Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Fanfie,
You've got me curious about the Harras issues. Perhaps if I have time in the near future, I'll revisit them. With what issue does his run begin?

I know that Swordsman II was a different character, and, as I recall, the creators went to great pains to show how he was different: He was a more forceful, dynamic character, a "winner" to the original's "loser". Still, when you create a new version of a character who's been dead or otherwise gone for so many years, I have to wonder why it's necessary. (I suppose nothing in comics is truly necessary, but still . . .) There have been instances when long-dead characters have been revisited in one way or another that have actually worked despite my initial reservations. Bucky Barnes' resurrection as the Winter Soldier comes to mind--but that was such a well-told story that I accepted his return. I didn't feel that way with the new Swordsman.

I confess that I may be a little too close to the original Swordsman to accept the new version. Still, I like when there is a finality to characters in comics. I like it that the original Swordsman died and stayed dead, that Mantis went off to explore the universe and give birth the child who was going to save us all, and that the Black Knight was happy fighting the Crusades in the 12th century. Comics characters don't often get final chapters. It's a rare and precious gem when they do.

Bringing back a character and giving him a different identity is cheating. It's having your cake and eating it, too.

You make a great point about the Avengers being a team that is greater than whoever is in the lineup. I think the reliance on certain people being present started way before Busiek, however. I believe this started when Thor, Cap, and Iron Man returned on a regular basis in # 93. If my memory is correct, at least one of them was present in every lineup thereafter. (During Stern's run, there was a brief lineup of all female Avengers--Wanda, Jan, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel II--and Cap!!) It was actually quite refreshing to read some of the earlier stories when the lineup centered around Goliath (Hank), Wasp, and Hawkeye. Avengers # 52, in which the Black Panther joins, stands out as a memorable story to me because it focused on the less powerful members. T'Challa had to earn his victory against the Grim Reaper, and there were dire consequences if he failed (the deaths of Hank, Jan, and Clint). This sort of more intimate story is hard to pull off with The Big Three or The Big Seven (or so) as the established lineup.

I know that was tongue-in-cheek, but seriously, I've read a lot of articles on comics and participated in a lot of fan discussions over the past couple of decades, and you get a feel for what runs on this or that have been generally well-received, which ones haven't and which ones are generally never discussed (inferring mediocrity from their apparent irrelevance). And Stern's run (particularly the part with Buscema/Palmer) is spoken of with reverence pretty much without fail.

Now, it's quite possible that that's just that portion of fandom that bothers to write and post about comics, but until the silent majority speaks up and proclaims otherwise, we'll have to assume it's accurate!

True story: I just put up my entire Michelinie/McFarlane run of Amazing for sale via consignment at my local CBS. I thought about it, and I realized there was no sentimental value in that run for me and nothing I'd really want to re-read. We'll see if the issues sell (I'd already sold issue 300--first full Venom--for a cool $150), but I can't honestly say I'll miss them. I may buy a collected edition of the run at some point on the cheap for the sake of completion, but then again, I may not. By contrast, I wouldn't part from DeMatteis' issues for anything.

(This whole consignment thing is something I've been doing for over a year now to finance my new comic books, make some extra coin and de-clutter my home and storage space. The way I see it, I keep what I love and sell what I don't. In some cases I sell the originals and replace them with trades or hardcovers because I prefer the better print quality of the reprints. yeah, I know--SACRILEGE!!! )

[Benny Hill]When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME.[/Benny Hill]

Over my head, too, until this read. It's probably because I never realized that Perez designed Taskmaster. But reading it here, it was apparent.

I've had my eye on the WCA Omnibuses (again, I have the originals, but I'm a reprint snob) for a while, especially since experiencing Englehart's original run in its grandeur and recalling how much I loved the period when Stern and he were the Avengers writers at the same time. My memory recalls a lot of exciting and fun stories during his WCA run.

As a teenager, the Mockingbird thing went over my head, but I recall feeling pumped when she killed him. That whole time travel arc seemed really exciting. I'm sure I'll pay particularly close attention to that arc when I eventually re-read it. I suppose that what I like is that it was implied between the lines, just like Englehart did with Mantis having been a prostitute. At least, in WCA it was clear that something terrible had happened, when Avengers 200 tried to make it seem like Carol was fine with everything and that she and her rapist were riding off into the sunset.

The short-lived Hawkeye and Mockingbird series (that pre-dated by a year or two the current Matt Fraction Hawkeye) revisited the storyline with her rape and the Phantom Rider, and I thought they did a creditable job on the sequel without sweeping anything under the rug.

I'm honestly at a loss to know how rape could be handled well in an all-ages superhero comic. We've discussed it here and there in this very thread as it comes up or is implied in some of the storylines within and in the future. One thought is that it has absolutely no place in the genre. Another is that it shouldn't be ignored if handles properly. I honestly don't know what the answer is and if there's an story out there that exemplifies how the latter school of thought was handled well.

Yeah, I don't know if the Big Three Rule is on Busiek. All or at least one of them was present throughout Stern's run. Honestly, he may have used all of them if certain storylines (Simonson's Thor epic, Tony's alcoholism, etc.) hadn't kept certain of them out of the lineup at various times. It looks like Englehart might have been as much to blame as anyone as all had some degree of presence throughout his run and set the standard for future writers.

True, Busiek used all three at the same time probably longer than anyone else. I'll bet that George was really pushing to draw them, though, too. I'd rather have an Avengers were some combination of the three had a continued presence than one where these PLUS Spider-man and Wolverine were staples! Now, THAT's not the Avengers!!!

slight divergence... but Perez is quite open about his costume inspirations Cyborg=Deathlok, Raven=Phantom Stranger, Starfire =Red Sonja.

I got a lot of the Avengers run in back issues, so I've dipped in and out over the years. I did buy the Busiek/Perez issues, strangely stopping an issue or two after Perez left which is probably telling. But I enjoyed a fair part of it, very possibly because I wouldn't necessarily pick up on the continuity the way a more regular reader would.

I got the same feeling about Triathlon that I got over Falcon though. Both were handled clumsily for me.

As is often the case, I enjoy when the team books feature more characters who aren't seen as much in other books (so, while I consider Captain America, Iron Man and Thor to be very important Avengers, I'd rather see people on the team like Silverclaw or Living Lightning or Stingray, that I'm not going to see elsewhere).

Triathlon was an odd duck. The entire premise of his introduction was that the team was supposed to sort of resent his being forced in, and that carried over to the fans. The same thing happened with Gyrich, ages past, but there was nothing racially charged about making a grumpy white government official for everyone to automatically dislike, while making a rare black superhero on a team that is generally pretty white into a figure that the fans are supposed to dislike might have come across a bit tone-deaf (and carried over to other new characters, like Silverclaw, who, IMO, got caught in the backlash against the way Triathlon was introduced to the team, despite, IMO, having done nothing to earn any such animus).

.

The Taskmaster / Deathstroke information was neat. I'd always felt that one was a take off of the other. And then there was Prometheus, who felt like a second rate knockoff of a first rate knockoff, and was assembled out of scraps left over. Prometheus is one of the rare characters that I'm glad is dead, as he's not a patch on the @$$ of either of the characters whose schtick he's (badly) copying.

You'll notice I did compliment the Don Newton art (more on him on another reading project pretty soon, btw). Plus, the surprisingly emotional finale for Tony helped make the story a lot more worthwhile than expected. However, if this was intended to be the first 2 issues of an aborted Mantlo/Newton run, I'm not sure the best way to start would be to connect to a recent Iron Man story. Plus, the threat of Arsenal felt pretty overblown when all it really took was for thor to get a direct shot at it.



Yeah, one way Clint comes off pretty impressively is from how much of a threat Deathbird would later pose. Of course, this was a rare appearance of her not written by Claremont (having previously appeared when he wrote Ms. Marvel's book), so she was probably written incorrectly. It's hard, though, to recall eactly what her power level was--doesn't seem like she was a huge heavy-hitter?

As for Clint, I felt he was written consistently. Brash, cocky, a little angsty and full of ingenuity. I've already commented about his rudeness to the Falcon and the misplaced blame, and that was certainly on display here. Other than those scenes, it was spot-on, imo.

That's interesting. I never thought about those comparisons, but they are all absolutely there. But at the same time, the similarities don't feel like rip-offs. It's fairly subtle, especially with Cyborg/Deathlok and Starfire.



I feel the run was one where you didn't have to know all the Avengers history in its accessibility. That's probably part of what Fickles is upset about because it's kind of a soft reboot. Some of this was necessary, imo, after all that Crossing, Onslaught and Heroes Reborn in particular that immediately preceded the relaunch.





Yeah, how were we ever supposed to like Triathlon under those circumstances?!?! Honestly, that whole Triune Understanding plot never really went anywhere.

Honestly, Triathlon, Silverclaw, Justice and Firestar could have had potential as Avengers, but I think this is a case where the Big Three and the other perennials overpowered any potential they might have had, along with the Triune mess.

I'm delighted that you're curious about the Harras issues, He Who. His run starts with 334. If you still have the issues in your collection, that's great. If not, there are a lot of fill-ins by other writers to avoid (my feeling about that at the time was, and continues to be, that if fill-ins were what it took for Harras to do his best possible work, then so be it.) Those fill-ins are 340, 352-354, and 370-371 (also, 341-342 are technically fill-ins, but Epting does draw them and they're well-written by Fabian Nicieza.) I recommend stopping after 375, though, as it's all downhill from there.

Lardy, the only example of rape that I can think of that was handled sensitively was the rape of Abby during Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run, and technically, it was a comic book aimed at more mature readers even before it lost the Comics Code; plus, Swamp Thing wasn't really a superhero book, even though superheroes made guest appearances.

Regarding Triathlon and Silverclaw, I think that while Triathlon's portrayal may be more overtly offensive, Silverclaw is more insidiously offensive -- she came off to me as an outdated Latin stereotype with ridiculous speech patterns. Being Latin myself, I found that very offensive in the context that most of her appearances were from 1998 to 2002, by which time the portrayals of ethnic characters were generally more enlightened.

Lardy, I very much look forward to talking more about Don Newton in your upcoming project.

Deathbird admittedly couldn't have been portrayed at that time as savagely as she was in her later appearances. But I think she still should have at least wounded Clint.

The soft reboot of the Busiek era is indeed one of the things I dislike so much about it. I don't think it was necessary, because there was no reboot after Jim Shooter's second Avengers run, just Roger Stern coming in and writing good stories that respected everything that had come before -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I thought of that one, but like you say, it wasn't exactly a mainstream superhero book despite the fact that it technically was.



Even worse, considering that Perez was Busiek's partner and is Latino himself. Given his cache in the biz as artist, creator and writer, it's unfortunate.

It really is unfortunate, even more so when one factors in that Perez had helped make Cyborg such a well-rounded Black character in New Teen Titans.

I've recently bought some classic '70s era Batman trades, and one of them collects nothing but Newton-drawn stories--it's GORGEOUS!



I suppose that subliminally helped me be impressed with what Clint accomplished solo that issue. I recall that her talons were no joke.



As bad as the pieces that Stern had to pick up, I'd say Busiek had an exponentially tougher challenge. But one good thing he could have done was to include, say, Sersi, Dane or even Monica Rambeau in the line-up to show more of a nod to recent incarnations (though all available Avengers did appear in the opening arc). I'm sure that, though a lot of it is on Busiek, that Perez probably had a lot to do with determining what Avengers he wanted to include and draw as well. All of the returnees from that initial line-up is culled from character George drew in his last go-round.

Vic was a great, great character, black or otherwise. Maybe Marv and George drew a little from the "angry black man" stereotype on the surface, but what anger he had was justified and only a small facet of his character. I miss the nuanced well-rounded character of Vic and how nuanced DC characters are pretty much gone in general.

I have that All-Don-Newton Batman trade! It's supposed the be the first in a series collecting all the Newton-drawn Batman stories. And, yes, it's wonderful.



Oh, yeah, a lot of it was certainly Perez -- notice that when Swordsman II and Magdalene left our universe in Avengers Annual 1998, it wasn't drawn by Perez. After Perez left, there were a bunch of left-field reserve Avengers during that white elephant of a Kang story, but Busiek didn't really do much with most of them.

YES!!! Can you believe I got that beauty for only $11 including shipping?!?

Funnily enough, I was really after the Gene Colan Batman trade because I recognized the cover and knew it contained a great Batman story involving vampires that I remembered reading from my childhood. well, the same seller offered the Newton book, and I bidded on that one without recognizing it's contents. Well, turns out I lost the Colan auction (got it later) and won the Newton one. When it arrived, I realized it printed some other fondly-remembered Batman stories, including the conclusion of a Batgirl story in which she had been shot. (I wish it had the first part, too, but Don didn't draw that one, and the conclusion was more of a Batman story.) It contains a number of stories from when I was picking up the dollar giant run of Detective, so childhood = partially (further) reclaimed!

And did I mention that it and the Colan book are fuckin' GORGEOUS?!?!?

Re Cyborg: I may have read Wolfman thinking they had overdone that aspect of the character to begin with. They did have reason, but it fell into the steroetype.

Re Silverclaw: I think I was on my way out, when she was appearing - I remember one or two appearances. I'd much prefer characters from any ethnicity have more regular powers, rather than always having to draw from their heritage. Such backgrounds should add extra depth to a character, not define them.

Re Black Knight/Swordsman: Have they ever used their swords against anyone as cutting/stabbing weapons? Like bank robbers or super villains? I've always found them difficult to like, because they carry around these weapons, only to ever use the flat of the blade or pommel.

The DC equivalent is Katana. She's in the Outsiders. A group run by the guy who doesn't allow guns. But he's happy for someone to run around with a sword?

Re Busiek/Perez: I probably fell into the target audience for the soft reboot. I had picked up one or two Avengers issues since Inferno (which I though was dreadful). Onslaught etc looked terrible, and it neededsomething with the clout of Busiek & Perez (mainly Perez) to get me to go near the book. I had read enough Avengers that I got to nod along with a number of the references. I didn't feel left out by others I didn't get. I didn't really notice that much of a difference between that team and the ones I'd read previously. Although it was clearly on the side of the big hitters, the Avengers roster changes frequently enough that it wouldn't last for too long.

As much as I like Firestar, Justice never did anything for me at all.

The original Swordsman actually killed a bad guy during the chapter of Avengers/Defenders War that featured himself and Valkyrie! I was a little surprised when reviewed that issue and more surprised that it wasn't addressed afterwards.

Black Knight used his sword to slay a monster-ized Marrina (of Alpha Flight), and it started this blood curse with his Ebony Blade. can't remember how it played out, but I wasn't fond of that storyline.



Ultimately, it felt like their presence was a waste of time, especially with their sudden departure. Was it for another New Warriors relaunch, or was it as arbitrary as I remember it?

Thoth, Silverclaw was pretty much shoved into our faces throughout the Perez issues, including a terrible spotlight arc for her. She didn't recede until after Perez left. Maybe your mind is blocking out the awfulness?

And I still think that something viable could have been done without the soft reboot and without the biases of Busiek and Perez. What was done was the easy, lazy option, something which the Avengers had never taken before.

Regarding the Black Knight, Harras gave him a kind of lightsaber that could either stun or kill, depending on which setting it was on.

Regarding Firestar and Justice, I was appalled by the way they were portrayed, which was completely inconsistent with the way they'd evolved during Fabian Nicieza's New Warriors run -- and they actually stuck it out to the bitter end of Busiek's run.

I think you may be right. I remember her arriving - was she working with the villains sort of like Terra?

I remember some connection with Jarvis. I remember a couple of dull fights - Magnum (dull)? ... and her making no impact on me whatsoever.

Oh did they visit her home country? I think my attention was gone by that point. A Kulan Gath story much like previous Kulan Gath stories.

I recall the Ultron arc and not a huge amount afterwards. But that was still 2-3 years worth of issues, which isn't terrible.

I don't recall precisely, but I think she was duped by the villains.



Jarvis was her adoptive uncle or something like that. And the Avengers vs. Magnum arc was ripped off lock, stock, and barrel from the Claremont/Byrne X-Men vs. Magnum arc.



LOL Exactly.