Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

In regards to taking a break, I'm up for either way. I don't mind continuing at all.

For some reason I've hit a sudden wave of feeling "meh" about a lot of comics I'm collecting lately, so it's been nice to reread some older stuff. That tells me I need to trim my list down again.

For me personally, my next big reread project might be Fantastic Four #1-101. Possibly followed up by the Byrne run. Then maybe I'll give Walt Simonson's run a real chance for those of you who told me years ago to do so...

Did anyone else look at that charred outline and wonder "is that really the creature?"

I'm actually in favor of taking a break after #144, because I've always felt that #145-167 are a bit of a slog, and they might be more enjoyable if we come into them fresh.

Lardy, I'm overjoyed that you're going to read The Celestial Madonna Saga for the first time. Could you please post a review of it in the All-Avengers Thread?

Cobie, I'm glad your considering giving Walt Simonson's FF a real chance. It's my personal second favorite FF run after Lee & Kirby's.

My own next re-read will definitely be the first 26 issues of Peter David's Aquaman.

I was thinking after 150, personally. It seems like such a natural cut-off. So....?

And I'll likely have a few words about the Celestial Madonna story to share, Le Fique!

If we do take a break, I actually like #144 better. I'd rather read Cockrum's whole run at once.

And yeah, it'll be awesome to see your thoughts on Celestial Madonna!

I can see your point of view. To me, it lessens the impact of the story somewhat, especially as the idea of a foreign entity being involved was introduced so late in the narrative, and it was underexplored once it was. It seems to support my thought that the DPS should have been at least a bit longer than it actually was. Basically, what exactly happened to Jean to get her this way could have been clarified so that we could then understand why Jean had to sacrifice her life.

I guess prior to 135-137, the only evidence that Phoenix was something other than Jean was her general "other"-ness immediately after she arose from Jamaica Bay and (this is more of a stretch) the references to her actually dying in the shuttle craft and being reborn as something else. Most of the "hard" evidence (from, say, Chuck and Moira) attributed the change to her latent talents reaching their fullest potential, so I'd say the needle mostly pointed to Phoenix being Jean, and only Jean, until the "Phoenix entity" references came up during the DPS in such a low-key way as to imply the storytelling had always pointed toward that explanation.

I should point out that John Byrne pointed this disparity out in some of his comments in the roundtable that accompanied Phoenix: The Untold Story and how he wondered where the "entity" bits came from and how that explanation pretty much acquitted her of all guilt. Claremont didn't really give an answer to that at all and seemed to side-step it. (Recall that this roundtable was printed 2 years or more before jean was actually brought back.)

You definitely make a strong case. I'd add if there was no entity at all, it would have made for a more tragic and possibly stronger story.

Byrne's comments surprise me as they show he was definitely willing to go there. Claremont , however, wasn't prepared to commit to the total damnation of Jean. That's ironic considering Claremont pushed for Jean to stay dead and Byrne was part of her resurrection.

As is, I think it's still a high point in superhero comics. It's amazing how much we've gone backwards since then-- as if we're in the Dark Ages where so much knowledge has been lost, yet a rennassiance could be right around the corner.

Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Lardy! It'll be so nice to have the All-Avengers thread discussing a classic instead of the bore-fest that is the current Avengers.

Uncanny X-Men #141-144

Although comics would eventually get unpleasantly dark and dreary over the decade and a half which followed "Days of Future Past", that story still holds up beautifully. There's just so much to love: the starkly bleak flash-forwards contrasted with the ominous yet still hopeful present day, the introduction of Mystique and Destiny, the beginning of the odd-couple partnership of the effete Pyro and the thuggish Blob, and, most of all, Rachel, a favorite of mine since I was introduced to her in the early 90s during Alan Davis' triumphant writer/artist run on Excalibur.

I'm not quite as enamored of 143 as Cobie is, because as much as I love Kitty and as awesome as she comes off here, this has always felt to me more like a vignette stretched out to a full issue. IIRC, the story came about mainly because Byrne had based Kitty's appearance on what he imagined Sigourney Weaver to have looked like at 14, and Claremont being the "Alien" fan that he is, well...

So ends the glorious Claremont/Byrne X-Men era. I personally don't think either of them came close to equaling their accomplishments together on their own. I particularly find Byrne's writer/artist work to be extremely overrated, while Claremont had his ups and downs until he became a self-parody somewhere around 1987-88.

144 gets the post-Byrne era off to a very promising start, with Scott coming off great in his battle against D'yspare and the introduction of the salty, sassy, sexy Lee Forrester, a character I'd much rather Scott have stayed with than Madeline Pryor (or Jean Grey, for that matter.) While Claremont's superheroines would become more problematic in the years to come, he never lost his ability to write wonderful non-superpowered women like Lee. I think Brent Anderson's art is excellent, and wish he'd become the regular artist instead of Dave Cockrum returning for a largely underwhelming second run.



Yeah! Seconded! No offense to Lardy and other Busiek fans, but he really does need to go to trial for his role in resurrecting Jean, and also for the Operation Galactic Storm-was-influenced-by-Immortus retcon.

I love Rachel, and that the transplant in the story was Kitty. I think it was key to the mood of the story.

I kind of gloss over the battle with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. The real exciting part for me is the future mystery.

Plus the fight scenes in the future was so dead on ... they even over shadow the great fight scenes in the present. IMO.

I agree. The deaths of the future Wolverine and Storm are still shocking even today.

Lardy, I wanted to ask a favor. I'm going to start my Peter David Aquaman re-read this weekend. Sometime this week, could you please edit the title of this thread to reflect that? Thanks.

Done!

Note: the editing of your previous thread is only to ensure that subsequent replies would reflect the new title!

Excellent! Thank you, Lardy.

Since I'll only be reading the first 26 issues, I'll probably just do two or three issues a week.

Although there is one of the later issues that I'm very fond of, so I might throw it in as a bonus...

I grabbed the same issues this week from my parents. Plabnn on starting a reread as well. I also have the Time and Tide mini that I started rereading yesterday.

That's great. Welcome aboard. And I'm hoping that even more Legion Worlders will join in, since this is a DC-centric forum (old-school DC, that is, not DCFU.)

Okay, here we go. And, like I said in the post above, I hope that, with Aquaman being a DC character, more people than usual will chime in (and if you don't like this version of Aquaman, that's no reason not to tell us why you don't like it. Of such things are lively discussions made. Just as long as we keep it civil, of course.)

Aquaman #1 (August 1994)

Aquaman has been brooding and having nightmares after reading the Atlantis Chronicles and discovering his true origin, as told in the Time & Tide mini-series, which I'm not re-reading because I personally consider it a fun but inessential read. However, I'm assuming that since Dev's re-reading it, he'll post a review of it.)

Aqualad shows up and tells Aquaman in no uncertain terms to snap out of it. They fight, they make up, they go on a mission to investigate the disappearance of an American nuclear submarine. At the sub's wreckage, they encounter the super-villain Charybdis , who injures Aqualad and leaves him to die and kidnaps Aquaman. To be continued.

First of all, this is the only version of Aquaman I've ever liked. It may even be argued that Peter David's Aquaman is Aquaman-for-People-Who-Don't-Like-Aquaman. Aqualad could be speaking for a lot of readers when he says to Aquaman, "Lighten up, for crying out loud! I am so sick of the brooding and the depressed bit and the whole melancholy ex-king schtick! Like you're the only person on the planet who's ever had problems! It's getting boring!"

PAD's solution? To give us a more proactive and aggressive Aquaman...with long hair and beard. And a harpoon hand which he'll acquire in a subsequent issue. This whole makeover was very much of its time (the early-mid 90s), but even though I hated what had been done to Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern, I had no problem with anything they did to Aquaman.

Of course, it didn't hurt either that PAD's a darn good writer. The dialogue's snappy and witty, the story beats are right on target, the action sequences are vivid, and, in general, everything...excuse the pun...flows. All in all, a very promising start to what should have been a run comparable to PAD's 12-year run on the Hulk, but which was prematurely...another pun coming...sunk.

I don't remember reading the individual issues anymore, but I actually really liked the harpoon hand and the more gruff Aquaman. I agree it was very 90's but I think in this case it worked. I agree that it was probably only good writers that made it work...Morrison used him really well in JLA too!

I remember reading the issue where he got his hook hand and just shaking my head. Very forced I thought. I don't recall if the rest of it seemed that way too. I think that was about it for me on this run, unless I got the issues really, really cheaply at some other point. I'll see if anything jogs my memory.

I'm not sure I was that taken with the art. If it was standard '90s stuff probably not.

Raz, Thoth, thank you both for posting here.

I agree with Raz that it all comes down to the quality of the writing. I have a strong feeling that, 20 years from now, Geoff Johns' take on Aquaman (now THAT one was forced) will actually seem more dated that Peter David's.

I didn't mention the art because, quite simply, I believe it to be merely functional for the most part, although it does improve somewhat when they change inkers a couple of issues later.

Aquaman: Time and Tide #1 - 4

This mini series preceeded Peter Davids Aquaman series and allowed him to set (reset?) a few things before diving into the main series. (see what I did there...I'll try to avoid any more watery type puns. Okay, that's probably not true, but oinly when I think their worth it.)

As Fickles said, this is a fun little mini...but does not really do too much.It recaps some "firsts" for Arthur (or Artoor). His first time being referred to as a hero...meeting the Flash, fighting Trickster and being given the key to a city. That didn't turn out to well.

His true heritage is revealed, ans as this is a follow up to the totally awesome Atlantis Chronicles (which Peter David also wrote) there is a lot of little references and nods to that. Arthurs destiny and all that. His mental stableness based on his past is questioned, at least by Arthur himself.

He remembers his first love (Kako), and her near death experience because of him. It was only years later that he discovered who had brutalized her so badly. There was other things that he did not know about Kao yet...but would eventually find out.

His life being raised by the Dolphins, who were his family. His love for one, and discovery that he was different.

Orm (Ocean Master), his half brother, plays an important role throughout his life...even if Arthur is unaware of it until later. The scene of Ocean Master coming to Atlantis to declare hinself King of the Ocean is great and showcases the attitude of Arthur quite well. He gives Orm that "title" and suggests that he goes about visiting his entire Kingdom. There is more to it than that, but you need to read the entire exchange to appreciate it all. The follow up attack by Ocean Master allows Mera to shine through (sorry Geoff, Peter made her a badass long before you thought you had to.)

Over all, a very fun series. It's a bridge between the Atlantis Chronicles and the monthly. Well worth the read, but not essential...because Peter David is a good enough writer to give you what you need to follow along. It's kinda like watching an episode of Arrested Development in the second season. You can follow along, understand the plot and get the jokes...it's just a tad more rewarding if you have seen the episodes (issues) that have come before, because then you get a few more of the subtle winks and nods that you wouldn't have otherwise.

Sure did. I agree on the fun but inconsequelntial thing for the most part. As seen above.



Nice quick recap. I liked the bit with the two guys at the beginning, although it does point to one little tiny issue I have with Peter David. I can usually tell when he wrote something based on his pop culutre references peppered throughout his books. Not saying that's always a bad thing, as I was reading this as it happened so I get the references without loooking at the page quizically and having to "google" it to figure it out, but I could see them as being a little distracting to someone much younger. Just a thought I've had over the years reading his stuff.



Kinda in the same boat here. HAving not read a lot of his original run, I cannot say if I would like it or not, but his attitude (see JLA in the 80's) kinda annoyed me.Petter David had a differnt take on him, and it was one that worked for me as well.



I like the reveal of the long hair and beard here. Hidden in the opening pages, but shown when Garth finds him. The late developments never bothered me and while they may have been a tad forced and cliched (a ocean hero with a hook hand?), it seemed much more plausable than what they were doing with their other characters at the time.



I did like the yessir bit between Arthur and Garth. Peter David has an uncanny ability to find voices for characters...although quite a few of them tend to be on the sarcastic side...hmmm, write what you know maybe? Having met the man a few times over the years, he does have a wicked sense of humor and is up to verbal pun sparring with the fans...all in good fun. He's also a hell of a nice guy.

I was thinking this was going to be the Aquaman mini where he had the blue 'underwater camo' costume and ended up defeating a magically-empowered Orm with the power of luurve.

(Which may sound like I'm mocking it, but it was actually a kind of cool story, with Orm feeding off of Aquaman's anger, and only being able to be beaten by Orin letting go of it, making his victory less about getting angry and punching stuff until it falls over and more about winning the day through defeating his own demons.)

I really liked the blue costume. More exactly, I really liked that cover with the blue costume. It was also used in the ads. I guess it wasn't terribly popular, and I guess it didn't look to good away from that artist or out of water.

I actually have that mini with me as well, giving it to a friend (Suddenly Seymour from here) as he is a huge Aquaman fan and cannot find his copies.

Maybe a reread is in order before it goes to its new home..