Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Unfortunately, it is not. I think it proves the old saying, "You can't go home again." I'm racking my brain trying to remember anything concrete about it, but other than Mantis' now-adolescent son being really annoying, I'm drawing a blank.

Sorry for the delay in responding guys—I’ve just been so busy lately on a variety of different things (some fun, some stressful, some just plain tedious).

I’m absolutely just loving the commentary on the Celestial Madonna stories, Lardy. As I’ve said, this is a contender for my favorite storyline / era in Avengers history, and the Celestial Madonna story itself is the #1 reason why. While I also chimed in about Englehart’s awesome usage of Wanda, I have to clarify that for me, my absolute favorite character of the era, and the one I most associate with Steve, is Mantis herself. I just fucking love her!

Mantis is so dynamic from start to finish. She’s at times awesome and heroic, and then at other times she’s conniving and hurtful to the rest of the team. She’s both grandiose and epic and then yet down to Earth moreso than any other Avenger. The complexity of her origin and storylines, plus the complexity of her relationship with the Swordsman and the Vision…hell, not to mention the complexity of her relationship with her father, just adds up to one of the most interesting and exciting characters in Avengers history. It also helps, IMO, that we never got 25 additional Mantis stories after this. This was a magical time and the magic can’t be recaptured: THIS is the Mantis story, and all others hereafter would pale in comparison.

(Which transitions to your question on the mini, as I wholeheartedly agree with Fanfie: it was sub-par at best with a pretty run of the mill plot, and it never came close to capturing any of the old Englehart magic. And yes, her son was extremely annoying and I wish I’d never seen him, as I’ve always imagined him being a space-Christ like figure).

Jumping back a minute to some of the specifics, I also love the Captain Marvel crossover, which felt truly epic in the extreme. During the 70’s, it always felt that whenever the paths of Captain Marvel and the Avengers crossed, something awesomely grandiose was about to happen.

I’ve always felt the “Magneto is Pietro and Wanda’s father” twist was one of sheer brillaince because it seemed to connect so many dots and turn “coincidences” into a real, coherent storyline. That being said, I kind of liked the reintroduction of the Whizzer and Miss America into the Avengers universe for a brief period of time. They were never my favorite characters, but I didn’t mind them, including when the Whizzer has a string of apperances later.

All that being said, I agree with Lardy: you can’t argue that being Magneto’s kids doomed both characters. Like little children who had overly restrictive parents who would not even let them utter the word sex who then grow up to become porno-addicted perverts, the writers of today (*cough* Bendis *cough*) just can’t help themselves by over-indulging in parts of MU lore that have benefitted over decades by a less-is-more approach.

The commentary on the well-coordinated workings between Avengers and Cap is spot-on and appreciated. The MU felt like such a tight unit still in these days, taking that feeling that Stan worked so hard to create and expanding it to a very large scale. Steve was a master at that, by taking the goings on in Cap and having the other Avengers react to it, especially with the much-missed thought balloons.

The Avengers issue of the FF crossover is pretty terrific, but the FF issue is kind of lackluster other than the awesome cover. I really like Agatha Harkness coming on to the Avenger’s cast, and I like the choise of Wanda and Pietro not reconciling. Just like Mantis had subplots beyond her romantic relationships, Wanda gets the same. Thus, we have both women facing all sorts of challenges other than being just a plain old girlfriend. It makes for a more rewarding read to see them both struggle with so many different problems.

Something else else also has to be said about how fun it is to read the Avengers issues of 1974 and 1975 in such a fashion, with three issues, then a Giant Sized, then three more, then another Giant-Sized, then repeat. It makes for this epic sensiblity to what was going on. And clearly, this wasn’t all that much by design, as the rest of the Marvel series had problems with it or ignored it completely. But for whatever reason, for the Avengers, it just worked.

The coming introduction of Kang to the Saga, complete with Immortus and Rama Tut, just amp things up in a major way, and the fact that it all goes down in Giant-Sized #2 really underscores it.

I also love how with Wanda training with Agatha, the Swordsman dead, and Cap & T’Challa are no longer on the team, it leaves Mantis with just Iron Man, Thor, Vision and the recently returned Hawkeye to back her up—making it feel like the Avengers are at their lowest ebb, but dammit all, they WILL find the answers they’re seeking. But I’m getting ahead of myself…

PS - you are indeed correct that the first time we see Magneto without a helmet is during the Thomas / Adams storyline. It was part of the surprise that he was actually Magneto, as we'd never seen him like that before. I wonder if Adams or Thomas specifically wanted him drawn like Pietro? I've never read one way or another. I think the boldest thing they did was draw him so handsome! Not many villains--especially at DC--were drawn very handsome even in the late Silver Age.

Seeing that Thomas wrote both the Savage Land/Magneto story in the X-Men and the Whizzer/Miss America origin story for the twins, I have to believe that Roy didn't intend for Magneto to be their father. I doubt he would have written the latter story just as a fake-out. I think the story behind the scenes of Pietro and Wanda's parentage among the various creators involved in shaping it would be an interesting one to read about.

In Englehart's various Masterworks intros, he writes of how he wrote Pietro and how he eventually sent him into all-out villainy in WCA. He saw Pietro as a potential bad guy long before his being Magneto's son was ever revealed. He said he basically picked up from where he left Pietro when he returned to write the character many years later. I'm sure his case was helped when the Magneto revelation happened in the interim, but I think Englehart would have tried to go there regardless.

So you could argue that being Magneto's son didn't make as big a negative impact on Pietro as it did on Wanda. I think writers used that fact to justify all the damage they did to her. And it's inarguable that Bendis did more damage than anyone.

Avengers: Celestial Madonna TPB (collects Avengers 129-135 & Giant Size Avengers 2-4)

Avengers 129

As Cobie stated, this is one of the very best Avengers sagas ever and, likely, the crowning jewel of the Englehart era ("likely", because I still have more to read, including the Serpent Crown!). In any case the story brings the great extended Mantis arc to a spectacular close, and her later subsequent appearances are anti-climactic in comparison.

In 129, we begin immediately following Kang's dramatic appearance at the end of the previous issue, complete with a mysterious celestial event right over Avengers Mansion heralding a momentous event. Kang routs them and captures all but the Swordsman, whom he thinks is too insignificant. Vision, Iron Man and Thor are used to power some robots, and Wanda, Mantis and Agatha Harkness are detained until Kang can figure out which is the Madonna. When he does, he intends to take her as his mate and father a child prophesied to be the "most powerful man on Earth"!

Swordsman's arc around his own feelings of inferiority takes center stage. He's utterly humiliated by being deemed too insignificant to threated Kang, but he gets a chance for redemption when Agatha is able to communicate with him and lead him to Kang's hideout in an Egyptian pyramid. In true Swordsman style, he kind of bumbles his way through the attempted rescue, even getting his quinjet shot down by Egyptian military. I like, though, that he still shows some ingenuity with his experience as thief to actually get in the pyramid, and I enjoyed his referencing Conan and showing a little playfulness. Even then, he lucks his way out of being killed by a vampire and into finding Kang for a potential kill-shot, when....Rama-Tut intervenes!

(continued)

Lardy, Cobie, can't add much at this point other than to agree and to thank you both for revitalizing this thread.

Avengers: Celestial Madonna TPB (continued)

Giant Size Avengers 2

The story picks up in GS 2 with....the return of Hawkeye! Hawkeye is a character I miss every time he's not in the Avengers lineup. Simply put, he's one of my favorite Marvel characters, and he always adds just the right amount of extra wit and tension to the team dynamic that is never equaled or surpassed when he's not present, imo. As awesome as the Mantis saga has been, I still missed Clint, even during what turned out to be a brief hiatus as he appeared with the Defenders during that excellent crossover.

In many ways I thing GS 2 is the best of the three Giant Size issues that mark the beginning, middle and end, respectively, of this great saga. This is helped in no small part by the presence of Mr. Dave Cockrum in the only issue among these that he provides full art from cover beginning to end. (He draws GS 3 but is inked by Joe Giella to mixed results.) Dave is firing on all cylinders here, no more so than on a great 2-page, psychedelic spread where Mantis is revealed as the Madonna! It's this spread, posted on the Cockrum fanpage on Facebook, that demanded that I finally read this trade that had been languishing unread for a decade and subsequently sent me on this Avengers bender full bore! Not many pieces of art can or have done this to me, mind you, so that's saying something! (Didn't hurt that I'd recently rediscovered Dave's fine work on his early X-Men run, either!) In fact there are some elements in the piece, which purports to show the past, present and future, of which I'm not sure why they were included--Dr. Doom and the Grandmaster among them.

But the core of this is that the man could flat-out draw, and he nails the Avengers, Kang, Rama-Tut, Immortus, etc. just as much as he would nail the X-men and make them his own. I'm torn between wishing he'd drawn a lot more Avengers and knowing that if he did so, we wouldn't have gotten his classic X-Men run. I particularly enjoyed his Hawkeye, Rama-Tut, Mantis and Swordsman. I also would have liked to have seen more of his Thor--a very strong memorable interpretation.

Rightfully, Swordsman gets a big role here in his final story. He brings Rama-Tut back to Avengers Mansion to team up with Hawkeye and somehow free the other Avengers. It's a great moment to see the outmatched duo take on the Vision-powered macrobot, defeating it and freeing the Vision in the process. Rama provides intel to help them and then they move on to defeat and rescue the Iron Man- and Thor-powered macrobots.

Intermittently, we get one of my favorite elements of the issue: the backstory on how Kang became Rama-Tut a second time and how Rama came to oppose his past self and his plans for the Celestial Madonna. This Rama-Tut, post-Kang, is a very interesting and sympathetic character. And the time Englehart devotes to incorporating origins/backstories into his plots is quickly becoming one of my favorite attributes of his. It's something we'll be treated to a lot more before this saga is done.

Finally, it all explodes into a final battle with Kang as Rama reveals himself and is enraged to see his future self renounce conquest. Their confrontation ignites the 2-page spread I mention and the paradox causes Mantis to be revealed as the Madonna. His defeat imminent, Kang turns on Mantis with his blaster.....and the Swordsman leaps in between, sealing his doom.

It's a big, classic heroic moment, where a hero gives his life to save the woman he loves...something he sees coming in the montage a few pages earlier but does anyway. Even so, the Swordsman dies expressing that he's been a failure as an Avenger.

It's interesting to think about why Englehart made this choice. I think the obvious reason was to drive into Mantis her sorrow over how she treated him. I also think Englehart thought that giving us the big romantic moment we might have expected may have undermined everything he'd done with these characters. Sword really wasn't terribly cut out to be a great hero or even a great spouse; he still had a ways to go. He had the makings and did something selfless in the end, but he hadn't reached the part of the journey where he could recognize and accept that. I think it's another brave decision for Englehart (just as the lack of reconciliation between Wanda and Pietro was) and makes the ending all the more tragic.

One caveat I have with the Swordsman's appearances, though, is his never appearing out of uniform or even unmasked during his whole run. I've noticed this is rare for any Avenger during the era I've been reading (with only a few exceptions), but Sword never even appeared out of costume when he was wheelchair bound after recovering from his wounds during the Avengers/Defenders war. It just defies logic! Oh well.... :rolleyes:

Still, a great, great story and one that stands up really well over the intervening--gasp--forty years!

Avengers: Celestial Madonna TPB (continued)

Avengers 130-132 & Giant Size Avengers 3

Issue 130 is almost a intermission in the saga as the first few pages are spent laying the Swordsman to rest and the rest are mostly a throwaway battle with the Titanic Three (Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo and Radioactive Man) and forgettable new baddie the Slasher. But the funeral is one of the better-done funeral scenes I've seen, highlighted by Mantis's penitence and a moving speech by Thor. It's important that he's laid to rest in the temple in Vietnam where Mantis was supposedly trained by the priests. It will be significant and revisited. While there, Mantis attempts to verify her memories of growing up on the streets, but they only prove to be false.

In issue 131 Kang returns, out for revenge, this time teaming up with a villain who'd only appeared once previously, Immortus. This character's inclusion, building soon to a significant revelation, would be a genius stroke on Englehart's part. Kang uses Immortus's technology to bring certain deceased or undead persons out of the time stream to form his Legion of the Unliving, a battle that would continue thru GS 3. Among this Legion, are the particularly interesting choices of Wonder Man and the original Human Torch---one's brain pattern is the basis for the Vision's personality and the other would have a connection to the Vision that will be revealed at long last.
Kang turns on Immortus and imprisons him and Rama-Tut while he transports the Avengers from Vietnam to Immortus's limbo to do battle with this Legion.

But before he does, we have a brief visit from Cap in one of those great continuity bits Cobie mentions. Cap is in his brief time under the guise of Nomad and visits with the Avengers in the midst of his own battle with the Serpent Squad. It's a brief stay, so cap's already gone before the battle in Limbo is engaged. Also, before departing, Mantis sees a glowing green apparition of her dead Swordsman, and we see a mysterious, sandal-wearing hooded dude spying on them.

In 132, the battle is joined between Unliving Legion and the separated Avengers. Some fare better than others, as Iron Man is KILLED by the Human Torch and the Vision is left in a bad way after a battle with a character called the Ghost!

I'll take a moment here to praise Sal Buscema and Joe Staton who are the regular art team on the monthly Avengers issues.They do a really outstanding job on all their stories, which can easily be overshadowed by the various climaxes that occur in the GS's, but their art is riveting and very much up to the task. One flaw in the regular versus GS format is that they didn't get to draw many of the biggest moments of the saga. But their contribution is every bit as important, and they do a particularly awesome job with the battle this issue and the sweeping majesty of the backstory to come in the post-GS 2 issue 133. Classic, beautiful stuff!

Finally, GS 2 wraps up the second movement in the symphony that will become known as the celestial Madonna Saga. Again, this GS picks up right where the previous regular issue left off, as the Avengers continue to battle the Unliving Legion. Mantis has a particularly great scene where she takes on and takes DOWN Midnight, a former Shang-Chi villain. Then Thor discovers Iron Man's deceased body and goes into berserker revenge mode! I especially like how he's ready to take down Kang, and Kang has to call in Wonder Man before he finishes the job!meanwhile, Hawkeye takes on the original Baron Zemo and falls to his Adhesive X but ends up pulling off a nifty teeth-and-legs trick shot to free Immortus and Rama.

Before it's all over, we learn that the Vision is actually built from the original Human Torch's body (the Torch discovered this while helping the Vision recover from his dire injuries suffered the previous issue), and Immortus is actually the ultimate identity of Kang, eventually having progressed from his second Rama-Tut phase to get there! Both are two great twists that have become such key parts of Avengers lore.

Luckily, Immortus has the power to reverse anything that transpires in Limbo, so he undoes Iron Man's death and fully restores the Vision from his injuries. Additionally, he provides the means for the Vision and Mantis to get all the answers to their pasts, fueling the final movement of the trilogy within the saga!

As I mentioned before, Dave Cockrum returned to do the art on GS 3, but he's assisted by Joe Giella this time. The result is that many pages have the full-on Cockrum affect, while others don't look like he had anything to do with them at all or like somewhere in between. Overall, it's a nice-looking issue, but I wish that Cockrum could have somehow done the full art like he did on GS 2. Better some Cockrum than know, I suppose, especially seeing what we end up getting on GS 4 with none.....

Overall, a great second act, but like many second acts, it's exceeded by the first and third. Unless you're Empire Strikes back or Godfather II, it's almost inevitable. But it's certainly action-packed and well worth reading.

Your reviews are more thrilling than most modern comics!

I totally forgot about Thor's eulogy which is one of my favorite Thor moments of all time! (And Thor is one of my top 5 favorite superheroes!). Englehart did Thor in the Avengers so well!

Speaking of, I actually was tempted to buy Original Sin #1.

I like Lenil Yu's art, though this is not his best and I'm sure he's a bit messy for most people.

I flipped through it at the comic store, The story seems to be a total rip off of Identity Crisis, however not nearly as offensive and it has a couple plot twists that I thought were interesting.




I won't go into it much because I didn't read it but:


this story really has it all!

I would've picked it up actually, I am a sucker, but also there is something farsical and amusing about this to me ...

BUT ... I would have had to pick up Original Sin 0. which looked like ass trash and had a nonsensical story from what I saw ... I think they are trying to be mysterious, it is a mystery as they are claiming, but also could be a "i don't know where this is going" story.

I'll actually probably get this in the trade. he he I feel so evil!

Also, I found the tag line "The Wages of Sin is Death" pretty funny because the wages of anything really is death.

I was bummed to see this is a mega cross over event that will mar one of the comics I am really enjoying ... Mighty Avengers.

bleh! booty. It will still probably be good though.

This is Marvel Civil War + Identity Crisis + House of M realness.

and space.

They just got to get the villains to take over and it will be Dark Reign Siege something or other.

Lardy, once again I agree with everything in your reviews, and I concur with Cobie, they're more entertaining than most modern comics. And I thought I'd contribute a bit of behind-the-scenes trivia on GSA #2: Cockrum, who was new to the Marvel method, was told to redraw huge chunks of it, with the result that a lot the inking was by the uncredited Neal Adams and Dick Giordano and their assistants at Continuity Studios. It's amazing how smooth and awesome the issue is even though the making of it was so fraught.

Cobie, thanks for mentioning the way Englehart wrote Thor. But my favorite Englehart Thor moments are actually still to come, particularly in the Serpent Crown Saga. More trivia: the Englehart-written Thor Annual #5 was actually supposed to be the first issue of an oversized Thor quarterly that got scrapped at the last minute; Englehart would have been the regular writer on it; what a shame it got scrapped.

Peebs, I have to ask you to please post your Original Sin reviews somewhere else from now on, like maybe the Random Review thread.

You have good taste, young apprentice.



Pretty amazing! I never would have thought it was anything but 100% Cockrum.

BTW, I love that you two agree with me so much, but I would be very interested particularly in hearing any thoughts you have on the Swordsman.

Avengers: Celestial Madonna TPB (conclusion)

Avengers 133-135 & Giant Size Avengers 4

And so we reach the grand finale of the Celestial Madonna Saga, the final movement, if you will, in a great symphony. I'll preface this review with my judgment that this last third is in fact my favorite, even though GS 4 is my least favorite of the 3 extra-sized installments. I'll try to do justice to the majesty of this seminal conclusion of the mega-story. My hope is that anyone who hasn't read it, will be moved to do so if they happen to read and enjoy this review. Anyone who HAS read it, I hope will comment and even re-read it again in the near future and share as I did.

Issues 133-135 focus on two lost souls with a nagging emptiness within them finally learning of their heritages. Mantis learns of the long, complicated history that lead her to this pivotal moment in her and the universe's existence, and Vision learns the simpler tale of how the hero who was once the Human Torch ended up having his body repurposed for the, imo, greater hero that the Vision would become. All this, courtesy of Immortus and a pair of powerful talking (and decidedly mouthy!) scepters that are capable of letting each witness pivotal, relevant points of the past. The remaining Avengers accompany Mantis on her journey while the Vision experiences his alone.

Meanwhile, a number of subplots develop elsewhere: 1) The Scarlet Witch and Agatha Harkness sequester themselves in a room in Avengers Mansion to complete Wanda's training. But after awhile, it's clear that something is going awry with them. 2) the mysterious green apparition of the Swordsman meets up with the hooded man, the latter of whom turns out to be none other than Mantis's apparent father, Libra. 3) Moondragon answers a summons meant for Mar-Vell sent by the Avengers back in Vietnam when they sought answers about Mantis. All of these plotlines would gestate in these issues and finally pay off in GS 4, beautifully.

I can't express enough how much I loved the two histories we are treated to in these issues! Such great and epic moments told beautifully by Englehart, Buscema and Staton (and George Tuska to a lesser extent, filling in on 135). I love that both are told slowly and with care over three issues with nary a "right now" battle to be seen to pad the rest of the content of the issues. Englehart had a huge story to tell, and I'm glad it was unrushed and uncut because I loved EVERY SECOND I read of it!

It's hard not to prefer the Mantis history because it's so well thought out, complex and memorable. But the Vision's is pretty damn enthralling as well! In the latter I particularly enjoyed discovering there was a transitional period where the Torch's mind still controlled his transformed body until Ultron got the upper hand, erased the Torch's personality and then used Wonder Man's brain patterns to form the new personality.

Honestly, comics just don't take the time anymore to tell prolonged backstories. Instead, the pendulum has swung too far the other way with little or no narration yielding brisker, less satisfying reads. More and more, I'm finding older comics the best kind of comfort food in that they really feel they are telling me a STORY! I accept that maybe narration may have been a little excessive back then, in effect often describing exactly what the artist is depicting. But there's a such thing as an author's voice, too, and it seems we get very little of that these days. We simply don't GET comics reading experiences like this these days, and that's a damn shame!

All this leads back to the finale in Giant Size Avengers 4, where the Vision ends up in the Dark Dimension--where it turns out Wanda and Agatha ended up because the dread Dormammmu intervened while they were training--at the conclusion of his 'Vision quest'. Likely no coincidence as his magic scepter probably knew he should be there. Elsewhere, Mantis and the other Avengers are sent back to Vietnam to meet up with the Swordsman apparition, Libra and Moondragon for Mantis to have the backstory she just learn tied together and discover her destiny as the Celestial Madonna.

It all plays out beautifully with the Vision having to confront an enthralled Wanda in the Dark Dimension and Kang returning for one last stab at taking Mantis for his mate. In the first scenario, Dormammu bites off more than he can chew as the shock of taking the Vision down, snaps wanda out of Dormammu's control, and she takes the dread one down HARD! In the second Kang is outwitted in comical style, being duped into kidnapping a Mantis stand-in, and Mantis learns of the reasons behind her being chosen over Moondragon, who was the other lady trained to potentially fill the role.

In the end the Vision and Wanda affirm their love and agree to marry. Similarly, Mantis agrees to join the Cotati survivor (which comprises the bulk of the history she's learned) in the guise of her fallen Swordsman. She has now accepted her destiny. In an all-time classic ending, Immortus performs a double wedding for the 2 couples. Mantis is finally honored with Avengers membership just before she and her mate transform into energy and are off to face an unknown cosmic destiny.

Awesome ending to a superhero saga for the ages! Such terrific pay-off to a tale that was completely riveting from start to finish. And besides being a masterpiece on Englehart's part, let's not forget the brave decision he made to end the story of his own personal addition to Avengers lore, effectively writing her out of his own book in service to the greater story. He didn't kill her, but he did in effect 'kill his darling' by giving her story an epic ending and leaving her untouched for over a decade. I know that if I already miss her fiercely after loving everything about her during this era, then Englehart must have missed her something fierce as his creator! Bravo to him, I say!

So...how is GS4, then, not my favorite with so much going for it? Two words: Don Heck. Not trying to bash the guy, because he was a talented artist, but Don really turned in a forgettable effort here. I know that this is apparently because he received the assignment on an incredibly tight deadline, but the fact remains that this was the worst-illustrated installment of the saga by a mile. Even the Tuska-drawn 135 is clearly superior to this one. basically, it's a shame that with all the beautiful work of Sal, Joe and Dave prior to the conclusion, it's a shame that a plan wasn't in place to have the epic conclusion look at least as good as all the installments leading up to it. Don't get me wrong, it's far from the worst-looking issue of a comic ever drawn, but it's a real disappointment in the context of the rest of the saga and with the importance of its content.

Despite that misgiving, I can do nothing less than give the whole Celestial Madonna saga my highest recommendation. Having read it just before and then again during my massive Avengers read, I can say I loved it enough to read it twice in less than two months. And there ain't many funny books out there that would merit such a quick read/re-read turnaround for this critical and jaded comic book guy. If you've never read it, do yourself a favor and pick it up some time in your lifetime. If possible, read Mantis's whole story from 114 all the way through Giant Size 4 for maximum effect. If you've ever loved superhero teams, the Avengers or just great stories, I know you'll enjoy this one.

.....and if you HAVE read it before, than by fuck, read it AGAIN--and soon!!!

Glad to share it, and as I'm prone to do, I'll probably give you way too much information.

First, I’ll explain my history with the Swordsman, and that helps inform my opinion of him. As a kid, I read the Silver Age Avengers stories probably more than any other besides Spider-Man, so I knew the Swordsman as the Silver Age villain he was, particularly teaming up with Power Man and the Enchantress, then later his Gene Colon drawn story and then later still being part of the Lethal Legion. I didn’t care much about him other than thinking he looked pretty cool because he had a sword and an awesome moustache. I usually forgot that he was even a member until Avengers #100 had him show up on panel to help out, less “the Avengers forget that he too was once a member, albeit briefly” (or whatever, I’m sure I misquoted him but it was something like that). Right around the same time I was reading and rereading the Silver Age Avengers ad nausem, I was also totally enthralled with my then favorite modern day comic on the stands, which was of course, the Avengers by Bob Harras and Steve Epting. It was at the time the single most exciting comic book I lived for and I’ve spoken at length about how I wrote Bob Harras a letter hand-written in pencil when I was 11 about how I convinced my Dad to read the Kree arc because he brought back Hank Pym as Giant-Man. Well, anyway, the Swordsman—though not the one we know—is an important part of that entire run, and that suddenly got me really interested in the character. Especially because there were references to an even larger history where he joined and made the ultimate sacrifice.

So the Swordsman was always an enigma to me, and always interesting. When we finally hunted down all the Englehart issues, I was incredibly curious about the character and couldn’t wait to dive in. As usually happened, I read them all out of order, and I actually started with Giant-Sized Avengers #2, his final appearance and death. This also, IMO, is his single best appearance of the entire run, with him acting incredibly heroic and having all kinds of great moments, so that made me instantly like him. Eventually I finally read them all the way through and was somewhat surprised by his relatively “rough” stint with the Avengers: he was basically the quintessential loser who couldn’t get anything right, constantly was doubting himself and was kind of treated like shit by Mantis. Reading them as I did, this was all kind of after the fact, so I already had determined I liked the Swordsman, and knowing his ultimate end, I could see how Steve was setting it all up to head in that direction, which made the ending more powerful. But while the story was strong, the character himself may have been unique but didn’t have a TON of depth and layers to him.

The Swordsman also suffers a bit by being overshadowed by other more interesting characters, first and foremost Mantis. In a way, he’s kind of the reverse of what we saw a lot of in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s where girlfriends and wives are killed or attacked to make the male protagonist go through something more interesting. Here, he ultimately dies which sets up an even stronger and fascinating arc for Mantis to go through. That’s not to compare this wonderful story to the other shit published by the big 2 during those decades, but the Swordsman’s death clearly sets up the larger storyline. Mantis is just super-dynamic, and you also get the Vision, Wanda and Hawkeye being incredibly interesting as well, with Thor and Iron Man basically providing the heart & spine of the team during the whole thing.

From a plot perspective, and from the impact he makes in regards to Mantis, he’s a fantastic character. But by himself, he’s interesting and unique but isn’t exactly the #1 thing I think about when I rave about the Celestial Madonna Saga. Clearly, without the larger Avenger story and characters, his character wouldn’t be all that exciting, so its not like he could headline his own series or work within the confines of another series that didn’t involve a flagship superhero team and iconic mythology.

Hope that makes some bit of sense. I don’t really have anything negative to say about the Swordsman or how Steve wrote him, but he’s clearly there for different reasons than everyone else. His death is compelling and heroic but all roads were leading there from day one.

One thing I never thought of before was you mentioning the choice Steve makes to not let him realize just how much he’s overcome his own self-doubt and pathos by being so heroic in his death. You’re absolutely right, and it’s a fantastic choice that doesn’t provide an easy or cliché final moment but rather adds an element of tragedy and therefore some additional weight to the entire issue.

PS – Giant-Sized Avengers #2 is my favorite issue of the entire run, and hell, possibly a contender for the entire franchise history.

That's certainly a fair assessment of the Swordsman's purpose as a character, at least as far as his use by Englehart. Your comparison to various doomed ladies in the lives of leading men (the obvious unspoken example being Gwen Stacy, but there have been so many others in comics, not to mention in TV, movies, novels, etc.) is especially astute. Males tended (and still do, overall) to dominate being the lead characters in any kind of adventure story and often their ladies are killed off or otherwise experience tragedies to enhance the pathos and drama of the lead character's journey. Here, despite all initial appearances with him being inducted to the Avenger and her looking like the hanger-on, Mantis is the lead of this duo, and it is the Swordsman who is there to enhance her story to lend it some tragedy. It is he who is shown to be the weaker of the pair and the one in need of rescue, physically and emotionally.

But Steve doesn't completely transplant the stereotype onto Sword. He is allowed to die heroically, rather than as a simple victim. This respects his history, his capabilities and his worthiness in the end of being an Avenger. But it is still Mantis who casts a shadow over Sword. She is the one whose story really matters and defines the larger epic of the Celestial Madonna. He is a part of her larger story, not her a part of his. In hindsight I love how Steve reversed expectations by making it appear to be the other way around when she is first introduced.

I'd say that Steve and his storyline were ahead of their time in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if it inspired Claremont and Byrne when they crafted the Dark Phoenix story. I'm not implying that the Celestial Madonna and Dark Phoenix sagas are all that similar because they're not. But certainly both portrayed powerful women in prominent, eye-opening ways that were pretty much unprecedented in comics and, to an extent, fiction in general.

(This reminds me randomly of how Mantis, iirc, was supposedly considered as one of the possibilities for the fifth member of X-Factor before it was decided to bring back Jean.... )

Really?!??? That' s just.... bizarre. Mantis and the four original X-males? Hard to imagine her fitting in with them.

I think you certainly did, and then some. Thank you so much for your detailed and impassioned praise for one of my favorite stories, Lardy.



I echo the sentiment.



Very well said.

Regarding the Swordsman, my experience was similar to Cobie's. Even though he was in grade school/junior high and I was in college, we both started reading Avengers in real time at about the same time. So we had this alternate-reality Swordsman, and were intrigued by what happened to his late predecessor in the core reality. I have to say, I wasn't impressed at first with the original Swordsman, and found him hard to take seriously for the same reason Valkyrie couldn't take him seriously as an opponent during the Avengers/Defenders War: that ridiculous facial hair (the alternate-reality Swordsman was clean-shaven.) I think Englehart did a masterful job at gradually making me care about this character who came across at first like a laughable loser, to the point where I shed a tear for him at his noble sacrifice in GSA #2. The original Swordsman was imperfect, insecure, and fallible -- in short, a very human character underneath the cartoonish surface, and, like Mantis, he got a full character arc, one that ended in tragedy rather than transcendence, but no less memorable for it. It all adds up to the very stuff that great stories are made of.

Lastly, I want to thank Lardy for making the point that Englehart's work may have inspired Claremont's X-Men. Claremont gets all the credit for introducing strong female superheroes, but Englehart did it first. Somewhere, in an alternate universe, we got an extended Englehart/Perez Avengers run rather than just seven issues, and it rivaled Claremont & Byrne's X-Men in both popularity and artistic achievement.

But at least in this universe, we have those seven Englehart/Perez issues, and I'm really excited about discussing them in the near future.

I think you and Cobie have the Swordsman's character and the approach to him absolutely NAILED between the two of you. I thank you both for your invaluable input!

(Color me curious about the Harras Swordsman after what the two of you said! I sure hope Marvel does an Omnibus or some other large collection of the run some day because after all the praise you guys give the era, I'm ready to buy it! )



Oddly enough, the comparison didn't occur to me until I was writing that last review. I surprised myself thinking of that and was even more surprised by how obvious the influence seems in hindsight!



Yep, very soon......

I honestly don't know how seriously the idea was considered. IIRC, Mantis was the central figure in one of the various teasers of the mystery of the female member leading up to the reveal. Dazzler was another and apparently the one given most consideration (to the point where her series finale teased the idea) before Jean was ultimately selected.

I think there were five teased in all....Jean, Mantis, Dazzler, possibly Madelyn Pryor and I can't remember who else. Assuming I'm remembering correctly.

Swordsman appeared a few years back in Dead Avengers (alongside Dr. Druid, the Vision, Deathcry, Captain Mar-Vell and the Rita DeMara Yellowjacket), and came across surprisingly well, being one of the 'dead Avengers' to win the day.

From what I've heard (was it earlier in this discussion?), Sword was left alive at the end of the thing. I don't know if that's true or not. Did you read it, Set, and if so, do you remember if that's the case?

Lardy, I'm delighted that Cobie and I have piqued your interest on the Harras Avengers. I, too, hope that it's collected someday. Marvel recently collected a sizable chunk of Roger Stern's Avengers run in two big paperback volumes, so we can keep hoping.

I do have to warn you, however, that even though Swordsman II has some great scenes early on, he fades into the background after that, never really to re-emerge until he and Magdalene exit this dimension during the Busiek Avengers. I'm glad they at least exited with dignity, I think they both had and still have great potential. In fact, a couple years ago, I came up with possible origins for both Swordsman II and Magdalene. I think I'll post them in this thread sometime.

I myself haven't read Dead Avengers. I love some of the characters involved, but Fred Van Lente is one of those writers who makes me avoid a book.