Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Spaceopoly Justice League Idol!! (WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!)

And thinking that her daughter had died, only to find out she herself was the supposedly dead daughter - and the person she thought she was, was her "dead" mother!

^ It's funny how complicated and icky that whole Black Canary retcon is in retrospect because when I first read it at the time, I thought it was a really clever and interesting way to explain the age different between Dinah and her former JSA teammates. It made comic-book sense to me.

Can I also just mention how awesome the whole story leading up to that reveal was too. One of the better JLA/JSA team-ups IMO. I loved the way the Thunderbolt was going around picking off the JLA members who had no ties to the JSA, and that the villains used were all call-backs to the earliest JLA/JSA team-ups.

I remember reading that story too and thinking how epic it was. I'm trying to recall if Dinah ever wondered, in-story, about why she seemed so young? Did they try to tie it to Aquarius, before this story was written?

I read something a few years back that praised the Canary story, so I went back to read it and thought the reveals were just a terribly clunky way to try and make Canary younger. Put another way, had that part of the story not happened at all, would anyone have cared less?

In my post crisis fan-brain where characters age from their original appearances, a much older Ollie is considered a bit of a perv for shacking up with the daughter of the original. Mostly due to that story. His general leching hasn't helped much either.

Hmm... the original BC debuted in 1947. Setting the debut of the Earth-1 GA in about '57, that would probably make her about five to ten years older than him. Since the second BC was born at least a couple of years after the JSA disbanded in 1951, that would make her a teenager when she shifted to Earth-1 in 1969, and probably about fifteen years younger than him. Of course, with Earth-2 using more a fixed dating system and Earth-1 more of a floating "comic book time" system, GA and BC1 were getting further apart in age while GA and BC2 were getting closer together all the time. It's a mess anyway you look at it, though.

I don't think I've read that story since I was a kid, and honestly don't remember anything about it except the big reveal. It's definitely one I should revisit.

The aging of characters is something I ignore when reading comic books.

Very broadly it went something like:-
Green Arrow was say 25 in 1941 when he started out.
Black Canary debuts in 1947 at say 21. Ollie is 31.
Black Canary quits with the JSA in 1950. She's 24 and he's 34.
Black Canary has a child with Larry Lance in 1951. Black Canary is 25 and Ollie is 35.
Black Canary II joins the single earth JLA in 1967 - She's 16 and Ollie is 51.

An older Ollie also fitted in with the idea he was older than his peers in later comics.

But in reality, as soon as they are aged you're going to have to start making big life decisions for them. Big marketing decisions go along with that. Reboots lie ahead.

Like with Quis, I never thought about Dinah or Ollie's ages before that story brought it up. Thinking back now I am pretty sure that story was also the first time a daughter was mentioned.

Well, at least the Post Crisis continuity had a happier childhood for Dinah!

^ Except that's the Earth-2 Green Arrow (who never dated Black Canary and died in the Crisis) that TK is describing. The Earth-1 characters are all younger than their Earth-2 counter-parts so there's no way JLA Green Arrow is anywhere close to 51 when Dinah joins the team.

Despite the years of their inventions, it's quite clear from the stories that all of the original 14 JLAers are in that 27-30 age range. Zatanna is probably slightly younger when she joins the team, and their 16th member (17th if you count the Phantom Stranger), Firestorm, is their first teenager.

I'm also completely against the idea that there was anything pervy or lecherous about the GA/BC relationship pre-Crisis, or that Ollie was in any way not in total love with Dinah until Mike Grell (the worst thing to ever happen to Green Arrow and Black Canary IMO) and Judd Winick (who's just one of the worst things to happen to DC in general) came along.

The GA/BC relationship was explored quite a lot in JLA during the Satellite years (in comparison to most of the other team members, especially the only other couple on the team, Hawkman and Hawkgirl) as well as in their various back-ups in places like World's Finest and Action Comics and so on, and their's always seemed like one of the more realistic and healthy relationships IMO. Which makes this post-Crisis idea that Dinah was in some way inhibited or mistreated by Ollie totally whack. Unlike say Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Adam and Alanna Strange or Aquaman and Mera or many of the other 'both are a super-hero' relationships of that period, you got a real sense that Dinah and Ollie could go off and have independent adventures of their own and then return to each other as equals. Which Dinah frequently did - as evidenced by her frequent solo guest appearances in places like Brave and Bold and DC Comics Presents, as well as her many appearances in Justice League of America without Ollie.

Wow, I'm kind of glad I didn't know anything about all this Black Canary weirdness!

How 'bout that Caity Lotz, can she work a salmon ladder or what?

Oooh. She's hot. Almost enough to turn me straight!



You have a good point there, Blacula. I really liked Ollie back in that era. Despite his being a loudmouth, he treated Dinah with lots of respect. And I never had the impression that he would cheat on her, despite his roughness (but not to her). I really hated the subsequent characterizations where they turned him into a bit of a lech - I think this was a post Crisis development, as thothkins described.

Re the names of Dinah Jr. and Dinah Sr., just calling the mom "Dinah Drake Lance" isn't enough to identify her for us people from the Philippines. We always take both parents' surnames. So, if my Mom is a Reyes and my dad is a Tan, I'll be <something> Reyes Tan. The full name of my mom would be <name> <her mom's surname> Reyes Tan. My dad's full name would be <name> <his mom's surname> Tan.

Yeah, we end up with some pretty long names...

Okay, it's late and I'm tired so let's get cracking! I'm starting the tallies now!

<furiously stuffs ballot box>

ROUND 2 RESULTS ARE IN!

To get past Round 2, characters had to have gotten votes from at least 1/4 of voters. 11 of us played, so 11/4 = 2.75. Round it up, and a character needed 3 votes to make it.

We lost 31 characters in Round 2, leaving us with 56. Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...

Nobody got 100% of the vote.

10 votes (91%)

(Pre-Flashpoint) Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)

9 votes (82%)

(Pre-Flashpoint) Elongated Man
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (Shayera Hol, Silver Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Martian Manhunter
(Pre-Flashpoint) Vixen
(Pre-Flashpoint) Zatanna

8 votes (73%)

(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkman (Katar Hol, Silver Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman (Diana)


7 votes (64%) - our first post-Detroit members!

(Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Barry Allen)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Metamorpho
(Pre-Flashpoint) Oracle
(Pre-Flashpoint) Plastic Man

6 votes (55%) - back to the earlier years, though Black Lightning didn't join until way, way after the Silver Age.

(Pre-Flashpoint) Aquaman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Atom (Ray Palmer)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Black Lightning
(Pre-Flashpoint) Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Light (Kimiyo Hoshi)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Wally West)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Ice (Tora Olafsdotter)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Superman

5 votes (45%) - our first toon character! And look at how far Reddy has fallen, whereas Zee has retained her top ranking

(JL Unlimited Toon) Hawkgirl
(Pre-Flashpoint) Batman (Bruce Wayne)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Big Barda
(Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Fire
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Mister Miracle
(Pre-Flashpoint) Phantom Stranger
(Pre-Flashpoint) Power Girl
(Pre-Flashpoint) Red Tornado

4 votes (36%)

(JL Unlimited Toon) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Adam Strange
(Pre-Flashpoint) Booster Gold
(Pre-Flashpoint) Gypsy
(Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (Hank Heywood III)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (John Henry Irons)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Tasmanian Devil
(Super Friends) Black Vulcan

3 votes (27%} - a mishmash of characters from various eras and mediums here. These 15 are veeeeeeeery lucky, just barely making it through.

(JL Unlimited Toon) Flash (Wally West)
(JL Unlimited Toon) Vixen
(Pre-Flashpoint) Captain Comet
(Pre-Flashpoint) Captain Marvel
(Pre-Flashpoint) Crimson Fox (Constance d'Aramis)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Etrigan / Jason Blood
(Pre-Flashpoint) Mera
(Pre-Flashpoint) Nightwing / Batman (Dick Grayson)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Red Arrow (Roy Harper)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Rocket Red 4 (Dimitri Pushkin)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Silver Sorceress
(Pre-Flashpoint) Snapper Carr
(Pre-Flashpoint) Sue Dibny
(Pre-Flashpoint) Tomorrow Woman
(Super Friends) Apache Chief

We say goodbye to the following...

2 votes (18%)

(Pre-Flashpoint) Animal Man
(Pre-Flashpoint) Captain Atom
(Pre-Flashpoint) Creeper
(Pre-Flashpoint) Deadman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Firehawk
(Pre-Flashpoint) Firestorm (Jason Rusch)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Guy Gardner)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Mary Marvel
(Pre-Flashpoint) Orion
(Pre-Flashpoint) Vibe
(Super Friends) Samurai

1 vote (9%)

(JL Unlimited Toon) Karate Kid
(JL Unlimited Toon) Superman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Blue Devil
(Pre-Flashpoint) Catherine Cobert
(Pre-Flashpoint) Congorilla
(Pre-Flashpoint) Donna Troy
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Connor Hawke)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Huntress
(Pre-Flashpoint) Oberon
(Pre-Flashpoint) Ray
(Pre-Flashpoint) Starman (Mikaal Tomas)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Thunderbolt (Peter Cannon)

No votes

(JL Unlimited Toon) Dawnstar
(JL Unlimited Toon) Wonder Woman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl (Shiera Hall, Golden Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkman (Carter Hall, Golden Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkman (Katar Hol, Post Zero Hour - Hawk Avatar)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Zauriel

Nooooo, Firehawk! Oh the humanity! And, uh, a bunch of other people I didn't care about. Oh the platypusmanity...

I love that only about half of us bothered to vote for Superman or Batman. We are such unconventional conventionalists.

And now, round 3, where, as the kids say, **** gets real.

Don't worry Set, <redacted> made it through



Not just that, but Bruce is the least popular founder! (One point below Aquaman and Hal). J'Onn is now the top founder (well, Dinah is depending on which continuity you believe), with Diana a close second.

There were some fairly big shifts in rankings here, because of the smaller list size. Characters like Ronnie Raymond, Red Tornado, Power Girl, John Stewart, Booster Gold, John Henry Irons, Captain Marvel and Mera saw their votes drop by about half. Poor Animal Man and Captain Atom, who were fairly safe in Round 1, failed to get lucky again in Round 2.

The Hawksplanation was timely; both Golden Age Hawks failed to get any votes this round.

A lot of duos continue to be split - Hawkwoman/Hawkman, Booster/Beetle, Fire/Ice. But Mr. Miracle and Big Barda get the same number of votes.

And finally, being in a love triangle does wonders for one's popularity. JLU Hawkgirl, Vixen and John Stewart all made it through!

We loves us some women, here at LW! The ladies always do well, and we tend to vote against the grain.

(If this was on a more traditional site, the votes for 'most popular DC character' would probably be an even split between Batman and Wolverine...)



Yeah, three characters that got a great push in the cartoon, and really brought them to life, in a way that their comic book use occasionally did not.

Similarly, the Young Justice cartoon might have given audiences their first real glimpse at Icon or Dr. Fate as Leaguers in a generation. (Well, the first look ever at Dr. Fate as Giovanni Zatara, actually...)

ROUND 3 BEGINS!!

And Set WAS right, because the nass gets real this round!

56 characters remaining; we have a manageable enough list to begin the ranking! Wahoo!

Please rank your Top 25 characters! (yes, I decided to ease us all in gently As early as Round 2 a lot of us commented that we'd slashed our lists in half!)

Points will be given as follows:

Rank - Points

1 - 300
2 - 250
3 - 210
4 - 180
5 - 150
6 - 120
7 - 100
8 - 90
9 - 80
10 - 70
11 - 60
12 - 50
13 - 40
14 - 35
15 - 30
16 - 25
17 - 20
18 - 16
19 - 12
20 - 9
21 - 7
22 - 5
23 - 3
24 - 2
25 - 1

Bottom 16 going home, bringing us down to 40!

This round ends...? (I'll decide in a bit). Possibly Sunday night Philippine time, which would be Sunday morning LA time.

House Rules

1) Each round will last about 48 hours. I will try to end each round at the same time, but this won't always be possible because of work.

2) I'll vote at the start of every round to minimize bias on my part.

3) I don't actively encourage editing of votes; it's a smart tactic but may be unfair for those who don't get to log on as often. However, I won't disallow them either. I'll only tally votes at the end of each round (to make it easier on myself!). I'll post on this thread the minute I start tallying to alert everyone; votes that come in after that will be ignored.

4) In case of errors in the results, I'll post a correction immediately. If anyone's vote was affected by the error, that poster will be notified by PM immediately. If the poster cannot correct his/her votes before the end of the round, he/she will get a makeup point next round - a +15 bonus. This only applies to instances where I made the error, and not where the poster made an error.

5) Points will be given based on your ranking. The higher you rank a character on your list, the more points that character will get (e.g. Rank 1 gets 10 points, Rank 2 gets 9 points...) Point distributions will change per round.

6) Exception to the above will be the first 1-2 rounds of the game, which trim the list down considerably. Each vote will count as one point, and characters below a certain point threshold get eliminated.

7) Because several characters have the same code name, and because the list includes multiple realities, PLEASE SPECIFY which character you are voting for. I won't make assumptions for votes which don't identify the character clearly. Example, if you vote for:

1) Superman
2) Maya
3) Elongated Man
4) Green Lantern (Pre-Flashpoint)

I'll only count the votes for Maya and Elongated Man. I have no way of knowing if you're voting for JLU Superman vs. Pre Flashpoint Superman, or whether you're voting for Hal, Kyle, Guy or John.

Your 56 remaining contenders!

(JL Unlimited Toon) Flash (Wally West)
(JL Unlimited Toon) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
(JL Unlimited Toon) Hawkgirl
(JL Unlimited Toon) Vixen
(Pre-Flashpoint) Adam Strange
(Pre-Flashpoint) Aquaman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Atom (Ray Palmer)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Batman (Bruce Wayne)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Big Barda
(Pre-Flashpoint) Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Black Lightning
(Pre-Flashpoint) Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Booster Gold
(Pre-Flashpoint) Captain Comet
(Pre-Flashpoint) Captain Marvel
(Pre-Flashpoint) Crimson Fox (Constance d'Aramis)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Light (Kimiyo Hoshi)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Elongated Man
(Pre-Flashpoint) Etrigan / Jason Blood
(Pre-Flashpoint) Fire
(Pre-Flashpoint) Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Barry Allen)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Wally West)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (John Stewart)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Gypsy
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (Shayera Hol, Silver Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkman (Katar Hol, Silver Age)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Ice (Tora Olafsdotter)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Martian Manhunter
(Pre-Flashpoint) Mera
(Pre-Flashpoint) Metamorpho
(Pre-Flashpoint) Mister Miracle
(Pre-Flashpoint) Nightwing / Batman (Dick Grayson)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Oracle
(Pre-Flashpoint) Phantom Stranger
(Pre-Flashpoint) Plastic Man
(Pre-Flashpoint) Power Girl
(Pre-Flashpoint) Red Arrow (Roy Harper)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Red Tornado
(Pre-Flashpoint) Rocket Red 4 (Dimitri Pushkin)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Silver Sorceress
(Pre-Flashpoint) Snapper Carr
(Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (Hank Heywood III)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (John Henry Irons)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Sue Dibny
(Pre-Flashpoint) Superman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Tasmanian Devil
(Pre-Flashpoint) Tomorrow Woman
(Pre-Flashpoint) Vixen
(Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman (Diana)
(Pre-Flashpoint) Zatanna
(Super Friends) Apache Chief
(Super Friends) Black Vulcan

And I am procrastinating because I am finding it very, very hard to rank my Top 25



With Lobo coming a close third. And we'd have to close the thread during Round 1 because of all the flame wars going on




You know, at first I was toying with the idea of adding the Young Justice members in, but frankly... I forgot Since nobody brought them up, I just totally blanked on adding them in. Oops! Maybe next time we have this game.

I just love how these games tend to end up with a good balance between the sexes. Although, all 4 winners so far have been female. I wonder what will happen this time? (if Power Boy has his way, we'll have another female winner :p)

Has anyone told Peebs he doesn't get to sleep with the winner?

Or were we not telling him that?

Maybe we should tell him he CAN sleep with the winner. That way we might end up with a male one.

Man, I'd just agonized over my top 10 (the three people vying for the tenth slot are in bloody pieces on the floor, I made them fight it out), and you let us pick 25! Now I'm just hopping and skipping through the list to snag more people.

IB,

You might want to extend this round a little. Monday is a holiday here in the US (Memorial Day IIRC )

Here are my votes:
1) (Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Barry Allen)
2) (Pre-Flashpoint) Red Tornado
3) (Pre-Flashpoint) Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond)
4) (Pre-Flashpoint) Atom (Ray Palmer)
5) (Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (Shayera Hol, Silver Age)
6) (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
7) (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)
8) (Pre-Flashpoint) Zatanna
9) (Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman (Diana)
10) (Pre-Flashpoint) Rocket Red 4 (Dimitri Pushkin)
11) (Pre-Flashpoint) Vixen
12) (Pre-Flashpoint) Aquaman
13) (Pre-Flashpoint) Elongated Man
14) (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
15) (Pre-Flashpoint) Plastic Man
16) (Pre-Flashpoint) Martian Manhunter
17) (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Lightning
18) (Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Light (Kimiyo Hoshi)
19) (Pre-Flashpoint) Ice (Tora Olafsdotter)
20) (Pre-Flashpoint) Fire
21) (Pre-Flashpoint) Oracle
22) (Pre-Flashpoint) Power Girl
23) (Pre-Flashpoint) Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
24) (Pre-Flashpoint) Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson)
25) (Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Wally West)

1. (Super Friends) Apache Chief
2. (Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (Shayera Hol, Silver Age)
3. (Super Friends) Black Vulcan
4. (Pre-Flashpoint) Hawkman (Katar Hol, Silver Age)
5. (Pre-Flashpoint) Zatanna
6. (Pre-Flashpoint) Elongated Man
7. (Pre-Flashpoint) Atom (Ray Palmer)
8. (Pre-Flashpoint) Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond)
9. (Pre-Flashpoint) Red Tornado
10. (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
11. (Pre-Flashpoint) Flash (Barry Allen)
12. (Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman (Diana)
13. (Pre-Flashpoint) Steel (Hank Heywood III)
14. (Pre-Flashpoint) Aquaman
15. (Pre-Flashpoint) Superman
16. (Pre-Flashpoint) Batman (Bruce Wayne)
17. (Pre-Flashpoint) Plastic Man
18. (Pre-Flashpoint) Gypsy
19. (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Lightning
20. (Pre-Flashpoint) Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
21. (Pre-Flashpoint) Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)
22. (Pre-Flashpoint) Vixen
23. (Pre-Flashpoint) Martian Manhunter
24. (Pre-Flashpoint) Adam Strange
25. (Pre-Flashpoint) Metamorpho

Thanks, Quis! I was originally planning to end the round on my Sunday night, which would be the US' Sunday morning. Should I extend up to Tuesday night, which would be the US' Tuesday morning? Seems a bit long though, four days. (and major thanks for your reminder, I forgot to indicate when I planned to end the round!)



And while you're doing that, I'm having 4 characters fight for my 25th slot. Then I'm having the 25 fight it out for the rankings...!