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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819299 09/07/14 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by thothkins
Who else but Cap to take Crystal's offer of full membership and tie it up in Avenger's red tape.


Like I said before, I don't think Harras liked Cap at all.

Originally Posted by thothkins
Black Widow gets her own back by saying that Crystal will be a good tactical addition. We don;t see Cap's reaction panel at someone knowing what "tactical" means.


lol God bless the Black Widow.

Originally Posted by thothkins
I'm reminded a little of the Legion's Blight.


Which dovetails nicely with my comparison earlier in this thread of Harras' Avengers to DnA's Legion.

Originally Posted by thothkins
As HWW said, it's a real shame that the Avengers are nowhere near this interesting.


They get more interesting soon, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by thothkins
It's a real shame that the Watcher has now become the Smiler and the Gesturer in short order. You'd have thought that his job description couldn't have been simpler.


lol


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819335 09/07/14 08:34 PM
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Avengers 338 (Late September 1991)
"Infectious Compulsions"

Summary
The miniaturized Avengers encounter Olar, the oldest of the Brethren, and bring him to earth so they can analyze his body and figure out what makes the Brethren tick. However, the Avengers’ movements are being recorded by the Fool, who convinces Thane Ector that the heroes are in league with the Collector. The Brethren attack the Avengers and murder Olar, but when Ector attacks the Controller, the latter reveals his true appearance and that he has been manipulating events all along.

Thoughts
For the most part, this issue is very good. It furthers the plot and brings the issue boiling to a climax.

The twists and turn in the brewing conflict between Ector, Sybyl, and Sersi is less satisfying, however, because it feels all too familiar. Sybyl, the spurned lover, accuses Ector of consorting with an inferior (Sersi) and tries to lead a Brethren against him. Ector’s throne is saved by the machinations of the Fool, who distracts everybody with a common enemy. All very ordinary stuff. The Fool’s Shakespearean dialogue borders on the comically annoying.

And then there’s the ending—one of the most tried and true at both Marvel and DC (See the Legion’s “Earth War” for instance). Yes, the villain we thought we were fighting isn’t the real villain at all but a pawn for the Big Badass Real Villain. Ho hum.

But the story leading up to that revelation moves along at a fast clip, and the fight scenes are well choreographed. So this is meat-and-potatoes Marvel, but it’s nice to look at, thanks to Epting and Palmer.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
thoth lad #819338 09/07/14 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thothkins
Avengers #337

A pretty good last page gives a clear example of the threat the Brethren pose, a bit of black humour and an eerie landscape for their home. Looking down at the vast rectangular, connected buildings I'm reminded of incubators or the eggs from Alien and Prometheus. So, that's pretty chilling stuff.


I hadn't thought to comment on the depiction of the Brethren's home, but you're right. It looks imposing as well as chilling.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819353 09/08/14 03:05 AM
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Avengers 338
Although one of their party disintegrated just by being in the area, the Avengers take a long, long time to scan the area. they also decide not only to tamper with one of the giant stone monoliths, but to bury someone right at the top of it. The momentum of the previous issue's last page is largely wasted.

Ah, but they had to bury someone or the plot point wouldn't have worked. An ancient alien possessing a corpse is fine, but it was still a clunky way to get to it.

Cap defends the rights of bacteria everywhere, while standing above the corpses of those the Brethren have slaughtered in his team's home city. Good job Cap.

Had we seen the Fool's spy eyes previously or have they been suddenly dropped into the plot to force it along? Ector reverts to bombastic villain mode when faced with the Fool's evidence. The Brethren beyond the three leaders are still woefully underdeveloped. Sersi does nothing in a room full of people wanting the death of the Avengers and they leave her alone with the Fool.

There's a little burst of plot pace as the Avengers are attacked from within, the Brethren fly from their citadel and Ector finds the Collector with our heroes. The flurry of events is effective as it pays of with the issues big reveal, and you realise you were distracted with other events at the time.

It's yet another battle between the Avengers and Ector. Once again the Avengers are beaten without any effort. Should Ector manage to grasp his aspirations, he could call himself The Avenger and the others could just retire. It's not even as though they're fighting valiantly. They're just ineffective and reduced to bystanders.

The Avengers stand around doing nothing as the true villain is revealed. It's not who I thought it was going to be. I hope that a few questions are answered before the Avengers use the only tactics we've seen from them: Use Sersi as "booty" to distract the foe and then get Lockjaw to teleport the villain into the centre of the crust. Why it's the crust and not Earth's core I'm not sure, but it's the crust. "The Avenger and Lockjaw" has a nice ring to it for the new title when this story is finished.




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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819354 09/08/14 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
Originally Posted by thothkins
I'm reminded a little of the Legion's Blight.


Which dovetails nicely with my comparison earlier in this thread of Harras' Avengers to DnA's Legion.


I don;t think I've read that post yet, and it sounds really interesting. I'll wait until I've read some more issues before taking a look.

Still chuckling over Scooby Sting...


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819374 09/08/14 06:42 AM
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I don't entirely agree with you guys' reviews of 338, but as always I respect your opinions. I look forward to finding out what you guys think about the conclusion, which I find a satisfactory resolution.

And, He Who, I think there's a lot worse stories to rip off than Earth War. But I do get your point. And I realize there's a difference between coming to these stories after having read comics for a long time versus coming to these stories while one is just discovering the superhero genre, which was the case with me.

Thoth, glad you liked Scooby Sting so much.

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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819379 09/08/14 07:02 AM
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>snort<
>chuckle<
>snort<




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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819451 09/08/14 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
I don't entirely agree with you guys' reviews of 338, but as always I respect your opinions. I look forward to finding out what you guys think about the conclusion, which I find a satisfactory resolution.


If there's some merit to the story that thoth and I are missing, I'd love to read it. smile

Quote
And, He Who, I think there's a lot worse stories to rip off than Earth War.


That's damning with faint praise. laugh No story should rip off any other, though the idea of the Big Badass Real Villain manipulating events from behind the scenes certainly didn't originate with the "Earth War." I'm sure if we go back far enough in the Marvel and DC canon, we'll find multitudes of examples.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819452 09/08/14 05:11 PM
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Avengers 339
Our villain looks a bit like the Supreme Intelligence on the cover, and I wonder what kind of mouthwash can take away the smell of cosmic energy on someone's breath. Someone call Wonder Man!

The writer tries to out-bombast his creation on the splash page; a page that sees Black Widow unconscious on the ground. This is possibly her most active involvement in combat so far in the story.

Cap tells the team that the "situation's entered a newer, deadlier phase." It must be time for a pointless frontal assault then, and sure enough that's exactly what they do. Cap gets his breath back by getting the villain to provide exposition for a couple of pages. I'd actually like to think this was Cap's in depth knowledge of what makes marvel villains tick, rather than just a plot dump.

Hey, my queries on why the Collector wasn't paying attention to his toys gets answered. Although it's not really a complete collection if you've just allowed a lot of it to get slaughtered. Collector indeed. He'll be selling it on Cosmic E-Bay next.

Our villain could have just released the Brethren into a few controlled environments, like a good biologist, to build up their own legends if he needed the cover story . Since he's standing there gloating, I wonder why cover was needed at all. He could just have released the Brethren in the first issue for a similar effect.

Sersi name drops a Legionnaire, during a pretty trite page. What happened to their biological imperative to spread disease? What happened to the Brethren's hatred of Avengers? Now he's their tourist guide?

Still blabbing, the villain gives away the origin of the Brethren. But Dorn is the only one there who it will really affect, relegating the "millions" of other Brethren to an unseen background role again. The thing is that the writer has given us all lots of hints to this information throughout. It seems a little pointless to regurgitate it for the benefit of one secondary character.

The Celestials are supposed to be pretty scary, and Arishem the Judge may be the most powerful but I'm more worried about Oneg the Prober myself. It's three more pages of plot dumping and the issue hasn't really got off the ground yet.

Sadly, none of the Avengers gets a chance to tell Dorn that the Brethren's origins are fine, before she's destroyed by the villain. I'm sure the Beast was just about to tell her that all life on Earth also came from slime too.

Perhaps Beast was distracted fighting gloops of devolved background Brethren, like the rest of the team. It's not the first time in this story the team get distracted form their purpose. Although there were swarms of Brethren, the villain seems to have devolved them all with a couple of narrow blasts. They really are changed around at the writer's convenience. Despite being deadly, none of the gloops harm the Avengers. Despite the Brethren being tougher than the Avengers, our heroes aren't harmed by a blast from the villain.

A villain who does precious little while the heroes work out and execute a plan. The two Hanks don't bother to try their previously successful idea. Instead, Sersi helps the remaining Brethren to create... a giant cup cake! No...a giant brain!

The heroic sacrifice of an entire race while achieving the dreams of their leader makes a nice change of ending from pointless battling. But that's partly because the writer is seemingly terrible at writing pointless battles. Most of the cast just hung around checking the script, waiting for it all to finish.

One or two decent moments isn't enough to make this rather formulaic finale more than a disappointment. I don't think the villain had to take three steps all issue and it's not as though he was preoccupied. My hypocrite alarm reminds me that the Anti-Monitor didn't take more than three steps in the final issue of Crisis either. But I don't recall the Anti-Monitor stopping everything for large amounts of exposition in that issue, so it moved along at a decent pace.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819456 09/08/14 05:19 PM
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Summary
The meat of a solid Doctor Who story, with a good choice of villain and the addition of some revelations of cosmic scope in the Marvel universe, make the bones of this story quite promising.

The slightly overlong discussion of Ector and The Fool in the sewers; the two Hanks taking down the Collector; The hints at the villain's personality shift through the issues; a reveal in the first issue from the Fool having a payoff at the end; the creepy and underused Brethren home world and the spirit of the Brethren's final sacrifice are the good points of the story.

But they are weighed down by the poor quality in everything else. The promising outline above is what the writer is pushing us through and the rest of the plotting simply doesn't support it. The Avengers are virtual passengers in their own book, and the writer can't come up with anything to distract us from this.

The villains are needlessly better at every single turn throughout with the Avengers shown as easily beaten and clueless in battle after battle. They survive where others do not simply because they are the main characters. Their foes are, with three exceptions, ill defined numbers to be brought in, changed, and dropped at a moment's notice.

The characters who start the story vanish from it, despite the threat and none of Earth's other heroes seems to have gotten out of bed to take an interest. While that's not an issue when the threat is immediate, this is a global invasion that lasts for days.

The narration and dialogue is pretty clichéd and, with exceptions, does little to endear the characters to the reader.

Although people look back on the art of the Image creators with a bit of disdain, they were probably better than those trying to imitate the style. The art was substandard throughout this story.

Of the team itself, Black Widow seems to be in the wrong genre. She contributed nothing to the story. Rage seems to be a stereotype that's out of his depth. Captain America is a tactical disaster and I'd not let him run a bath, let alone a team. Quasar exists simply to fire energy bolts on demand, and nothing else. Hercules was a linguistic stand in for Thor, nearly crippled a colleague and is generally pretty unpleasant.

Vision was an ineffective cipher, contributing only when a comparison to something not human was needed. Iron Man and the Black Knight could have been removed without impacting the story in the slightest. Not good for one of the big three. The two Hanks at least seemed to be doing something in the overall plot, assisted by Black Panther.

Crystal joins so that Lockjaw has some company to move people around as needed. Yet the dog must have mistaken the Brethren base for a giant fire hydrant because he was absent from the climactic issue, where he could have been really, really useful.

Sersi came out best in the end. But it was too little, too late after issues of passivity. She's kidnapped by Ector; is confused about her feelings for Ector; is kissed by Ector in a one way exchange; is given things by Ector; is thrown around by Ector and would have been defeated by Dorn without Ector's intervention. Being key to a successful resolution doesn't take any of that away.

It turns out I did own issue #229 ("Substitute Reserve Avengers Assemble" smile ), but this is really my introduction to this team. They haven't really grown on me. At all. There's also an X-Men ad in the issue that suggests that the Beast may not be around for long. He's off to the Claremont/Lee thing that sold loads but last three issues before Claremont walked I think.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819480 09/08/14 07:41 PM
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To each their own. But I reiterate:

I realize there's a difference between coming to these stories after having read comics for a long time versus coming to these stories while one is just discovering the superhero genre, which was the case with me.

and

If it wasn't for a plot point in the Collection Obsession being an important reference point later in the run, I would have suggested you started with 343.

If you guys didn't like this story, so be it, but I hope you'll still give at least the next few issues a chance.

But remember to skip 340, because it's a fill-in by a different writer.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819488 09/08/14 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
To each their own. But I reiterate:

I realize there's a difference between coming to these stories after having read comics for a long time versus coming to these stories while one is just discovering the superhero genre, which was the case with me.


I think there's undoubtedly something in that. I wonder if I cast a critical eye over some of the comics I began reading, what I would think now. I whistle and push past parts of Crisis for a start.

Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
If you guys didn't like this story, so be it, but I hope you'll still give at least the next few issues a chance.


Hopefully my summary post shows that I think there's good in the bad as well. One I missed was Dorn's icky attack on Sersi. Not only better than your average battle, but provides a solid link between the sewer conversation and the gloops in the final part.

Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
But remember to skip 340, because it's a fill-in by a different writer.


Skip an issue?! Anal-Reader-Lad knows not such terms! Verily he doth not-est!


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819502 09/08/14 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady

But remember to skip 340, because it's a fill-in by a different writer.


So are 341-42, which were written by Fabian Nicieza.

I've already re-read these issues and probably will review them for the sake of completion, and also because 341-42 provide the finale for Rage, who despite the controversy, did start out with much promise.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819507 09/08/14 10:41 PM
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Since thoth has given his wrapup of 339, I might as well do the same:

Avengers 339 (Early October 1991)
"Final Redemption"

Summary
The Avengers don’t fare well against the Collector, who delights in telling Ector and Sybyl Dorn the Brethren’s true origins—whereupon he slaughters Sybil and the rest of the Brethren and reduces them to what looks like floating masses of excrement. These masses will cover the globe and annihilate all but a few survivors (ripe for the Collector’s collecting), unless the Avengers act.

Sersi to the rescue! After the Avengers have deduced that the Brethren operate on limited form of telepathic contact, Sersi links the minds of the two surviving members—Ector and the Fool—with the minds left in the floating masses. As a result, the remains of the Brethren come together as a “unimind” and dispatch the collector, destroying themselves in the process. As Ector dies, he reflects that he finally became the great warrior he always wanted to be.

Afterwards, Sersi reflects on how she came to care for Ector, a man who should have been her enemy.

Thoughts
This, too, is a meat-and-potatoes finale, but there’s nothing really wrong with that. It delivers a slam-bang finale to the story in a mostly satisfying way. Of course, all the tropes are here: The Collector goes to great lengths to explain the Celestials’ origin of the universe—a long exposition the story could have done without since we readers already knew it. It is told, instead, for the benefit of Sybyl Dorn, but a shorter version would have kept the story from being bogged down.

Among other tropes, we’ve got the Big Bad Ass Real Villain meeting a Big Bad Ass Something else else Else that destroys him in that ambiguous manner which leaves room for his return.

However, there are plenty of garnishes in these meat and potatoes that make the meal worthwhile. It is truly touching when Ector rushes to console the Fool, and Ector himself comes off as a noble foe in spite of his origins.

In fact, “The Collection Obsession” is mainly Thane Ector’s story, not the Avengers’. That, too, is not necessarily a bad thing. Harras introduces us to a villain who fits all the clichés we are supposed to hate, yet who gradually wins our hearts, just as he won Sersi’s. We can sympathize with Ector’s burden to hide the truth of his race’s shameful origins and his desire to be the great warrior he pretends to be. Also, his relationship with the Fool—his brother, we have learned—is believable; the Fool challenges him in ways only a brother can.

All in all, “The Collection Obsession” gets off to a shaky start and improves slightly. The story line is overly long—for all that is accomplished, it could have been done in four issues. And the Avengers themselves are relegated to caricature-like supporting characters in their own book. It's not the most auspicious of debuts, but there are a few bursts of originality along the way.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819508 09/08/14 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by thothkins
I think there's undoubtedly something in that. I wonder if I cast a critical eye over some of the comics I began reading, what I would think now. I whistle and push past parts of Crisis for a start.


There's very little in pop culture that holds up to scrutiny, in my opinion. That's why I prefer to go with a gut feeling. I re-read this era at least once a year, and it still feels right to me, in a way that I find hard to put into words. That's why I appreciate the challenges, they help me to find those words.

Originally Posted by thothkins
Hopefully my summary post shows that I think there's good in the bad as well.


It did, and I apologize for not acknowledging that in my poorly-thought-out, spur-of-the-moment reply post.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
I've already re-read these issues and probably will review them for the sake of completion, and also because 341-42 write out Rage, who despite the controversy, did start out with much promise.


I guess what I was trying to say is that 341-342 are well-crafted and do have some relevance to the big picture, whereas 340 is not and does not. But if you'd prefer to review them all, that's fine, too. I guess I'm just a little impatient to get to the real meat of the run.

As for Rage starting out with promise, that's in the eye of the beholder. I personally think he's on the level of a Tigra or a Psylocke in terms of unworkable hopelessness (although I also think Nicieza did the best he could with him in New Warriors, especially the odd-couple bromance between him and Speedball). But if you believe he had potential, I respect that.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819509 09/08/14 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
This, too, is a meat-and-potatoes finale, but there’s nothing really wrong with that. It delivers a slam-bang finale to the story in a mostly satisfying way. Of course, all the tropes are here: The Collector goes to great lengths to explain the Celestials’ origin of the universe—a long exposition the story could have done without since we readers already knew it. It is told, instead, for the benefit of Sybyl Dorn, but a shorter version would have kept the story from being bogged down.

Among other tropes, we’ve got the Big Bad Ass Real Villain meeting a Big Bad Ass Something else else Else that destroys him in that ambiguous manner which leaves room for his return.

However, there are plenty of garnishes in these meat and potatoes that make the meal worthwhile. It is truly touching when Ector rushes to console the Fool, and Ector himself comes off as a noble foe in spite of his origins.

In fact, “The Collection Obsession” is mainly Thane Ector’s story, not the Avengers’. That, too, is not necessarily a bad thing. Harras introduces us to a villain who fits all the clichés we are supposed to hate, yet who gradually wins our hearts, just as he won Sersi’s. We can sympathize with Ector’s burden to hide the truth of his race’s shameful origins and his desire to be the great warrior he pretends to be. Also, his relationship with the Fool—his brother, we have learned—is believable; the Fool challenges him in ways only a brother can.

All in all, “The Collection Obsession” gets off to a shaky start and improves slightly. The story line is overly long—for all that is accomplished, it could have been done in four issues. And the Avengers themselves are relegated to caricature-like supporting characters in their own book. It's not the most auspicious of debuts, but there are a few bursts of originality along the way.


I think this is a fair and reasonable overview. And I agree the story should have been told in four issues instead of six. Blasted bi-weekly gimmick.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
thoth lad #819510 09/08/14 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thothkins
Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
To each their own. But I reiterate:

I realize there's a difference between coming to these stories after having read comics for a long time versus coming to these stories while one is just discovering the superhero genre, which was the case with me.


I think there's undoubtedly something in that. I wonder if I cast a critical eye over some of the comics I began reading, what I would think now. I whistle and push past parts of Crisis for a start.



I've had the experience of critically analyzing the some of the Legion stories I grew up with. (My reviews can be found in the earlier Adventure re-reads threads, as well as scattered throughout on this site.) What I've found is that it is possible to critically analyze stories and come to a new understanding of their strengths and weaknesses without losing any of the love I had for them in the first place.

Case in point: Adventure 328 (reprinted in LSH v.1 # 1). This was the first Legion story I ever read and it remains a favorite largely because of that. However, the story itself is rather ordinary (and that's being charitable since the writer, Jerry Siegel, wrote some of the worst Legion stories). 328 is the first story in which a new member infiltrates the Legion, and the antagonist, Command Kid, virtually takes over the story, just as Thane Ector did, above. The art by Jim Mooney is often inconsistent and sometimes confusing.

Yet I think the story does have considerable strengths, such as illustrating the pratfalls of peer pressure and drug addition (which would have been quite forward thinking in 1965, when the story was first published). However, I'll confess that 328's charms are largely in my head.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819512 09/08/14 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady

As for Rage starting out with promise, that's in the eye of the beholder. I personally think he's on the level of a Tigra or a Psylocke in terms of unworkable hopelessness (although I also think Nicieza did the best he could with him in New Warriors, especially the odd-couple bromance between him and Speedball). But if you believe he had potential, I respect that.


I think Hama was going for a very subtle approach with the character--perhaps too subtle for most comics fans. smile For example, Rage's behavior and appearance make sense in the context of him being a 14-year-old kid. Considering that a lot of teens think it's cool to wear sagging pants (a mode of dress that originated in prison), it makes sense that one would think it's cool to dress like a gang-banger with the word RAGE emblazoned across his back. (Granny Staples, his guardian, takes him to task for this.) Likewise, Rage's confrontational approach in demanding Avengers membership and his single-minded commitment to social causes seem like the products of a young and immature mind.

Yet, as I noted previously, Hama took pains to show that Rage was well read and well spoken, and that he had a positive family role model (his grandmother, no less--in a medium in which few mother figures survive) who instilled in him a sense of right and wrong. In a company in which other black characters either started out as blatant stereotypes (Luke Cage) or distant African princes (Black Panther), Rage may have been intended to reach many African-American readers where they were. Many black children (as well as whites as well as children of other races) live in poverty, grow up without parents in their lives, and have to deal with omnipresent drug dealers. Rage may have been intended to be a positive role model who could show children (as much as any super-hero can) that they could better themselves.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
He Who Wanders #819526 09/09/14 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanfic Lady
It did, and I apologize for not acknowledging that in my poorly-thought-out, spur-of-the-moment reply post.


hey, thanks for even reading my poorly thought out, utterly spur of the moment as I'm reading the comic, reviews Fickles smile

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
[quote=Fanfic Lady]
I think Hama was going for a very subtle approach with the character--perhaps too subtle for most comics fans. smile For example, Rage's behavior and appearance make sense in the context of him being a 14-year-old kid.


He's 14? So, he's not a black stereotype so angry that he even puts "Rage" on his jacket? He's a kid (possibly with some serious steroid abuse issues)who has dressed up as a cross between his favourite wrestler and what he thought were cool threads. I never seem to have these sorts of conversations around the white characters.

On the plus side, it not all bad that this is shown. I've really disliked writers giving their favourites insights into other characters. An example being James Robinson's handling of Captain Marvel, where everyone could see "the child in his eyes" like it was some sort of flag. Incidentally, I nominate Robinson's entire Starman cast for Mary Sue status.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
thoth lad #819642 09/09/14 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thothkins

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
[quote=Fanfic Lady]
I think Hama was going for a very subtle approach with the character--perhaps too subtle for most comics fans. smile For example, Rage's behavior and appearance make sense in the context of him being a 14-year-old kid.


He's 14? So, he's not a black stereotype so angry that he even puts "Rage" on his jacket? He's a kid (possibly with some serious steroid abuse issues)who has dressed up as a cross between his favourite wrestler and what he thought were cool threads. I never seem to have these sorts of conversations around the white characters.


You're in the UK, right, thoth? I don't know the history of race relations there, but in the US it has been pretty bad, and comics have generally done a poor job of trying to represent black characters (e.g, Tyroc). So these sorts of conversations may be more common in the U.S., and, arguably, are necessary. smile

In Rage's origin story, it was explained that when he was 12, he was exposed to some kind of toxic waste, which gave him the muscular, adult build and super-strength. (I know: Only in the comics.)

Quote
On the plus side, it not all bad that this is shown. I've really disliked writers giving their favourites insights into other characters. An example being James Robinson's handling of Captain Marvel, where everyone could see "the child in his eyes" like it was some sort of flag. Incidentally, I nominate Robinson's entire Starman cast for Mary Sue status.


None of the Avengers were aware of Rage's true age until 341-42, as you will see.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819643 09/09/14 05:14 PM
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With the wonders of mailing lists, ulletin boards and web forums over the last couple of decades, I still don't have conversations like that about origins of white characters smile

I don't recall Billy Batson getting upset about his orphaned status or having any acceptance issues when he got transformed smile

I can't think of a country that doesn't have some form of racial tension at the moment, sadly showing just how far we've come as a species. frown


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819652 09/09/14 07:01 PM
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Maybe we should have conversations about white characters.

"Gee, it's a shame Tony Stark has to hide behind all that armor so no one can see he's white. What is Marvel trying to do? Discriminate against Caucasians?" wink

I have a feeling that Billy Batson cried himself to sleep every night because he couldn't understand why certain parts of his anatomy kept growing. smile

Your point is well taken about racial tension in other countries. frown frown


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819666 09/09/14 08:29 PM
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I have time for one quick review:

Avengers 340 (Late October 1991)
“Clay Soldiers”

Summary
When a woman is hit by a car while trying to contact the Avengers, Captain America, The Wasp, and Jarvis(!) find out who she is and that her five quintuplet sons are being turned into a reactionary army by her estranged husband. The two assemblers and their loyal butler infiltrate husband’s the compound and save the day—or do they?

Thoughts
Pretty much a by-the-numbers fill-in by writer David Micheline, penciller Paul Abrams, and inkers R. Jones and Chuck Barnette.

The story opens with a scene that would be more at home in a Legion comic: The Avengers are being honored at the opening of a medical research and treatment facility with humongous statues in their likenesses. (I don’t know if this super-hero medical center was ever mentioned again, but it’s a novel concept). Clunky attempts at characterization follow as Iron Man feels uncomfortable being around a hospital due to his recent heart problems, and Hercules uncharacteristically grumbles about being a token god and stand-in for Thor. Then a pretty blonde calls out to the Avengers and runs into the street—only to be struck by a car.

Now, I’m used to the notion that Marvel heroes can see danger coming and react quickly to it. It should have been nothing for Cap, Iron Man, She-Hulk, or Herc to stop the car or whisk the woman out of the way. But she gets hit, and this sets up another clunky attempt at characterization when two police officers comment that the Avengers probably won’t follow up because they never worry about the “little people.” (Where was Rage so he could holler, “Damn straight!”?)

But Cap, being a Mensch, agonizes over the woman’s identity while working out at 3 a.m., until Jan and Jarv come in with the results of their detective work. Here in typical detective TV show fashion, they and Cap tell us everything we need to know—information they just happen to have at the tips of their tongues—about the woman’s husband, Itzhak Berditchev, and his plans to turn his five 10-year-old sons into an army to protect the world against World War III. The two Avengers persuade Jarvis to pretend to be a gun runner so they can gain entry into Berditchev’s compound.

What follows is a mildly enjoyable romp that would be more at home in The Man from U.N.C.L.E. than The Avengers. We’ve got maze-like hedges, kids patrolling the compound in suits and machine guns, and lots of hidden booby traps. This stuff is straight out of any spy drama. It’s actually kind of fun to watch Cap and The Wasp outsmart the kids (kind of mean, too)—as if this is the sort of adventure they have in their “off hours,” when taking a break from major threats like The Collector and Doctor Doom.

For the most part, their bantering works, as well, although there is the obligatory useless exposition. Cap reminds us that Jan was a founding member of the Avengers while he was “floating around the arctic circle in a block of ice” to explain why he can leave her on her own. But this nod back to the Avengers’ distant past is both unnecessary and distracting. It’s like thinking, “Gee, I know my friend can ace this job interview because she graduated from high school 25 years ago.” Let it go, people! Why not respect Jan’s abilities because she’s done a lot of great things since then?

However, Michelinie must have realized that this was the ultra-serious ‘90s, so he tried to introduce some angst by revealing that Berditchev was rescued by Cap from a Nazi concentration camp as a young boy. Berditchev’s hero worship of Cap conflicts with his realization that the star-spangled Avenger is even now invading his fortress and making minced meat of his hired super-thug, Bulwark. But this dilemma leads up to a very unconvincing payoff: Berditchev simply regresses to his own childhood when confronted by Cap.

To drive home the ‘90s angst, Jan tells us it may be years before we know what effect this escapade has had on the children. Ho hum.

It would be easy to dismiss this story as just another fill-in without ramifications to the current storyline, and it is certainly that. But even a fill-in story should have a certain level of quality. This one starts off well enough, but then it just collapses—like Berditchev himself—at the end. We learn nothing new about Jan or Cap or Jarvis or anything else, for that matter.


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Re: The All Avengers Thread
He Who Wanders #819691 09/10/14 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders

"Gee, it's a shame Tony Stark has to hide behind all that armor so no one can see he's white. What is Marvel trying to do? Discriminate against Caucasians?" wink


Everyone knows that Stark hid behind the armour because he was really embarrassed about his acne. Of course, spending issue after issue in a tin can didn't help and added halitosis (mouth grill wouldn't fit a toothbrush and some body odor issues (stark had to use lubricating oil as a deodorant)

I've seen last pages that are supposed to be reveals because of the colour of a characters skin from Spiderman to Checkmate., which has always struck me as odd too.

I think James Rhodes was already an established supporting character, before he got the Iron Man suit. Then there's DC's Steel and was there not an idea that Ferro Lad was supposed to be non-white somewhere too. So, good point about hiding behind armour HWW smile

Review soon. But first....shopping!




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Re: The All Avengers Thread
Fanfic Lady #819727 09/10/14 09:22 AM
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Avengers 340

There's a lot of (possibly unintentional) subtext in the opening page. The commentator states that the Avengers are "--ever evolving to achieve it's greatest potential." Considering Captain America's own doubts in the last arc and Rage's uncertainty, there could have been some reaction to this. Not least from the wider community who saw them beaten so easily against the Brethren.

They are opening the "world's first super hero medical research and treatment facility." To me, that simply means that we will see stories of superheroes being experimented on by more and more twisted mad scientists.

Finally, it's a big building and a lot of funding has clearly gone into it. In a society with constant fear over health policy, we see an elite group receiving facilities that normal working people may feel some resentment over. Particularly if they consider the superheroes to be a magnet for a lot of the damage they bring. Especially since it's been built in a city devastated by the Brethren killing lots of people.

It's a shame this is a guest writer, so none of this is really linked to anything, and we may not see any of it developed.

Cap smiles like a loon; the Wasp is the effortless chairperson (even as a reservist-ever the red tape avengers); Iron man is troubled but easily distracted and Herc realises he's a Thor stand in. It's only a few panels, it's a little forced, but it does give a sense of things beyond this comic; Herc in Thor and Iron Man in his own series.

A mystery develops when a woman, dressed to allow the artist as many exploitative panels as possible, falls in front of a car with a message for Cap. One of the paramedics asks if the woman's words mean that she's familiar to Cap. A more obvious give away is Cap's hand on her butt in the second panel of page 4. Another mystery is why no one was able to help her before the accident.

Yup, it's a mystery. One Cap does nothing to progress by working out while the Wasp and Jarvis get on with some actual detective work.

You can have all the child guards you want, but only an idiot has overhanging trees next to their boundary walls. Thus the Avengers trespass into private property, while Jarvis pretends to be an unknown gun runner. With no credentials or background, he still lands an appointment. I don't think they even scanned for plutonium. What is all that odd equipment for in the mansion, of it doesn't get used?

An exercise in smugness begins as Cap and the Wasp take control of events, pretending to be affected by the defences. It really lessens the threat level and I groaned at the Wasp having a Master Antidote to the gas they both somehow know will appear. It's one thing to have them be prepared and competent, but another to be psychic. I imagine it's a plot convenience that we won't see again.

Like HWW, Cap explaining the Wasp's capabilities for no reason at all was jarring. More appropriate would have been "I wish I had come up with the idea to take the antidote. But that would take tactical thinking, and Jan has more of that that I ever show around here."
Beneath all this is a story of one man trying to do what he feels is right after suffering traumatic experiences, only to inflict his pain on the generation beneath him. That's something we see only too much of in the real world. Another possibility here is that the villain is trying to turn his own children into tomorrows Captain Americas. This could have been exactly the same goal as those behind the institute in the opening page had it been allowed to develop.

Instead of facing up to any responsibility or learn form the experience our villain regresses so quickly into childhood, I was looking at the background of the panel to spot a villain with a mind ray. The villain also loses points for having a giant half naked man hang around with his kids. With a cattle prod no less.

On the letters page, Danny Budge makes a comment echoing the rise of the second stringers in the JLA, but is left "enraged and humiliated" when someone who doesn't read the book tells him that the Sandman left the team over in Spiderman. Has anyone else ever felt "humiliated" by a comic? I've felt ripped off quite a lot in recent years, but that's been about it. Unless I'm blocking it out of course.


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