Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Combining 'boots (or, having your cake and eating it too)

I was wondering how to combine elements of the various Legion continuities without sacrificing any of them (or, as little as possible!).

An example of this line of thought;

1) Invisible Kid(s). Lyle Norg is the first Invisible Kid, a brilliant young earth human who develops an invisibility serum. He also forms the first Espionage Squad, and is resident ‘team genius’ until Brainiac Five hopelessly outclasses him on the research front, which he takes in stride by throwing himself fully into his Espionage Squad activities. At a certain point, he realizes that he needs to take an extended leave from active duty to go into deep cover, infiltrating a corrupt administration / villain organization. Many of his own teammates are not even made aware of these plans, due to fears of a traitor on the team (perhaps tie this in to the Nemesis Kid-recruitment era?). And so Lyle fakes his death to Validus, with only other Espionage team-members Phantom Girl, Shrinking Violet and Chameleon Boy being told the truth of the matter (Imra, Dreamy and Brainy figure it out on their own).

Still in deep cover, Lyle is initially unaware of the second Invisible Kid, Jacques Foccart, who discovers and ingests his original formula, but suffers some health-issues initially, until Brainiac Five is able to modify the serum to work for someone with a different biochemistry.

Jacques sister, Danielle, goes on to reside at the Legion Academy after an incident merges the Computo AI with her damaged brain, creating a young child with a computer mind beyond compare.

Lyle has, in the meantime, refined his formula to make himself invisible to many other types of detection, particularly mechanical and psionic means, and even to be able to project false images to bioscanners and lesser telepaths. He has managed to infiltrate to a useful position in the Dark Circle, and later chooses to remain a ‘free agent’ until Jacques Foccart retires from the team to take up a government job as diplomatic laison, one of the duties of which is coordinating between the UP, SPs and Legion. At this point, Lyle Norg returns to his public Legion role.

This retcon allows Lyle to have been the first Invisible Kid, to have 'died,' Jacques and Danielle to have been introduced and had their respective roles, and Lyle to return to active Legion status, after Jacques has left for government service. I'm not a fan of retcons, but in this case, it's a retcon to *keep* things, rather than cut stuff out. Instead of cutting away bits of Legion history, they are preserved, only not entirely as we thought they happened, and fans of each of the Invisible Lyle and Invisible Jacques and Kid Computo don't get shut out.

Invisible Kid happened to be the first one to come to mind to 'amalgamize' in this way, and I have no doubt that the creative minds here could come up with ways to do this with most of the Legionnaires, past and present. Even Star Boy, who would be trickier than most.

Oh.My.Lord. The basics of Lyle faking his death as part of a deep cover operation is something I was just thinking about. I swear. When I read that first paragraph, I forgot to breathe for a second. It was spooky-conincident-serendiptious.

I was thinking that Gas Girl might be involved, pretending to be Myla and would later join him on the espionage mission- which I had an idea for, but that really isn't relevant.

S&TLSH 203 was the first Legion comic I ever bought. Obviously, it hooked me. Nevertheless, I've always thought Lyle's death was... lacking. I was excited when it appeared that Levitz was resurrecting him shortly after the Great Darkness saga and was disappointed when that fizzled.

That disappointment turned out to be worthwhile, though, since reboot Lyle became one of my favorite characters ever.

Nice idea for a thread. I hope it gets lots of 'play'.

Didn't someone post something similar before?

Love it with the exception of the "totally outclassed on research" angle. I like to tell my students it is diversity of thought that is often mistaken for "genius," everyone has something big to contribute. I enjoyed the post ZH take on IK's research abilities and the ES.

Great minds thinking alike? Or stuck in the same gutter?

I was kinda hoping people would run with it also. I’d love to see an interpretation of Timber Wolf or Princess Projectra or Star Boy that would work with what has come before.

It would surprise me if someone hadn’t. I like aspects of various ‘boots, and think that one of the biggest mistakes made in previous ‘reboots’ has been ignoring what has come before, rather than trying to work with it.

In this case, ‘though, Lyle could be twice as smart as Brainy, and it wouldn’t matter. Brainy doesn’t seem like the type to ‘share’ the lab-space gracefully… I think that Lyle is more of a specialist, particularly gifted at his own biochemistry stuff, while Brainy pretty much is an expert in anything he wants to be an expert in, while Lyle has *other* stuff going on, Espionage Squad stuff, so he can make more difference and have a bigger impact as a Legionnaire than hanging out in the lab arguing with Brainy. Brainy is ‘the smart guy,’ and *nothing else.* That’s his schtick. Lyle isn’t quite so focused. [That isn’t meant to be an insult to Brainy or Lyle. Brainy’s ‘super-power’ is that he’s beyond-human-smart. Lyle doesn’t need to stomp all over that area to be an effective Legionnaire, IMO.]

A very tidy idea to bring Lyle back! It would have conspiracy undertones (always good for a sub-plot) since a few Legionnaires would be in on the scheme and a few others figure it out.

There was one instance in the post-boot in which Brainy acknowledged that Lyle was the expert in biochemistry. I figured that Lyle would be more the practical scientist and Brainy the theorist - based on the post-boot flight ring story.

One question: would the Validus attack be staged (if so, who would be controlling him) or something that Lyle just took advantage of to stage his disappearance?

If you simply add Imra to the group that is involved, she could simply convince a small group of Legionnaires that they have "seen" Validus' attack and witnessed Lyle's death.

Or you could replace Imra in that scenario with Jeckie, who would then have cast an illusion to convince the witnesses and cover Lyle's tracks.

Set, I love this idea! I'd second Vee's nomination for Imra to have aided
the effort; I can see it (think Sensor Girl, Conspiracy, etc).

If Saturn Girl's in on Lyle's plan, then no other Legionnaire need be involved.

I like that this also hearkens back to the Element Lad/Mystery Lad debut issue.

Clever idea, Set.

However, even though Invisible Kid was one of my first favorite Legionnaires, I grew to accept his demise as part of the inevitable price that the Legionnaires paid for being super-heroes. I think I would have felt betrayed if, many years later, it was revealed that his death was a hoax. (Levitz and Giffen nearly went this route at one point in the early '80s by resurrecting Lyle, but this version turned out to be an extra-dimensional monster masquerading as the dead Legionnaire. While I was initially disappointed in this storyline, I grew to respect the creators for maintaining the integrity of Lyle's heroic death.)

The reboot, on the other hand, recreated the character of Lyle Norg and developed all of the potential that the preboot ignored, such as his Espionage Squad membership and rivalry with Brainy. The reboot Lyle was almost a completely different character in terms of personality and his effectiveness as a Legionnaire.

Combining the various boots of the character may be possible, but I'm not sure it's at all desirable, as both of the above versions would lose so much of their individuality in the process.

There's a great thread somewhere where Eryk basically fixed all the Legion's problems. If Eryk wrote the Legion, I think it might actually work.

The groovy thing about my re-mix Legion is that under Geoff Johns's criterion (that if you squint really hard, you can pick up any random issue and the story in that issue kind of-sort of happened, albeit in a massively re-written manner!) it actually qualifies as the original Legion! And the reboot and threeboot Legion as well!

I had considered that the Espionage Squad would be the only ones 'in' on the event, but that Brainy, Imra and perhaps Dreamy would twig to it pretty darn fast, given their powers.

But a secret held by *six* different Legionnaires makes less and less sense... Having it *just* be Imra might work better, as she could also help Lyle to learn techniques to resist telepathic discovery, during his 'time away.'

I agree and disagree, 'cause I'm schizo that way.

I also don't like 'dead' characters coming back to life (Jean Grey, I'm looking at you!) and cheapening the entire impact of their death. If Ferro Lad came back, after his dramatic sacrifice, I'd be damn annoyed (and, in fact, I hate the 'twin brother' thing for that reason, since it essentially brought him back in a cheap way).

*But,* Lyle didn't have some dramatic death, he didn't die to save the team / world / universe. He just got casually offed, so I don't think his death could be any 'cheaper' than it already was.

In the case of Lyle's death, the revelation that it was all a ruse wouldn't take away a powerful or dramatic plot point in Legion lore, as it would if Ferro Lad were to come back from the grave, IMO. Some death-scenes have serious impact, such as Mentalla's, others, such as Lu's first dupe, are non-events and I wouldn't find it 'cheap' if Lu regained the ability to duplicate or triplicate, particularly if it involved some dramatic personal journey, such as the one Cham took to Durla to regain his shapeshifting abilities.

I agree 'dead' characters should not come back, but (1) it's comics - everyone comes back, unless it's a creator-owned property (and not always then), and (2) and composite timeline would be a new timeline rather than the old; Pre-boot still stands (relatively) intact in its own right regardless of any other version.

I'm puzzled by this notion that Lyle's death was not heroic. He died crushing the device that was controlling Validus and sending him on a rampage against the Legion. Of course Lyle saved the team.

Perhaps he should have reacted quicker or remained invisible to avoid detection. But considering that it was Tharok's brain that was controlling Validus, it's unlikely that either strategy would have worked. After all, the brain could certainly detect that it was being held by someone, seen or not, and directed Validus accordingly.

But heroism aside, Lyle's death holds a deeper meaning for me and, I think, for all of us. The fact that he had been a long-time member from the Legion's earliest days made his demise all the more profound. He wasn't a new character who was "born to die" (Ferro Lad), nor was his death foreshadowed in the Adult Legion (Chemical King). There was every reason to believe that Lyle Norg was in the Legion for the long haul, that he was one of the core characters, and that he, therefore, was safe from permanent change (i.e., death). He was even a former Legion leader, for Pete's sake!

His death was on par with the murder, some six years later, of John Lennon. It just wasn't supposed to happen. Yet it did. It cast our assumptions aside about what life (or the Legion) was all about, and made us consider things in a new way. While the death of a real person is tragic (and the death of a fictional character can be experienced as tragic by fans), it teaches us, I think, not to take life for granted.

I would not wish to take that lesson away from Lyle.

I didn't say not *heroic,* actually. I won't (and couldn't anyway) refute the rest, since it comes from a premise I didn't make.

Obviously his death was heroic, as was Lu's first death, neither slipped on a banyo peel, after all.

Enormous thread derailment, anywho. It's occured to me that creating stuff is harder than tearing down stuff, so I'll drop the idea as it's clearly bugging people enough to want it dead.

Set, just because some people don't like a concept doesn't mean you have to abandon it. Keep the ideas coming.

I do want to go on record as saying that I thought of a lot of this years ago which would have been the basis for the formation of the Legion's Outsiders that Dave created and brought all of the dead Legionnaires back to life (or several never really died at all like Lyle).

I still might take the time to tell the story or a variation of it. I know there are people who hate when "dead" characters return, but I sure don't share those feelings.

Most of the major villains were killed in their first few adventures and brought back (usually under ridiculous circumstances) and think of all of the great stories told using them since. The same goes for several heroes, including Lightning Lad. Heck, several of my favorite characters are "ghosts."

I like my comics with limitless possibilities, which includes escaping death when done intelligently (not Superboy-Prime bangs on the walls of reality). I deal with enough reality and permanent deaths in the real world.

I've resisted the idea of an 'amalgamized' Legion but after seeing more of the Johnsboot pretend original Legion, I think maybe it's not a bad option. DC isn't going to restore the iconic past intact, so let them go for it.

For the record, Set, I don't want you to stop speculating. Nor was it my intention to tear anything down.

One of the advantages AND disadvantages of posting an idea on a message board is that you get feedback both from those who agree with you and those who don't. From my own experience, this is a positive thing: How do you know if an idea truly has merit unless it holds up to scrutiny?

Opposing views are a precious commodity in any discussion. They are how we learn to look at things through another's eyes. They encourage us to question basic assumptions about life -- even our own.

I am keen to know, for example, why you think Lyle's death wasn't dramatic. (I do apologize for changing the term to "heroic"; I wasn't responding just to your post, but to other comments that indicated as much. However, you did say that Lyle "didn't die to save the team." This leads me to wonder what he did die for. )

I really just want to see things from a new angle. Not everyone is up for debate, however; feel free to ignore my posts, if you wish.

As someone who edits on occasion, I completely agree. An idea in your head may look awesome, only to provoke a six-year old to say, 'Uh, you realize that this makes *no* sense, right?'

My apologies for the thin-skinnedness of the previous post. I blame it on global warming!

He died for to establish Validus as a bad@$$ and for shock value, from the way it seemed to me, just as Colossal Boy, in Superboy's Legion, died to Validus merely to make Superboy take the whole 'superhero' thing seriously and recognize that while he was unkillable, all of the kids he was inspiring to play these dangerous games with him were not. (One of the very few things I don't like about that mini. As in the Silver Age, all-too-often, the rest of the Legion existed solely to bounce off of Superboy, making them the 30th century equivalent of Lois and Jimmy, instead of characters in their own right.)

The defining factor for me, and the reason why I would suggest bringing Lyle back, while leaving Andy Nolan dead, is because Lyle proved to be an under-developed character with a lot of literary 'life' left in him. He's been re-cycled and become an interesting and relevant character, interacting with the rest of the team and making his mark, in various boots afterwards.

Ferro Lad, on the other hand, seemed born to die, and despite the twin brother thing (which felt 'cheap' to me), never seemed to 'stick' as a character after his death. As with *any* character, Ferro Lad could be brought back and made into a fascinating and complex character, intertwined with the various other Legionnaires. But he hasn't been. So he's not just 'dead' in the comic-book universe, but 'dead' as a literary character as well.

Lyle keeps getting brought back, in various iterations, suggesting that the writers aren't convinced he should 'stay dead,' and I agree with them that he didn't really get a chance to shine before (or during) his death, and yet has proven to be a 'living character' several times since his 'death.'

He died, heroically even, yet Validus remains a massive threat and Tharok remains a massive threat. Hence my assertion above that his sacrifice ultimately couldn't be 'cheapened' much more than it aready was. He didn't blow up the Sun-Eater and save the world. Tharok and Validus go on to threaten his friends many times after his death, making it seem, to me, a pyrrhic 'victory' at best, and if Lyle had indeed faked this death, to free him up to make a different sort of contribution to the team, it would, IMO, make the event *more* meaningful.

But, as I've said, massive derailment. I'd *much* rather hear your own ideas as to ways to fit in the best parts of various iterations, while sweeping aside the bits that might not play so well with the other boots (Garth-as-Proty, Phantom Carggite, Sneckie, Jarth).

Even the 'Threeboot' has aspects I've enjoyed and wouldn't mind seeing adopted for an 'All-Star Legion' (Dream Girl as a former cop, for instance, was very fun, and I'm a little disappointed by Kitson's choice to abandon some of his own ideas so quickly, such as Lyle's alien arm or Dream Boy's role on the team. As frustrating as the things he *did* add that I didn't like, I'm equally frustrated by the things he added that I *did* like, only to have him leave fallow while throwing dozens of other Wanderers and Terror Firmites at us like some sort of bizarre stalling tactic. 'I'll start the story in a minute, here's a hundred new flying dudes you'll never see developed who may vaguely resemble characters you want to see! Look! It's Mekt/Mysa/Tenzil! Point and stare and please fail to notice that the story hasn't gone anywhere and the core characters remain undeveloped!').

I was overly sensitive to criticism, and hoping for more of a free-for-all of ideas involving other Legionnaires, not so much an Invisible Kid-centric discussion. Certainly, if other character updates appear and generate this level of discussion, it will be a hopping topic!

Part of my choosing Lyle was actually because I thought tweaking his death would be least controversial, his being 'ressurected' by multiple creative teams anyway! Brilliant plan, obviously.

Plus Jacques. He never worked for me, but I didn't want to just 'write him out,' so much as work him in and then move him on to the future political career in a more graceful way.

Plus Lyle was easy, I'll admit that. The Espionage Squad thing was perfect for this. Of all the deceased Legionnaires, his death turning out to be part of a long-ranging plan made the most sense. Far more than the whole lightning rod ressurection of Garth did, anyway!

I was in the middle of posting a fairly lengthy reply when an ad popped up, completely obliterating my post! ARRRGH! That company has assured that I will never buy its products.

Anyway ... I applaud your efforts to combine boots and the creativity you used in constructing the Lyle scenario. But I don't think it's within my ability to match your efforts. Rather than having my cake and eating to, too, I'll just admire different flavors of cakes as they are.

Always remember, kids: if you have a long message board post, blog post, or blog comment to make, compose it in a word processor and copy-and-paste it over when it's ready. The internet doesn't like to wait.

Thing is, I'm never quite sure how long my posts will be. I usually just start with a comment or two, then that leads to a comment or two, then another thought that needs to be expanded upon, then ...

This was an anomalous situation, as the infernal ad was not a typical pop-up. It was a timed ad from software already installed on my computer. (And, unlike most such ads, there was no "close" option to simply terminate it! Another reason this company has lost my goodwill.)

Looks like I've derailed the topic again! (Sorry, Set.) Can we get back to Legion cake?

[homer]...mmmm....cake...[/homer]

I totally like your solution to the Invisible Kid's backgrounds, and I think it should be implemented in the case of resolving the reboots continuity issues, if resolving is going to be pursued.

I suggest, though, that any continuity 'fixes' for characters like Karate Kid, Princess Projectra, and Ferro (to name three) would be somewhat more difficult.

Have a go!