Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Yeah, Justice acted like it was the first week of his freshman year of High School, and Firestar acted like she was miserable but was willing to put aside any of her own thoughts and feelings for her boyfriend. Those are two portrayals I find absolutely terrible in fiction--the kind of thing my 11 year old self would write and consider characterization.

Lots of points all around but I especially agree about Cyborg. Anyone notice how Johns writes him as nothing more than "tech / robot guy + token black guy"? He's been around for 30 years! So there's been so much more depth there--did anyone ever bother to read any of his appearances?

HWW, I echo Fanfie: I'd love if you read the Harras / Epting era and think you'll be impressed. As usual she's got it right--if you have the chance, skip the fill-ins.

Agree all around on Silverclaw and Triatholon. They're groan worthy to the point where you want to be like "hey, let's remember, it was 1971 and writers were still finding their way with minority superheroes. Oh wait, this was 1999? What the fuck?!!"

Yeah, you'd never know from the way Busiek wrote Justice that this was a young guy who'd done time in jail for killing his father in self-defense. And Firestar had been the Reserved One to Namorita's Boisterous One in New Warriors, but she also knew how to lighten up and have fun sometimes -- again, you'd never know that from the way Busiek wrote her.

Oh, and by the way, Lardy, I forgot to mention in an earlier post that Justice and Firestar pretended to leave the team so they could infiltrate the Triune cult. God, that whole thing was such a mess!

Yeah, memory's kind of fuzzy on the details. The more forgotten about the Triune Understanding, the better, though, eh?

LOL

Yep.

I believe I stopped collecting with # 378, so I should still have all of those issues. Thanks for identifying them. I'll see if I can locate them this weekend.

The discussion about Firestar and Justice reminds me that I had completely forgotten about those characters--and with good reason, evidently. I didn't read New Warriors, so I wasn't familiar with them before they joined the Avengers. And though I liked the idea of a younger generation of heroes interacting with the veterans and perhaps carrying the Avengers' legacy forward, those two characters just didn't click for me. It sounds like they didn't click for most of us.

That is true. Particularly with characters like Katana, who you just mentioned. Cyborg, on the other hand, is black, but doesn't have any sort of 'African powers.'

It's sort of a catch 22, sometimes. A character like Iron Fist ends up being the blonde white guy who co-opts another cultures schtick, and that's kind of off-putting, but when a bunch of Asian martial artists or whatever show up, it seems like a stereotype / cliché.

It's interesting which Avengers might fall into or subvert such tropes. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver don't have 'gypsy powers' for instance, which is kind of cool.

Native Americans, on the other hand, range from Forge and Dani Moonstar, who avoid stereotypes, and Black Crow and Red Wolf, who kind of fall into them...

Wanda's hex powers veer into that kind of territory for me, particularly when they alter probability - an updated way of saying "curse." The whole witch part generally, really.

Quicksilver rises above all of this, showing that there are @sses in every culture.

Wanda & Pietro come from a whole sub-genre of "Marvel monster stories" that Kirby, Ditko and Heck were into from 1958 - 1963. This basically involved eastern Europeans, witches, gypsies, black magic surviving into the present day and the stigma attached to the Roma. The monster mags that eventually became superhero titles (Journey into Mystery, Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish and Strange Tales) had at least one story like this every other issue.

Many early Marvel characters have ties to this sub-genre: the Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver, Dr. Doom, Diablo, the Puppet Master, etc. Kirby especially liked to utilize the concept of "old world Eastern Europeans" maintaining ancient customs in the present day, as he had a lot of empathy for the Roma given his Jewish immigrant background.

Wanda's connection to the traditional "gypsy casting a curse" caricature is probably the most overt, but clearly Kirby was turning that concept on its head with his obvious introduction of Wanda leading to her eventual rise to superhero.

All that being said, Wanda was never written as a caricature or a stereotype in all the Silver Age and beyond. Unlike Silver Claw, who was on par with Apache Chief.

Okay . . . it looks like the discussion over Lardy's re-read of Avengers # 93-196 has run its course, so I hope nobody minds if I shift gears.

I went ahead and re-read Avengers 334-339, the start of the Harras/Epting era, and I'm eager to share my thoughts. I have to warn those of you who love this era, though, that I was not impressed with the first few issues; however, the story ("The Collection Obsession") picked up as it went along.

I also have no idea what my thoughts will be on the rest of the run. Although I read these issues when they came out (1991-94), I remember very little about them. It was actually interesting to re-read "The Collection Obsession" and have no idea where it was going. There were both good and bad surprises along the way.

So my goal is to post my reviews of each individual issue of 334-339, and go from there. With my work schedule, I can't commit to any particular schedule, but I'd love to do all the way to # 378, when I stopped collecting The Avengers.

So, lemme know if anybody has any objections to jumping so far ahead at this time, or do we want to continue the discussion of # 93-196 for awhile longer?

Huey, I've got a conclusion write-up to my project I'll be doing soonish, probably later this week. At that point, I'll consider it finished, barring any responses and conversation that may spin out of it. I'm not opposed to there being some overlap between my thing and yours. But if you'd prefer that one thing conclude and the other begin, I can see mine being done one week from now.

Either way, it's all good.

Thanks, Lardy. I don't mind the overlap, either, but I wondered if anybody else would.

If it helps, I see my final write-up appearing Tuesday night. Pretty certain of that.

I definitely don't mind any overlap.

Don't worry about a thing, He Who. Overlap doesn't bother me, there's no need to post on a regular schedule, and I know very well this era is not to everyone's taste.

Thanks, Cobie and Fanfie.

With that said, I'll post my review of Avengers 334 below.

I will proceed in my usual fashion, by posting a summary and then my thoughts on each issue. SPOILERS will abound, so if anybody does not want to be spoiled, you have been warned.

Launching . . . HWW'S HARRAS/EPTING RE-READ PROJECT

(Howzat for a snazzy title?)

Avengers # 334 (July 1991)
"First Encounter"

Summary
When a large ship crashes near the Blue Area of the moon, the Inhumans send Pietro, Karnak, and two others to investigate. Recognizing that his old Avengers pals may be interested, Pietro gets off a signal with his Avengers card (good at any ATM near you) before a force field traps him and the others.

On earth, the Avengers try to respond to Pietro’s message and are further alerted to danger by the timely arrival of Crystal and Lockjaw. They accompany the Avengers back to the moon, where Quasar, working with Vision and Sersi, disrupts the force field—and just in time, too, as Pietro and his Inhuman colleagues are enduring torture by a group of warrior-like aliens called the Brethren. Their sadistic leader, Thane Ector, learns that the moon is basically worthless; the real prize is earth. So, while Brethren warriors keep the Avengers busy, Ector, his lady Sybyl Dorn, and his sidekick, known as the Fool, depart for earth.

Meanwhile, the Avengers—joined by the Watcher—explore the crashed ship and learn that it belongs to the Brethren’s former captor, the Collector.

Thoughts
As far as beginnings of stories go, this is fair. Harras launches his first offering, the six-part “The Collecton Obsession,” in a typical Marvel style with a mystery to be solved. The opening scene gives us an opportunity to get to know Pietro, primarily. Karnak is there to represent the Inhumans’ Royal Family, and Timberius stirs up conflict by belittling the red shirt Alpha Primitive who accompanies them and later by giving Ector the information he needs.

It’s a shame that these characters are dropped after the first issue, because their interactions are more interesting than anything the Avengers do for the rest of the story line. This type of story telling—having the Inhumans briefly cross paths with the Avengers—created a sense of verisimilitude in Marvel titles; on re-read, however, I find it annoying that the characters who initiate the story do not see it through.

It also seems mighty convenient that Pietro, who has not been an active Avenger in some time, would think of them when he finds the ship. His signal is also unnecessary since Crystal and Lockjaw arrive to ask the Avengers for assistance.

In any case, the story gets underway and there are no real surprises here. Well, no, there is one. It has been (gasp!) 23 years since I last read these issues, so I had forgotten the changes the Avengers had gone through. At this point, the active lineup consists of Captain America, Vision, Hercules, Black Widow, Sersi, Quasar, and Rage. More Avengers will pop up in the next two issues, but this initial lineup consists of a relatively interesting mix of veteran and new characters.

However, very little is done with them either in this issue or next few. For the most part, the Avengers go through the shtick of reminding us who they are and what they do, and reminding each other of things they should already know. (For example, when Hank Pym enters the storyline, we are reminded—twice—that he can no longer shrink himself without suffering severe physical consequences. The Beast speaks French and German to remind us of his off-the-wall personality, and Cap is the tried-and-true warrior who does not let a busted rib cage deter him from going into battle. ) In other words, the Avengers go through the motions for most of "The Collection Obsession."

(By the way, it’s interesting that Thor continues to be featured on the cover’s masthead, but he never appears or is even mentioned during the entire story line.)

The story's emphasis eventually shifts to the villains, oddly enough. Thane Ector and his gang at first come across as run-of-the-mill space villains—born to conquer, yada, yada, yada. In this first appearance, they play that role to the hilt and offer nothing new. Soon a twist will be added to their purpose and origin, but, for now, it’s business as usual.

The art in 334 is by Andy Kubert, who is a more-than-competent story teller. However, he tends to draw faces which are overly dramatic and border on silly. Everybody seems to be shouting at the top of their lungs (Karnak on p. 3, the Alpha Primitive on p. 6, Hercules on p. 8) whether the situation calls for them to do so or not, and Cap looks like he’s suffering from a bloated stomach throughout. However, Kubert draws exquisitely beautiful women.

The dialogue is competent but uninspired; however, it provides one howl-worthy line of camp: “Destroy them, my Brethren. Their gaudy colors offend me.” (Somehow, I can imagine Lash saying this. )

So, 334 is not the best introduction to a new era in The Avengers; Harras, perhaps understandably, is finding his way. Less understandable, though, is why the last page consists of a text feature in which the Watcher tells us who the Brethren are. This sort of amateurish exposition is wholly unnecessary since the details it offers come out in subsequent issues.

He Who, I actually think your criticisms of 334 are valid. It is not a great debut issue. As you said, Harras is still finding his way. I think the same holds true for the early issues by most other Avengers writers I admire: neither Stern nor Englehart nor Thomas hit the ground running.

I do, however, think that this issue works better when placed in its proper context -- ever since Stern was fired after 285, the Avengers book had been mediocre at best, abysmal at worst. The issues immediately preceding 334, in particular, are something of an all-time low for the Avengers, in my opinion; Larry Hama just didn't seem to care; Bob Harras, on the other hand, did seem to care -- I think he brought an energy and conviction and a sense of urgency, all of which had been missing from the book for years.

If I had been introduced to Harras' writing of the Avengers by 334, I doubt I would have been impressed, either. I was introduced by 356, when things were already in full swing, and bought all the Harras back issues. I think overall, 334 to 375 (minus the aforementioned fill-ins by other writers) hold together as a great run -- that doesn't mean I don't think it has its ups and downs.

Finally, as for the Collection Obsession arc itself, I think it, too, needs to be placed in proper context. Originally, Harras was supposed to be writing only one arc of Avengers. IIRC, there was a switchover in editors shortly after Harras was assigned the arc, from Howard Mackie to Ralph Macchio, and it was Macchio who decided that Harras was worth keeping as the regular writer. If it wasn't for a connection between later events during the Harras run and a plot point in the Collection Obsession, I'd actually have recommended you start with 343. But I think Collection Obession does stand on its own a flawed but solid piece of work.

I remember thinking rather highly of Larry Hama's stint, though I'd have to re-read those issues to remember why. I do agree that the post-Stern issues as a whole were not very memorable.

Thanks for the providing the context of Harras and "The Collection Obsession." His status as temporary writer would certainly explain why he appears more invested in the villains he's created than in the Avengers themselves.

Ralph Macchio should have stuck to acting.

I have seen a couple other people defend the Hama era. To each their own. But Hama gave an interview several years ago to a now-defunct Avengers website that I frequented at the time, in which he came across as a cynical hack who really, truly, did not give a s#!t about the Avengers.

Here's what I wrote about the Hama era about seven years ago in this same thread:

Though the particulars are sketchy, all I can add is that it was during Hama's run that I dropped the Avengers after having picked up every issue off the stands for around 100 issues and having bought back issues well beyond that. At the time I was a fiercely loyal buyer of many regular series. It must have been pretty damn bad to get me to drop a book I loved! (Respectfully, your mileage may vary, of course, Huey.)

Seemed like several long-loved Marvel books felt my wrath around the same time: Spider-Man during the Clone Saga after Peter back-handed pregnant MJ, X-Men about 30 issues after Claremont & Cap around Cap-Wolf off the top of my head.

Off the top of my head, other low points of the Hama era include a cosmic demon trying to talk with a "black-cent" and two villains -- male and female -- uniting into a "perfectly balanced" cosmic being who was unambiguously male.

I'll agree that Rage was an ill-conceived character. The one scene that stands out in my mind all these years later is Cap and Rage having a debate about how black people are perceived as the two heroes enter a subway car. Rage enters first, and the sole passenger, a woman, acts terrified. When Cap enters, she is visibly relieved.

The scene was meant (I think) to show how some white people prejudge blacks, but it ignores the facts that 1) Rage, a still relatively unknown hero, wears what could be called a rapist's mask and a gang-like leather jacket, and 2) Cap is one of the most recognizable heroes in the Marvel Universe.

My off-hand comment about Hama seems to have struck a nerve with Fanfie and Lardy. Now I'm curious to go back and re-read those issues.

Like I said, I don't remember much in the way of specifics to throw in the discussion on Hama, only that he was definitely the writer when I dropped the book. It's fair to say that he didn't inspire me. It's also fair to say that the series had been so mediocre (at best) since Stern left that I was already primed to eventually drop it. If I'm right, I stuck out most of Hama's run and missed the beginning of Harras's by possibly less than 5 issues. If what Fickles is saying is true and that first arc reads like the fill-in it was supposed to be, I doubt it would have swayed me if I'd held out that long.

Wow! I just checked--and Hama's run was only 8 issues!!!