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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692
Humanoid from the Deep
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Humanoid from the Deep
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692 |
First off, let me preface this thread by saying this is NOT a place to just slam the 5YL Legion. I actually enjoyed it for about the first 12 issues or so and even after that there were some good moments. However, a LOT of it rubs me the wrong way and there were a lot of moments that just had me thinking "WTF were they thinking?!" For me, the death of Sun Boy rubbed me the wrong way. It just was so graphic and seemed almost mean spirited. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.gyazo.com/87d20911608bb2624afd2ce07aa21932.png)
Keep up with what I've been watching lately! "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
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Joined: Jul 2005
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
S. Erin.
I consider myself LGBT friendly, and that's the exact reason I think it's one of the worst things about 5YL. Erin's portrayal was an insult to the entire transgender community -- once Al Gordon gave TMK the idea, they seemed to adopt the attitude of, "Let's put that upstart tranny in hir place, and then turn hir into a real man." Sickening.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692
Humanoid from the Deep
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Humanoid from the Deep
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692 |
Interesting choice, Fanfie. I have no problem with writers wanting to make Jan bisexual, but the way they retconned Shvaughn's past was just too bizarre and had unsettling undertones for me. Transgender issues isn't something that I have a problem with in comics, but since Shvaugn had sex with Jan in the past under false pretenses as a woman, that qualifies as rape in some ways.
Last edited by Braal Janitor; 10/04/14 02:55 PM.
Keep up with what I've been watching lately! "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
And they not only made hir a deceiver, but also a stalker. Horrible.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692
Humanoid from the Deep
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Humanoid from the Deep
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692 |
Another one: Lightning Lad has actually been Proty this whole time ![[Linked Image]](http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/garthdeath5.jpg)
Keep up with what I've been watching lately! "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078 |
I'd be struggling to assume ulterior motives without SOME evidence? I'm more likely to just put it down to a plot choice like any 100 of the other.
It was futuristic, at least from a biotech POV. I'd like to presume people will still have emotions and make even irrational and rash decisions. It had an O'Henry flare to it. No, I don't think that's right.
Someone did something rash because they underestimated someone else: that's not an unusual plot is it?
Yeah, I don't think that would go on my "worst moments" list, at least today. Tomorrow I might think of it differently.
I don't think I have a lot of bad moments. The Sunboy thing now that you mention it. Killing KK again would probably be on there.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078 |
Another one: Lightning Lad has actually been Proty this whole time
Would the Monel thing go into the same category with you? Or was it Valor then? Been so long.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692
Humanoid from the Deep
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Humanoid from the Deep
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692 |
Would the Monel thing go into the same category with you? Or was it Valor then? Been so long.
It was stupid, just slightly less so.
Last edited by Braal Janitor; 10/04/14 03:57 PM.
Keep up with what I've been watching lately! "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872 |
Re: Sun Boy.
Blown up in issue #19 and finally put out of his misery waaay down the road in #36. It was a very protracted end for him. I think Sun Boy story in the YMK run was a powerful one.
Re: Erin
From what I recall from the Legion Companion, Erin's gender change was entirely down to an attempt to save her from Blok's fate in issue #3.
Re: Garth.
I liked this one quite a bit. It added a new layer of depth to the Garth/Imra relationship and strengthened a lot of what had gone before. Leading into...
Re: Mon-El
Having Eltro Gand project himself into Mon-El was an interesting take on Mon El's instability (well, reaction to his serum fading anyway) from previous runs. The parallel with Proty projecting itself into Lightning Lad was also a good one.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
Re: Erin
From what I recall from the Legion Companion, Erin's gender change was entirely down to an attempt to save her from Blok's fate in issue #3. Then they should have just killed hir, for the reasons I already listed. As it was, they committed a character assassination, which was even worse.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078 |
Re: Sun Boy.
Blown up in issue #19 and finally put out of his misery waaay down the road in #36. It was a very protracted end for him. I think Sun Boy story in the YMK run was a powerful one.
Re: Erin
From what I recall from the Legion Companion, Erin's gender change was entirely down to an attempt to save her from Blok's fate in issue #3.
Re: Garth.
I liked this one quite a bit. It added a new layer of depth to the Garth/Imra relationship and strengthened a lot of what had gone before. Leading into...
Re: Mon-El
Having Eltro Gand project himself into Mon-El was an interesting take on Mon El's instability (well, reaction to his serum fading anyway) from previous runs. The parallel with Proty projecting itself into Lightning Lad was also a good one.
you didn't tell us your worst.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078 |
Re: Erin
From what I recall from the Legion Companion, Erin's gender change was entirely down to an attempt to save her from Blok's fate in issue #3. Then they should have just killed hir, for the reasons I already listed. As it was, they committed a character assassination, which was even worse. Both Bloc's and Erin's then would seem to have been writer choice. Not sure how "save" comes into the process. Do you recall what the companion said? Was there some edict from on high?
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872 |
you didn't tell us your worst. Reflecting on which one to choose.  The editorial spat resulting in removing all Superboy references.
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,897
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,897 |
The editorial spat resulting in removing all Superboy references.
We have a winner. With blowing up the Earth probably in second.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,876
Time Trapper
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Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,876 |
Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
Something pithy!
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872 |
Both Bloc's and Erin's then would seem to have been writer choice. Not sure how "save" comes into the process. Do you recall what the companion said? Was there some edict from on high? The "save" was referring to the attempt from Al Gordon. Erin was slated to be bumped off. Roxxas was released by the Dominators with carte blanche* to prevent the Legion reforming. Unable to get past his previous fixations, he was going to do the task, but get some revenge on Element Lad. So, Erin was the one to go. Which makes sense story wise. As everyone has their favourites, a more compelling reason had to be given to keep her around. Gordon came out with that. So, it would be saved from Giffen, which sounds a little harsh on Giffen as he had a story reason for putting her head on the block. That's my take on it. Companion snippets coming up when I find where I put it. *Your actual French for "huge array of pointy weaponry."
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
As everyone has their favourites, a more compelling reason had to be given to keep her around. Gordon came out with that. I wouldn't exactly call it "compelling", unless a car crash could be called "compelling." I also have long suspected that it may not necessarily have come from Gordon, and that Tom Bierbaum was trying to pass the buck. His blog entry on that issue certainly seemed evasive to me.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872
Tempus Fugitive
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Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,872 |
"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397
Leader
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Leader
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397 |
Broadly speaking, introducing the SW6 Legion pretty much knocked the whole series off the rails. Instead of seeing the Legion pull itself back together and retake Earth, we got a totally different group of kids doing the job. Meanwhile the adult Legion was sort of marginalized in their own book, skulking in their headquarters of garbage.
I might be wrong but I think this was again an editorial decision because they decided to make "Legionnaires" contemporary with the main book instead of a retelling of the Legion's early days.
Of course it gave Keith Giffen another chance to kill Karate Kid so I guess he got something out of it.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
I agree with Matlock. SW6 was a bad idea all around. I'd only add that I think TMK were elitist in their decision to only have clones of the pre-Adventure 350 Legionnaires. Fanwank at its worst.
Another thing I hate about 5YL was turning Nura into an overweight, obnoxious matron. Not all party girls end up that way, for TMK to choose that was not only pure cliche, it was a slap in the face to her many fans.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,078 |
As everyone has their favourites, a more compelling reason had to be given to keep her around. Gordon came out with that. I wouldn't exactly call it "compelling", unless a car crash could be called "compelling." I also have long suspected that it may not necessarily have come from Gordon, and that Tom Bierbaum was trying to pass the buck. His blog entry on that issue certainly seemed evasive to me. Was there something in the story that would how changing her to a guy, saved her from Roxxas? I think, "writers on deadline all got drunk" might be a better explanation.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397
Leader
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Leader
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397 |
Well, I got through about half of the second paragraph where he dismissed Blok as a nice-guy background character. Ugh. Some of us started/kept reading after the Adventure run. Blok and Timber Wolf made a great friendship and Blok and White Witch's bond was kind of ambiguous but a nice variation from the usual Legion power couples. Well, TMK shafted her too.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872
More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,872 |
Again, I agree with Matlock. Blok and other post-Adventure-350 characters were still fresh and vital at the point where TMK pissed all over them.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397
Leader
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Leader
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,397 |
I agree with Matlock. SW6 was a bad idea all around. I'd only add that I think TMK were elitist in their decision to only have clones of the pre-Adventure 350 Legionnaires. Fanwank at its worst. Hahaha, I accidentally deleted part of my post where I used the phrase "Adventure Era fetish" when I rewrote some of it. You got me covered though.
Last edited by matlock; 10/04/14 05:18 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Humanoid from the Deep
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Humanoid from the Deep
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,692 |
Huh, I'm surprised that Tom forgot Tellus' name.
Keep up with what I've been watching lately! "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
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