Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Spaceopoly Justice League Idol!! (WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!)

Forgot to check out the site and try to vote for this:


1. (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)
2. (Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Wally West)
3. (Pre-Flashpoint) Martian Manhunter
4. (Pre-Flashpoint) Batman (Bruce Wayne)
5. (JL Unlimited Toon) Flash (Wally West)
6. (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
7. (Pre-Flashpoint) Booster Gold
8. (Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Barry Allen)
9. (Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (John Henry Irons)
10. (Pre-Flashpoint) Nightwing / Batman (Dick Grayson)
11. (Pre-Flashpoint) Atom (Ray Palmer)
12. (JL Unlimited Toon) Hawkgirl
13. (Pre-Flashpoint) Superman
14. (Pre-Flashpoint) Aquaman
15. (Pre-Flashpoint) Oracle
16. (Pre-Flashpoint) Plastic Man
17. (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Lightning
18. (JL Unlimited Toon) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
19. (Pre-Flashpoint) Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
20. (Pre-Flashpoint) Mister Miracle
21. (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
22. (Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman (Diana)
23. (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
24. (Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (Shayera Hol, Silver Age)
25. (Pre-Flashpoint) Ice (Tora Olafsdotter)

Hawkwoman: Although I didn't think of it like this reading them, the relationship/marriage with Hawkman. A lot of other heroes were hiding their secret IDs behind glasses or pining for their desired mates decades after their first appearance. The Hawks were past all that.

Their different personalities as they worked as a team were also a big plus. Hawkman being the more direct, aggressive one, while Sheyera being the wittier, probably smarter one.

There was a lot of Thanagarian tech in the satellite era; the teleporters, space craft etc. So they were important elements. Plus that mix of alien technology and ancient weaponry also looked good.

Like the Hawks and the Dibny's, Black Canary had a almost grown up relationship with Ollie particularly in the satellite era towards the JL Detroit run. While not all charatcers need this, it does provide built in relationship tension while still allowing the focus to be on the League scale story.

Canary stayed with the League when he quit and was never a back up to him. Ignoring the weird retcon, she has a legacy that goes all the way back to the first JSA crossover in the title. I also recall the cover when she joined, standing over the fallen JLA.

Diana has always been a more interesting character than the bland big blue boy scout. She has always been a more consistent character than the Batman in the league, as the Batman's personality was sometimes tricky to write. I liked her non powered Sekowsky run too, so even her non powered appearances were interesting. When Superman had to fight a Leaguer in the same power bracket, it was Wonder Woman.

Zatanna is my least favourite here. It was a shame to see her powered down in the league, but at least it made her powers predictable. Her budding relationship with Barry Allen, her introduction where she burns the ballot. I think she could have done with a lot more character deveopment. Even in the small JLDetroit team, we had the Adam storyline that didn't work out.

That's an interesting analysis, thothkins. Looking back, married superhero couples ARE very rare in DC Comics. And yes, Shayera and Dinah made nice balances to Katar and Ollie, respectively, without being submissive/second fiddle to them.

Agree on Diana being more interesting than Clark. She was less naive and more worldly than he was.

You also have a good point that Zatanna didn't see quite as much character development. Though she always seemed to me like she didn't have many problems or issues, which is refreshing.



Xben! It's really good to see you back!

With Zatanna, we could have seen more of her stage show. To know that she was a celebrity outwith the league would have been interesting. How do people views magicians in a world where magic is real and there are superhero feats occurring all around them?

The downside is that she shacked up with Constantine...

Interesting about problems and issues. A character who is well adjusted and..and..happy? That reminds me of Ayla Ranzz who also seems to just be well adjusted and positive.

Hmmm. Maybe that's why they made up that whole awful Adam storyline!

Her stage show would have been interesting. Maybe expand Zatanna's world by introducing artist/visual effects/magician friends. Maybe show a side of her that likes traveling to places of mysticism - like a road trip to ancient temples across Asia.

I will definitely help. I think we should divide the villains by comic book ages (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Modern/Platinum) since their actions were highly dependent on the confines of censorship. I also like Marvel (grinding my heroes to level 60 on Marvel Heroes) so I can help with that too.

Most of my Hawk-Love would come out of stories outside of the JLA proper, including that great run in World's Finest, the Shadow War stuff, the Hawkman series (where Katar was taken out of commission and Shayera got *vicious* with Lionmane). There was also the excellent "Legend of Hawkman" Mini-series that was out of continuity because the Turman Hawks were in, but was a superb showcase for the silver age Hawks, especially Shayera.

Thanks, Emily. That would make for a very long list, though. Maybe we can see how long the list gets, before we decide whether we should "merge" some of those villains into one.



Thanks, Dave. Those sound like some really interesting books to read. I always knew Shayera, while not as aggressive as Katar, could be just as tough.

I would honestly think just a generic "DC Villains" game would be far, far too massive to be feasible. You'd need to limit it to sets of villains (Legion Villains, Bat-Villains, etc), otherwise you'd easily be above a thousand, wouldn't you?

Running the game isn't what worries me, as the first 2-3 rounds can easily trim the list down. It's generating the list that could be problematic. The only list I think I could manage to generate is the Legion list, I have limited experience with other sets of characters.

I also do think that having too many versions of characters (with the same real name) could be confusing. It worked alright for the Multiverse Legion game because we're all Legion fans, but might not work for more obscure villains.

Aw man, of course Shayera is great ... that's why they based the cartoon version on her! when she'd been out of circulation for decades (?)

I just always loved her and Hawkman together, they were smart but not the smartest, more like the dependable ones, not tacky geniuses. And Shayera was always witty before witty was cool and over played and she had a couple snarky moments but she had valid points when she was being a *itch. she spoke her mind and it was absent of gender implications.

A couple things more recent that got her just right and really took her up a level were her story in Alan Davis' the nail ... and her appearances in JLI ... I always loved Katar as well, and her and him together ... he was dry and she was good with punch lines ... they had a really awesome dynamic, had interesting alter ego jobs where they got to travel and always be in exotic places but it was a studious bookish job that they seemed genuinly interested in, which is even more interesting because they were from another planet and were space explorers.

they just seemed really really normal and fleshed out even though they got little air time.

Shayera and Katar always came off as super brave back in the day when they really just had wings and a mace. but they were unsung as well.

then there was that one time they faced certain death in the martian war, one ship against a fleet but they pulled it off. but even then, they showed they were scared ... this stuff is just so much more fleshed out than the Batman's or the Iron Man's that seem so arrogant, they'll always pull it off, etc.

Katar and Shayera really seemed like an equal couple in the later days of the Silver Age even having marital problems and taking separate vacations because they were growing apart, not because he was getting more air time than her or being sexist or something ... IIRC.

Plus they were ex pats ... they weren't orphans, that's another added level of complexity. they chose to be outcasts or live someplace different. they were cool.

It also really helps they havent been butchered and stripped ad nauseum like the big three ... (Hawkman and Hawkwoman TOTALLY HAVE but these two seem distinct from the resurrection Hawks) I have no idea who the big three are anymore, and many others, or what their history is. granted i never was very fascinated by the main leaguers ... i dont really care about spider man and wolverine either ... i dont know why, maybe i dislike them for different reasons. i do really like barry allen and see how people could like hal jordan. they've got a character slant, we know who they are.

I always just thought Zee was quite cool and she got a couple stories near the end of the satellite era and the detroit era. she always seemed like a nice person and got to grow up a bit in the detroit era and have a solo adventure and guide younger heroes.

i dont hold her out of character mind wiping against her or her current fashion choices. that stuff is just way weird.

Black Canary has also been a character who has been fairly consistent in identity throughout each era and boot, she's a main stay, someone who keeps things going.

And I really liked actually her story where she was put in her daughter's body ... I understood it different that her daughter was brain dead and/or from a pocket dimension or something and the first black canary's brain completely went into the empty vessel.

I thought it was cool that she's a ninja with a sonic scream (which has fluctuated in frequency or power over the years), but she's got two lifetimes of experience compared to everyone else's one ...she's a WWII veteran ... good enough to get on the JLA.

I have to say, I started reading the JLA when most of the big "guys" were too good to appear in it and people had to beg the superman or batman team or even the frickin aqua man team to let them be in a league issue.

so that was a bit of a turn off, and the later half of the satellite era had some really good stories, fantastic stories completely hindered by the lack of most of the JLA, and some really good art and:


happened to feature Black Canary, Zatanna and Hawkwoman.




[And sometimes Hawkman (but he and Shayera were a united couple mostly unlike Green Arrow who just seemed like Black Canary's bimbo or a whiner)]

I doubt we would include every villain; we would definitely have a set number. I think we would have to narrow it down to villains who have appeared in at least three issues in their respective era. We also have to think if we truly want to include characters like Kite-Man.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't include Kite-Man. He was a fairly prominent villain who made multiple appearances against a variety of heroes.

If we start culling characters because of their perceived 'lame'-ness, then that would a) negate lots of characters pre-1970; and b) lead to arguments about who exactly fits the bill (I would consider a one note, overused character like the Joker a lot lamer than Kite-Man for example).

I share other people's concerns that a generic DC Villains game would just be far, far too much. There are literally thousands of them. People would have to be cutting hundreds of their favourites in Round 1 and that wouldn't be fun.

I'm not sure why a specific Batman Villains or Flash villains or so on game wouldn't work. There would be more than a couple of hundred in each to choose from. Maybe we could do a Batman Villains vs Superman Villains vs Flash Villains vs Green Lantern Villains sort of thing?

I don't get the idea of doing a generic DC villains list either.

I'd suggest just constructing lists from Wikipedia's existing lists of enemies for various characters/groups (e.g. List of Justice League Enemies), and then modifying the list as necessary. Which is pretty much the same way we've done it for the heroes.

^^On a quick count, it lists 165 Justice League enemies, of which quite a few are actually groups, so that should give us at least 200 villains, before even discussing multiple versions of the same character.

I agree that having a set number wouldn't work. It would make the list too arbitrary. The whole point of these Idol games is to make lists as extensive as possible. You never know which minor/obscure character could be someone's favorite.

A Legion Villains game would be good, we could sort villains into Preboot, Postboot, Threeboot and Legion Toon versions. We'd probably end up with around 500 (considering that many villains only ever appeared once - think the likes of Stheno, Cherry Bomb, Pollen, the Immune, Doctor Mayavale, Nardo...), and would probably take 2-3 rounds before we trim the list down enough to get into ranking.

I confess I wouldn't be quite so interested in running multiple villains games for other DC heroes/teams. After Legion villains, I'd rather do an X-Men, Avengers or JSA game.

I always thought so too. If toon Shayera was heavily based on comics Shayera (and I think she was), I can definitely see the appeal. Sadly, I only ever really read Silver Age comics Shayera in JLA so my experience with her is rather limited.



Yeah, I loved her interplay with grumpy old Katar back when the Hawks in JLI were still supposed to be Shayera and Katar. And I loved her use in The Nail and Another Nail.



I'm OK with her mindwiping. It was a choice she shared with Hawkman and Atom and Flash, and her intentions were good. I don't agree with the actions, esp. because of the terrible consequences. Besides the stories looking into her origins, I don't think much has been done about Zee's background though. And that's a major shame.



I don't know much about her history, but I did like when she became JLA chair after the Infinite Crisis mess. Despite her brief tenure she was effective, and I found it extremely silly that the writers had her resign in what basically was a temper tantrum. Bah.

To me a good villain should have decent plots and decent powers/abilities/a sense of humor. By what other standards would we judge super-villains in an Idol?

We could make things easier and just make it Modern Era, so we don't have to worry about silliness caused by censorship.


Would there be enough fans to support individual characters? I ask because I ran a X-Men Tournament, and I had a hard time getting consistent participation. The X-Men are arguably the most popular team in comic books.

We've never specified criteria for voting in these Idol games before. Voters are pretty much free to choose their favorites, we're not really voting for the most effective or most powerful hero. Just like in real-life American Idol, it's not really about the best technical singer or the best performer; it's about the contestant who can move voters enough to vote. That's also why I introduced the ranking system; yes, maybe all 11 of us include Character A in our lists. But if we only place Character A in Rank 25, and Character B only makes it to 2 lists but gets Rank 1 in both, Character B still easily wins over Character A. Liking a character doesn't have to be based on prescribed guidelines. I like Fire for her powers and effectiveness as a hero; I like Sue Dibny because she's a wonderful character who had a great relationship with Ralph and contributed greatly to the League in a support position.

Re the size of the lists...



Re participation for individual games, let's ask around in this thread. What do you all think? Personally I would participate more in Heroes games than in Villains games. And I would prefer Villains of Hero teams (i.e. JLA villains, Legion villains) over Villains of individual heroes (i.e. Bat villains, Flash villains). I'm sure others have different preferences though.

The league wiped the minds of the Injustice league didn't they? Back in a Ultrahumanite plan where bodies were switched. I'm sure there are lots of other mind wiping examples in comics, but that's the main league one I recall. I think that it came from that. Batman quit the League to set up the Outsiders around the time of that, and that was tapped into as well.

I don't think the X is as popular here as they are in the outside world, DC seems way more popular here.

Also, we might all need a bit of break after this Idol ends. It seems difficult to keep the intensity up for long.

I'd suggest starting with a Legion villains game, and then seeing how far the interest can be maintained after that.

I agree, let's go with Legion Villains after this. Maybe a couple of weeks after this ends so we can all recover a bit (tallying votes is at least an hour's work :p). Then let's see where we go after that.

So, it's 2 AM here, I just got home and I'm really tired. Hope you all don't mind, but I'll end the round in the morning (probably go to work early and do it there). Then I'll make Round 4 extend up to Wednesday/Thursday due to the US Memorial Day celebs.

^^Love!