Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

I imagine it will be very hard to read the sequence of Jean's supposed death in Antarctica, circa # 114, and Scott's denial and coming to terms with it, and think that it's not the "real" Jean. That retcon, I believe, was one of the worst developments Marvel ever foisted upon its characters and fans. As a fan, I felt betrayed.

I agree.

I agree, too.

Backtracking for a moment to the humanoid Sentinels thing, I want to reiterate that I think Mike Carey really made the concept work and that his six-year run on X-Men/X-Men Legacy was the best since Claremont. Despite inconsistent art, I highly recommend it.

To be clear, I'm not reading it that way, either. It's hard, however, not to read the shuttle crash and not remember what was ret-conned in. But I'll always read these stories as actually being about Jean Grey as intended. It's a shame that Marvel wants us not to do so with what they did.

By the way, shouldn't somebody update the title of this thread? I've almost missed it recently, thinking Swamp Thing and Sandman Mystery Theater referred to a different thread.

I changed it a while ago. I'm showing it as changed on the thread list, but each post has the old header. Are you guys seeing the old title on the list?

I'm also seeing the old title on the Active Topics list.

I see it with the old title when inside the thread. Outside of this thread, it appears with Claremont's X-Men in the name.

I'm seeing it the same as Emily.

X-Men 102

For a middle chapter and one that is essentially an extended fight sequence, this issue is fairly loaded with some nice tidbits:

---Jean Grey is roommates with Misty Knight! Seeing this made me have the germ of a memory of this fact. I'm curious, though, to see how much more this will be explored, if at all. Was Claremont writing Iron Fist at the time? If so, did Jean make any appearances of significance there? How did they meet? The mind boggles with the potential! I'm curious to see if any of it made it to the printed page....

---Jean's brief appearance here features a creepy moment that shows that all may not be right with her. (If I were Misty, I would've bugged out on their shared pad after that! )

---Lilandra's face is more clearly seen.

---The elves (or whatever) that Huey lamented a while back appear, ironically to rescue our favorite fuzzy elf.

---Colossus's passion for Ororo manifests again! Seriously, I wonder why Claremont eventually dropped this potential pairing. Was it more about the characters dictating that it wouldn't work (which could very well be the case) or could it have been Marvel editorial interfering and objecting to an interracial pairing? Not saying they did, but black heroes were still a novelty and interracial relationships a bit controversial.....so?

---The now-familiar details of Ororo's childhood and causes for her phobia are revealed. Over the years, we will see even more filled in and find more details about what is shown here and more not hinted at.

So in a fairly light issue, it seems the time to bring up some more Cockrum love, this time focusing on his design of Storm. Under Cockrum's pencil, Ororo is such an exotic and unique character in her appearance. I think a lot of it comes down to her eyes. Their largeness and shape in and around them gives her such an almost alien, otherworldly look. The irises are elongated and somewhat catlike. Her eyebrows and the rounded face accentuate her unusual look. And, of course, there's the distinctive white hair to accent everything.

I love that Cockrum made her look so unique and memorable. Maybe that vaguely alien look is a holdover from when he had planned to use the same basic character for the Legion? I'm not sure if his ideas for that version of the character were revealed, but I'm certainly curious.

I think Byrne will do a good job preserving that otherness about her, but over the years, Cockrum's design for her has been diluted and somewhat homogenized. In any case it's a pleasure to rediscover her creator's pure vision of the character as she came to be published during this re-read.

Also about 102 that I forgot....

---Peter and Juggy's tussle makes me fondly flash-forward to their epic bar fight during JRJr's run as artist many years from then!

---Kurt's ability to blend into shadows is referenced for the first time here and quite weirdly and dramatically as part of his body is in shadow after he's knocked unconscious. I don't know that the power is ever illustrated in this partial manner ever again. I guess we'll see.

---It's nice to see Storm emerge from her fugue at the end of the issue and stand up to Juggernaut. I like how the cliché is avoided in that her turnaround doesn't make a difference. It doesn't lessen her moment of bravery any less, in my opinion.

BTW, the issue causing the old title to show up under Active topics, etc. has been fixed. The problem's in the replies since the change still showing as replies to the old title, so I edited my last post in the title part to reflect the new discussion! One of the foibles of this board.....

If the next poster could hit the "reply" button first instead of simply posting in the box at the bottom, it should fix things moving forward.

X-Men (2nd half of) #101 - #103
Following the Sentinels story, Claremont & Cockrum give a nice change of pace by taking only the new X-Men to Ireland where three things can take place: a further understanding of Banshee’s history; the reintroduction of the classic X-Men foe the Juggernaut; and a chance to see the new X-Men without Cyclops or Prof. X. And once again, Claremont and Cockrum deliver in spades.

What sets this one apart is that there is a clear sense of fun here. Claremont has stated that a lot of that comes from Dave—the elves were purely his idea and he was consciously trying to showcase the action as being adventuresome and wonderfully chaotic. I think its effective, especially in light of the very serious death / resurrection of Jean Grey at the start of #101, and the heavy themes of the prior story arc.

I like that we get more information on Banshee and that’s its pretty straight-forward. Thus far we have mysteries into the pasts of Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler, not to mention implied “things we never knew before” about Professor X. It’s nice to a character whose history we have a good sense of. This mirrors the fact that Banshee is basically the most stable of all the X-Men now, including Cyclops. Between this story and the following Magneto story, he essentially assumes the role as deputy leader / second-in-command (with Magneto even paying him a lot of respect vocally). Lardy mentioned how nice it is to read these stories with Sean and I’ll echo that. He really adds a nice element to the earlier stories. We’ll also later see him take on the role of being Wolverine’s friend (when others aren’t quite on board), a bit of an older brother to Storm, and the one Cyclops can lean on. Naturally, when any character has this role, they ultimately have to be removed so the others are left without that crutch of support—so its pretty great to see it all play out.

The other X-Man to really get some spotlight is Storm. Ororo already was shaping up to be one of Marvel’s most interesting characters with her look and powers alone, but her backstory really clinches it. African Goddess, and before that Master Thief (one of my favorite aspects of her that is so commonly forgotten) and before that a brief history in NYC. And of course, her claustrophobia, which is a trademark of her character. She’s just so fascinating! One of the great tragedies of Marvel is their mismanagement of Storm post-Claremont, as no one really has ever seemed to know what to do with her. But here I can forget all that and sit back and enjoy as each story showcases her more and more.

The Juggernaut was already considered one of the X-Men’s classic villains, and Claremont continues his re-establishment of classic X-foes in the all-new, all-different world. He does something great here: he establishes his long time partnership with Black Tom Cassidy, who is the brains of the outfit. That small change makes so many future Juggy stories so much more interesting by providing better motivation for what they do. Claremont obviously liked villain partnerships, and saw it as a way to enhance a pre-existing character; the other big example is when he takes the easily forgettable Silver Samurai and ups the ante by giving him a partner with Viper. Juggy isn’t too prolific for a while after but ultimately he’ll return many times during Claremont’s middle and later years.

As always, there is also just the tits-deep plethora of things happening in the story beyond all that. The aforementioned elves silliness is one, and there’s also Nightcrawler’s shadow powers, which are never quite developed once Dave leaves, though occasionally used when a writer needed them. The Eric the Red plot is advanced, Wolverine and Colossus appear to be at each other’s throats most of the time, and Professor X’s subplot continues. Wolverine’s name is revealed to be Logan for the first time. And Misty Knight is shown to be Jean Grey’s roommate. To answer Lardy’s comment, Claremont was indeed writing Iron Fist at this time, with none other than John Byrne! On the side, Claremont and Byrne were developing the Daughters of the Dragon in Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu, and then would add them into the ongoing Iron Fist comic. I do believe Jean is referenced / seen a few times around now as being Misty’s roommate. And of course, there is a major X-Men appearance that chronologically takes place right after X-Men #108 in Byrne’s last (or second to last) issue of Iron Fist.

One other thing I liked was Banshee hurling Black Tom to his death in self-defense. That is the realism the X-Men brought to the table that few other comics were doing, though it had been tested a few times already in the 70’s (Big John Buscema wasn’t shy about Thor killing his foes as early as 1971). Naturally this would be exploited until it was loathsome in the next 25 years, but at that moment it was very surprising.

X-Men #104
With the new X-Men still detached from the Prof / Jean / Cyke, we get another story in which Claremont reintroduces an X-foe to the all-new, all-different universe, and this time it’s the most major one of them all, Magneto. And in that, Claremont takes the first step in taking a standard, albeit well-rounded, super-villain and making him so much more. Basically, what Claremont does in this issue is try to brush off all the shabby Magneto stories that took place since the X-Men went on hiatus (in Inhumans, Avengers, Defenders…the last one especially) and restoring the X-Men’s greatest foe to being someone who deserved that moniker. He quickly restored him physically—and with what a grand entrance on that splash page!--and then by issue’s end he restored him in the sense that he actually defeats the new X-Men! It’s a very sharp decision, and one that was not easily made in those days. A clear victory by the villain? Surprising, effective and very daring.

It also sets the stage for the long transformation Magneto will undergo. First his victory; later the “draw”; and ultimately, his defeat…which in turn sets him down a different path to possible redemption. All the while, Claremont gives Magento perhaps the best back story of any Marvel “villain”. He’s definitely a candidate for single most interesting character during the entire run.

The other major accomplishment of this issue was taking the walk-on “housekeeper” and turning her into the Moira MacTaggert we all know and love. We quickly learn she’s so much more in the form of a brilliant scientist with a complex backstory that involves Professor X. Even better, the concept of Muir Island is established, which provides yet another awesome location for the X-Men to continually revisit (another of Claremont’s strengths).

For a single story issue, #104 also is chock full of supporting characters, as Claremont continues to establish the mutant universe in the MU. Madrox, the first mutant he ever created in a recent Fantastic Four giant-sized, is brought into the series as an assistant to Moira, which is the role he’ll play for over 10 years. For me, that only makes him more interesting and I wonder if readers were requesting more from him?

The X-Men had been bickering pretty regularly since their introduction but you get the sense that they are started to coalesce as a team…with some exceptions. The big one is the Cyclops / Wolverine tension and it stands out as everyone else seems to be coming together while the rift between them seems to get louder. It’s one of the key characteristics that set Wolverine apart in these early days, and legend has it that it led to letter after letter of fans writing in to get rid of him. That relationship between Cyke and Logan works especially well with a team of only about 6 heroes. It has often been duplicated but its never been quite as successful.

The issue ends in an incredibly insane way as well, with page after page of big things and lingering subplots. I found that especially odd. You get:
…the Ani-Man known as Dragonfly appears to escape…but to where? Does anyone know? I have no idea! Iron Fist?
…Magneto triumphant! Shocking!
…the first hints of Proteus dropped waaaaaaaaay in advance of that story. Personally, I love this dangling subplots. This one is like 23 issues in advance!
…The first Starjammers!
…the first “real” Lilandra appearance!
…round two with Eric the Red and at last Polaris & Havok again!

These issues, leading into the first Shi’ar story, are the issues that I think really start to move the A-N, A-D X-Men towards being the mutants we all know and love by establishing a lot of the important characteristics of them individually and as a group, while also shedding some of the initial plot points / elements that weren’t quite essential to moving forward.

Lardy, your comment on Ororo's look reminded me of a plot point towards the end of Claremont's run (after you stopped collecting) where Storm dies, is reborn and then is a little girl, and later is restored. At some point she is analyzed by a physician and they comment that she is the perfect merger of all the planet's races into one person, referencing her eyes as being Asian.

This plot point was never followed up on again as far as I know.

I had forgotten how important Sean was in the early days of the New X-Men, but your analysis is spot on. It's really a shame they wrote him out when they did. The X-Men had a stable lineup during those days, and they felt like family. As with any family, when one member leaves it's never the same. The X-Men transitioned into something else with Sean's departure--whether for better or worse remains to be seen.

I'd also forgotten about the elves and Nightcrawler's ability to blend into shadows. Now that I think about it, that image of him lying half invisible in the shadows was quite eerie--another reason why this book was so special: It was full of surprises.

^ I think I kinda nailed it in one of my reviews on the previous page when I summed up Banshee's character as "comfort food".

You're welcome!

I can't find your review just now, Lardy, though I know I read it previously. However, I'm not sure "comfort food" describes Sean's role on the team. "Comfort food" suggests something easy, soft, something to fall back on when you've had a stressful day. Sean was much more than that. He was someone who could call Xavier by his first name, who was experienced enough to be second in command of the team, and someone who had a varied yet straightforward past (as Cobie suggests): He was from Ireland, had a castle there, loved country music, and had once been a super-villain. Sean Cassidy had been around the block a time or two. He was the elder statesman of the team, but an active participant, unlike Xavier.

Comfort food? More like someone whose age and experience validated the X-Men's ongoing mission, much like Beast (Kelsey Grammar) served in the third film.

I dunno, Huey. With an excess of angst, edginess, personality conflicts and growing pains going on with the others, I think the analogy is at least somewhat valid for Sean. Sean was the grown-up, the dad, in a group of embattled young adults (yeah, Logan's not "young", but his problems mirror those of the young). He was the stable, kind, cool-headed member in an unstable group for the other members, and the readers by extension, to rely upon. Yes, it's an oversimplification and one that's not meant to say that's all there is to the character, but I think there's something it.

Here's the comment I made, which was actually in regard to 98. That's why it was hard to find. Sorry!

Hm. To me, it sounds like something best left forgotten. I'm perfectly fine with Ororo looking the way she does just because it's how she looks, personally! (Flashes back to Bill Mantlo's awful 'secret origin' of Northstar and Aurora... )

^Agreed. I never read the story in question, but it sounds like something I wouldn't enjoy. Some writers take things too literally.

When you put it that way, it makes more sense to me.

BTW, it occurred to me--and is something easily missed--that the "Council of the Chosen" in the Sentinels story is later revealed / retconned to actually be the Hellfire Club. I believe this is shown in an issue of X-Men Classic in the back story. The Hellfire Club's active participation in developing Sentinels inspires Sebastian Shaw to make alliances and perform the coup necessary to take over the Hellfire Club and form the Inner Circle with Emma Frost, etc. It also explains Shaw's existing Government contracts which we later see.

You don't need to know any of that to enjoy the awesomeness of #98-101 but I enjoy how Claremont continually tied all of his stories together which in turn provided ongoing forward momentum in the series.

Asgardian Fairies...