Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Postboot Legion! (LSH 110, L*67)

Actually, I thought that the mute Saturn Girl (like all of her race) was a nice touch. Unfortunately, that was also one of the VERY few things that I liked about the threeboot.

3Boot Phantom Girl existed on both Bgztl and Earth's dimension at the same time when she phased. So when she was fighting robots on Earth, people on Bgztl could see her. Personality-wise, she didn't change much.

In terms of personality, I think 3boot Ultra Boy had the more extensive changes (becoming much more aggressive and dumb-jocky than either Preboot or Postboot version!).

Yeah, I didn't mind her being mute much either. And... um.... I liked Theena!

I'm not saying all the changes were bad; I didn't mind Star Boy for example, or Micro Lad being a default giant who could shrink to human size. If they could have served up likable characters and a good, compelling story then why not?

Great summary! It tells us pretty much everything we need to know about # 65, as do your other comments.

This issue was quite a ride and, even though not much happens other than the Legionnaires' failing efforts to contain the prisoners, it feels like a lot was accomplished. This is because the creators do an outstanding job of utilizing the Legionnaires' powers and developing their personalities. Everyone gets something to do, but it doesn't feel forced or contrived. Every action furthers the story line or tell us something new.

Take, for instance, Gim--the subject of much discussion in this thread. Here he recognizes that the only way to keep the prisoners from escaping is to destroy all the ships--including the Legion's own! This is a military-like tactic: putting the needs of the mission above the needs and even survival of the soldiers. However, I can't help wondering if it's also an early symptom of Gim's death wish--although here he seems willing to take the rest of the Legion and Workforce with him.

I wasn't bothered by Jo and Tinya falling in love at first sight on the battlefield--it was a comical moment amidst all the action and urgency. It reminded me that this book truly was aimed at a young audience. "Over-the-top" moments such as this and others we've discussed probably appeal to such an audience in a way that wouldn't to us older, more experienced readers.

Was Jo truly involved with Spider Girl? I got the impression that she thought they were involved, in a creepy, possessive way, but Jo has done nothing to reciprocate. She doesn't even seem to be on his radar.

As for the power upgrades, both Rokk and Imra demonstrate increased abilities we haven't seen before in this boot. I can buy Rokk creating flying sleds for his teammates--he does seem to be straining--but Imra's ability to put people to sleep comes from left field. So far in this boot she's demonstrated the ability to read people's minds and scan for thoughts. Controlling others' minds is a huge step that hasn't been hinted at before.

But there are lots of great character moments, such as Garth and Ayla renewing their sibling rivalry, Imra thinking the lightning burst came from Garth (wishful thinking?), and Lyle, who is a very proactive, intelligent, and effective combatant. The preboot Invisible Kid was one of my favorite Legionnaires, but I can't deny that this one is a definite upgrade.

The art continues to be a weak spot. I appreciate Lee Moder's efforts to give each Legionnaire a distinctive face, but his figures often seem malnourished or just off. Ron Boyd is probably not the best inker for Moder--Page 1 looks unfinished, and the cover (if it is by the same team) is one of the ugliest covers I've seen on a Legion comic. The washed out colors, meant to convey the brightness of the sun, simply call attention to the unattractiveness of the Legion figures.

But LSH 65 demonstrates how to do an all-out action issue. The suspense never lets up, and several scenes--such as the numerous small panels of prisoners arming their guns--escalate the tension so much, we don't bother to ask what the Workforce is doing there (if an explanation was given, I missed it).

One of the single best issues so far.

Grade: 90.3 (A-)

Thank you I'll have to make sure all my succeeding summaries are like this.



When Sussa kisses Jo in Legionnaires 21, she calls him baby and he responds with "this isn't a good time, honey". Legionnaires 22 will also show that they are definitely at least dating.



It does make sense that she could manipulate mental processes enough to do this, but I agree with you that seem like a bit step. Perhaps it's because the only true combat situations she's been in before were ones where hand-to-hand combat (catching the jewel thief in LSH 0) could solve the day, or where she had her teammates to help her out (chasing terrorists in Legionnaires 0, Tangleweb in LSH 62, Mano in LSH 63/Legionnaires 20).

come to think of it, that is part of what makes this issue so refreshing. We see the Legionnaires up against hundreds of opponents, which really gives each one a chance to show us what he/she can do in battle!



I also find Lee Moder's art a bit... stick figure-like. Almost everyone is rather thin, and it doesn't help that there are a lot of lines on their faces.

There was a throwaway line about the Workforce being able to track the goons who stole the weapons cache back in Legionnaires 21, but I agree that their arrival was very smooth in terms of storytelling.

Pretty much my assessment, as well. What stands out to me is that, although the stakes are high, there's an almost comical undertone in how the various Legionnaires react to the situation and several moments which, if not outright funny, are genuinely amusing.

Brainiac 5 comes front and center for the first time in the series. I love his depiction as a super-smart guy who is so devoted to theory that it doesn't bother him if they all burn up. He brings Saturn Girl along on the mission solely so she can monitor how the others are treated. If they're abused, Brainy says, he and others can stop working on the shields and magnetic tunnel. That's a very abstract way of looking at the situation! To his credit, Brainy seems to care about his teammates enough to monitor their treatment; on the other hand, maybe he just doesn't like to be double crossed.

The story is full of unexpected twists, with Bur Rac acting as a wild card as much as Brainy. First he trails Brainy and crew because he doesn't trust them, and then he broadcasts his racist thoughts, via Imra, to the other prisoners, sending them on a rampage. This scene is comical yet effective in moving the story along to its resolution. In a development which would make Star Trek proud, Lyle finds a pseudo-scientific way of not only containing the prisoners but saving everyone's hide. In this way, the story makes effective use of science fiction without getting bogged down in details.

The scenes of the Legionnaires and Workforce in their cells afford us opportunities to get to know them in a way that was short-changed in earlier stories. In a brilliant move, the writers have the characters interact in unusual pairings, so we get to see, as Ibby notes, Jenni's friendliness with Val and fear of talking too much; Rokk and Tinya both acting selfless; Tinya's heartbreaking episode of dropping in on Sussa and Jo (who says absolutely nothing!); Triad arguing with herself (!) and being put in her place by Inferno; and the wonderful Gim and Cham scene, in which the former's hostility toward the latter finally begins to soften.

The Jeff Moy/Tom Simmons art is much more appealing than Moder/Boyd, and while Moy's manga-like style often seems too lighthearted for the series, it suits this story well.

Only two minor complaints: Lyle's acrophobia seemed as unnecessary as Garth's fear of the lightning did a couple of issues ago--a rather clunky way of introducing a character flaw. I don't recall Lyle's acrophobia being developed or even mentioned again; certainly, it never became a major story point, as Garth's fear of the lightning did.

Also, Val remains the most underdeveloped character so far. That's perhaps understandable in a series already populated with so many characters, but even "minor" ones such as Sussa and Evolvo come across as having personalities. Val just kind of stands around, matter of factly tells us why he's joined Workforce, and then kicks his way through the force field. While his calmness and reserve are traits that will be developed in this boot, in his appearances so far he comes off as flat.

But those are very minor complaints in an issue that brings a satisfying end to the Planet Hell story. This is even the first issue that doesn't end on a cliffhanger; though Garth and Rokk’s conversation hints at things to come, it also provides a nice sense of closure to this first arc of Legion stories. The Legion began with Garth and Rokk meeting aboard a spaceship, and so the first storyline of the reboot ends with them going their separate ways.

Grade: 96.7 (A)

Lyle's acrophobia would be referenced in LSH 68 and again (though not overtly; if you didn't know he had a fear of heights you'd think he was just complaining) in Legionnaires 33. However, these ARE just references and do not have any impact whatsoever on the story, oddly enough. I suppose not every character trait has to be there for a reason, but it does seem odd.

I also agree it was satisfying for the Legion to have a victory (and a pretty overwhelming one at that) which they are able to savor a bit. Except for poor Garth. This is a clear signal to us readers that this Postboot Legion is different from the Preboot version, and will continue to be so.

Interestingly, the creators of the reboot kept finding new ways to make established Legion events happen all over again. For example, Ayla replaces Garth, just as she did in the preboot. Garth loses his arm, just as he did in the preboot. The circumstances have changed, but the outcome is the same.

Perhaps this was intentional or perhaps the Legion's overall story just "goes" this way. When the creators tried to do something truly different--such as Gim dying or Vi becoming Emerald Violet, or Jeckie as a snake--it was met with hostile fan reaction. Perhaps such developments veered too far away from the way the Legion's story is supposed to go. (Okay, Sneckie was just silly.)

In many ways, the reboot was different; in many ways, it was the same.

That's a good point - we can add the Imra-Garth relationship, which took some time to materialize. Of course, there are also many Preboot events which never came to fruition - Lyle, Triad and Ferro never died, and the Lar-Tasmia relationship was never quite established.

There are also some Postboot developments which met with (I think) generally more welcome fan reaction - Triad surviving COMPUTO and Ferro surviving the Suneater of course, and the memberships of XS, Gates and Kinetix (and to a lesser extent, Kid Quantum II and Gear and Shikari).

I think part of the intrigue was trying to guess which events would eventually play out as they did Preboot. Of course, not everyone would agree.

And yes, Sneckie was really just silly.

I think it’s hard for a writer to know when or not to cross a line. They want to be creative but they don’t want to piss people off either and loose readers. On a few things they just went a little too far. Like Snekie. I wouldn’t have minded her being non-human, but not that far! I didn’t mind Gim dying because I knew I’d have Karate Kid back. It’s a bit of a tradeoff I suppose.

Yeah, having a giant space snake is a cool concept if it's NOT a character who used to be human. Shikari, at least, was still humanoid plus the creators (DNA) went on record many times saying that she was NOT a Postboot version of Dawnstar.

Good point about writers not knowing when to cross the line. As I've been doing these re-reads, I've been impressed with just how much the series appears to be aimed at a very young audience. Developments like a snake Legionnaire and a bug Legionnaire would appeal to very young readers. But the creators also had to contend with us old fogies (or not-so-old fogies) whose love for the preboot characters colored our perceptions of this version.

The best children's stories--at least the best ones I've read--appeal to adults, as well (Harry Potter, f'r instance). They do so by not talking down to their audience. I can't help but feeling that the creation of Sensor was talking down to the audience ("You like snakes, boys and girls? Of course you do! Here's a snake Legionnaire!"). Too, they were playing a deliberate bait-and-switch game with long-time readers by introducing Jeckie in her original preboot appearance and then revealing that appearance to be an illusion. It was almost as if they were seeing how far they could go in crossing that line.

Don't think I could get my head wrapped around the "talking down to" bit.

It didn't seem a popular idea. I certainly didn't like it. But I didn't feel like anyone was patting me on the head. It was just an idea, that her world was all an illusion. Maybe there was some intended allegory, books and covers.... to tie into the xenophobia plots but I never got the feeling the writers felt their audience was stupid or immature. It seemed like an idea presented with all intents to explore concepts.

The adult reader in me wishes the creators had developed the already large team we have before throwing even more new Legionnaires at us. The geeky kid in me screams, "More Legionnaires!"

I think the geeky kid in all of us wins out with this one, as it's a fun, lighthearted issue that harkens back to the membership tryouts of old. There's no major catastrophe to deal with, no real villains even (though Micro is a murderous snot), just a sense of exploration and mystery over who will be the new Legionnaires.

It's fitting that the Legionnaires actually get to participate in the selection. Had Micro not decided to steal the show (and Ion's life), the Imskian selection would have been up to the team. Also, Gim and Cham are shown exercising their discretion by abandoning Gates (at least for now); they also appear to have a say in Kinetix's membership. The team is maturing and earning Chu's trust, though the prez does pull in Laurel Gand, who is to be their mightiest member, and has a pre-selected Xanthuan on the way. Hey, the prez isn't going to give up all her authority.

It's fascinating that all three of those selected are girls, and that the girls outnumber the boys for perhaps the first time in Legion history. What's even more fascinating is how varied the three recruits' personalities are--on a team already bursting with strong personalities, that's no mean feat. Of course, since the book is already crowded, we're afforded only glimpses of one or two personalities for each: Laurel is the powerhouse but also a bigot; Zoey is greedy for more power but also a playful girl; Salu is shy (natch) but also a highly skilled fighter.

I have to thank Ibby for highlighting that last trait in his review, as I had thought Vi's scenes were a bit too obvious. They were meant to establish that, despite her shyness, she is Legion material, yet they go over the top (that phrase again) in having her solve the murder and then singlehandedly catch the killer. Vi seemed on the verge of suffering from Wesley Crusher Syndrome. But, as Ibby points out, Vi's fighting skills establish her as someone who can do more than just shrink; such skills will be a definite asset to the team and offer a fresh angle to her character that wasn't present (or at least not emphasized) in the preboot.

As for the veteran Legionnaires, they get a few bits of character development, as well. It was refreshing to see Tinya lay into the culturally insensitive cop and then just walk away with her head held high when he responds sarcastically later on. This Tinya is nobody's fool, and she's not going to be baited by a loudmouth with a badge. Meanwhile, Gim and Cham have grown so close in such a short amount of time that Gim now addresses the Durlan as "Bud." Cham's Interlac is improving, as he throws in the odd word here and there.

The Moder/Boyd artwork has also improved, though there are a few places that remain awkward or unclear. The arrangement of the panels and images on Pages 2 and 3 made me think I was supposed to read them straight across and then down (which left me thinking Chu was Apparition on Page 3, Panel 1). Also, Vi's fight scene with Micro is full of stiff and awkward anatomy. And Page 21 left me wondering why Vi was holding the tiny Micro in her hands when, in the first panel on that page, both are shown growing to the size of the cops. I had to look at the page several times before I realized they still weren't grown to full size. (The flowing white curtains in Panel 1 are apparently Apparition's cape.)

LSH 66 does what its creators set out to do: Introduce three new Legionnaires in a surprising, fun, and lighthearted way. This is the kind of storytelling that made the Adventure run so much fun, and it's nice to see that tradition updated for the reboot.

Grade: 90.0 (A-)

I'm guessing you were not a young reader when these issues came out, BB. They're the ones I suppose were being talked down to, not us old-timers.

Pretty sure that my not seeing where you're coming from with that opinion doesn't have to do with whether I was young or old when I first or later read this. I just don't find anything in the writing or the conception to support it like you do or perhaps the words "talk down to" have a different connotation to me than to they do to you. eh.

Without further evidence, words from the writers, I think it was just a concept, not an attempt to reach a snakes and raccoon aged audience, whatever that might be. And even it if was, I don't really see anything specific about it that would be considered "talking down to" that audience?

I'm not sure about that, but towards the end of the Postboot (between LSH 100 and the beginning of the DNA run) I did notice that some of the dialogue began getting more "childlike". It's hard to describe, but I'll cite examples when we get to that era. And it wasn't just Lori Morning, but the Legionnaires too.

It also stands out that Vi, at this early point in the team's existence, has shown more advanced combat skills than even Science Police Cadets Imra and Gim. It could be that Vi has simply been given the opportunity to do so, unlike with the others.

In general though, I find that hand-to-hand combat skills were highlighted more in the Postboot. Legionnaires who have to throw punches to take their enemies down, like Violet, Triad, Lyle, and Tinya are all shown to be very skilled. Even Imra and Tasmia, whose powers are a bit more offensive, are good fighters.

Hope Ibby doesn’t mind if I proceed with the next ish:

Legionnaires 23

“Flight”

Summary:

After Invisible Kid introduces the Legionnaires to their new mode of transportation—the flight ring—the girls take a night on the town. Andromedra tries to make friends and has a disturbing encounter with other racists. Apparition still has mommy issues.

Review:

Where to begin with this one? It is probably hands down the best issue so far, in terms of what the creators attempted to do and what they succeeded in doing. “Flight” is a classic “A Day in the Life of” type of story which gives us a great opportunity to know members of our large cast a little better. This single-issue tale paves the way for future story developments, yet it celebrates the central appeal of the Legion: the joy of having super-powers, being able to fly, and belonging to a team.

Although I focus more on the writing in these reviews, I couldn’t help but notice the art. Jeffrey Moy (he’s credited by his full name here) and W.C. Carani rock, as does Tom McCraw on colors. The art is sharp, crisp, and clear. This is the bright, shiny future the 30th century is supposed to be. It’s not perfect (as Andromeda’s encounter with those of “her kind” will demonstrate), but there is hope and joy—especially as expressed in the Legionnaires’ faces when they realize that Lyle’s rings enable them to fly. The bottom of Page 3 and the splash on Page 4 beautifully express this sense of liberation and wonder.

(And the settings aren’t bad, either. Check out the lounge/rec room in Panel 1 of Page 3. Who wouldn’t want to hang out there?)

The story rocks, as well. The Legionnaires are depicted as universal teens everywhere. There’s the thrill of the being able to fly. Then Brainy’s jealousy of Lyle begins as the latter gets the accolades for creating something from Brainy’s lab failure. Then the girls want to go out and have fun, but the boys want to stay in and play with the V.R. (a futuristic video game, natch)—Imra, significantly, also chooses the V.R. But the rest of the girls dress in civilian clothes and go to a new club.

Here we get to know the Legion lasses by watching them interact. Zoey keeps changing “Shy Vi’s” clothes to hilarious effect. The girls tease each other over which Legion boys they like. Laurel is so out of place she wears her uniform to go out. And Tinya unexpectedly encounters her mother, who makes her go home and reminds us that these super-hero kids are, well, kids.

Of course, it wouldn’t be much of a story if nothing “bad” happened, and something does: A trio of racists take out their hatred on a fish-like alien. Laurel pursues them and then lets them go.

There’s so much in Laurel’s expression at the bottom of Page 20: confusion, a reflection of herself, perhaps? If she condemns these attackers, she will have to condemn herself, and she is nowhere near ready to do that.

The other scene which stands out for me is one of Rokk and Imra nearly sharing a kiss while getting lost in their V.R. characters. This scene, like the one above, plays with our conceptions of what Legionnaires are supposed to do. Imra is supposed to be with Garth, not Rokk! But this is a new Legion, full of new possibilities.

Flaws? The transition from Page 8 to Page 9 is jarring, as we go from Laurel’s nervous request to join the gang to Garth’s dream. But that’s the only one which jumps out at me.

Grade: 99.0 (A+)

Issue information for Legionnaires 23

Thanks for continuing, HWW! I was planning to post last night but dinner ended late.



Couldn't agree more. Even the way Obin Der convinced Andromeda to make friends - "or we could pull you back here where you won't have any super powers at all" - speaks to that. Laurel is toughing it out NOT really because she wants to make Daxam proud, but more because of the sheer joy of having powers.



Ditto. The Legionnaires look just about right for the age too, and they make the 30th century look like an era I would want to live in.



Lyle DID give credit to Brainy for accidentally creating the flight ring metal, but I understand where Brainy's coming from. The way Lyle revealed the surprise put the spotlight entirely on him. And Lyle went and created the flight rings without involving or collaborating with Brainy.

On the other hand, Brainy completely ignored his creation and he isn't exactly the collaborative type.

Still, I can imagine how Brainy is feeling now - "I'm the one who was put on the team for being smart, but because I didn't use my smarts to create anything cool - they don't praise me as they do Lyle!"



Ayla's line "I keep thinking all the boys will turn out like my brothers" is telling as well. The Ranzz siblings are definitely not close.

Poor Tinya, look at how her mom treated her making a scene in public like that.

And Zoe shows that she returns Gim's attractions...



Laurel is nowhere near as violent as they are, but I agree that she subscribes to their beliefs completely.



I like this scene, though. The way Imra has interacted with both Rokk and Garth so far makes this scene very organic and possible. She has been equally close to either of them (possibly closer to Rokk than to Garth!), so even if this goes contrary to everything we know from the Preboot, it is acceptable and believable.

Notice how the other Legionnaires don't seem too much care that Brainy created the substance which powers their flight rings? Lyle tried to do the right thing--give credit where credit is due--but I imagine that only makes Brainy even more jealous. Lyle is doing everything "right," which calls attention to the fact that Brainy is doing everything wrong, at least as far as being accepted by his teammates is concerned.

And yes, Lyle does succeed in self promotion!

Just to be clear, I loved the Rokk and Imra scene, too. I appreciate the risks the creators were taking here. I almost wish they had gone further and had Rokk and Imra become a real couple (as opposed to a her subconsciously manipulating his unconscious form). But perhaps that would have been too great a change from what fans expected.

One flaw in Lyle's method is that he only mentioned Brainy's involvement after he'd demonstrated the rings could fly. Naturally, the others were too excited by the rings to listen. Before Lyle revealed the rings could fly they were politely grateful too, but nobody was exactly kissing Lyle.

When you think about it, the Legionnaires are much like today's teens and young adults. They can be a bit too distracted and self-absorbed sometimes - nobody really notices Brainy's involvement (to be fair, he doesn't deserve much credit either) and when Ayla was introduced almost nobody noticed Garth's reaction.

Rokk and Imra would have been interesting, although the contrast between Imra's and Garth's personalities ultimately (IMO) makes them a much more dynamic couple. I do like that before she subconsciously manipulated Rokk, Imra and he were in a "real" (for all intents and purposes, as it was a mutual decision) relationship. Rokk was definitely attracted. As to whether Imra returned the attraction, well we can probably discuss that better when we get to those issues

Which just tells me that Lyle had a good sense of drama.




Absolutely. I think this is true of teens of any generation.

I'm leaning more towards "a good sense of self-promotion" I don't think he minded too much that all attention was on him rather than on Brainy either

You summed the issue up perfectly with this paragraph. Looking back, there are so many little moments that stand out.

Besides the ones you mentioned, we have:

Brainy being stunned upon seeing Andromeda;

Triad's line - "something FUN finally happens to us!" And all three Triad's agree! This is the first time we've seen Triad in civilian garb where each triplet wears a different outfit. Triad Purple is sharp enough to catch Jenni's crush (which hadn't really been made apparent before!) on Rokk. (Purple's outfit is also easily the most daring of all the girls'!), while Triad's time on Earth makes her the sort-of tour guide of the group over - Chicago? Ooh.

Gim invites Cos to the VR, and Cham apparently tags along. Lyle and Brainy apparently aren't invited because they're the "smart" kids I guess.

Zoe's line: "same on MY world. You just can't get a boy to dance." Her changing Violet's clothes and sort of taking the shy girl under her wing. (Hey, if I had her powers I'd be changing my clothes into new outfits too instead of buying new ones!) And she (and Triad) among the girls seem to be the most mature of all of them - except for the part where she keeps changing Violet's outfit without permission. (On the bottom right of Page 14, we see a version of Violet's Adventure costume. We see one again on page 17!) When she's helping the alien who got attacked, she also takes on quite a bedside manner.

Tinya's obviously been in clubs before, as she's the one telling all the others to act "cool". But Earth's crowd seems to be a lot more uppity than Bgztl's.

Page 14 - the alien in the upper right panel of the page looks like someone from Vulcan!

Jenni is impatient but still very nice, as she says Garth's a great guy. She's also fast enough to get in - I wonder, could she have snuck the others in one by one using her speed?

Ayla's younger age and relative inexperience with the big city is showing - she's the only one besides Andromeda who seems to have just learned about Earth's old custom of killing animals for food. She also trashes the club as snotty - though I admire her for not getting hung up on it.

Andromeda's xenophobia and racism obviously extend to all races/species (I think the writers used "race" to account for the possibility of inter-breeding, as most Legionnaire couples come from different homeworlds!). Still, she makes a decent effort to get along with the other girls and you can see she's genuinely concerned about keeping order and about the safety of the "fish man".