Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

And since you guys have unleashed the demon by talking about all this, some more comments...

...Fanfie, ASM #200 is a masterpiece and one of the great Spidey issues of all time. When I first discovered it, at age 11 after I had literally just read the first 199 ASM's plus all the PP:TSS's up to that point, I was totally blow away. I couldn't believe the build-up to it either, where Aunt May actually appears to die!

...The pre-Slott, Brand New Day era had some pretty fantastic Spidey stories. Not only did Roger and DeMatteis return briefly, but Joe Kelly proved himself to be not only a phenomenal writer but someone who has Spidey's number. His stories were the best of the best of that era. And Zeb Wells, a writer who I know so little about that I have to assume is a pen-name, proved to be a great Spidey writer who was great at charming, funny one-shot stories, injecting that sense of fun in the series again. I also loved, loved, loved all the work Fred Van Lente did on the title which is what made me a fan of his work. I know Fanfie outright dislikes his work, but his Spidey stuff is what I consider the best stuff he's ever done.

...the first 200+ issues of Spectacular are pretty amazing too in terms of powerhouse writers. Conway & Archie Goodwin open up the series with some solid, fun Spidey tales that I love greatly. Bill Mantlo delivered some fantastic work to follow and then of course Roger took over for a long run. Even Al Milgrom had a nice little run with the Answer, Black Cat and Kingpin, and then of course PAD came in and blew us away. From there DeMatteis took over for a long time. There are a few duds along the way but those first 200+ issues were terrific for the most part.

I, of course, am aware of this apparent truth and certainly thought of this as I made my top five list. I dunno...I figure if his major contribution as a creator were those first 16 or so stories and then just dialogue and captions on the rest of his long run, then I think he still qualifies as one of the best for the character--though not THE best, as he'd otherwise easily be if he were an equal creator. His dramatic scripting style really captivated me as I discovered ASM thru those Marvel Tales reprints. So if those were his words at least, then he deserves recognition as a top Spidey writer for that alone. I think ASM is the cream of the Silver Age, so Stan Steve and JR all hold a special place in my heart for that.

I loved PPSM about equally to ASM back in the day, though I noticed that the more "important" stories often appeared in ASM.

You know what I've been thinking about lately? The Owl/Octopus War! Now, THAT was a great saga, and it appeared in PPSM! Who wrote that? Mantlo? Stern?

Mantlo wrote it. I forgot to mention him in my list of good-to-great Spidey writers, but I think he certainly deserves to be on it thanks to his early 80s work on Spectacular, especially the issues where he collaborated with Ed Hannigan.

Yeah, those issues made the Black Cat into a character to love and care about. Really fantastic little run!

Lardy, you're right that usually ASM had the tent pole important game-changer stories. Though in the Mantlo Black Cat era, it felt like PP:TSS was equally as important because of what was happening with her!

And then Web came along and it was like "oh, okay. Three great Spidey series is too much to ask for."

PP:TSS also has the Carrion Saga early on, which was like another sequel to the Goblin / Jackal / Goblin III series of major arcs. That was one that had me flipping out when I first discovered it.

Yeah, that was another really great one--I thought of that as well. It's interesting to think of the Owl/Octopus war because of Otto's recent prominence in Superior and the Owl's return as a big threat in Daredevil.

I'm curious, though, what your reaction is was to my earlier reply regarding Stan Lee on ASM:



Any thoughts?

As for Ock / Owl, that's a cool point and it's cool to think of that story in today's context. That was probably the best Doc Ock story in like 10 years at the time--probably since Capt Stacy had died in ASM #88-90. He came off very well there.

As for your Stan comments I can certainly see where you're coming from. You know I'm in total agreement that Silver Age Spidey was the creme de la creme of the Silver Age, and I also feel it's the best the series has EVER been, and probably ever will be.

It's hard to separate what Stan contributed to what he didn't but got credit for all those years because so much we simply don't know exactly. But his "influence" was certainly felt on the series--especially his dialogue in Romita's first few years, which was some of my favorite in the history of comics. So, yes, I would say he was one of the great creators who worked on Spider-Man. I'd also say Ditko and Romita were two of the great writers, since dialogue is often only half the writing. At the end of the day, it's kind of like splitting hairs and I agree that all 3 deserve "best of" status. It's easy to get mad at Stan but it would be silly to totally discount his contribution.

Btw, I don't know if I ever said this to you but I love that you got to grow up on Marvel Tales reprints concurrently with the then modern Spidey titles. Remember when reprints meant something and were a complimentary force in the industry? I actually don't--only as a student of the medium's history.

So I'm kind of in agreement. I think Ditko is the single most important and greatest creator to ever work on Spider-Man, writer or otherwise, but certainly appreciate and am a major fan of Stan, Romita and so many who came after.

I swear, in my freshman year in high school, I actually talked like Stan Lee's late 60's Peter Parker / Spider-Man, thinking that was how to be cool. Those issues meant that much to me. I also am incredibly thankful to Stan for making the series pick Gwen over MJ for as long as it did, since she was my dream girl as a pre-teen who I based all future girlfriends on.

Yep, I'd say Spidey and the Legion were the two biggest books that had concurrent reprints published to help me immerse myself as a fan of both! It was Marvel Tales for Spidey and these great Adventure Comics (and other) digests for the LSH!

In context, I was reading the greatest mystery in Spider-Man's history in the form of the Hobgoblin's identity (even if the resolution ended up being unsatisfying) in the "new" comics while experiencing Pete fighting tons of his classic foes for the first time, icluding the earliest bouts with the Green Goblin, whose legacy informed the Hobgoblin's, in Marvel tales reprints!

(For the Legion, imagine experiencing Levitz and Giffen's Legion circa the GDS while seeing each member join for the first time in the digest reprints!)



Yer a wise man, Cobie....any time you agree with me, at least!



Er....I hope you didn't throw them off bridges!

There's a metaphor in there about trying to save relationships but only causing the necks to snap but I'm too sober to make it.

Love hearing about your experiences in becoming a major Spidey and LSH fan. You basically had the best of both worlds on both! Stern's Hobby mystery and the original Goblin stories (plus all the other brillaint stories in both eras)? Hell yeah!

So for the last week or two, I read the first four volumes of Marvel Masterworks: The Amazing Spider-Man. The idea to re-read has been in the works for me for, like, 6-8 months somewhere in the midst of my big Avengers reading project. I slowly acquired several volumes I needed (I'd already had vols. 1 & 2) to the point where I now have the first eight, which takes me through ASM 77.

I started it a little sooner than I envisioned because, as documented elsewhere, I'd recently read some Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four (circa the Galactus Trilogy) for the first time ever and didn't feel it lived up to the hype. This worried me some and made me wonder if I might be disappointed re-reading classic Lee/Ditko/Romita Spidey and maybe had developed a distaste for Marvel's Silver Age. So after putting down that FF book, I immediately decided to at least read that first Spidey Masterwork to see if my tastes had evolved too much to enjoy them any more.

Well, I'm elated to say that this has definitely NOT been the case! Maybe it's the nostalgia as much as anything, but I've been loving me some classic ASM at LEAST as much as I did as a young teen! It got to the point where the plan to stop with the first volume kept getting pushed back to the point where I'm forcing myself not to immediately proceed to volume 5 just so I can have some left to savor for later! It's especially hard because I've only ever read thru around ASM 55 before, so there's around 20 issues of "new" material waiting for me!!!

Anyhow, I'm not going to do an intensive review here, but I'm enjoying every bit of it. I've re-discovered Steve Ditko in a big way, to the point where I'm going to have to re-think my Silver Age faves being Swan and Romita. Ditko's storytelling and flair for the weird absolutely defined Spidey's world and cast. He also inked his own work every issues, and even when some issues were a bit more sketchy than others, no doubt due to the heavy workload of inking himself and doing other strips like Doctor Strange, his work was always detailed and stylish. (Romita made a strong debut, as well, with the great Goblin 2-parter that closed Vol. 4 with ASM 39-40.)

I just loved all the soap opera, even as Aunt May's three separate hospitalizations grated just a bit and became repetitive. I was surprised to see just how long Betty Brant remained as a love interest, even if she and Pete were more "off" than "on"--and without so much as ONE on-screen kiss! Lots of fun with continuing developments with Flash and Liz and the ever-watchable JJJ. Plus, Harry and Gwen come on the scene as virtual new meany-head Flash Thompsons but slowly develop more, even as Flash himself occasionally shows a softer side.

Of course, that Master Planner trilogy of ASM 31-33 still stands as the apex of the Ditko era, just as I felt as a young tween/teen. It's basically everything that was, is and will ever be great and iconic in a Spider-man story encapsulated in one great epic.

Overall, I'm just so pleased that ASM is as good as it ever was and always will be. I may be making a reputation for myself here as a Bronze Age/Indie comics guy--and that may very well be accurate overall--but I like what I like, and I think Spider-Man is the greatest super-hero ever created. He's had his ups and downs, certainly, but I don't think any one super-hero character has ever had as many great, entertaining stories and as wonderful a mythology as our man Parker. As much as I love Batman, I challenge anyone to find a better run for him over 40 issues than Spidey had on these alone!

Very well said, Lardy. To reiterate something I stated in this forum not long ago, I think the first 200 issues of ASM are...well...amazing in how consistently good they are!

I adore Betty Brant. With most women in comics at the time being either blonde or raven, with a few auburn and ginger, it's nice to see a brunette getting a substantial and sympathetic role. I also loved that she was older than Peter, because with so many May-December romances in comics slanted the other way, especially in those days, it's refreshing. That's probably why I've always had a high opinion of Betty's cougar phase during the Len Wein ASM run, and kinda wish she'd ended up with Peter instead of Ned (who, let's remember, was NOT originally supposed to be the Hobgoblin.) But as usual, I'm getting way ahead of the era we're actually discussing.

Fun Fact: Jazzy Johnny has admitted that when he started the Spidey gig, he was so uncertain of his appropriateness for it and so sure that Ditko would come back soon, that he spent his early issues doing what he felt was his best approximation of Ditko. I think in a way it was a shame, because Romita's natural style was so perfect for the lighter, more romantic turn that the book was taking right at that moment, but in a way it was a blessing in disguise, because it provided an artistic transition so the change in style wouldn't be as jarring (and possibly alienate the hardcore Ditko fans.)

There's a line in the first few issues of Amazing that imply she's not 'that' much older than Peter. She says something about having to leave high school early, possibly only a year before the events of the book, to have to get a job and support herself. It may have been been emphasized during that issue involving her brother's tragedy. I think that was put in to assuage any concerned readers. Either way, it's kind of interesting and progressive for a Silver Age book.

I will say that her feelings for Spider-man were portrayed inconsistently. It seemed she switched from pro- to anti- every few issues. I could understand her being more against after Bentley's tragedy, but she seemed to immediately forget that angst and later turned for other reasons. I think maybe that was related to her subconscious suspicion that Peter was Spidey. There's a telling issue that opens with her having a nightmare where Peter unmasks that may inform and explain her behavior beyond writer snafus.

But, yeah, I like Betty, too, and it would have been interesting if her role were elevated to the degrees that MJ and Gwen were. I wish that the Tobey Maguire movies would have done more with her, as I think Elizabeth Banks could have been up to the task.



Oddly enough, I didn't feel Romita was aping Ditko at all in those first two issues. In fact, I remember when Marvel Tales reprinted the stories along with the original lettercols reacting to the change and the comments about Aunt May's "face lift" for example. I wonder, though, how Ditko would have drawn MJ. I'm sure he had to have a design in mind with all those Ditko-era teases....unless she was intended to always remain off-panel, in a longstanding tradition of similar characters across various media (like Cheers' Vera, for example)?



I've certainly read most of them over the years and have to heartily agree. My one issue with collected editions at this point, is that most post-Vol. 8 Masterworks are out of print and prohibitively expensive on the after-market. I'm in love with high-quality color reprints and may have to wait for the Omnibus editions to catch up or pray for re-issued Masterworks printings to read/re-read further. I'm especially hot to re-read the original Harry-as-Green-Goblin story, which is one of the first Spider-man stories I ever read as a child!

I'm so glad you've reread these Lardy, and I'm even more thrilled that you loved them all over again. I kinda knew you would, just knowing your personal tastes over the years and having discussed with you before how your original experience reading these stories in Marvel Tales was. Still, it's always awesome to hear!

As I've mentioned too many times to keep count, the original ASM Ditko run is my absolute favorite run in comic book for any character, any genre, period. I've read them to death (and the next 300 issues equally so), but I never tire of talking about them.

I agree with everything you say about Ditko, and I strongly feel he is one of the true great geniuses in comic book history. A lot of fans feel differently, having experienced his late 70's DC work, or Speedball, or something else that isn't really "true Ditko" when he was at his peak. But his work here, and immediately following during his Charleton years, is right up there with the best of the best in comic book history. And like you said, a few things really stand out about that: he was truly unique, with a style that stood far apart from all others. And he inked almost all of his own work--both here and on Dr. Strange.

The classic story of all classic Ditko stories is that had become friendly with Kirby over the years--and as most people know, he is notoriously difficult to get to know and become friends with. So he came into the Marvel offices on an incredibly rare trip there and happened to see one of recent set of pages Kirby had drawn, which also had been freshly inked. Whoever the inker was remains somewhat of a mystery that everyone feels too bad about revealing. Because Ditko saw the inkers job and in a fury picked up the pages and literally THREW THEM IN THE TRASH. He yelled "you guys are murdering Jack's work!" and then he stormed out. Classic Ditko. And a classic example of his total distrust of inkers and the "factory style" of making comic books during the first several decades where a penciler pushed out his work as fast as possible while an inker finished them equally fast, all to get more product out.

We've discussed ASM #31-33 multiple times but I don't mind repeating what I always say: it's not only the single greatest Spider-Man story of all time, it's probably the single greatest superhero story of all time. It holds up more and more, year by year, especially when we see so many other superhero stories fall short by the dozens month after month.

It's great to know you're both fans of Betty Brant. My father, who experienced these issues off the rack and who also holds Spidey above all others (and Ditko too), still feels Betty is Peter's true love interest. It gives him great pleasure to chime in on any discussion about MJ and Gwen to say that neither is Spidey's best love interet, as that role goes to Betty. I disagree with such an extreme statement, but I also love Betty quite a bit as a character. The "heart to heart" she has with Peter where they truly let their relationship go and emerge as friends, is a fantastic scene with Stan at his very best in the dramatic dialogue department.

BTW, I also enjoy Ned quite a bit too, especially when he would have a prominent role in the story (not totally unusual, but less likely than most of the other recurring characters). In the Jackal / Spidey finale in #149, it was Ned who was the supporting character in peril that Spidey had to save--not MJ, not Aunt May, not Harry.

Another facet about the Ditko stories is Ditko's awesome ability to craft incredible super-villains. While Marvel did a pretty good job on a lot of its series in creating super-villains, Spidey stood head and shoulders above the rest; really only the Flash and Batman ever came close to having an equally good Rogues Gallery (and for Batman, certianly not during the Silver Age). So much of the detail on the villains comes to visual choices: making the Vulture an old man; Sandman in an escaped prison uniform; Kraven's regal stance & demeanor; the look of the Enforcers; Mysterio's crazy appearance; the Green Goblin being thin and wily. These oddball visual dynamics helped shape the villains in the reader's eyes.

And of course, there's Jonah. No superhero series has ever had such a major character be so unique. Nothing that came before had anything like him, and nothing that came after could ever measure up to the real thing. And as with Flash Thompson, just when you think they've gone as far as they can with that "one note" character, Ditko--or especially Romita later--and Lee, pull back a few layers and show you a different side to them that keeps them interesting.

Glad to learn your dad likes Betty, Cobie. And thanks, especially, for the hilarious Ditko anecdote.

When you read the same stories so often, you get a certain sense of "I love them all", and I definitely have that for Spider-Man. But some other issues stick out in my mind as personal favorites (even though the last full reread I did of Spidey was in 2006). Of course there is #31-33, and then of course #17-19, which is the other major epic of the Ditko era.

One of the issues I love besides those two classics is ASM #20, which is the first Scorpion story. It totally exemplifies what makes Spidey so great, as he fights the Scorpion three times during the course of the story and loses, fights to a draw and then beats him. Finally, when he is victorious, it appears to the public that Jameson is the real hero--and ironically, he's the one who created the Scorpion in the first place. That sense of perseverance, or not giving up and believing in yourself, and for doing it without getting any credit at all is such an essential part of Spider-Man. The first Doc Ock story in ASM #3 honed right in on that, and other issues did as well, but by #20, Ditko had really fine tuned that type of story.

Digressing a bit, the second Scorpion story, in ASM #30, has my favorite cover when I was a kid. My Dad always used to put all the Silver Age Marvels on display boards to look at the covers, and I was mesmerized by the Spidey ones--and above all, #30.

PS - if anyone reads Spider-Gwen, I'd be real interested to hear opinions on it. I haven't had any intention at all in buying it, but the fact that Gwen is basically the first girl I ever loved at age 11, a part of me is extremely curious about it.

CK I actually picked up Spider Gwen #2 (Which was Spider Verse number 2 I think) I missed number one. It was cool, was drawn in the new retro cool way ... she's in a band called the Mary Janes.

I don't think this is your Gwen. She is cute and cool but more like a girl next door than a bombshell. She's sporty and cool.

She is really just a flip side of Peter Parker. She's got the spider powers and loves Peter ...



Anyway she's got some guilt over it and her dad's a cop .. who trails her as a menace ... instead of Peter being pursued by the press.

So I don't think she has any more solo comics but she is running around the mega spider universe cross time caper where ... out of all the spiders she's got maybe fourth billing and screen time after Peter, Jess, Silk etc.

I'm following her mostly in Amazing Spider Man which seems to be the core story, while she pops up on missions in some of the other books but It would be hard to keep track of her from book to book, besides I'm not sure she has much to do besides being in the chorus.

So she's cool and fun and I like her way better than a lot more than most characters in the uber spider crossover mega event but ..

she seems like a new young sporty band member type Gwen mirror universe of Peter where she traded places with him in history.

She's got an awesome costume. She definitely has more appeal and set up to me for a book on her own than a lot of characters out there. I like how she feels guilt over a certain failure, like Peter, but she's still a good girl and not an edgy former crack addict or something.

It's a good twist on the story and fun. but ... there's a but of some sort ...

I kinda knew I would, too, but there's always that fear when you revisit something you loved that it won't quite measure up. Happy to say that wasn't the case with classic Spidey!



It's interesting that none of ASM made my cut in my 10 favorite runs over on the old Roundtable thread. (Here's the list, btw.) I can't recall how far off any of it was from making it in. That was over five years ago, and looking at it, it would probably be pretty different if I did it again today.



It was very beautiful, detailed and nuanced work. Like I said, there were some latter issues that were noticeably less polished/sketchier than the earlier issues, but all were filled with his great talent.



That's a pretty big statement and not one I can necessarily endorse, but it is absolutely terrific and seminal in Spidey's lore. Everything that makes him great and unique is right there to be seen.



I remember it being a little weird for me when I first read the classic Lee/Ditko issues and seeing that Pete and Betty were an item when their relationship in the modern comics was nothing of the sort. I guess, for me, it's definitely MJ as I was there to experience their marriage right off the racks. That being said, it's exciting for me to see him explore relationships with other women in the current run, even while acknowledging that One More Day was a terrible plot device.



One thing I'd forgotten before the recent re-read was Ned's early proposal to Betty and Pete's desire to marry her as well. Through issue 40, I haven't seen a resolution to the proposal as Betty ran off, but I don't think they actually married until somewhere well into the Conway era, right? So I'm guessing she either turns him down early on, or they just have a really long engagement?

Poor Ned, though. Killed off unceremoniously off-panel (IIRC?) in a Spider-Man/Wolverine one-shot and then later ret-conned as the Hobgoblin because PAD didn't have a better candidate.



Oddly enough, for all the great villains he created that would live on and on, you have some relative losers like the Enforcers, the Looter, the Living Brain and Molten Man that would either fade into obscurity or be C- or D-listers at best.

I'd go a bit further and say that the Scorpion never quite had that certain something that the others did, either right off the bat or later on.



JJJ's amazing and such a crucial part of Spider-man lore. The best thing about the Scorpion story is not that character but how JJJ totally crosses the line in service to his hatred of Spider-Man--and gets away with it! I know many years later, there's a great story that finally forces JJJ to publish a confession. Seems like it was in PPSSM?

Whew! Slott continues writing Amazing & Peter Parker for All-New All-Different Marvel launch!!!

Just saw and came right over to see if you did! Awesome!! I'm so relieved and am looking forward to Marvel's 18th relaunch of ASM! (;))

Hell, so long as I know Peter Parker is still Spider-Man, I'm even considering giving the Miles Morales series a try.

(Also, some interesting other bits going around. No Silver Surfer . Though we probably haven't gotten all the solicits yet. Jason Aaron Dr. Strange might be cool though.)

(Also, just in general, Marvel's new series look even worse than their current batch of ongoing series, which is saying something. For the most part, either the character, premise, writer or artist on a lot of these series just make me think they're going to be mediocre or worse).

I've seen scattershot announcements, here and there. I don't know if the complete lineup has been offered yet. But, yeah, a lot of it looks pretty blah.

I don't know if ASM is keeping the same mixture of artists or what, though. I'm curious as to whom will comprise the other 2/3 of Pete's love triangle..... Maybe Sajani and Anna Maria? Will Silk be in the mix? MJ again? Dare I hope...Carlie Cooper? Hm. Probably one of those, plus someone new, I'd wager.

Y'know, I can't remember if we've talked about it much, but Sajani is such an awesome addition to the cast. (Much like Anna Maria). I kinda hope she never is a love interest for Peter because I like that she is his partner but also continually at odds with him.

I definitely would like it of Carlie showed back up.

Slott has done a great job at keeping it wide open. There are a lot of characters who could play that role--hell, I wouldn't mind seeing Michelle again--but I just feel confident he'll do a great job.

I dunno...sometimes I read her and Pete clashing as having an extra layer of romantic tension, mostly from her side. Like you, I wouldn't mind if Slott doesn't go there. Might be interesting if he did, though.

Michelle? Hm. Quick Wikipedia research shows that she appeared in the era before I returned with Big Time.

I kind of enjoyed the raw sexual attraction between Silk and Pete, even if it was pheremone-based or something. It was, at least, unlike any of his other relationships in its lack of angst.