Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Spaceopoly Justice League Idol!! (WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!)

62 (Pre-Flashpoint) Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) 4
62 (Pre-Flashpoint) Zauriel 4

ouch, I would have voted for Supergirl ...

I mean she died in Crisis too!

Maybe you just missed seeing her on the list way back in Round 2

Great game IB! There's nothing I like more in comics than the element of surprise and this result was certainly that!

Dinah or Shayera had seemed like the pre-destined winner since all the way back in Round 3, so well done to Barry for bucking the odds.

I wonder if he still would have won in a re-vote?

Looking forward to the Legion Villains game.

That's the one. Beasts was a good story but WOW was it gory for a pre-Crisis JLA tale! As a kid, I remember being super-disturbed by what happened to Hawkman and those poor archaeology students. And don't Aquaman and Elongated Man suffer equally grisly fates? Along with a few of the others? I wouldn't be surprised if that was Geoff Johns' favourite comic growing up.

The Fiatlux Trilogy was another fairly gruesome tale IIRC. It had some great character moments though and will always hold a special place in my heart because this part of it -

http://www.comics.org/issue/1138523/cover/4/

- was the first DC comic I ever bought (JLofA #200, which I've mentioned being the first DC comic I ever read, was a gift).

For the trivia lovers among us, that story also holds the distinction of bring the FIRST story in JLA history to not include any of the founders.

Fun game, y'all! Although I didn't vote until the very end, I've been tracking the game all the way through. And if I had voted during the game, the Flash would always have gotten my top vote.

Really glad you decided to jump in, Tracker. Even though I didn't vote for Barry, I can certainly accept him as the winner.



Glad you enjoyed, Blacula! And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised that this round turned out to be so... surprising AND exciting!

Amazing how disappointed I feel to have Barry beat out Dinah, even though Barry's been my second place vote for a little while now, and has been in my "acceptable" winners all along.

Hey IB, how about a Legion creators Idol? Levitz vs. Shooter vs. Waid vs. Sherman vs. Abnett vs. Giffen vs. Swan etc.

Oh, I'm intrigued. I remember Firestorm and Superman being crucified in Beasts; but I don't quite remember what happened to the others. How gruesome is gruesome, exactly? I do remember that some of the human-beast hybrids were unwilling participants, and I seem to remember some sort of gladiatorial battles going on too.

As for Fiatlux, I don't remember much either. Care to spoil too? My comics are in storage so may take a while before I can dig them out.

Well, if we assume only the 2 voters who picked Shayera change their votes...

Quislet voted for Barry in the round before, while Dave has never voted for either Dinah or Barry in the whole game! (I checked my records). So if we assume Quis votes for Barry, he already gets 9. The best Dinah could get is 8, if Dave picked her.

I think Barry would still have won, but of course we'll never know for sure unless we have a re-vote. I don't think we need to though

It's also interesting that our two last-round newcomers, Reboot and LT, had different picks!



Maybe it was disappointing because it was so close, Xben. But Dinah was really a juggernaut throughout the game, and dominated the vast majority of rounds!

Oooh, a Legion creators Idol! Sounds great, we could have one for artists and one for writers. Would we need to separate pencillers from inkers from colorists, I wonder? Maybe we can have that right after Legion Villains.

Eh. Nostalgia is a powerful thing. I loved the idea of Barry as scientist and hero, back in the early '80s, but he died, and I got over him, and got all invested in Wally growing into the mantle of Flash.

Twenty five years later, Geoff Johns 'brings back' a character that's nothing at all like the Barry Allen I remember so fondly, which just put a damper on my love for the original character.

Thirty years ago, I would have voted for Barry, the competent grown-up and respected scientist and hero and husband. But that character no longer exists, except in my back issues.

Indeed, 'competent', 'respected', 'grown-up,' 'hero' and, especially, 'husband' seem to be unacceptable these days. It's all Flashbro and Bro Lantern.

Despite really liking Shayera, I'd have felt a twinge at seeing her beat Barry. Which is what looked really likely in earlier rounds along with Dinah.







I didn't give a single thought bout the returned Flash all the way through JLA idol. Wally taking over the Flash costume is part of that legacy.



I'm sure this would be fascinating just to read everyone's thoughts on the writers/artists down the years. But with voting too? Wow!

I am disappointed with the results...but as one door closes, another opens! The LSV Idol is going to be grand.

If you do a Legion Creator's idol, I don't think you'd need to separate pencillers and inkers - that gets too complicated (where does Keith Giffen on "breakdowns" fit, for example?). In fact, I don't think you even need to separate artists from writers. It all comes down to which creator made the greatest contribution to the series, and of course, who we just "like" the most. Imagine trying to choose between voting for Dave Cockrum or Ed Hamilton! I think that'd be cool. You could even throw editors in there (Mort Weisinger, Karen Berger, etc.) Imagine just trying to come up with the initial list!

....which means that, statistically, their votes had no effect on the outcome if you realize that all the regular participants' votes would also have crowned Barry if those two hadn't voted! In effect, Reboot and LT's votes insured the same outcome!

The only variable is that some later voters who may have otherwise voted Shayera may have changed to Barry or Dinah when they perceived Shay as having no chance. I don't think it would've been enough to make a difference, but it's a possibility.

IIRC, some of Ibby's previous similar contests featured the final round votes via Private Messages to him, presumably to avoid any influencing of votes based on what we see everyone else doing. I purposely voted early that round to avoid being influenced. I'm not saying it's how the final round should be conducted, but I'm just throwing it out there.

BTW, I'm still SHOCKED AS HELL that Peebz voted for Barry after Shay was his Numero Uno all the way otherwise!!!

If Ronnie/Prof Stein had made Final three with Barry, I wouldn't have been able to suddenly change course at the last minute!

SHOCKED AS HELL, I say!!!

That's right, even if both Reboot and LT hadn't voted, the results would have been the same! But I can't deny that some Shayera voters may have switched to Dinah or Barry when they saw no votes being thrown Shayera's way; or after they had read the eloquent reasoning of other voters.



That's an interesting consideration, although I think you may have gotten me confused with someone else. I don't recall ever having used PMs to collect votes in any games I've run.

Actually, the PM method had been suggested to me shortly after Multiverse Legion Idol. It has its advantages, but two things made me think about it -

1) Why have it for just the final round? Even a single change in rank in earlier rounds could spell dramatically different outcomes; we've determined that if a certain voter had switched Firestorm and Zatanna on his list three rounds ago, it would have been Zatanna going home instead of Ronnie and the Prof. Several voters have also purposely waited to vote near the end of the round because they adjust their votes based on others' votes. And there are also many of us who take previous rounds' results into account; at least one of us has admitted to abandoning several poorly-performing favorites in earlier rounds.

We could actually use the PM method throughout the entire game to eliminate the potential influence of others' opinions.

But then this brings me to Point 2 -

2) A large part of the fun on these games is the discussions we have on the characters. The PM method may largely eliminate that. On the other hand, voting by PM also won't stop us from discussing right here in the thread, or in other threads (like the one's Peebz and thothkins, mostly Peebz, started in Gym'll's). I think that sort of discussion could also be a large influencing factor.

I do think the PM method is worth a consideration though. What does everyone else think?

Oh, I like that. For Idol games I think we should make the list as complete as possible, so pretty much anyone who has ever worked on the Legion could be included.


I would definitely need help making this list!

Because most of my issues are back issues, for the most part my appreciation of each creator's contributions would not be as deep as someone who really followed their tenure issue by issue as they came out. That's one downfall to note picking up each issue as it comes out.



Yes, and thanks for agreeing to help me with the list! I'll post a first draft maybe next week, and we can spend another week or so finalizing the list before we begin the game. I'm pretty excited about it, and I'm already thinking about which villains I like.

Would villains-turned-heroes like Preboot Spider-Girl or Lightning Lord do well? How about somewhat sympathetic ones like (arguably) Tayla Wellington or Postboot Mano? Or would we just pick the vilest of the vile?




Thanks for the spoiler, thothkins! Wow. That was pretty bad, those look quite painful.



Their dynamic really has changed, huh? Post-Flashpoint Hal, Diana, Clark, they're all quite different, from what I've seen. That's why I think separating characters into versions, where it makes sense, is very important in these games, like with the Hawks clarification way back in Round 1.

I'm not necessarily advocating this method, just stating how I'd thought you'd done that final round in the past. If it wasn't you, it was something similar someone else did.

Yeah, if this ever happens, I'm in favor of putting all creators on equal footing...writers, pencillers, inkers and so on...all on the same expansive master list to face off!

That's the way to go then! One ginormous list of creators, with footnotes as to which run/issues they worked on. Yahoo!




Oh yes, I got that. It just made me think though

I prefer the discussion. PMs might feel too intrusive and make the thread feel dead and the contest non-existent to anyone not in the PM chain.

If influence of votes from seeing other posters votes is perceived as an issue, we could spoiler text our votes, and only the other votes who *want* to see other posters votes would have to see them before the big reveal at the end of the round.

I didn't use the word 'vote' enough times in the last sentence. Vote-y vote vote McVote.

Actually, if we consider the influence of only the two last-round newcomers, Reboot's vote helped create the tie you thought you'd have to break. The main reason I voted, obviously, was because I could see how the votes were going and knew that mine would make the difference in the outcome. Does that make me a conniving sentient?

Yes, Legion Worlders, it was Tracker, and Tracker alone, who robbed you of your tie-breaker round! BWAHAHAHAHA!

No, wait. It was Tracker who SAVED you from that team-destroying tie-breaker round that the villainous Reboot forced upon you. Yes, and RESTORED to you the outcome that you had already created. Yeah, that's it.

Anyway, I couldn't resist following up my post from 2 weeks earlier about how everyone's votes would reach my "correct pre-ordained" outcome.

And now we know why Peebz suddenly abandoned Shayera in the last round! It was Tracker's fault all along!



I also prefer the discussion and would not want to do away with that. The SPOILER tags are an interesting compromise. I'd like to see if anyone wants to adopt this approach for the next game.

1. I prefer votes in-thread rather than by PM.

2. Not that I really care (I'm not as invested in creators as I am in characters) but if we pit artists against writers, we may as well just go ahead and give the award to an artist now.

Maybe I'm projecting here, but I think most people will have ambiguous feelings toward most of the writers who've written the Legion, whereas their opinions of the artists will be more consistent.

For example, I love George Perez and Alan Davis's art unreservedly. Whereas I only love what Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning wrote up until the end of Legion Worlds, and then despised the rest. Similarly, I love what Mark Waid wrote in the Reboot, but his Threeboot stories still to this day have me wanting to see every member of that team graphically dismembered and their universe destroyed.

So if it ever comes down to a competition between any of those creators, the artists will win every time because they don't carry the same negative baggage that the writers do.

I think people will have similar feelings about most of the writers who've written the Legion - Paul Levitz, Jim Shooter, Keith Giffen, etc. - all had praised and panned runs.

3. Will the LSV Idol game include every Legion villain ever? I'm hoping it will. I'm sure there's a hidden underground of us Evisceratronic fans.