Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

I think, and I'm sure Cobie feels the same way, that you'll have found what you just said you're looking for in the Harras/Epting run by the time you finish reading 375. We shall see.

I agree. This run hinges on the personal dynamics to come, and I won't say more as I look forward to you guys seeing it happen.

A slight tangent about Avengers collections to come next year:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09...-2015-uncanny-volume-2-perez-and-busiek/

I could care less about the other two, but the second volume of the Silver Age Avengers is a must-have for me, especially as it ends with #58, which is the point where I think Roy Thomas' run jumped the shark with Pym turning into Yellowjacket (there we still great Thomas Avengers stories to come, but as I said before, I think #47-58 are some of the greatest and most influential superhero comics ever created, and the most consistently brilliant that Thomas ever got during his Avengers run.)

And it comes out eight days before my birthday. I'll be dropping lots of hints to family members and friends that I'd like it as a birthday gift.

Avengers 345-346 (March-April 1992)
“Storm Gatherings”/ “Assassination”

Summary
Nahh . . .

Thoughts
I’m not even going to try to summarize “Operation: Galactic Storm,” a 19-part crossover event which includes three issues of The Avengers. From what I’ve gleaned after reading these two issues (347 to follow), it’s basically an updated Kree-Skrull War. Like the earlier story, “Galactic Storm” apparently begins with a vision of Rick Jones’ and involves earth (or, more precisely this time: the sun) being caught in the middle of a war between two alien races. There are space battles aplenty, and Hawkeye even reverts to his old Goliath identity for the occasion.

I found myself growing bored while reading 346’s lengthy expositions and monologues from the Kree Supreme Intelligence, who, as in the Kree-Skrull War, appears to be manipulating everything from behind the scenes.

Rather than comment on the overall storyline, I’m going to focus my thoughts on the portrayal of the Avengers themselves (who once again seem relegated to supporting roles in their own book).

Little new ground is established here, although certain personalities come into sharp relief. Sersi, for example, antagonizes everyone, especially Captain America, leading me to believe her days as an Avenger are numbered. The Black Knight proves he does indeed have a bloodthirsty streak as he disagrees with Cap over setting his photonic sword to kill. And New Thor continues to be the newb whose rashness and inexperience nearly cost him his life.

Other than that, it’s pretty much business as usual.

Issue 345 does contain a two-page spread of all of the active and semi-active Avengers gathered around the table to discuss strategy—which would have been impressive except for a nearly identical scene back in 329 or so.

Cap’s idealism in refusing to sanction killing seems quaintly outdated given the dire circumstances the Avengers faced and which real soldiers face in every war (and which they certainly faced in Operation: Desert Storm, from which the title of this event was borrowed).

It is nice to see Cap calling the shots and demonstrating tactical leadership, though.

Other than that, I don’t have a lot to say about these issues. I feel cheated that Hawkeye makes a big to-do of resuming his old Goliath identity but we don’t even get to see him in the next issue. That’s one of the pratfalls of crossovers—you have to buy every issue of every title to keep up with what’s going on.

There was a time when crossovers were rare. They were truly big events. By 1992, they were just annoying.

He Who, sorry to learn that these issues disappointed you, but I think it's all in the context. Remember, you started reading Avengers almost 20 years before I did, so I wasn't jaded from what might be termed "crossoverkill". Operation Galactic Storm and its X-Men companion from the same year, The X-Cutioner's Song, were among the first crossovers I ever read, and I found them grandiose, sumptuous, and truly epic. And not all crossovers worked for me back then -- I hated Spider-Man's Maximum Carnage. As far as I'm concerned, Operation Galactic Storm is the closest Marvel ever came to equaling DC's CoIE. That's why I'll be even more interested than usual in your next review, because I consider Avengers 347 to be on a par with Alan Moore's Saga of the Swamp Thing 21.

It's all opinion, Fanfie. Nobody's opinion is better than anyone else's.

I'm actually delighted to hear you enjoyed this storyline. It puts everything in context. The stories I look upon as classics might have been classics only because I had experienced nothing before. Older fans might view them very differently.

I never read Saga of the Swamp Thing 21, by the way, so I have no basis for comparison there.

Very true.



Absolutely. I've been on both sides of the fence (haven't we all at some point?) I'm sure there's people for whom, say, Our Worlds At War was their first crossover event, and they view it the way I view OGS and the way you view whatever your favorite crossover event is.



Ah, okay. Basically, Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 is considered the turning point for DC, where their books started to get richer and more complex, thanks to Alan Moore's influence (granted, he also influenced a lot of bad stuff.) I think if Marvel had been run by people like Jenette Kahn, Paul Levitz, and Dick Giordano, Marvel would have capitalized on the potential which I believe could have been unleashed by Avengers 347.

I was pretty much a super-hero buff when Swamp Thing was in its heyday, so I missed a lot of these "turning points." I did catch up with Moore when he wrote Watchmen and was blown away.

By 1992, I think I was reading mainly Avengers and Iron Man from the old guard of Marvel titles, so I missed out on these other crossover events. My attention was occupied by Milestone Media (which, unfortunately, also devolved into a crossover event). I also remember The Spectre and a few titles from other publishers from that period (Neil Gaiman's Techno Comics had a unique approach). But I was also entering my senior year in college and starting to become aware of many other possibilities beyond comics. I was disappointed that comics didn't keep up with what I perceived to be my own personal growth. I truly once believed that Marvel and DC published stories that mattered. However, watching their characters go through the same kind of events that were meant to do no more than sell comics was an eye-opening and disillusioning experience.

It's an odd contradiction. Marvel and DC are corporations, and they think like corporations. Their characters are nothing more than commodities to the people who own them. Yet on a cultural level they are so much more to many of us. They continue to inspire us long after their owners have decided on different approaches to keep them fresh.

Huey, I truly hope you'll read at least the first trade of Moore's Swamp Thing at some point. Moore didn't do a whole lot of extended runs on any book, so it's a special treat to see him do so on Swamp Thing and work his magic for 40-odd issues. I only read the whole run myself for the first time a couple of years ago, and I'm so glad I did. In a way, though Watchmen and some of his other stuff may be technically better, experiencing his storytelling and planning longterm like that with such sustained quality makes it more special somehow. Doesn't hurt that Bissette, Totleben and Veitch are arguably his best-ever artistic collaborators.

I honestly think reading it may just touch your soul from my impressions of you over the years. Yeah, pretty metaphysical way to put it, but there you have it!

Now you've got me curious, Lardy.

I actually do have one Saga of the Swamp Thing issue . . . 24 or so; it features Jason Woodrue, a very horrific interpretation of the character.

The horrific moments in his run are palpable, but it's the humanity in it all that I remember the most.

I second everything Lardy said about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, He Who.

Avengers 345
The solar flare issue links the last issue in with this crossover. Earth's solar system finds itself as a strategic location in a galactic conflict. As premises go, it's not a terrible one. It's just that invariably I'm left wondering why anyone goes near Earth when the aliens always seem underpowered to take on Earth's heroes.

An Avengers team led by Vision are in space and rescue Starcore. Thor seemingly has the personality of a small boy (he's overly enthusiastic, mouthy and blushes at girls). Quasar seems hugely powerful, but vanishes in convenient panels and Sersi is not herself. Something else else that is repeated to us throughout. In previous issues we learned from Cap & Falcon that there were a number of things the group weren't set up to Avenge. Here, we learn that tone is important too. Sersi's threat to destroy a ship of aggressors is a big no in Cap's Way to Avenge book.

We don't reach a conclusion to that issue before Cap also objects to Hank Pym shrinking and incarcerating enemies. This issue is brushed away too, and Cap even apologies. I hope there's at least air holes in the prison box Hank is using. There doesn't seem to be any light getting in.
Crystal blurts out her personal issue at a inappropriate moment. There's no payoff to Crystal's speech this issue, as the characters involved don't share a word. Beside her, the Black Knight acts like a jerk throughout the scene.

It's not as if the Avengers didn't already have jerks on the team. Hawkeye and USAgent appear as both Avengers franchises get together to fight the alien threat.

Black Widow is important because Cap tells me so. Just as well, because she once again does nothing else in the book. Considering the espionage potential of the crossover, I hope she gets some panel time somewhere. Cap doesn't even bother to mention her as part of any of the three teams. Perhaps she's so stealthy, he doesn't realise she's standing right behind him.

The remainder of the issue is simply setting up teams and positions for the next installment in the crossover.

In summary, this is just one chapter in a story involving titles I'm not reading. Like a lot of similar Events, it's something that regular readers are just supposed to put up with*

The characterisation is pretty basic, and the subplots are kept to a minimum. Of those that do come up; Cap's vision of Avenging; Crystal; Wanda being stuck with the Vision and Simon, we don't see anything developed. We're beaten with a stick by Sersi's subplot, and you wonder why no one has asked her any questions.

Realistically, there's only so much you can do with this sort of issue. I didn't feel lost at any point in the story. Harras did manage to at least start a few possible subplots off and continue the Sersi one. It could have been all action panels, but there has been some effort into adding a bit more depth.


*I wonder how many readers the big 2 lost through Event tie-ins. I know I don't read their books and that this is one reason why.

Sorry, Thoth, Black Widow doesn't do anything else on-panel during Operation Galactic Storm. As I said before, I imagine she does all the boring dealing-with-the-politicians stuff.



I used to love Events, until they started doing one right after the other after the other with no tangible resolutions.

And, Thoth, I don't mean to nag, but you haven't yet posted what your thoughts were on that story I wrote that takes place between 344 and 345. Even if you hated it, I'd like to know. I can take criticism. He Who sent me his thoughts on the story through Legion World Private Messaging -- if you'd feel more comfortable doing it that way, it's fine with me.

When is a nag not a nag. When it's a horse. Of course.

I have read the story, but the lovely day today has put me a bit behind. So, I was going to do #346 first, if only so I can pop back up and read the above posts (I generally don't like to spoil it before I read it). The I've a Idol list to finish, and then it's next!

All right. Thank you.

You can count me as one of the readers who was lost due to the tie-ins. That was one of several reasons I grew disillusioned with Marvel in the '90s.

345-346 are typical of the problem. As I mentioned in my review, the Avengers are once again relegated to guests in their own book, and much attention is paid to the Kree rulers, Deathbird, and the Shi'ar crew. But I have nothing invested emotionally in these characters, so I don't care about them.

The only thing the story really gives me to care about is the sun going nova, but, as I also mentioned, that's not going to happen. So, the entire premise of the story is flawed.

It is also basically a ripoff of the Kree-Skrull War, except that that story gave us a couple of things to care about. The Skrulls turned public sentiment against the Avengers, making us sympathize with our titular heroes (who'da thunk?). The cover of # 92 alone is heartbreaking: It shows Wanda, Pietro, Vision and Hawkeye/Goliath being "fired" by Skrulls impersonating Thor, Iron Man, and Cap. (In the comic, the scene itself is severely truncated, but it still yanks those emotional strings.)

In KSW, we also had Rick Jones, an ordinary kid-turned-sidekick who finds himself the hapless center of the conflict.

Nothing similar is present in 345 or 346. Even the climactic deaths of two characters in 346 lacks any sort of emotional impact.

Lesson of the day, folks: If you're going to write a cosmic storyline, don't lose sight of the fact that you're still telling a story about human beings.

Good point, He Who. Even the Godfather of Cosmic, Jim Starlin, is guilty of that sin (see: Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War, Infinity Crusade.)

Having said that, I personally did care for all the characters, but that may be because when I started reading this run, almost a year after OGS, the character drama was already in high gear.

Avengers 346

The cover sports Deathbird in Jim Lee knockoff mode and a jacket on Crystal. Ah! This is where they started getting the jackets? Before Sersi went off to work with Buddy Baker and Diana Prince.

Although we're well into the cross over plot, the issue still makes sense. Having the issue focus on the mission of one of the team's from last issue works well to reduce confusion. This issue has Cap's team attempt to persuade the Kree empire to resolve the conflict peacefully.

Ah, Starforce. A team formed so recently, yet already at each other's throats. I guess Marvel hoped for a spin off book. Their silly putty leader, the Supreme Intelligence, pitches them against the Avengers. Cap leaps to the ...um...defensive. Herc is thumped again.

Crystal and Sersi do much better, yet it only takes one more lesson from Cap to Dane on what Avenging is all about, and the tide of the battle inexplicably turns against them. Dane will be joining Sersi on Jarvis' Naughty Step in the kitchen for wanting to kill opponents.

One panel of note is Atlas' comment to Minerva. The casual misogyny, and her tolerance of it, is only beaten by an expression on his face that should have him removed by the authorities as a protective measure. Yeah. Go Starforce. Right. Very icky Marvel.

The Avengers spend the rest of the issue behind a convenient force field. Now they have a reason why they are passengers in their own book. Deathbird lives up to her name by having feathers and killing things. You know what you get with her. Ronan didn't accuse anyone all issue.

Deathbird's assassinations are all part of Supreme Wavyhair's plan to re-ascend to lead it's people. I'm wondering about the Galactic Storm/ Desert Storm parallels when I see that the Avengers will be changed forever in the next issue blurb. But not in their own book, echoing Cap's complaint issues ago. Ah well, I know that at least the jackets survive.

In summary, there's probably a bit of decent comic plotting behind the Supreme Intelligence's plans. It's a bit more subtle than a number of other foes. Having the other issues would probably help.

We're right in the meat of a cosmic crossover, so the lack of subplots is fine. Having Cap stop to ask Herc if he's ever won a fight in his life, only for Herc to break down in tears would have got in the way of the action. There's a decent cliff hanger at the end, with the villain clearly having goals well in advance of anyone else's expectations.

I love the jackets. Maybe its something to do with having come of age in the 80s. Of course, by the early 90s, trendy youngsters in Real Life were rejecting leather jackets in favor of flannel shirts.

Crystal and Sersi were awesome in this issue.



Well, they ARE both evil.

All kidding aside, there's more to Minerva than meets the eye, as will be revealed next issue.



I adore that soliloquy. "Bread and circuses, bread and circuses..."

Did you ever see the final two seasons of Super Friends, Thoth? Every time I read the Supreme Intelligence, I "hear" the voice of Darkseid on Super Friends.

Good to know there are some interesting things to look forward to.

In a similar vein, I read much of Roy Thomas' run after I read Engelhart's. Engelhart had cemented in my mind my impression of the characters and their relationships, so I was disappointed to see those kinds of relationships absent from Thomas's run. Thomas wrote many classic Avengers stories, but it wasn't the same as Engelhart. Of course, it couldn't be the same.

Avengers 347 (May 1992)
“Empire’s End”

Summary
The Shi’ar detonate a nega-bomb, wiping out 98 percent of the Kree. All of the Avengers survive, however, and return to Hala, the obliterated Kree homeworld, to search for the missing Captain America. Meanwhile, Cap and Deathbird encounter the Kree Supreme Intelligence, who admits that he committed near-genocide in order to advance the Kree beyond their evolutionary dead-end. In millennia, offspring of the survivors will have the power to take over the universe, the Intelligence claims.

Cap locates the Avengers, but an argument breaks out over whether or not the team should kill the Supreme Intelligence in order to “avenge” the deaths of billions of people. Cap staunchly opposes such an action, but others are convinced that the Intelligence is not a living being and can be “shut off.” A team of Iron Man, the Vision, Sersi, Wonder Man, the Black Knight, Hercules, and Thor II break away from the others to confront the Supreme Intelligence.

After the team makes its way through the Intelligence’s ineffective defenses, the Black Knight plunges his photonic sword into the Intelligence’s life-support system, destroying it.

As the Avengers return to the rest of the team, a Shi’ar vessel arrives. It bears Empress Lilandra, who claims victory over the Kree and possession of Hala. As the Avengers depart, Captain America announces “things will never be the same.”

Somewhere in space, a ship with a Skrull crewmember brings aboard an object containing the mind of the Supreme Intelligence.

Thoughts
The resolution to “Galactic Storm” has such a grandiose concept—yet it falls utterly flat.

The story begins with Quasar witnessing the detonation of the nega-bomb and cuts to various worlds in which people are killed. While all of this is competently depicted, it fails to deliver any sort of emotional impact. We’ve all seen the destruction of worlds before in super-hero comics and science fiction, so this, sadly, offers nothing new.

I say “sadly” because it should. The best science fiction (and this story is steeped in science fiction trappings) extrapolates from real-world events and shows where they might lead. While reading this sequence, I couldn’t help thinking of the atomic bombs being dropped on Hiroshima (which Vision even mentions in the story) and Nagasaki. These are horrific events, and we should feel something. But I felt nothing while reading this extrapolation.

Quasar then locates his Avengers comrades, whose bodies are intact following the destruction of their quinjet; nevertheless, Quasar believes they are dead. As a fan, I know there is no way Iron Man, Herc, Crystal, and the rest would truly be dead, so this scene is just something we have to get through until we learn how they survived and how they can be revived. I want to feel what Quasar feels when he comes upon their “corpses,” but I can’t. I know that this is just a dodge.

Then, after the Avengers reach Hala, there’s a scene involving Captain Atlas and Dr. Minerva, who play the roles they are supposed to play with no surprises. Atlas initially blames the Avengers for the destruction of the Kree and tries to fight them; then he learns Minerva was in on the Supreme Intelligence’s plan, so he activates his suit’s self-destruct device. Minerva, apparently not wanting to perpetuate the new Kree species without her misogynistic lover, joins him in committing suicide.

Come again? A moment ago, Atlas hated the Avengers; now, as he’s about to die, he realizes they are “worthy of respect” and begs them to “make the Supreme Intelligence pay for his crime”? How noble of him to realize he’s been a bad guy all along. Also, where is Minerva’s sense of self-preservation? If she is so cold-blooded that she’s willing to participate in genocide of her own people, why does she throw herself upon Atlas and die with him?

It’s awful nice when one-dimensional bad guys do what they are supposed to do to further the plot.

Now, on to the meat of the story: the division in the Avengers’ ranks.

Years later, the idea of a philosophical disagreement among the super-hero community was played out in Civil War—and quite effectively, as I recall. Here, the Avengers’ debate comes off as ham-fisted and matter-of-fact. There has been no set up that some of the Avengers disagree with Cap’s no-kill policy. Sure, Dane wanted to kill the bad guys last issue—and there’s a nice echo of that scene when he’s the first to volunteer to kill the Supreme Intelligence (and also when he’s the one to deliver the death blow).

But other than that, this debate comes across as convenient and mandated by the plot. Iron Man, who so far has had nothing to do in this issue, “pulls rank” and leads the team of Avengers seeking to avenge. Really? Where did this come from, Tony Stark?

Likewise, I can almost envision Wanda wanting to join the killer-team instead of staying back. This impression of mine harkens back to my earliest Avengers stories, in which she displayed bitterness toward humanity when some humans nearly killed the Vision. Here she doesn’t have anything to do except remind us of her feelings toward Vizh and Simon.

Bottom line: Harras has failed to develop his characters enough for us to understand why they make the choices they do.

The battle with the Supreme Intelligence’s constructs is anticlimactic—and with good reason. It’s all a show so the Avengers can do what they set out to do and think they’ve won. In reality, the Supreme Intelligence survives to be used the next time a writer wants an omnipotent and mouthy villain to control everything from behind the scenes.

Ho Hum.

As with most such crossover events, nothing of real significance happens for our heroes and nothing really changes for their universe. Sure, the Kree are no more, but so what? They were never that interesting as villains in the first place.

I predict Cap will leave the Avengers because the others went on a killing mission. But that, too, doesn’t matter since we know he will return eventually, anyway.

So, this story had a great idea that was watered down until anything of consequence drowned. It stops short of actually challenging the characters or the readers.

I think we're going to have a agree to disagree on this one, He Who. I still think it's one of the greatest comics ever published. And I think it's kind of funny you would compare it unfavorably to Civil War, which I loathe and which I feel is truly deserving of being called ham-fisted and flat. Come to think of it, I'm going to have to re-read Civil War sometime in the future as research for a fanfic project. Maybe we could re-read it together, and discuss. I think that would be quite a fascinating discussion.

Regarding Wanda, while I agree that the Englehart Wanda from the 70s would have joined the killing expedition, the Wanda of 1992 was considerably mellower (John Byrne's character assassination of her in West Coast Avengers notwithstanding). In fact, Englehart himself contributed significantly to Wanda's mellowing, with his 12-part Vision & the Scarlet Witch mini-series from the 80s, where she and Vision matured and started a family (which Byrne then destroyed, but I think that's beside the point, which is that by 1992 Wanda was trying to move on from her angrier past.)

By jillikers! That's some build up for #347!



Yeah, but there's a bit of suspension of disbelief in a lot of comics when it comes to the threat being executed. For example, It's not as though The Monitor would actually restart the DCU from the dawn...of...time...ah, bad example. Never mind.



I've picked a bad time to start the All Flannel: All Now! thread then?



Are they? I can't tell them apart from all the other hordes of Marvel's alien super-groups. They could easily have been an offshoot of the Imperial Guard for all I knew.



I have not seen any Super Friends. I saw the JLA animation in the last year with Dawny in it, and that's pretty much it for DC toons. Recommendations welcome.

Right. I see HWW has posted. Off to read #347 before I can read more posts.

Funnily enough, I wrote Dr. Minerva as one of the villains in an Imperial Guard fanfic I wrote eight years ago. For shits and giggles, I'm going to cut & paste a couple of the Dr. Minerva scenes in this thread.




Super Friends has its own thread in the Anywhere Machine forum, with reviews of different eras. I'll do a search for it and post a link in this thread.