Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Writers who honestly make you want to drop a book

Pan him all you want for his skills or perceived lack thereof, but when you villify a guy for daring to color outside the lines, that strikes a nerve.

I would never intend to villify someone for daring to color outside the lines. If I've ever come across that way to you, Lardy, then I apologize.

I suppose most people who like what Bendis did to the Avengers would scream, "J'accuse!", at me for condemning it. In that case I argue that it was less of a change in creative direction and more of crass commercial move. I mean, all other things he did aside, the core concept was adding Wolverine and Spider-Man as linchpin members akin to the Big Three for no other reason than to bring blockbuster sales. Well, mission accomplished, I suppose.

In regards to his current artwork style, I don't like it, but I can see what he is trying to do. As for his story telling, I don't think it is so much that he is coloring outside the lines as he does stuff that as someone else mentioned, shows more disdain for the characters than innovation. And I am not talking about having to keep characters as they are. For example (and I know this is going back decades) The Bwha-ha-0ha Justice League. I don't mind a bit of humor in serious comics, but Giffen tried to turn it into a humor book. The Justice League is not and should not be a humor book.

Well said, Quis. To reiterate something I said on the previous page, JLI started out as a refreshing alternative to grim 'n gritty, but the unhinged buffoonery that quickly ensued turned it into something just as bad in its own way.

Actually, Wolverine and Spider-Man was Mark Millar's idea. Marvel let Bendis put Spider-Woman and Luke Cage in the Avengers in exchange for putting the company's two biggest icons in the Avengers. Whether or not that was good is for history to decide. My non-LW friend Matt loves the Bendis era, and I've had some always-civil, always-interesting discussions with him on that.

Well, whoever's idea it was, the motive behind it was clear. Though it's generally good to have Luke and Jessica in the forefront, there's no justifying putting a character who had four ongoings already and another who still maintained his membership in several X-books for any other reason than wanking sales.

Agreed 100%. I only brought it up because I enjoy any chance I get to make Millar look bad.

Okay, this is a bit of a tangent, but essentially we're condemning Keith because he tries different things. One reason that I almost completely shun the Big Two these days is essentially because they so fiercely protect their IP so much as to make the stories stagnant. We know the headliners and most of the supporting players are in no danger, even when they "die" and/or are replaced, so why bother to read? For me, the only reason I would read these now is if they're exceptionally well-crafted, and once they aren't anymore, I drop them.

Giffen and his 5YL creators are criticized on every front by their detractors for what they say are bad storytelling and poor treatment of characters. But the loudest voices say it was too dark and too different from how the book had been.

When the book was relaunched, Baxter/Vol. 3 had been in a downward spiral in sales and quality. Maybe it was Levitz overstaying his welcome. Maybe it was the continuity spike that Crisis had wrought. Or maybe people were just getting bored with the LSH. Whatever the case, it was time for a change. DC could either move forward with the same basic status quo with new creators, or they could do something more radical to change things up. We know which route was taken, for better or worse.

Legion fandom will forever be divided as to its merits, but I applaud Giffen and his collaborators for taking a huge chance that, imo, was respectful as much as it could be to what had gone before without being completely enslaved by it. Dark as it was, it was still the Legion at its heart but moved bravely forward instead of keeping things essentially the same. Ironically, it lasted about five years.

I don't expect everyone to admire Keith. He's certainly more "miss" than "hit" with me, in case anyone's wondering--especially when he doesn't have a strong co-writer. But I applaud his continual determination not to give us the same old-same old crap recycled with a different coating. Pan him all you want for his skills or perceived lack thereof, but when you villify a guy for daring to color outside the lines, that strikes a nerve.

Rick Remender, of Uncanny Avengers and Captain America infamy. He's Marvel's version of Geoff Johns, only worse. Like Johns, he started out with promise, but his writing quickly became more grotesque and self-indulgent. But the reason he's worse than Johns is because Johns at least doesn't publicly insult his critics -- Remender does.

Super hero icons at the apocalypse?

...very Millar-esque.