh in my mind. Overall, it had both good and bad elements, and I guess I'm still waiting to see what it all means--like what the longterm effects are going to be and if what we saw actually is what we saw. Is it a blemish on Slott's run? Hm...perhaps a little, but probably not really. "Blemish" is probably too strong of a word, because there were a lot of good Peter moments in the story.

I'll elaborate, and it will include spoilers.

There were actually a lot of good parts that made the story worthwhile that I think fans of Spider-Man will enjoy. First off, its a great arc for Peter Parker himself and touches on a lot of what's happened in Slott's run, and his themes of Peter taking on the entire weight of the world (especially when we see the difference between Peter's approach to addressing that and the Jackal's). Peter himself shines pretty nicely in the later issues of the crossover, and we see the true heroic elements of his personality in full force.

The second major highlight was Dr. Octopus plays a huge part in the crossover and we at long last get to see the follow-up to the Superior Spider-Man with both Ock / Pete interactions and Ock / Anna interactions, the latter of which I've been eagerly awaiting, as I know you are. And those are all close to perfect. So the Ock element of the story, which is really a hugely important piece of it, is fantastic. And using Ock here, so that obvious comparisons to the Jackal in terms of motive and willingness to cross lines, was well done.

There is also the novelty element of "every Spider-Fans dream" of seeing all the dead characters at once. I'll admit I was really hesitant to even read this, expecting it would be a kind of "don't go there" type sequence. But overall what it amounted to was seeing Captain Stacy & Gwen (two favorites of mine), Jonah with Marla, the Lizard with his family, a few cameo / one-panel nods to fans (Ned Leeds, etc.) and and artist Jim Cheung showing his skills with several double page spreads of all the dead Spider-Man villains, which was pretty awesome. All of these things for the most part are done pretty great, and I think that is a good representation of how Slott takes a plot that I really wasn't all that comfortable with, and surprising me with how he does it. (The plot point being the resurrecting all the dead characters as clones).

Lastly, there is some really good usage of Spider-Gwen, if you like that sort of thing, but I'm not really all that big a fan of the character. They also use Kaine pretty well too. The best part of these scenes is seeing teenage Spider-Gwen sets off Peter and Gwen (Clone) to have a really great multi-page sequence that is really funny and endearing. It creates a personal chemistry that Peter has never had with any of the Gwen Clones over the years as usually they are marked by ultra-dramatic hysteria rather than any quiet, humorous or personal moments. Those pages by Slott really show his love of the characters. And on the same note of Spider-Gwen and Kaine, other Spidey-allies appear, but notably for me (and you too I bet) is our boy the Prowler plays a pretty big part in the story. At first, I was worried about him in a huge way and then I really liked the small role he plays at the end.

So, as you can see, there's actually a lot of good. The part I'm not so sure of, though, is the use of Ben Reilly. Though I always knew and wanted Peter to return as Spider-Man in the 90's, I actually enjoyed Ben and liked him a lot, and liked that entire era as it was happening and then when I would reread it. So while Ben isn't quite sacrosanct to me, I was a little worried about how he would be portrayed. And perhaps with good reason, as I'm not quite sure at this point I can reconcile that portrayal to the Ben of the 90's. In this story, there is no mistake, Ben is the villain here and he's really creating and causing all the problems. So much so, that I really can't even accept that its Ben in a way; it's as though its another Spider-Man clone, or a clone of Ben gone off in another direction of who knows what. Slott spends a lot of time showing the difference between Pete and Ben, and while that makes Pete look great, it makes Ben look very bad, as he's the villain who is wrong and who has totally gone off into the wrong path. Anyone who fondly remembers Ben has a reason to feel kind of pissed about this. Slott ties it all together by Ben trying to recruit Peter and almost succeeding, but Peter ultimately knows its wrong because of Uncle Ben, which he proclaims Ben knows too since he never actually tries to bring back Uncle Ben. It's a really clever sequence and it works well for Peter and for the story, but once again, it does make the point that this is really Ben, and Ben Reilly therefore has become something truly villainous and irredeemable.

My other problem is the ambiguity of who lives and who doesn't and how this could be used by Slott or other writers to play fast and loose with things. Slott goes out of his way to kill off Gwen and Capt Stacy, and in the same vein make sure Ock and Prowler are alive and well (Prowler dying early in the story). But you have to wonder about the rest: almost certainly Martha and Billy Conners will be alive to put the genie back in that bottle, for instance, and it's hard to be excited about that as a potential cop-out, unless Slott delivers another stellar Lizard story (and he very well may do, which would be great and I'd be happy). But the thought of the Wraith or the Kangeroo showing up to battle Spider-Gwen as written by a writer I don't like and drawn by and artist I can't stand is annoying. This huge loose end is not a very comfortable place to be, and gets at what I was saying earlier in the post about not being sure yet. For all I know, Slott has lots of plans to resolve it, and I trust him enough at this point to believe that; if that's the case, I'm happy.

Kind of a rambling response, but I guess what I'm getting at, is overall its really not that bad, and actually a pretty good story. There is also a shitload of great character moments which make the story an enjoyable read. But there remains that big question mark of Ben Reilly which is hard to process at this point. I guess the coming Scarlet Spider series might answer that but it definitely makes the launch of that series kind of start on a downer note. Instead, I wish Ben somehow ended up not being the villain here, rejoins Peter to save the day, ends the story being alive and then spins out into his own title--on that upbeat note, I'd be pumped about a Ben ongoing!

All in all: Anywhere in the range of One More Day? Not even close. Probably better than all the Spider-Man stories between John Byrne's horrific run to Brand New Day. But in comparison to the rest of Slott's run, definitely not among his very best. And with enough good in there to offset most of the bad if somehow there is a long-term plan for Ben and the other resurrected characters.

I should add in relation to the coming Scarlet Spider series that its hard to get excited about it when there are a dozen Spider spin-offs already. I don't collect any of them and would prefer they all be cancelled as I really don't like Spider-Man being a "family" of titles. But that's just my tastes.

This is kinda how I thought it might have went down. Quality storytelling but murky feelings on the outcome. Didn't really think Slott had gone over the deep end, but I was concerned.

You may recall that the first time I left Spidey was during the Clone Saga of the '90s. The scene where Pete is so distraught over being a clone that he slaps a pregnant MJ who is trying to comfort him was one of the pivotal moments that got me out of Dodge. I missed the entire Scarlet Spider era and the subsequent Ben Reilly/Spider-Man run and only came back to see the end of Reilly and return of Norman.

So I'm not attached to Ben Reilly and his heroic personas and just kind of associate him with a regrettable, best-forgotten era of Spidey. It feels like Slott was tapping in to fans who feel the way I do and who wouldn't mind seeing Reilly villainized as his era often is.

Still, I would rather it had been the actual Jackal Miles Warren behind this story using Reilly as a patsy. I saw a spoiler for the first post-Conspiracy issue of ASM that almost does this but instead shows that this Warren was not actually a clone--and then apparently Reilly kills him off. That itself seems like a bad call on Slott's part, but I don't know if you've read that yet.

I do indeed recall the exact scene that caused you to leave in the 90's, and your feelings about the Clone Saga. Not caring about Ben Reilly one way or another really will eliminate the negative part of this story, I think. You'll probably end up enjoying the hell out of it, since a view of Ben as he is now, uncolored by the past, will let you really see what Slott is doing with Pete and Ben, and probably makes it much more effective.

Have not read the post-Conspiracy Jackal issue yet so am not sure. The Jackal holds a special place in my heart because I loved the original Conway Jackal saga as a kid (so much so that I was blown away when I read the Mantlo Carrion Saga for the first time and couldn't believe he had gone back to those themes). I liked the way he was used in the Clone Saga, though he was very Joker-esque...but it fit for the time. Plus, at that point, the idea of the Jackal coming back was a huge deal for me, as I was a teenager by then, and while still a kid, at the time I felt and acted like I was an adult so it was like a character from my childhood I thought I'd never see again had come back! Since Slott started to use him again, he's had his own unique take on the character. It's never been my favorite usage but still not bad in the sense that it presents plots that are good to showcase Spidey. Slott's done a lot better work with a plethora of other Spidey villains.

Cobie, if you happen to be lurking on the boards, I wanted you to know that I've finally read most of my Clone Conspiracy hardcover (all of the CC itself and the ASM crossover issues, but not the Silk and Prowler issues, yet).

I'd have to say that I found it pretty riveting overall and felt it was another good "tentpole" Dan Slott story (along with other events like Spider Island, Spider-Verse, Superior, etc.) which he seems to do a better job on than many other writers on big properties.

I can see all your concerns and compliments on the event. My mileage varies a little, but I think my overall opinion is similar to yours, though maybe slightly more on the favorable side.

This story really DOES play very well into Slott's themes he's explored throughout his run, especially Spidey's guilt over the deaths that have been collateral damage over his heroic career. Also, I've decided that this story was a brave choice and one that needed to be explored in some form or another. The clone sagas happened and were just too big of a part of Peter's narrative to just completely sweep under a rug forever. And the story was brought back in such a way that both puts the genie back in the bottle and also leaves the opportunity for more stories to be told. I think that most of the characters that needed to stay dead (Uncle Ben, Gwen, Captain Stacey, Jean DeWolff, etc.) did so while others that are too important to Spidey's story to stay dead (Ock and arguably Prowler, etc.) are back. I don't know if any story could resolve Peter's "no more deaths" arc better than this one. It was a brave choice by Slott.

Lots of good moments with some of the highlighted clones. The Gwen stuff here was more meaningful than any of the other Gwen clone stories. The way she gets to go out this time, for example, was a really nice moment, considering her original fate. Marla, Oksana, Vanessa, the Conners and Captain Stacey all stand out as serving memorable story purposes. Jonah had a great arc, for sure. The line he has to Spidey near the end is both funny and really sad.

That said, there were many missed opportunities, especially since most of the clones' fates are left ambiguous. Ned Leeds, for example. He and Betty needed a scene or two in this one, for sure. If he survived, we may get it. Otherwise...? I kinda hope he shows back up. His death was kind of meaningless in the end, so I wouldn't mind him re-entering the cast. Hopefully, the story will not be kind of written off or unmentioned from now on, because I would really like to see a definitive list of who is and who isn't. Like, who was the dead Hobgoblin if not the former Jack O'Lantern? And was that the Bart Hamilton Green Goblin? And even as a pretty knowledgeable Spidey fan, there were a few characters I didn't recognize, named and unnamed.

Ben Reilly....yeah, that was kinda iffy. I don't have the attachment you do to the character, but it did feel like a bit of a stretch, to say the least. On one hand, I think Slott tried to explain it with the account of how much torture Warren put Ben through killing and reviving him over and over again. But it still feels like there's a missing link that would make the transition more believable. I find it hard to see why he would want others to think he was Warren and why taking the Jackal identity would be something he'd want. And then, of course, being willing to kill Peter at the end, even if he believed he'd just resurrect him. I'm curious what PAD did with Ben in his subsequent Scarlet Spider series. Undoubtedly, some of the onus would fall on PAD to flesh him back out and reconcile Ben's past with his actions after the fact.

Overall, a good Spidey saga with some absolutely GORGEOUS Jim Cheung art! I'm overall glad the story was created, though it's not without some issues.

I've been following Amazing Spider Man. I picked it up for Immonen's art and it has been a fun high tech joy ride. Dr. Octopus looks pretty cool. Mockingbird co stars. The stories pretty much good guys versus bad guys, with little intrigue but, I like that sometimes. If you're attached to Peter as a mega industrialist, or hate him as one, then the past handful of issues are probably not for you. My following it is pretty dependent on the art and the action. It has been pretty accessible and easy to follow even if I've never followed Spider Man before. i'm not super keen on Peter as Tony Stark ... super scientist sure (!) but seems like they swapped out Tony (and the FF) for Peter Parker.

I also started Miles and followed it for a while and liked it. I liked how it seemed to be true to the original ethos of the character, that he's an underdog kid .. but they gave him a few friends, which may or may not complicate things. I trailed off though because the stories were pretty small in scale which was nice for a few but then not very exciting. Then they did this dimension hopping thing and his dad is a villain and I got confused. He didn't seem to get his own villains and IIRC was fighting Black Cat, sort of, and Miles' universe didn't really expand but depended on him being a Spider Man or team ups with others. Also the art changed and I didn't like it as much. I appreciated it for the first 12 or so. Also, Miles got caught up as a central character in the Civil War mini-series and he was taken to a dark and dramatic place and I wouldn't say that it ruined the character, just that I need a palate cleanser.

You know, this SPIDER-MAN thing just won't go away. I can't stand the character, I haven't read the comics in decades, and yet, somehow, I keep being dragged into discussing i with people who don't even know that Steve Ditko created him and wrote the first 41 issues.

From J. David Spurlock's "Wally Wood's Daredevil" group........



I mean, this is the most IDIOTIC thing I've seen in years regarding ASM. "Everybody" knows that "ye editor" STOPPED doing the finished dialogue on ASM with issue #110, and Gerry "kill 'em all" Conway got on the book with issue #111.

And it's a funny thing. If you look at those early Conway issue, what does it have? JOHN ROMITA is listed FIRST. Gee, why do you suppose that is?

Hey, remember when that selfish, stuck-up blonde (sounds like L**'s wife) Gwen Stacy got BUMPED off for no damn reason? I remember, SO CLEARLY, at the time, Conway going on the letters pages, and saying, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!!!!!" He said a "team of editors" had forced the situation on him.

Decades later, John Romita revealed the truth in an interview. He said, for the longest time, they weren't sure what to do with Peter Parker & Gwen. They'd already broken them up several times and gotten them back together. They didn't want to do that again. They felt Peter-- and his readers (allegedly) were "not ready" for them to get MARRIED. And then somebody-- MY guess is Roy Thomas, because he already had a long and growing track record of KILLING OFF other people's characters, suggested, "Why don't we KILL OFF one of the regulars? That'll shake things up!"

They went thru the whole cast trying to decide... until JOHN ROMITA suggested killing Gwen. His reasoning for doing this was, he was a HUGE fan of Milton Caniff. Caniff had KILLED OFF Steve Canyon's girlfriend in the newspaper strip, and "Readers talked about it for WEEKS!" So... Gwen it was.

Personally, I think Romita had RESENTED Gwen for years. When he took over writing the series back in ASM #39, one of the big things he did was finally introduce the mysterious Mary Jane Watson, who had been hanging around the friges for a long time during Ditko's run. Pete & MJ HIT IT OFF immediately. Clearly, they were meant to be together. But "ye editor" began pulling his usual "back seat driver" CRAP, and insisting that Romita do things HIS way. Yeah, that's the way to do it. FORCE your "artists" to WRITE for you, uncredited, UNPAID, then, DON'T LET them write the way THEY want to. Nice S.O.B. to work for.

So it was "Make Gwen prettier". Then, "Make Gwen nicer." (That's it, change her personality completely and recast the actress.) And then, "Have Pete & Gwen get serious." And when readers STILL insisted they liked MJ better, it was "Make MJ LESS attrractive." I still recall the issue when she turned up with curly hair, dressed like a HOOKER. It was hilarious.

So, with his boss FINALLY out of the way, Romita took his shot. DEAD Gwen. GOOD riddance. And suddenly, his boss, even though he'd given the story the okay, comes around and says, "Well... can't you BRING HER BACK in the next issue?" HONESTLY!!!!

So... decades later, the death of Gwen is somehow, insanely, considered a "classic", an important "turning point" in the development of Peter Parker, instead of the cynical, BADLY-THOUGHT-OUT marketing GIMMICK it really was. And guess what? GERRY CONWAY tries to take FULL credit for it. "Yeah, it was ALL my idea!" Riiiiiiiiiiight.

So... when somebody tries to say-- AT THIS POINT-- that S*** L** was the writer on ASM #125.... as they say, Allen... "It is to laugh."

Lardy, Cobie, other Spidey-following LWers,

Have you read ASM #800 yet? Just in case you haven't, I won't post spoilers, but I will say that I loved it, and it even took me back to that all-too-brief window of time, circa 1992, when I was enjoying almost everything Marvel was publishing, including the Spidey books (with Bagley on ASM, Saviuk on WoSM, and Sal Buscema on SSM, the last teaming Sal up with J.M. DeMatteis, a writer I run hot and cold with but whose SSM run definitely sizzled -- in fact, I've come to see SSM #200 as a bittersweet milestone for the Spidey mythos.) Most importantly, and thanks to the extra pages, I never felt lost at any point despite not having read Spidey regularly since the heartbreak of "Maximum Carnage" (which came immediately after SSM #200; see what I mean now by bittersweet?)

Dan Slott's tendency to come across in public forums as thin-skinned and defensive, along with what I consider the uneven quality of his overall output, had made it all too easy for me to take him for granted. When BFOB recently broke the news in this forum about Slott writing the upcoming F4 relaunch, my knee-jerk reaction was, "Iffy." But after reading ASM #800, I am totally psyched about F4 #1 on both the artistic (Sara Pichelli) AND writing fronts.

Having said that, Slott's also facing his most Sisyphean challenge yet -- to get me to buy the F4 regularly, when I have come to feel decidedly mixed emotions about the F4, and their overall place in the MU and in superhero comics overall -- but that's a discussion for a different thread.

I haven't read 800, yet. Since I get ASM in trades, it won't be any time soon.

But I've gone on the record numerous times praising what Slott has done during his long run on the book, and that isn't even including his run as one of the "brain trust" writers starting with Brand New Day. Even his "event" stories were pretty damned satisfying. I especially loved how his stories showed an appreciation for the breadth of Spidey's history, something that had gone by the wayside for a decade or so.

I will say that his post-Superior Spider-Man volumes with Peter being the successful head of Parker Industries haven't resonated as much with me as the run prior to them, but his stories have never been less than good.

Beyond his excellent work on Spidey, though, what gives me the most hope and excitement for his upcoming FF run with Pichelli is his work on the Silver Surfer with Mike Allred. All the cosmic sensibilities and sheer wonder anchored by the humanity and sense of family he showed there makes him imminently qualified to be one of the rare writers to actually "get" the FF and what they are really all about!

I bought 800. It was ten dollars.


:I


I haven't read it all yet, just skimmed through. I've been reading this SPidey lately mostly because of Immonen's art. He's one of my favorites, he can do action well, he's a former Legion artist, and ... he draws a very agile wiley nimble Spider Man in all these contorted poses. I'm not usually a Spider Man comic buyer. I got Miles for about ten issues but other than that I haven't bought a Spider Man comic since probably 1989.

But I have liked the stories actually, I like how Norman Osborn just hasn't ever gone away and seems like the book could be titled Peter and Norman. I actually liked his latest twist on the Goblin.

I also liked the Dr. Octopus storyline and sadly the destruction of Peter's company. I didn't like Peter as a big industrialist like Tony Stark so much but I realize the character needs to grow up a bit. I do like all the tech that has been around though.

I also like a lot of the supporting characters, and how they've been showing Peter's family and background characters a lot.


That said I will probably leave when Immonen does ... I did buy a few with Caminucoli (sp) as artist.

I read 800 finally. It was cool. There were some nostalgic bits I really liked personally, even some recent previous artists came back.

I was feeling it was a bit long while reading but when i finished reading it, I was really satisfied and felt like I had watched a blockbuster super hero film.